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Dungeon-noob
2018-09-26, 04:38 AM
I'm not entirely sure if this post is appropriate, but as Roll20 has some users and such on this forum, i thought maybe some people might be interested in hearing about this: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/9iwarj/after_5_years_on_roll20_i_just_cancelled_and

If this isn't okay to post here, apoligies in advance. I just hope some people would be interested to know about this.

Mordaedil
2018-09-26, 05:06 AM
Guy gets banned because account is similarly named to someone else and makes a threat if his account isn't restored.

Do not negotiate with terrorists.

Knaight
2018-09-26, 06:16 AM
It's a disgruntled customer threatening to talk about how the company is terrible. That's not much of a threat, though deciding not to deal with a disgruntled customer's BS and just cut communications with them is something I'm all for in this case.

Togath
2018-09-26, 06:30 AM
Okay, been thinking more about this, why are people even trusting that the banned guy's story is legit? Like, I haven't read/found where this started, but it already sounds like a wonky story, especially with the fact that in every version the dude(the banned guy) threatens and screams and insults people from step 1, rather than, like, something that doesn't escalate a situation from 1 to 11 in a split second.

redwizard007
2018-09-26, 06:57 AM
Synopsis.

Guy got banned from a group he barely used for pretty lame reason, flew off the handle and got dissed by roll20.

Mordaedil
2018-09-26, 07:18 AM
Okay, been thinking more about this, why are people even trusting that the banned guy's story is legit? Like, I haven't read/found where this started, but it already sounds like a wonky story, especially with the fact that in every version the dude(the banned guy) threatens and screams and insults people from step 1, rather than, like, something that doesn't escalate a situation from 1 to 11 in a split second.
Seriously, it reeks of entitlement. And it's worriesome that there's such a lack of critical thinking to lead that many people to downvote the dev.

Also doesn't help that reddit is what it is, I guess.

Aresneo
2018-09-26, 09:45 AM
Okay, been thinking more about this, why are people even trusting that the banned guy's story is legit?

Between the sheer level of documentation provided by the poster and the fact that Roll20 has responded and confirmed the details we know that it is legitimate.

Most of the outrage over this is because Roll20 publicly admitted that they shouldn't have banned the user but decided to leave them banned anyways. The users actions are way more aggressive than they should be but Roll20 could have avoided this with a single reply talking about how they are investigating their claims and will make a decision when they hear back from the Reddit admins like they have admitted they where doing.

Knaight
2018-09-26, 10:00 AM
Between the sheer level of documentation provided by the poster and the fact that Roll20 has responded and confirmed the details we know that it is legitimate.

Most of the outrage over this is because Roll20 publicly admitted that they shouldn't have banned the user but decided to leave them banned anyways. The users actions are way more aggressive than they should be but Roll20 could have avoided this with a single reply talking about how they are investigating their claims and will make a decision when they hear back from the Reddit admins like they have admitted they where doing.

They decided that they shouldn't have banned the user over what they banned them for. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't have subsequently banned them because of his histrionic series of messages, which is why they left the ban.

Not that removing the ban, sending an apology then banning him later, separately, for the messages wouldn't have been funnier.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-09-26, 10:14 AM
Yeah, I'd have upheld the ban, too. The guy's clearly nothing but trouble. I hope he doesn't succeed in mobilising a mob against Roll20...

Hurske
2018-09-26, 10:30 AM
I'm on the guys side because I've had a very bad experience with roll20, in the same vein as the banned guy.

When searching for an online platform several years ago, I was looking at both roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, one of my group mates, went on roll20 forum and asked about some comparisons, and he was outright banned. That sealed the deal for me, and never used roll20 because of it.

Delta
2018-09-26, 10:31 AM
Yeah, I'd have upheld the ban, too. The guy's clearly nothing but trouble. I hope he doesn't succeed in mobilising a mob against Roll20...

This.

His conversation with Nolan was alright, but after not receiving an answer for 24 hours (and we have no idea if he really waited that long) he immediately escalated to writing to customer support (which he had no contact with up until this point) essentially "Hey, your moron moderator banned me, if you don't unban me and have him apologize to me, I'll quit!" that's just not a way to begin a communication with any kind of customer support if you're actually interested in solving the matter, and then he began spamming both the moderator queue and customer support because he didn't get an immediate answer.

The first ban might have been in error, but the guy really did nothing to help his case here.

Malphegor
2018-09-26, 01:02 PM
Having read through it, it seems like there’s issues on both sides. Roll20 need to nominate a community moderator for social media presence who is not employed by them I think. The guy needs to hold off on escalation.

It does amuse me that there’s already people on reddit thinking this is more than a drop in the pond for profits for Roll20- it seems to be a mainly Reddit and Facebook thing, and without more people being interested quickly, this will be forgotten in a few weeks.

Mordaedil
2018-09-27, 01:12 AM
I'm on the guys side because I've had a very bad experience with roll20, in the same vein as the banned guy.

When searching for an online platform several years ago, I was looking at both roll20 and Fantasy Grounds, one of my group mates, went on roll20 forum and asked about some comparisons, and he was outright banned. That sealed the deal for me, and never used roll20 because of it.

They don't outright ban for just asking questions or comparisons, I'm pretty sure your friend is leaving things out to make himself look better if that's the case.

LordEntrails
2018-09-27, 02:00 AM
Between the sheer level of documentation provided by the poster and the fact that Roll20 has responded and confirmed the details we know that it is legitimate.

Most of the outrage over this is because Roll20 publicly admitted that they shouldn't have banned the user but decided to leave them banned anyways. The users actions are way more aggressive than they should be but Roll20 could have avoided this with a single reply talking about how they are investigating their claims and will make a decision when they hear back from the Reddit admins like they have admitted they where doing.
^^^ is correct. Nolan did lots of things wrong in this case. And their are numerous other cases that are documented (and now many of them are being publized on YouTube etc) that this is not the only problem Nolan has. He actually gave an interview at CyberSmiles a few years ago saying he "used to" cyber bully. Old habits die hard...


Yeah, I'd have upheld the ban, too. The guy's clearly nothing but trouble. I hope he doesn't succeed in mobilising a mob against Roll20...
40k+ downvotes on Nolan not-apology. Already done.


They don't outright ban for just asking questions or comparisons, I'm pretty sure your friend is leaving things out to make himself look better if that's the case.
Yes they do. I know three people who have personally had that happen to them with no warnings, positive post histories, etc. This is not some isolated case. This is SOP for Roll20. For those who have watched them closely for years, it's not new behavior.

Mordaedil
2018-09-27, 02:33 AM
Excuse me if I don't outright buy that.

EDIT: Following this story on both reddit and Roll20 forums, there are now being posted videos that are extremely suspicious in their timing on the issue loaded with false information and lies meant to capitalize on the current event, so take anything posted today or later with a huge grain of salt.

Delta
2018-09-27, 03:21 AM
Yes they do. I know three people who have personally had that happen to them with no warnings, positive post histories, etc. This is not some isolated case. This is SOP for Roll20. For those who have watched them closely for years, it's not new behavior.

My problem with the case as described by the poster himself to me sounds very much like he wanted this result. From this point on


I received no response for a day. I got more upset.

his behaviour to me very much gives the impression of someone who wanted to get himself banned (or rather, stay banned), who wanted to make this public as the wronged party to drag Roll20 through the mud, so I'll take everything he says with a big grain of salt. He did everything "right" at first to be able to claim being the one who wanted to solve this peacefully, and then at some point immediately escalated it to DEFCON 1 by spamming both the moderator queue and customer support with rather angry mails, which everyone familiar with how the internet works should know is not a good way to act if you actually want to get unbanned.

Mordaedil
2018-09-27, 03:25 AM
I also tend to give people a bit more courtesy than to expect my complaints to be resolved within 24 hours. Heck, if it is a weekend, I'll be happy if I get it resolved by Monday evening at earliest.

SaintRidley
2018-09-27, 09:48 PM
I feel like if you think that a customer complaining about poor customer service and telling others about their bad experience is a threat to your staff's livelihood and equivalent to attempting to burning the store down, you don't have any business running a business and you've ceded all credibility.

LordEntrails
2018-09-27, 10:59 PM
My problem with the case as described by the poster himself to me sounds very much like he wanted this result. From this point on
...
his behaviour to me very much gives the impression of someone who wanted to get himself banned (or rather, stay banned), who wanted to make this public as the wronged party to drag Roll20 through the mud, so I'll take everything he says with a big grain of salt. He did everything "right" at first to be able to claim being the one who wanted to solve this peacefully, and then at some point immediately escalated it to DEFCON 1 by spamming both the moderator queue and customer support with rather angry mails, which everyone familiar with how the internet works should know is not a good way to act if you actually want to get unbanned.

As I think I said upthread, to me it's not about this one case. This one case is just one data point. The motivations of this one person isn't really relevant. It blowing up this time isn't really relevant. As I was quoted, this is well known behavior by Nolan. He even admits in an interview years ago with cybersmiles about cyber bullying that he has a problem with acting poorly on the internet. These types of bans and over-reactions that are then admitted as such, but not apologized for and are continued because the person was making a scene, or was (enter excuse) is something that happens by Roll20 staff and Nolan on a VERY regular basis.

This wouldn't have blown up, imo, unless their were other people who said, "hey, that happened to me", or "I saw that happen when" and said finally, this is enough.


I also tend to give people a bit more courtesy than to expect my complaints to be resolved within 24 hours. Heck, if it is a weekend, I'll be happy if I get it resolved by Monday evening at earliest.
I personally agree. But then again I've gotten complaints from customers who haven't gotten responses within 10 minutes! But the behavior was still wrong, and the response was even worse. (But again, if it had only been a single occurrence...)

Mutazoia
2018-09-27, 11:26 PM
If I had a dime for every customer in my workplace who threw a tantrum, threatened to post bad reviews and never come back again....only to see them back the next week like nothing ever happened, I could buy Bill Gates with pocket change.

I would be willing to bet even money that most of those "down votes" are people who, until just that moment, had never even heard of Roll20, and were just gut reacting to some some random guys "woe-is-me" story. People these days, especially on line, seem to get most of their exercise from jumping to conclusions with very little else to go on than a sob story. Fox News makes its bread and butter on these kinds of people.....

But what it all, basically, boils down to is the fact that Roll20 is a private business, that is free to join. Membership costs nothing...you get banned, your out exactly **** all. Not a sausage.

So some poor schmuck got banned for having a bad attitude. Poor schmuck. Better luck next time. Grow up and get a life. If you are so unstable that you have to go this postal over getting banned from one website, you REALLY don't need to be running around in general population. Have a coke, and a smile while you wait for the nice guys in the white coats to bring you your jacket with the sleeves that wrap around the back.

Delta
2018-09-28, 02:49 AM
But what it all, basically, boils down to is the fact that Roll20 is a private business, that is free to join. Membership costs nothing...you get banned, your out exactly **** all. Not a sausage.

I think it's worth pointing out that this is not about anyone being banned from Roll20, that didn't happen. He got banned from the Roll20 subreddit, big difference.

Segev
2018-09-28, 12:36 PM
Assuming we take the one-sided presentation's word for it (and he does provide a lot of documentation), I think the "we're upholding the ban because you showed that you're angry about it" response is problematic. Yes, his response was an over-reaction. But he hardly disrupted their communities by contacting them through appropriate channels and attempting to go over the head of the guy he felt was abusing his power. Perhaps he should have been less quick to maintain his level of ire as he elevated his complaint up their ladder of customer support, but...really? Customers are going to be more angry the higher they go in the hierarchy, because they've been dealing with the same problem with no solution. If your customer support is that thin skinned at that level, you have a problem.

It also sounds like this "Nolan" fellow is a detriment to their service, and probably should be replaced.

Speaking purely from the perspective of handling customer service, Roll20 looks like they need to reexamine their staff and training.

Enixon
2018-09-28, 12:40 PM
Yeah, I'd have upheld the ban, too. The guy's clearly nothing but trouble. I hope he doesn't succeed in mobilising a mob against Roll20...


If what I've seen on r/rpg is any indicator "too late" :smallfrown:

Naturally anyone that points out the customer's awful behavior might just be a contributing factor to the ban being upheld, or even suggests "hey maybe this isn't worth a lynch mob" gets downvoted into oblivion.

War_lord
2018-09-29, 07:09 AM
It's the usual internet outrage storm in a teacup that'll burn itself out once people get bored of drama and memes.

Roll20 is a private company, with a few legal exceptions that don't apply here they can ban whoever they want, from whatever space they want (yes, that includes their subreddit), for whatever reason they want. Don't like it? Don't use roll20. Like hey, Rich Burlew could wake up tomorrow, read some of my posts and decide to ban me because he doesn't like my attitude. Guess what, it's his forum, he has the right to do that. If I turned up demanding to be unbanned because I spent X amount of years here, I'd be laughed out. And since it was a reddit ban, it's not like the troll in question has actually been denied any meaningful assets.

It's not going to effect Roll20's bottom line, it's just yet another case of reddit being full of people who think reddit is the center of the universe.

Anxe
2018-09-29, 09:51 AM
The subreddit got a new moderation team in response to this (or in response to the community response to this). They're going to write new community guidelines and hopefully have all the issues for fastbans on stuff as small as comparisons go away.

Negative event brings positive change?

LordEntrails
2018-09-29, 02:55 PM
But what it all, basically, boils down to is the fact that Roll20 is a private business, that is free to join. Membership costs nothing...you get banned, your out exactly **** all. Not a sausage.
Yea, no. That's not really what it boils down to and just one of the errors in your logic.
The user in question did NOT have a free account, he had a paid account that he had paid a subscription to for years and he had purchased other content that was locked to the platform. Meaning if he had gotten banned from the service (which was threatened) he would have lost a measurable amount of money.



It also sounds like this "Nolan" fellow is a detriment to their service, and probably should be replaced.
He's a co-founder, so yea, not so easy to replace him. But then again, he shouldn't be doing tier 1 customer service either.



Negative event brings positive change?
There are signs that at least in the subreddit positive change is already occurring. i.e. people are posting improvement suggestions that they had posted before but had been deleted by the former mods.

For instance (https://www.reddit.com/r/Roll20/comments/9jx5mx/roll20_enhancement_suite_browser_extension/);

Reposting this with the hope it wont get taken down again thanks to a change in mods.
I've been working on this browser extension....



It's not going to effect Roll20's bottom line, it's just yet another case of reddit being full of people who think reddit is the center of the universe.
I disagree with that assumption. The question to me is will it be a blip or will it be a financial set back?

Hand_of_Vecna
2018-09-30, 07:10 AM
He's a co-founder, so yea, not so easy to replace him. But then again, he shouldn't be doing tier 1 customer service either.

I agree, further he wasn't a regular r/roll20 user and probably expected to be dealing with peers rather than high level employees. None of the gaming subreddits I've posted to were run by the owners of the game. It looks like his first post was griping rather than a request for a customer service fix.

Mordaedil
2018-09-30, 08:52 AM
Yea, no. That's not really what it boils down to and just one of the errors in your logic.
The user in question did NOT have a free account, he had a paid account that he had paid a subscription to for years and he had purchased other content that was locked to the platform. Meaning if he had gotten banned from the service (which was threatened) he would have lost a measurable amount of money.


Again, he wasn't banned from roll20, he was banned from the reddit. Deleting his account because he was banned from the reddit is like burning down your house because your mail got to the wrong address. It's really disproportional action to what happened. A ban is like a slap on the wrist. People really need to grow thicker skins about these sort of things.

Segev
2018-09-30, 09:37 AM
Again, he wasn't banned from roll20, he was banned from the reddit. Deleting his account because he was banned from the reddit is like burning down your house because your mail got to the wrong address. It's really disproportional action to what happened. A ban is like a slap on the wrist. People really need to grow thicker skins about these sort of things.

While it still may be an overreaction, it's more akin to getting your mail sent to the wrong address, and then, when you ask the post office to correct the mistake, being told that they suspect you of identity theft and are going to call the FBI if you bother them about this again.

Then, when he proves he's not committing identity theft, they say that they're still refusing to send him mail because they've decided that his response to their accusation of identity theft and threat to go to the FBI was too hostile to allow their postal employees to come to his house.

Is it any wonder he decides to stop using the post office?

Again: he wasn't an angel in this. He got angry, and overreacted in a number of ways, but they're understandable ways. And the company behaved very unprofessionally. Most customer service people I know would have been thrilled at how little swearing and threats of violence were present in this exchange, and would have been expected to maintain a much more customer-satisfaction mindset even in the face of much worse behavior. This is not good customer service by Roll20. This is more the behavior of an ingroup feeling attacked by an outgroup they sometimes forget they have to tolerate.

Mordaedil
2018-09-30, 03:49 PM
Holy crap, that isn't anything like what happened. Sergev, what planet are you reading this from? The subreddit has no follow-up consequences for what happens in Roll20. They are not connected by anything but name. They aren't even a service they are offering, it's a place for discussion and what happens there has none, zero consequence for what happens on the roll20 side of things. If this happened on roll20, I'd agree that it's a ****ty practice, but it only happened on the subreddit.

The only reason there's even an issue is because the Roll20 has people working on moderating the reddit forum, they made a mistake, they were going to correct his mistake, but he acted like he was entitled about it, so the ban stayed. He then decided to cut ties with roll20 because he didn't get his way of getting an apology, which he didn't deserve to begin with.

It's entitled, it's childish and it's not something companies have to answer to, IMO.

Segev
2018-09-30, 10:05 PM
Holy crap, that isn't anything like what happened. Sergev, what planet are you reading this from? The subreddit has no follow-up consequences for what happens in Roll20. They are not connected by anything but name. They aren't even a service they are offering, it's a place for discussion and what happens there has none, zero consequence for what happens on the roll20 side of things. If this happened on roll20, I'd agree that it's a ****ty practice, but it only happened on the subreddit.

The only reason there's even an issue is because the Roll20 has people working on moderating the reddit forum, they made a mistake, they were going to correct his mistake, but he acted like he was entitled about it, so the ban stayed. He then decided to cut ties with roll20 because he didn't get his way of getting an apology, which he didn't deserve to begin with.

It's entitled, it's childish and it's not something companies have to answer to, IMO.

The fear was due to the fact that using a second screen name to work around a ban is an offense that can be escalated to the whole of Reddit, by my understanding. So he was understandably concerned by the accusation, especially when Nolan (if I read it right) insinuated that if he didn't stop asking for the ban to be lifted, he'd elevate it to the Reddit mods (by saying, essentially, "be grateful I didn't").

But he didn't act "entitled." He elevated it to people over Nolan's head,after Nolan made him mad by refusing to respond to him.

Your argument is, essentially, "What? You dare be mad that we accused you of something you didn't do, and ask that we correct it? How entitled! Sure, you're right, you're innocent, but the fact you DARED to be upset that you couldn't get anybody to listen to you without escalating proves you should be banned anyway!"

If you're accused of doing something you didn't do, and when you deny it, you're told that they might have discovered you were innocent, since you insisted, but since you insisted, it proves you're still a terrible person who may as well be guilty, wouldn't you be a little bit irate?


I do get it. Subreddits aren't a big deal. It was not worth this level of ire. But that doesn't change that Roll20's response was bad enough that people did deserve reprimand or even job transfers over it.

The Random NPC
2018-10-01, 01:11 AM
The fear was due to the fact that using a second screen name to work around a ban is an offense that can be escalated to the whole of Reddit, by my understanding. So he was understandably concerned by the accusation, especially when Nolan (if I read it right) insinuated that if he didn't stop asking for the ban to be lifted, he'd elevate it to the Reddit mods (by saying, essentially, "be grateful I didn't").

But he didn't act "entitled." He elevated it to people over Nolan's head,after Nolan made him mad by refusing to respond to him.

Your argument is, essentially, "What? You dare be mad that we accused you of something you didn't do, and ask that we correct it? How entitled! Sure, you're right, you're innocent, but the fact you DARED to be upset that you couldn't get anybody to listen to you without escalating proves you should be banned anyway!"

If you're accused of doing something you didn't do, and when you deny it, you're told that they might have discovered you were innocent, since you insisted, but since you insisted, it proves you're still a terrible person who may as well be guilty, wouldn't you be a little bit irate?


I do get it. Subreddits aren't a big deal. It was not worth this level of ire. But that doesn't change that Roll20's response was bad enough that people did deserve reprimand or even job transfers over it.

But he didn't just insist that they investigate, he also threatened to tell everyone that they were corrupt.

Delta
2018-10-01, 05:53 AM
But he didn't act "entitled." He elevated it to people over Nolan's head,after Nolan made him mad by refusing to respond to him.

One has nothing to do with the other. Yes, he went over Nolan's head, and I can fully understand that given Nolan's reaction and reputation.

But the mail he wrote to roll20 support was totally entitled. He could've written "Hey, sorry to bother you, but your reddit mod banned me, and now he's not responding, could you please take a look at this? I didn't do anything, seriously, here, look at my links." But he didn't do that. He didn't ask for what he was actually entitled to, which would've been an objective review of his case and Nolan's behaviour by roll20 support (and maybe give them more than 5 minutes time to do so...), but instead asked for an immediate unban and an apology, that's the textbook definition of entitlement.

Customer support at this point has absolutely no clue who this guy is or what he has or hasn't done, that request is completely unreasonable at this point.

Mordaedil
2018-10-01, 06:14 AM
The fear was due to the fact that using a second screen name to work around a ban is an offense that can be escalated to the whole of Reddit, by my understanding. So he was understandably concerned by the accusation, especially when Nolan (if I read it right) insinuated that if he didn't stop asking for the ban to be lifted, he'd elevate it to the Reddit mods (by saying, essentially, "be grateful I didn't").
No, the reddit mods don't actually have greater authority in this case and no such threat was issued.



But he didn't act "entitled." He elevated it to people over Nolan's head,after Nolan made him mad by refusing to respond to him.
Entitled just means he believes he is owed something in this case, a public apology from Nolan (which no head of a company will agree to do over a single ban, are you kidding me?). The entire situation could have been circumvented if he kept his cool and failing to do so is on him, sadly, not on the company he's got an issue with. They have a life outside of working hours too.



Your argument is, essentially, "What? You dare be mad that we accused you of something you didn't do, and ask that we correct it? How entitled! Sure, you're right, you're innocent, but the fact you DARED to be upset that you couldn't get anybody to listen to you without escalating proves you should be banned anyway!"
No, I don't have a problem with him asking they correct that or them moving to correct that. That is what should have happened. His entitlement comes from described above and only waiting 24 hours. Please don't move the goalposts here.



If you're accused of doing something you didn't do, and when you deny it, you're told that they might have discovered you were innocent, since you insisted, but since you insisted, it proves you're still a terrible person who may as well be guilty, wouldn't you be a little bit irate?
I would say "it's understandable given how close our usernames were to one another, but I'm glad we got it sorted at last :)". Maybe I'd be a bit angry, but I wouldn't expect a public apology or instant communication to resolve a reddit ban.



I do get it. Subreddits aren't a big deal. It was not worth this level of ire. But that doesn't change that Roll20's response was bad enough that people did deserve reprimand or even job transfers over it.
Really, what the heck? People should lose jobs over this in your opinion? In this economy? Are you nuts?

Scripten
2018-10-01, 07:43 AM
Really, what the heck? People should lose jobs over this in your opinion? In this economy? Are you nuts?

This is a bit of an overreaction to Segev's point. He said, specifically, reprimands or a job transfer, which implies that the person getting the transfer stays employed but moves around the company to a non-customer facing role.

Segev
2018-10-01, 10:19 AM
But he didn't just insist that they investigate, he also threatened to tell everyone that they were corrupt.You don't actually know anybody who works Customer Service, do you.

That's nothing. Hyperbole is common, especially with customers who are clearly coming at you, despite this being the first time you've heard it, after having been frustrated by trying (and failing) to deal with other parts of your company.

"I'm sorry to hear that, Sir. I apologize, but I am only just now being informed of your case. Could you please explain to me what happened, so we can try to resolve this for you?" is practically boilerplate. The whole job of Customer Service in the first exchange is to de-escalate the customer's ire to the point that they can try to help.

(I have not worked Customer Service, but I have been that (embarrassingly) irate customer, and most distressingly, been assured I was 'comparatively polite.' Now, maybe Customer Service was being flattering, but even if so, contrast that with the belligerent response Roll20's Customer Service gave this guy.)

If there really was concern over him abusing their subreddit due to his reaction, the diplomatic response would have been something about looking into it, and assuring him that they understand his anger, and explaining what they can do. Including that they won't force a public apology, but that they'll remove the ban and perhaps offer a private apology. They may also firmly re-iterate their use policies so that it's clear that any expression of his anger in the subreddit could result in a new ban for THAT behavior.

Instead, they reacted ... well, like people who want nothing but praise and adulation to be directed their way, and feel entitled (which - admittedly - they are as a private business) to scorn and dismiss any who they don't want to hear from. It may not be wise business practice, but they ARE entitled to do it.


One has nothing to do with the other. Yes, he went over Nolan's head, and I can fully understand that given Nolan's reaction and reputation.

But the mail he wrote to roll20 support was totally entitled. He could've written "Hey, sorry to bother you, but your reddit mod banned me, and now he's not responding, could you please take a look at this? I didn't do anything, seriously, here, look at my links." But he didn't do that. He didn't ask for what he was actually entitled to, which would've been an objective review of his case and Nolan's behaviour by roll20 support (and maybe give them more than 5 minutes time to do so...), but instead asked for an immediate unban and an apology, that's the textbook definition of entitlement.

Customer support at this point has absolutely no clue who this guy is or what he has or hasn't done, that request is completely unreasonable at this point.See above. Their job is to find out who he is and why he's gotten that mad. At least to make a small effort at de-escalating to see if he can be mollified by some boilerplate "let us help you, please, Sir." Most customers are pretty irked if they're going to Customer Service to complain about a problem. They may or may not be justified, but assuming all of them are unacceptable as customers just because they're angry by the time they contact you is stupid as a business.

Heck, he demonstrated, if not a cool head, at least a very methodical approach that suggests he's able to be reasoned with. His demands were over the top, but negotiation by offering what they CAN do is part of their job, as well. "Nope, you're obviously angry, and justifiably so even if a bit excessively so, and we don't want customers who get mad when somebody on our team treats them poorly," is childish. Or at least unprofessional.


This is a bit of an overreaction to Segev's point. He said, specifically, reprimands or a job transfer, which implies that the person getting the transfer stays employed but moves around the company to a non-customer facing role.
Indeed.

Though, "this economy" is booming, at least in the Midwest and Texas. Is it really that slow on the West Coast or wherever Roll20 is? Jobs are NOT hard to come by right now where I live. Not that I was advocating firing somebody; as Scripten said, I just think Nolan and one or two others involved in this might be better serving Roll20 in a position that doesn't have to deal with potentially-upset customers.

Max_Killjoy
2018-10-01, 10:29 AM
Sadly, NolanT doesn't come across as shockingly worse than most "moderators" in most modern online venues.

Rhedyn
2018-10-01, 10:33 AM
I do not understand taking Roll20's side because the customer was mad about being treated poorly and "threatened" to do exactly what customers that are treated poorly do.

My only criticism of the customer is that he wasted far too much life energy and money (he was a paying member) on a company that clearly does not deserve it.

Roll20 is great for being free, but I see no reason to ever pay for it. If I was ever going to really get into online RPGing again, I would go with something more premium like Fantasy Grounds or a Table-Top simulator hack (I want to try VR table-topping if that ever becomes a thing)

Segev
2018-10-01, 11:27 AM
Table-top Simulator is pretty cool, but it is a PAIN to set up the board initially for custom RPG stuff. The tools and pieces are there, but it's clumsier than IRL, and still has physics (which is a selling-point, but...) which can mean a mistake can lead to toppling things. You have to build it like you would IRL.

It's fun and neat, but it's more trouble than other, simpler ways of representing battlemaps online. Gametable is older and has its own clunk, but is cleaner and easier and is free.


But if you want to play some of your favorite board games with friends online, Tabletop Simulator is great.

LordEntrails
2018-10-01, 02:59 PM
Several of you don't apparently understand one thing about the situation, and I'm not sure the Reddit OP did either at the time, at the time of the situation; the moderators of the sub-reddit are exactly the same person/people who answer the Roll20 support emails. AND NolanT is one of the co-founders and managing partner.

So, by complaining to Roll20 about the moderator's actions, the OP was complaining to NolanT about the behavior of NolanT and simple put, their was no going over NolanT's head, because he was the top of the management chain.

Max_Killjoy
2018-10-01, 03:06 PM
Several of you don't apparently understand one thing about the situation, and I'm not sure the Reddit OP did either at the time, at the time of the situation; the moderators of the sub-reddit are exactly the same person/people who answer the Roll20 support emails. AND NolanT is one of the co-founders and managing partner.

So, by complaining to Roll20 about the moderator's actions, the OP was complaining to NolanT about the behavior of NolanT and simple put, their was no going over NolanT's head, because he was the top of the management chain.

And that in and of itself is a problem.

Had the same thing happen with the SWTOR forums -- they had a huge and blatant bias in terms of what their moderators would act on, with posters who consistently gave glowing praise to the game and every dev decision allowed to openly abuse, insult, and belittle other posters. When I complained about the moderating, the person who read the email at customer service was also one of the moderators, and they banned me for life from their forums. At that point I'd have needed to go to an EA VP or something for even a chance to resolve it, and it wasn't worth it (this was after KOTFE and KOTET had pretty much ruined the game anyway).

Enixon
2018-10-01, 03:39 PM
Frankly, I just have to say, it does my heart good to see a company not cave in to a customer throwing a fit. I work retail and the worse part of the job by far, is day in and day out seeing people act like school yard bullies and then be rewarded for their terrible behavior.

It sucks that the guy was banned over a mistaken identity but as far as I'm concerned his actions after sure as heck made it so he deserves it now.


If people stopped jumping to the defense of bullies like him just to take cheap shots at the big bad business boogeyman maybe people in general wouldn't be so terrible to each other becasue they wouldn't constantly be getting rewarded for treating people in the service industry as less than human.

Rhedyn
2018-10-01, 03:49 PM
It sucks that the guy was banned over a mistaken identity but as far as I'm concerned his actions after sure as heck made it so he deserves it now.
I consider this a kind of new-age bullying. People do not stop being the wronged party because of separate actions.

"How dare that guy be upset for being mistreated!"

The Random NPC
2018-10-01, 08:38 PM
I do not understand taking Roll20's side because the customer was mad about being treated poorly and "threatened" to do exactly what customers that are treated poorly do.

My only criticism of the customer is that he wasted far too much life energy and money (he was a paying member) on a company that clearly does not deserve it.

Roll20 is great for being free, but I see no reason to ever pay for it. If I was ever going to really get into online RPGing again, I would go with something more premium like Fantasy Grounds or a Table-Top simulator hack (I want to try VR table-topping if that ever becomes a thing)

As far as I can tell, at the time of the complaint he didn't know that NolanT was in any way affiliated with Roll20 except as the moderator of their subreddit. So he was threatening a company over the actions of some tangential group, one that he admitted that he used twice. If he hadn't gotten the notice that he was banned, it's likely that he wouldn't have found out he was for years so his reaction was over the top and out of line. Now all that being said, I do believe that Roll20's actions were beyond the pale, I just also think that ApostleO was entitled, aggressive, and overall someone you probably don't want to associate with.

Mordaedil
2018-10-02, 01:17 AM
This is a bit of an overreaction to Segev's point. He said, specifically, reprimands or a job transfer, which implies that the person getting the transfer stays employed but moves around the company to a non-customer facing role.
Ah, my mistake. I'm sorry Segev, I misinterpreted what you meant.

As for the economy question, world-wide we're entering a new recession and seeing a lot of job openings isn't necessarily indicative of a healthy marketplace for jobs. In fact, it might be an indicator for the opposite.


I consider this a kind of new-age bullying. People do not stop being the wronged party because of separate actions.

"How dare that guy be upset for being mistreated!"
Really now. I hadn't a clue that moderating my community, back when I was a forum admin of a certain website was "bullying", but there you go, I guess.

I realize it isn't quite that cut dry and clear in this case, the guy was wrongfully banned in the first place, but I don't see how it inconvienced him much. Technically speaking, it is outside the service of what they provide as a company, so it's even a matter completely unrelated. If this took entirely place on roll20 and the forums there, I'd be more willing to stand behind the user in this case.

But because it was on reddit my reaction is, quite literally, "who gives a hoot."

Rhedyn
2018-10-02, 06:22 AM
I realize it isn't quite that cut dry and clear in this case, the guy was wrongfully banned in the first place, but I don't see how it inconvienced him much. Technically speaking, it is outside the service of what they provide as a company, so it's even a matter completely unrelated. If this took entirely place on roll20 and the forums there, I'd be more willing to stand behind the user in this case.

But because it was on reddit my reaction is, quite literally, "who gives a hoot."I'm trying to follow the logic of where roll20s bad actions can be justified away but the customers aggressive tone makes him the bad guy in this situation.

Delta
2018-10-02, 07:01 AM
I consider this a kind of new-age bullying. People do not stop being the wronged party because of separate actions.

"How dare that guy be upset for being mistreated!"

And being the wronged party does not absolve him of the consequences of his actions. If he had written them a reasonable request and given them some time to process it and then started escalating afterwards, that would be a completely different matter.

Rhedyn
2018-10-02, 07:06 AM
And being the wronged party does not absolve him of the consequences of his actions. If he had written them a reasonable request and given them some time to process it and then started escalating afterwards, that would be a completely different matter.
Actions?

You are complaining about his tone not his actions. He didn't do anything to Roll20.

16bearswutIdo
2018-10-02, 07:35 AM
The customer is definitely in the right here. He was wrongfully banned, explained the situation to CS, didn't hear back, and then told CS that he would tell people what happened. The guy who banned him decided to keep him banned to try to keep him quiet, even after learning that the ban was in the wrong.

This is exactly why most companies don't mod their own subreddits, and why the mod team was removed.

LordEntrails
2018-10-02, 11:35 AM
If people stopped jumping to the defense of bullies like him just to take cheap shots at the big bad business boogeyman maybe people in general wouldn't be so terrible to each other becasue they wouldn't constantly be getting rewarded for treating people in the service industry as less than human.
You do know that NolanT, the moderator and co-founder of Roll20 is an self-admitted cyber bully? That he admits;


There was also a period where I contributed to online toxicity...


As both someone who formerly crossed boundaries and has experienced online harassment, I’ve had to change the emphasis I put on social media – stopping myself from reacting to abusers or from imagining that all discussion online revolves around me. (emphasis mine)

- https://www.cybersmile.org/blog/roll20-founder-nolan-t-jones-talks-about-online-abuse-and-roll20con

Obviously he has forgotten what he said he had once learned.

2D8HP
2018-10-02, 04:55 PM
....Though, "this economy" is booming, at least in the Midwest and Texas. Is it really that slow on the West Coast or wherever Roll20 is? Jobs are NOT hard to come by right now where I live. Not that I was advocating firing somebody; as Scripten said, I just think Nolan and one or two others involved in this might be better serving Roll20 in a position that doesn't have to deal with potentially-upset customers.


I work in San Francisco and finding a job is as easy as it's ever been in my lifetime, maybe easier than ever.

Finding a job that pays enough to make rent near work though is another matter

Deophaun
2018-10-02, 05:09 PM
(I have not worked Customer Service, but I have been that (embarrassingly) irate customer, and most distressingly, been assured I was 'comparatively polite.' Now, maybe Customer Service was being flattering, but even if so, contrast that with the belligerent response Roll20's Customer Service gave this guy.)
I've long since started putting a preface to all my interactions with people working the service desk:

"I want to say before we begin that I hold no ill-will towards you, believe you are a wonderful person, and wish you nothing but the best. Now. WHAT THE HOLY BLUE @#$#@ iS THE PROBLEM WITH THE @#$#@$!@ @#$#@% WHO @#$#@$%# THE !#@$#$@ !@#$#@$@!"

They've all been great people by which to be told "we appreciate your issue but our company policy is for you to go @#$@$ yourself."

Anonymouswizard
2018-10-02, 05:38 PM
Sadly, NolanT doesn't come across as shockingly worse than most "moderators" in most modern online venues.

I have to agree. One thing I love about GiantITP is that when a moderator made a decision I originally thought was stupid and a supression of opinion the moderator was willing to talk with me and explain that the part I really wanted in the thread was fine by forum rules but the rest was considered out of line (culture clash stuff, to me this sort of stuff was an academic issue but it's important in the US). I ended up not reposting it because life got in the way, but it was good that the moderator was willing to clarify that I could post it.

Delta
2018-10-02, 06:33 PM
Actions?

You are complaining about his tone not his actions. He didn't do anything to Roll20.

Um, I have very much "complained" about his actions. As a matter of fact, I have not complained at all. I have pointed out that a) to me, the story reads as if this was exactly the result he wanted, b) his reaction was very much entitled and c) he was banned for spamming customer support and mod queues with angry demands and ultimatums, that's very much an action.

If there's anything I'd complain about, it's what's happening now which to me looks pretty much ridiculous, regardless of who you think is right or wrong.

Max_Killjoy
2018-10-03, 08:36 AM
I work in San Francisco and finding a job is as easy as it's ever been in my lifetime, maybe easier than ever.

Finding a job that pays enough to make rent near work though is another matter

Well, last I heard, a family of four in that area has to make more than $140000/yr just to get out of the "low income" bracket. Compare that to where I am, where at that income a family of four could save enough in a few years to buy a house on very good terms (large down payment and shorter mortgage if they wanted).

In other words "the economy" isn't really one big monolith... and many of the "fixes" that would be band-aides in some places would be like throwing a grenade in the works other places, inside the same country.

And past that, I doubt we'd be able to discuss here, so I apologize in advance if I don't respond to any replies on the matter.

Mordaedil
2018-10-03, 10:14 AM
Also I gotta say I hate these snipe posters who just post a thread they assume will become controversial in hopes of driving up support for their cause, which is what I suspected this was to begin with. I hope nobody changed their minds about Roll20 just based on this thread, cause this is really ****ty way of doing things.

Rhedyn
2018-10-03, 10:24 AM
Also I gotta say I hate these snipe posters who just post a thread they assume will become controversial in hopes of driving up support for their cause, which is what I suspected this was to begin with. I hope nobody changed their minds about Roll20 just based on this thread, cause this is really ****ty way of doing things.If you are pro corporate mistreating customers then driving up outrage is "****ty".

Roll20 has done nothing to earn my loyalty like that.

Segev
2018-10-03, 12:54 PM
As a pro-business conservative, I often find myself defending business decisions in conversations where people who are not familiar with the needs and realities of marketplaces assume malice when it's really a resource shortage issue (and other, similar things). I say this to establish that I find it weird to be accused of being anti-business, or that people think I'm framing this as "evil big business vs. a nice guy" or what-have-you.

I just look at the way this is told, and, if the guy telling it is not lying, I don't see him as being any worse than what Customer Service has to deal with on average. I also think that Roll20 handled it in a fashion that demonstrates their Customer Service department needs replacement, or at least retraining.

From an objective standpoint, the reasoning given for the ban is flawed enough to warrant a lifting, and the reasoning for continuing it DOES amount to, "You got upset that we didn't respond to you in a timely fashion over a legitimate complaint, and over being mistreated by a moderator." This is objectively not the behavior of a healthy moderating staff or policy.

Given this guy's behavior in this matter, Roll20's response was bad business practice, and hints at a greater culture of poor business decision-making underneath, much like a bit of mold growing around a screw in your drywall might indicate some much worse problems hidden behind.

LordEntrails
2018-10-03, 01:44 PM
... This is objectively not the behavior of a healthy moderating staff or policy.

Given this guy's behavior in this matter, Roll20's response was bad business practice, and hints at a greater culture of poor business decision-making underneath, much like a bit of mold growing around a screw in your drywall might indicate some much worse problems hidden behind.
Agreed. And to add, if this was a one-time event, I also don't think anything would have come from the reddit "complaint".

But, there are now dozens or hundreds of others who have come forward with similar stories of poor treatment from Roll20 to it's customers. Most are not as well documented and of course their is the possibility that they are lies, but many are from people with reliable reputations. And their are also now emerging stories of other unprofessional dealings with NolanT.

In short, my opinion is that this one complaint was simply one example of a culture built by Nolan among the Roll20 staff that was not customer based or welcoming to anyone with a different perspective. Just the straw that broke the camel's back.

Mutazoia
2018-10-04, 11:27 PM
From an objective standpoint, the reasoning given for the ban is flawed enough to warrant a lifting, and the reasoning for continuing it DOES amount to, "You got upset that we didn't respond to you in a timely fashion over a legitimate complaint, and over being mistreated by a moderator." This is objectively not the behavior of a healthy moderating staff or policy.

I'm not too sure about this. Mail bombing customer service for hours on end is not stable behavior by any definition of the word. Maybe if Roll20 had hundreds of CS reps on staff, then, possibly, you could expect a response in a few hours. Maybe. On a quiet day. If a founder is doing Customer support, you can bet your digital arse that they don't have a huge staff. So....say we guess a CS staff of 3 of 4? Handling a lot of matters besides this one.... I would expect a delay of 24 to 48 hours before I heard back from some one. I believe the guy said he waited about one hour before losing his **** and spamming them for a few hours straight? Technically, that could almost count as a DOS attack.... (Seriously, think about how long it takes to get a response from a MOD on THIS board when you've had a complaint/disagreed with a ruling...got one instantly have you?)

A CS rep would have to get the email, and then look over all available data, consult with the proper channels and get authorization to overturn the ban. Now if Nolan is indeed a founder, overturning his ruling is going to have to come from his level or higher...not something that your run of the mill CS rep is going to be able to do at the drop of a hat. Not if he likes his job.

Then we add in the near constant stream of "HEY UN-BAN ME NOW OR I"M GOING TO WHINE TO REDDIT" emails, and that CS rep probably isn't going to bother looking too deep into the matter. Obviously, they think, the guy is an unstable mess, and probably deserved what he got, and I've got an ever increasing case load on my desk top...time to move on.

Rhedyn
2018-10-05, 06:31 AM
Then we add in the near constant stream of "HEY UN-BAN ME NOW OR I"M GOING TO WHINE TO REDDIT" emails, and that CS rep probably isn't going to bother looking too deep into the matter.
In retrospect, they should have taken this threat more seriously.

Maybe don't be a crap company with thin skinned employees in customer facing rolls?

Mordaedil
2018-10-05, 09:34 AM
Ah yes. They are the ones with the thin skin. That... That is one way to read what happened, I suppose.

weckar
2018-10-05, 09:48 AM
Any subreddit moderated by a representative of the subject will harm free speech in some way. I am glad they are chanving things.

Segev
2018-10-05, 11:43 AM
I'm not too sure about this. Mail bombing customer service for hours on end is not stable behavior by any definition of the word. That...is a gross exaggeration of what is described in this story. He contacted them twice in 48 hours. That's not "mail bombing," and is actually a rather reasonable "once per day because this matters to me and I don't want it forgotten and I haven't gotten a response" behavior.

Generally, when I deal with customer service, I get responses within six hours from most places, at least during business hours. Often even outside of business hours. If I don't get a response within 24, I will mail again, jsut to make sure it didn't get lost somewhere.


Ah yes. They are the ones with the thin skin. That... That is one way to read what happened, I suppose.

Regardless of how thin you think the plaintiff's skin is, the CS response indicates an unhealthily thin one for CS.

Deophaun
2018-10-05, 12:29 PM
Generally, when I deal with customer service, I get responses within six hours from most places, at least during business hours. Often even outside of business hours. If I don't get a response within 24, I will mail again, jsut to make sure it didn't get lost somewhere.
There was a time when companies had standing policies that, if an issue could not be resolved immediately, the customer must get a return call within 24 hours.

Now, a customer expecting that kind of service is deemed unstable and pursuing it harassment.

How far we've fallen.

Max_Killjoy
2018-10-05, 12:49 PM
That...is a gross exaggeration of what is described in this story. He contacted them twice in 48 hours. That's not "mail bombing," and is actually a rather reasonable "once per day because this matters to me and I don't want it forgotten and I haven't gotten a response" behavior.

Generally, when I deal with customer service, I get responses within six hours from most places, at least during business hours. Often even outside of business hours. If I don't get a response within 24, I will mail again, jsut to make sure it didn't get lost somewhere.



Regardless of how thin you think the plaintiff's skin is, the CS response indicates an unhealthily thin one for CS.

Twice in 48 hours?

And that's being characterized by the defenders of Roll20 as "harassment" and "mailbombing"?

It's amazing the lengths that people will go to do provide free PR work to the companies they are loyal to, and that they believe are loyal to them in turn.

Segev
2018-10-05, 01:18 PM
Twice in 48 hours?

And that's being characterized by the defenders of Roll20 as "harassment" and "mailbombing"?

It's amazing the lengths that people will go to do provide free PR work to the companies they are loyal to, and that they believe are loyal to them in turn.

Read the opening post's story to verify, but that's my take-away. He first tried talking to the subreddit mod, and got what was eitehr a brush-off or a veiled threat to tell Reddit that he was violating Reddit-wide policy by using a second account to get around bans. When he gathered evidence to prove he wasn't the same account as best he could (working far harder at it than I probably would have), he couldn't get a reply. So he went to Roll20, and laid out his case and demanded a public apology from the subreddit mod as well as the ban being lifted.

He got no reply within 24 hours, so sent another email that was more forceful. Both of these are what Roll20 and people who are saying they did nothing wrong are terming an "entitled tantrum." I, personally, think it was neither, though it was showing his ire by the end.

Could he have behaved better? Sure. Was his behavior particularly bad? Not really; it would barely have raised a scene if performed equivalently IRL in a publicly-viewable customer service line at a Wal*Mart. Were his demands all reasonable? Maybe not, but customer service is unofficially a negotiation game, and talking down an irate customer to what you CAN do and getting them to leave happy is a healthy CS department's goal. Sure, some are so beliggerant that it's impossible, and you cut your losses with a "don't let the door hit you on your way out" type reply, but accusing somebody of being toxic just because they dared be miffed when they came to complain to customer service is...well before that point.

Rhedyn
2018-10-05, 01:38 PM
He got no reply within 24 hours, so sent another email that was more forceful. Both of these are what Roll20 and people who are saying they did nothing wrong are terming an "entitled tantrum." I, personally, think it was neither, though it was showing his ire by the end.The real truth is that Roll20's defenders do not care about that guy, they care about Roll20. They are only pretending his behavior was bad because they like Roll20 (or may honestly just hate customers being treated fairly).

It's a new-age kind of bullying. Instead of swearing or sending death threats at the guy, they try to assassinate his character, normally by framing his behavior poorly in such a way that can line up with a skimming of the facts but not what actually happened.

But it all flies under various forum mod radars because at-worse, you can say they misunderstood a situation not that they are actively being malicious about it.

(or may honestly just hate customers being treated fairly) I can't rule out that some people hate the idea of their fellow human being treated fairly by businesses and have no actual loyalty to Roll20.

Inb4 defenders pretend to be offended that I called them a bully when I did not do that. Because that would be exactly the kind of thing I am talking about.

Segev
2018-10-05, 02:19 PM
The real truth is that Roll20's defenders do not care about that guy, they care about Roll20. They are only pretending his behavior was bad because they like Roll20 (or may honestly just hate customers being treated fairly).

It's a new-age kind of bullying. Instead of swearing or sending death threats at the guy, they try to assassinate his character, normally by framing his behavior poorly in such a way that can line up with a skimming of the facts but not what actually happened.

But it all flies under various forum mod radars because at-worse, you can say they misunderstood a situation not that they are actively being malicious about it.

(or may honestly just hate customers being treated fairly) I can't rule out that some people hate the idea of their fellow human being treated fairly by businesses and have no actual loyalty to Roll20.

Inb4 defenders pretend to be offended that I called them a bully when I did not do that. Because that would be exactly the kind of thing I am talking about.

While I largely agree with you, Rheyden, I have to say that you're coming off here as saying, "Your behavior is what a bully would do, but I'm not calling you a bully." You may want to clarify better if you aren't saying people are behaving in the manner you described as "a new-age kind of bullying."

I also doubt that there's any hatred of customers being treated fairly, especially given how subjective "fair" is. I expect that the primary reason is simply that they are putting themselves in the place of the Roll20 CS staff and saying, "I'd have not wanted to deal with this guy, either." They're not considering what being in the position of CS means their job is, and only thinking of it in terms of their own lack of desire to deal with people being irate at them, personally.

Rhedyn
2018-10-05, 02:41 PM
While I largely agree with you, Rheyden, I have to say that you're coming off here as saying, "Your behavior is what a bully would do, but I'm not calling you a bully." You may want to clarify better if you aren't saying people are behaving in the manner you described as "a new-age kind of bullying."If they aren't Roll20 defenders, my interpretation of their stance so far is that they are against customers being treated fairly.

Is that what they meant? Maybe not, but it is what the generalized application of what they have been saying means. That isn't bullying, but I do take issue with the philosophical ramifications of their complaints.

1. Ask customer service ONCE to correct an issue in the nicest way possible or you do not deserve help.

2. Wait patiently for the company to deign to address the issue. If they choose not to, then humbly accept their decision.

3. Never grumble about companies on social media for any infraction they commit against you. Also never mention in your dealings with the company that you will grumble. You aren't suppose to grumble, so this is a threat and aggressive behavior.

This leads a to dynamic where companies are permitted to abuse you in anyway possible and you are not allowed to complain (unless actual laws are broken and you can report them to the police). Ergo, you hate customers being treated fairly and also do not want others warned about bad companies.

Knaight
2018-10-05, 03:47 PM
(or may honestly just hate customers being treated fairly) I can't rule out that some people hate the idea of their fellow human being treated fairly by businesses and have no actual loyalty to Roll20.


"Businesses" is a convenient word here - it lets you ignore the part where the customers aren't just interacting with a faceless corporate entity, but actual specific workers. Now, some people may hate the idea of treating mere workers as their fellow human beings, let alone the idea that the vaunted customer may have to treat them fairly, or maybe deal with some minor inconvenience.

Demanding public apologies from junior service personnel while implicitly threatening to kick up a stink and get their bosses on them (which was by all indication what the poster in question was trying to do, for all that it wasn't going to actually work) is out of line. The company said junior service personnel works for here is irrelevant.

Deophaun
2018-10-05, 05:04 PM
Demanding public apologies...
...didn't happen. He wanted an apology. Nowhere is the word "public" applied to it.

And even if it was. So? What were his "threats" if his demands were not met? Cancel his service and tell others about his negative experience. Is he allowed to cancel his service? Yes. Is he lying about his experience? No one has disputed that account. So what's the big deal? He could throw in demands for a million dollars, a puppy, or to have all the Roll20 devs take a picture of themselves holding a sign reading "pwned by ApostleO" into the mix. Nothing that he threatened to do if he didn't get his way wasn't unreasonable for him to do anyway (it's par for the course with disgruntled customers). You either decide that the price for reconciliation is fair or not and respond or not accordingly.

Yet this somehow becomes "threatening to burn down the business."

Much like how a demand for an apology now becomes a demand for a public apology: because relating things just as they are isn't sexy enough. We need to embellish to make the customer look as bad as possible.

I don't really care about what ApostleO did, because I'm probably never going to have a business interaction with ApostleO. I'm not using ApostleO Hosting Services or ApostleO Milk Delivery. I'm not talking about ApostleO's next AAA-Indy-Side-scrolling-FPS-Single Player-MMORPG set in Stoneage Space Pangea. How ApostleO behaves is not relevant to me. How Roll20 behaves, meanwhile, is. And if they freak out over someone saying that they will accurately relay their bad experience with their mods to the public, comparing that with negotiating with terrorists, that tells me nothing good about them.

Knaight
2018-10-05, 05:44 PM
...didn't happen. He wanted an apology. Nowhere is the word "public" applied to it.
Demanding an apology, at all, is unreasonable. As for the extent to which it's public the exact word hardly has to appear. Subtext is a thing that exists, and I'll be getting to that later.


And even if it was. So? What were his "threats" if his demands were not met? Cancel his service and tell others about his negative experience. Is he allowed to cancel his service? Yes. Is he lying about his experience? No one has disputed that account. So what's the big deal? He could throw in demands for a million dollars, a puppy, or to have all the Roll20 devs take a picture of themselves holding a sign reading "pwned by ApostleO" into the mix. Nothing that he threatened to do if he didn't get his way wasn't unreasonable for him to do anyway (it's par for the course with disgruntled customers). You either decide that the price for reconciliation is fair or not and respond or not accordingly.
Again the actual worker is dismissed, in favor of the vague term "Roll20 devs". As for the actions, all of them are reasonable as actions taken against a business. None are even particularly noticeable as actions taken against a business. That's not what happened here though - these were actions taken against a worker, using a strategy that only works if a business can be trusted to screw over the people who actually put in the work in favor of the most obnoxious elements of the people who spend some tiny amount of money there. Most businesses can be counted on to do that, because they don't have their workers' backs in the slightest. That that didn't apply here is an unalloyed good.

At the end of the day the company backed one of their employees over an entitled, belligerent ass of a customer.


Yet this somehow becomes "threatening to burn down the business."

Much like how a demand for an apology now becomes a demand for a public apology: because relating things just as they are isn't sexy enough. We need to embellish to make the customer look as bad as possible.
Nobody has called it "threatening to burn down the business", but I guess reporting the actual lines of criticism just wasn't sexy enough. The threat to the business is trivial, and I couldn't care less about it. It's the way that threat was leveraged - against a specific worker, to coerce an apology - that I have a problem with.

As for whether or not it's public, sure, you could claim that a demand for an apology in written form right next to a threat against the particular worker involving causing a very public scene they would likely be blamed for somehow had an expectation of privacy attached. Somehow I doubt it, even when trying to keep the knowledge that this whole exchange was published later out of it.



I don't really care about what ApostleO did, because I'm probably never going to have a business interaction with ApostleO. I'm not using ApostleO Hosting Services or ApostleO Milk Delivery. I'm not talking about ApostleO's next AAA-Indy-Side-scrolling-FPS-Single Player-MMORPG set in Stoneage Space Pangea. How ApostleO behaves is not relevant to me. How Roll20 behaves, meanwhile, is. And if they freak out over someone saying that they will accurately relay their bad experience with their mods to the public, comparing that with negotiating with terrorists, that tells me nothing good about them.
I'd posit that the argument from self interest goes exactly the opposite way. It's not just that Roll20 is profoundly unimportant to me personally, it's what the various actors in this are in the scheme of things. I don't particularly have to care what the policy for dealing with entitled and belligerent customers is as a customer. That's a really easy role to avoid, by just generally being decent to the workers you interact with. As a customer, this is very much someone else's problem.

As a worker? Suddenly there's a relevance here. The extent to which a company I'm working for expects me to perform obsequiousness for hostile customers absolutely can matter, as while I can choose not to be them I can't choose not to encounter them. This is a microcosm of a broader cultural argument about how much one is expected to placate the unreasonable while they're being unreasonable. I fall on the side of that argument that said mandatory placation should be kept to a minimum.

Rhedyn
2018-10-05, 05:44 PM
"Businesses" is a convenient word here - it lets you ignore the part where the customers aren't just interacting with a faceless corporate entity, but actual specific workers. Now, some people may hate the idea of treating mere workers as their fellow human beings, let alone the idea that the vaunted customer may have to treat them fairly, or maybe deal with some minor inconvenience.

Demanding public apologies from junior service personnel while implicitly threatening to kick up a stink and get their bosses on them (which was by all indication what the poster in question was trying to do, for all that it wasn't going to actually work) is out of line. The company said junior service personnel works for here is irrelevant. This is a mischaracterization.

Deophaun
2018-10-05, 06:50 PM
Nobody has called it "threatening to burn down the business"
My bad. It was "store," not "business:"

When someone's response to a ban from an ancillary forum is essentially, "I will spend enormous effort attempting to burn down the store," we know-- from experience-- that they'll do the same thing to other users they dislike, and we'll be left cleaning up the mess and with a poor user interactions.
But "business" is just so much sexier.

But I commend you on having equal ignorance of both sides of the discussion.

Max_Killjoy
2018-10-05, 08:17 PM
Which to me comes across as NolanT conflating his personal ability to threaten and ban customer feedback with the whole of the business.

War_lord
2018-10-06, 03:03 AM
If they aren't Roll20 defenders, my interpretation of their stance so far is that they are against customers being treated fairly.

I'm in favor of both employees and customers being treated fairly. And from that perspective, roll20 not panic firing an employee when they're the victim of targeted harassment, when in the past so many other companies with a similar entitled grognard customer base have ran to satiate the mob is actually to their credit. Granted it's not entirely a heroic act because Nolan is A. a dude and B. the co-founder, but I'm still more inclined to cheer on Roll20 then the worst sections of the reddit population's attention seeking behavior.

It's really telling that you feel the need to dehumanise roll20 workers by referring to "roll20" as if it's a faceless monolith and nothing is at stake with this hate campaign except nebulous "fairness" to the customer. This isn't the first time an attempt to get people fired for personal reasons was dressed up as consumer rights.

Max_Killjoy
2018-10-06, 08:18 AM
I find it more telling here that the customer's actions after being unjustly banned, and then ignored for days other than to be told told he wasn't worth the time, are being called "harassment".

Deophaun
2018-10-06, 09:02 AM
I find it more telling here that the customer's actions after being unjustly banned, and then ignored for days other than to be told told he wasn't worth the time, are being called "harassment".

Harassment is just another word that has lost all meaning.

Palanan
2018-10-06, 09:27 AM
As a complete outsider to both Roll20 and the Reddit community, this just seems like a tangle of poor decisions and overreactions.

The only relevance to me is that I’ve started looking into VTT environments as a backup for physical gaming, and this entire kerfluffle has encouraged me to steer well clear of Roll20.

It’s not likely I would have chosen them anyway, since they apparently have quite a steep learning curve, especially for the DM. But this situation has caused this potential customer to step away. Whatever exactly is going on with this company and its customer relations, it looks messy and unwelcoming, and I don’t need that.

Rhedyn
2018-10-06, 11:33 AM
I'm in favor of both employees and customers being treated fairly. And from that perspective, roll20 not panic firing an employee when they're the victim of targeted harassment, when in the past so many other companies with a similar entitled grognard customer base have ran to satiate the mob is actually to their credit. Granted it's not entirely a heroic act because Nolan is A. a dude and B. the co-founder, but I'm still more inclined to cheer on Roll20 then the worst sections of the reddit population's attention seeking behavior.

It's really telling that you feel the need to dehumanise roll20 workers by referring to "roll20" as if it's a faceless monolith and nothing is at stake with this hate campaign except nebulous "fairness" to the customer. This isn't the first time an attempt to get people fired for personal reasons was dressed up as consumer rights.
I have not once advocated that anyone be fired.

Idk why you felt the need to misrepresent that.

Mordaedil
2018-10-06, 01:12 PM
You are all pretty crazy with the hyperbole here. Nobody should get fired, I don't think that the complainer was harassing the company, just that he demanded too much.

If they did restore his account on the subreddit of Roll20, would anyone here actually care about this anymore?

Deophaun
2018-10-06, 08:21 PM
If they did restore his account on the subreddit of Roll20, would anyone here actually care about this anymore?As his account was restored before this thread was posted, I think you can safely determine the answer to your question.

The reason this is news is not because he was suspended, but because the co-founder of Roll20 equated criticism of his company to burning down the store, and he did it while acting as a reddit mod.

Kyrell1978
2018-10-06, 08:41 PM
As his account was restored before this thread was posted, I think you can safely determine the answer to your question.

The reason this is news is not because he was suspended, but because the co-founder of Roll20 equated criticism of his company to burning down the store, and he did it while acting as a reddit mod.

Yeah. All of this combined with the guys from dawnforgedcast and taking twenty and web dm confirming at the very least that Nolan is an asshat at the same time and people all of a sudden have a decision to make. They will vote with their wallets.

Hooligan
2018-10-06, 09:25 PM
Yeah. All of this combined with the guys from dawnforgedcast and taking twenty and web dm confirming at the very least that Nolan is an asshat at the same time and people all of a sudden have a decision to make. They will vote with their wallets.

Will they though? It is free-to-play/GM and I would wager that few users, if any, will choose to quit the site over the bickering of 2 reddit simpletons.

LordEntrails
2018-10-06, 11:58 PM
Since Knaight and others seem to not understand this point, let me make this abundantly clear;
1) The sub reddit moderator in question is NolanT
2) NolanT is one of the FOUNDERS and the current MANAGING PARTNER of Roll20, he is not some "employee".
3) NolanT is the person at top that finalizes any business decisions, he is the one person that more than anyone else is responsible for the culture demonstrated by the Roll 20 employees. He is the one ultimately responsible for the actions taken on behalf of the company.
4) NolanT is the only one involved on the Roll20 side that took ANY actions.
5) NolanT is a self-admitted cyber bully who has stated; "imagining that all discussion online revolves around me"

This was not some occurrence between a customer and customer service rep. This was an occurrence between a customer and the managing partner of a company who CHOSE to act as the customer service rep for his company.



The only relevance to me is that I’ve started looking into VTT environments as a backup for physical gaming, and this entire kerfluffle has encouraged me to steer well clear of Roll20.

As you should, and I think was exactly the intent of ApostleO (the customer that complained). 'Hey, be aware, this is how Roll20 treats its customers.' (And this is exactly how the MANAGING PARTNER of Roll20 wants his customers treated.

LordEntrails
2018-10-07, 12:01 AM
Will they though? It is free-to-play/GM and I would wager that few users, if any, will choose to quit the site over the bickering of 2 reddit simpletons.
Yea, they will. I personally have helped about a dozen VTT users that state they used to be subscribing (paying) customer of Roll20 move to another VTT platform.

Sure, a dozen customers won't put a dent in the Roll20 customer base. But if I've helped a dozen, how many hundred or thousands have left? We won't know until (and if) Roll20 publishing their 2018Q4 game statistics. And then it will only be indirect numbers to draw from since they do not ever state their number of paying customers.

Knaight
2018-10-07, 02:06 AM
Since Knaight and others seem to not understand this point, let me make this abundantly clear;
1) The sub reddit moderator in question is NolanT
2) NolanT is one of the FOUNDERS and the current MANAGING PARTNER of Roll20, he is not some "employee".
3) NolanT is the person at top that finalizes any business decisions, he is the one person that more than anyone else is responsible for the culture demonstrated by the Roll 20 employees. He is the one ultimately responsible for the actions taken on behalf of the company.
4) NolanT is the only one involved on the Roll20 side that took ANY actions.
5) NolanT is a self-admitted cyber bully who has stated; "imagining that all discussion online revolves around me"

This was not some occurrence between a customer and customer service rep. This was an occurrence between a customer and the managing partner of a company who CHOSE to act as the customer service rep for his company.

We understand the point just fine; it's just irrelevant. There's no reason to think that the former customer had this knowledge, and as such their actions should be judged based on the best estimate of what they did know - which is that they were dealing with a customer service employee.

Does this essentially remove all credit Roll 20 would get from this as a company? Sure, and that's been pointed out multiple times in this thread by people who consider this action reasonable. That's a very different question to whether the action was reasonable in the first place though.

Also on point 5 you've dropped a very important "former".

Mordaedil
2018-10-07, 06:04 AM
LordEntrails takes his cyberbullying very seriously, nevermind that everyone 5-10 years ago on the Internet were cyberbullying as a passtime.

Zalabim
2018-10-07, 08:08 AM
I remember reading this story when it was fresh, but I didn't want to share my opinion at the time because I figured it wouldn't make sense and it would just get buried. That opinion is a pretty simple: I couldn't possibly care about any of this. I think I can expand on that with a better explanation now. Roll20 is not now, and should not have been then, making any company statements from a subreddit. If I got a phone call from a customer complaining that my boss unfriended them on Facebook, I'd care just as much. It shouldn't matter to the customer. It shouldn't matter to the company. The /roll20 mod was in the wrong, and doubled-down on being wrong, but really, so what? It's a subreddit the customer didn't use anyway. Everything really did start with Apostleo getting worked up about nothing, and that's why I couldn't care about anything that followed, no matter how apparently badly it was handled.

To be clear, there was no actual threat of his Reddit account getting globally banned and getting globally banned from Reddit isn't a real threat anyway.

Hooligan
2018-10-07, 08:16 AM
Yea, they will. I personally have helped about a dozen VTT users that state they used to be subscribing (paying) customer of Roll20 move to another VTT platform.

Sure, a dozen customers won't put a dent in the Roll20 customer base. But if I've helped a dozen, how many hundred or thousands have left? We won't know until (and if) Roll20 publishing their 2018Q4 game statistics. And then it will only be indirect numbers to draw from since they do not ever state their number of paying customers.

A whole dozen? Conductor of the VTT underground railroad over here!



This was not some occurrence between a customer and customer service rep. This was an occurrence between a customer and the managing partner of a company who CHOSE to act as the customer service rep for his company.

As you should, and I think was exactly the intent of ApostleO (the customer that complained). 'Hey, be aware, this is how Roll20 treats its customers.' (And this is exactly how the MANAGING PARTNER of Roll20 wants his customers treated.

Is that how they treat their customers? Or is it how a single employee treated a single, obnoxious member of their subreddit (coincidentally a sordid den of pissing and moaning)? I'm no huge fan, but I have used roll20 to play 5e since it's release; it works, it is free, and -most important of all- there is a large player base. Over those years I have had 0 interaction with their customer service team, moderators, or any other employee. I have not observed that this is how they treat their customers. I have observed that reddit people are rude and loud. Unstoppable outrage meets immovable discourtesy.

Max_Killjoy
2018-10-07, 08:28 AM
Why do people keep saying "employee" when this was a founder and the current head of the company?

Why do people keep treating this like a one-off incident when it's just one of many examples of NolanT acting this way?

It's also quite telling that some of the defenders of NolanT's behavior are displaying the same sort of belittling and derisive attitude that he does.

Max_Killjoy
2018-10-07, 08:31 AM
LordEntrails takes his cyberbullying very seriously, nevermind that everyone 5-10 years ago on the Internet were cyberbullying as a passtime.

"Everyone"?

The Insanity
2018-10-07, 09:29 AM
"Everyone"?

https://media.giphy.com/media/kAgcVV3X8ynug/giphy.gif

War_lord
2018-10-07, 11:15 AM
Yea, they will. I personally have helped about a dozen VTT users that state they used to be subscribing (paying) customer of Roll20 move to another VTT platform.

Sure, a dozen customers won't put a dent in the Roll20 customer base. But if I've helped a dozen, how many hundred or thousands have left? We won't know until (and if) Roll20 publishing their 2018Q4 game statistics. And then it will only be indirect numbers to draw from since they do not ever state their number of paying customers.

Congratulations, you've managed to gut roll20 by getting rid of 12 of their 60,000+ D&D players, because that's how that works. What's with Reddit trolls and sense of scale?

Knaight
2018-10-07, 01:41 PM
LordEntrails takes his cyberbullying very seriously, nevermind that everyone 5-10 years ago on the Internet were cyberbullying as a passtime.

That's not even slightly true. There were some hives of cyberbullying, sure, most of which are pretty much the same ones as there are today (4chan was garbage then and it's garbage now), but this has never been a hugely common behavior. More than that said hives were never really the main sites - that was people using social media for people they knew personally, usually in middle and highschool contexts, and basically the same people who were also bullies face to face.

LordEntrails
2018-10-07, 07:59 PM
You folks crack me up.

"former" Well their are dozens are documented examples of current (last 12 months) bullying behavior by Nolan. So maybe by former you mean anything older than a couple weeks? So, Charles Manson isn't a "murderer", he's a "former murderer". Got it.

'The behavior of X doesn't matter to me because I've never interacted with X. But I'll go ahead and use X's product and send money to X because X's behavior isn't important to me.'
Ok, you're entitled to do so. But to try and deny X's behavior is as demonstrated is dishonest to yourself and everyone you voice the opinion that X's behavior is not as demonstrated.

And to say that 'I don't pay for Roll20, I only use the free account, therefore I'm not sending any money to Roll20.' is simple wrong. Roll20 makes money every time you log in. They sell you (the free users) as their product.

Hooligan
2018-10-07, 08:25 PM
'The behavior of X doesn't matter to me because I've never interacted with X. But I'll go ahead and use X's product and send money to X because X's behavior isn't important to me.'
Ok, you're entitled to do so. But to try and deny X's behavior is as demonstrated is dishonest to yourself and everyone you voice the opinion that X's behavior is not as demonstrated.

And to say that 'I don't pay for Roll20, I only use the free account, therefore I'm not sending any money to Roll20.' is simple wrong. Roll20 makes money every time you log in. They sell you (the free users) as their product.

If you (and MaxWilson) are obliquely referring to my remarks, come off your little horse and wise up lad; I believe I was consistent in my derision of both sides as they are both deserving. I've little doubt old Nolan is a brigand. I think you mistakenly assume my remarks about the company also apply to or are in defense of the behavior/character of Nolan. I assure you they are not. I do not give one whit about how much of a brat he is or is not. To clarify, I've had no interactions with the company outside of using their product for several years, during which time neither I nor anyone I've played with has experienced the sort of mistreatment that has been mentioned in the thread. What I care about is that:

the product works
5e is supported

It satisfies both points very well. If there is a platform that works better/had more players, I might use that, but I don't know that such a site exists currently. If your valiant attempts to shepherd people elsewhere are for reasons other than the aforementioned, then I'd be curious as to what your aim is. Seemingly not providing others with a better quality of gameplay.

Rhedyn
2018-10-07, 09:07 PM
You folks crack me up.

"former" Well their are dozens are documented examples of current (last 12 months) bullying behavior by Nolan. So maybe by former you mean anything older than a couple weeks? So, Charles Manson isn't a "murderer", he's a "former murderer". Got it.

'The behavior of X doesn't matter to me because I've never interacted with X. But I'll go ahead and use X's product and send money to X because X's behavior isn't important to me.'
Ok, you're entitled to do so. But to try and deny X's behavior is as demonstrated is dishonest to yourself and everyone you voice the opinion that X's behavior is not as demonstrated.

And to say that 'I don't pay for Roll20, I only use the free account, therefore I'm not sending any money to Roll20.' is simple wrong. Roll20 makes money every time you log in. They sell you (the free users) as their product.
Various versions of ad-blockers kind of kill revenue. The big data on "what rpgs the kids are playing" is not worth much.


If you (and MaxWilson) are obliquely referring to my remarks, come off your little horse and wise up lad; I believe I was consistent in my derision of both sides as they are both deserving. I've little doubt old Nolan is a brigand. I think you mistakenly assume my remarks about the company also apply to or are in defense of the behavior/character of Nolan. I assure you they are not. I do not give one whit about how much of a brat he is or is not. To clarify, I've had no interactions with the company outside of using their product for several years, during which time neither I nor anyone I've played with has experienced the sort of mistreatment that has been mentioned in the thread. What I care about is that:

the product works
5e is supported

It satisfies both points very well. If there is a platform that works better/had more players, I might use that, but I don't know that such a site exists currently. If your valiant attempts to shepherd people elsewhere are for reasons other than the aforementioned, then I'd be curious as to what your aim is. Seemingly not providing others with a better quality of gameplay.

"Both sides are bad!" aka, you support Roll20 but are trying to take a more persuasive/believable stance.

Roland St. Jude
2018-10-07, 09:42 PM
Sheriff: Locked for review. This thread has become decidedly uncivil. Do not restart it.