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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Barbarian Subclass: Path of the Lycan - feedback needed



Blackflight
2018-09-26, 12:53 PM
I've made a Barbarian subclass that makes the player turn into a werewolf whenever he rages. I would like to have your input on whether the class is balanced, underwhelming or over the top. I have not added any thematic descriptions as this thread is purely meant as a discussion of mechanics.

Link: http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HybI5sd5KQ

Lycanthropy (3rd level)
Starting at 3rd level, you transform into a werewolf whenever you rage. In addition to the normal rage effects, you gain the following benefits and weaknesses.
• Bestial transformation: You transform into a medium humanoid werewolf hybrid. You retain all your natural senses, such as darkvision. You are still able to speak, but your limbs lack the precision of wielding weapons and armor does not fit your body. When transforming you can choose to let your equipment drop to the ground or merge into your body (merged equipment is without effect). Regardless of what you were carrying, you count as unarmed and unarmored while transformed, the DM may however allow you to retain the benefit of any magical trinkets carried.

• Vulnerable to silver: You gain vulnerability rather than resistance to slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage made by silvered weapons.

• Natural weapons: Your unarmed strikes deal d6 + your strength modifier as either slashing damage (claws) or piercing damage (bite).

• Multiattack: When you use the attack action with an unarmed strike on your turn, you can make one additional unarmed strike as a bonus action.

• Toughened hide: You gain a +1 bonus to your AC

• Enhanced agility: Your movement increases by 5 ft.

Lunar frenzy (3rd level)
At 3rd level, you are constantly affected by rage when it is full moon. You cannot rest and you have disadvantage on all intelligence and charisma checks (except for intimidation checks). While affected by the full moon you cannot voluntarily choose to end the rage effect, but you do not expend a use of your rage when forced to transform this way.

Primal strikes (6th level)
Beginning at your 6th level, your unarmed strikes now deal d8 damage instead of d6 damage and count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances and immunities.

Predatory instincts (10th level)
At your 10th level, you gain darkvision 60 ft. and advantage on wisdom (perception) checks that rely on smell. If you already have darkvision, you also gain advantage on wisdom (perception) checks that rely on sight.

Feral rage (14th level)
Starting at 14th level, when you take damage from a creature that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.

Vogie
2018-09-27, 10:22 AM
Lycanthropy (3rd level)
Starting at 3rd level, you transform into a werewolf whenever you rage. In addition to the normal rage effects, you gain the following benefits and weaknesses.
• Bestial transformation: You transform into a medium humanoid werewolf hybrid. You retain all your natural senses, such as darkvision. You are still able to speak, but your limbs lack the precision of wielding weapons and armor does not fit your body. When transforming you can choose to let your equipment drop to the ground or merge into your body (merged equipment is without effect). Regardless of what you were carrying, you count as unarmed and unarmored while transformed, the DM may however allow you to retain the benefit of any magical trinkets carried.
• Vulnerable to silver: You gain vulnerability rather than resistance to slashing, piercing and bludgeoning damage made by silvered weapons.

• Natural weapons: Your unarmed strikes deal d6 + your strength modifier as either slashing damage (claws) or piercing damage (bite).
• Multiattack: When you use the attack action with an unarmed strike on your turn, you can make one additional unarmed strike as a bonus action.
• Toughened hide: You gain a +1 bonus to your AC
• Enhanced agility: Your movement increases by 5 ft.

Lunar frenzy (3rd level)
At 3rd level, you are constantly affected by rage when it is full moon. You cannot rest and you have disadvantage on all intelligence and charisma checks (except for intimidation checks). While affected by the full moon you cannot voluntarily choose to end the rage effect, but you do not expend a use of your rage when forced to transform this way.

Primal strikes (6th level)
Beginning at your 6th level, your unarmed strikes now deal d8 damage instead of d6 damage and count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistances and immunities.

Predatory instincts (10th level)
At your 10th level, you gain darkvision 60 ft. and advantage on wisdom (perception) checks that rely on smell. If you already have darkvision, you also gain advantage on wisdom (perception) checks that rely on sight.

Feral rage (14th level)
Starting at 14th level, when you take damage from a creature that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.

I like it. It's very straightforward, and nothing obviously looks overpowered.

I'd like to see the 10th level feature do a bit more... perhaps:

have a rider that increases the range of the Darkvision if you already had it
give advantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on hearing or smell
Ability to attempt a grapple attack as a bonus action
Evasion, but only while raging.



Perhaps expand the Feral Rage feature to include a Charger-feat-style attack that is only available while raging?

Amnoriath
2018-09-27, 01:04 PM
Ultimately, very underwhelming, not only does your rage force you to use inferior weaponry in the long run it forces you to use weaker stats and you are vulnerable to silvered weapons. It does just everything to you that you don't want.

Blackflight
2018-09-28, 07:44 AM
Thanks a lot for the feedback! I aimed to make the subclass slightly weaker than the official options as I think you should try to avoid making homebrew OP. Having said that, I do agree with Amnoriath that the class is perhaps a bit too underwhelming.

1) I made it so that unarmed strikes deal d10 damage at your 10th level and d12 at your 14th level: This is to make the class scale better into the mid and lategame. The class's biggest weakness is still of course the inability to use weapons and armor, but at least the +1AC in combination with Unarmored Defense, magical attacks at 6th level and extra damage at 6th, 10th and 14th level should help to mitigate this a bit.

2) I changed enhanced agility to: Your movement increases by 10 ft. and your jump distance is doubled: Since the class does not have any ranged options while raging I think its important to add some extra movement to make it easier to get into the fray.

3) I agree with Vogie that the 10th level feature is a bit underwhelming so I've changed it slightly to the following: At your 10th level, you gain darkvision 60 ft. and advantage on wisdom (perception) checks that rely on smell and hearing. If you already have darkvision its range is extended by 60 ft..

In general it seems that the 6th and 10th barbarian subclass features are fairly weak and more thematic, so I've intentionally kept these slightly weaker than the 3rd and 14th features.

Amnoriath
2018-09-28, 01:01 PM
Better, but the biggest worry is actually putting them in a werewolf form. If they take up the stats of it then all the big strength and constitution a Barbarian needs is lost and replaced with weaker scores.

Blackflight
2018-09-29, 02:47 AM
Good you brought it up! I can see that I need to change the wording a bit on bestial transformation. I never intended that you took the stats of a werewolf but rather that you assume the shape of one. The idea is that you retain your Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha as well as your normal AC and HP (in other words, it does not function like the druid wild shape mechanic). The "transformation" only is for aesthetics/theme, roleplaying and the additional rules provided under the lycanthropy feature.

Xyrz
2018-10-01, 06:48 PM
This is actually pretty neat!

I think with the damage dice scaling as mentioned before, this class becomes pretty solid on the whole. I don't actually have a problem with "Lunar Frenzy", it's actually really flavorful, and maybe even an interesting plot hook for your DM to use! If the world resembles Earth in any way, a full moon should only come up every 29 or 30 days.

I think its really well done Homebrew subclass!

Man_Over_Game
2018-10-02, 12:25 PM
To identify the strengths and weaknesses, I like to break things down into simple terms.

Level 3: You can't use weapons, you now deal damage with unarmed strikes, you gain some minor mobility, AC, and can attack more often.
You also are forced to rage while it's the full moon, with some other flavor things that are both good and bad but seem balanced against itself.

Level 6: You deal more damage

Level 10: Improve your vision

level 14: Attack more often.

--------------------

I'm seeing a trend with this; it doesn't really do anything the Barbarian doesn't already do. There could be some abilities involving regeneration, jump attacks, lifestealing, eating corpses, mobility-based effects, but so far, the only thing it does is "attack more often and hurt things more often." The other concern is the fact that there's not much you can do to improve it later on due to not being able to utilize weapons. That leaves out a lot of possible feats, magic items (and they already can't benefit from armor). There's just a number of things going against it.

And don't get me wrong, simple is what the Barbarian does best. But I can't even look forward to getting a creative magic weapon that mixes things up. My playstyle from 3 to 20 is going to be "Run up and punch a thing", without adding anything new. Compare this to the Totem Barbarian, which adds to your options without making any drastic leaps in playstyle.

I do like the idea of a Barbarian's rage letting him transform into a werewolf. It's very cool and flavorful and I can definitely see it work out. But I'd make it more emphasis on the "werewolf" than the "barbarian". What COULD changing into a werewolf give you, and focus heavily on those aspects. My recommendation is to make the Werewolf a tanky/mobile unarmed striker that uses health regeneration and sustain effects to hold off a larger foe, and maybe make the distinction between the werewolf and the human form by having the human form being more adept at dealing damage with steel.

As of right now, there are not many reasons a Barbarian wouldn't want to be raging. There are no means of increasing survivability to yourself as a Barbarian outside of the Zealot path. There are also few means of adapting to the circumstances as a barbarian, and I can see a werewolf form filling each one of these voids.

Xyrz
2018-10-02, 04:30 PM
And don't get me wrong, simple is what the Barbarian does best. But I can't even look forward to getting a creative magic weapon that mixes things up. My playstyle from 3 to 20 is going to be "Run up and punch a thing", without adding anything new. Compare this to the Totem Barbarian, which adds to your options without making any drastic leaps in playstyle.

I think a good way to fix that is to allow any magic weapon you are holding to merge its properties into your werewolf's attacks. So the base damage is still your d-whatever damage dice from your claws, but if it's a sunblade for instance, then the +2 modifier can be added to your attack, and your claws can glow or not glow just like how the sunblade can light up or not light up.

Same can be applied to other magic items that have various effects. The rule would have to be written into this subclass so that the player and the DM understand the mechanics of how that all would work.

As for more interesting features, I guess it depends on how straightforward you want the class to be. I would look to the Monster Manual and read the were-creature section and maybe come up with something, but you do need to have your character's attacks and damage scale reasonably well if you are a combat focused subclass.

Man_Over_Game
2018-10-02, 04:58 PM
I think a good way to fix that is to allow any magic weapon you are holding to merge its properties into your werewolf's attacks. So the base damage is still your d-whatever damage dice from your claws, but if it's a sunblade for instance, then the +2 modifier can be added to your attack, and your claws can glow or not glow just like how the sunblade can light up or not light up.

Same can be applied to other magic items that have various effects. The rule would have to be written into this subclass so that the player and the DM understand the mechanics of how that all would work.

As for more interesting features, I guess it depends on how straightforward you want the class to be. I would look to the Monster Manual and read the were-creature section and maybe come up with something, but you do need to have your character's attacks and damage scale reasonably well if you are a combat focused subclass.

It's important to note that every single one of the Barbarians' subclasses are all combat focused.

Just as a quick refresher for everyone, here's a list of the subclasses, what they do that's unique, and what their strategies are for the Barbarian:


Ancestral Guardian: I protect my friends, scout, and HURT THE BIGGEST THING.
Battlerager: HURT THINGS AS I HUG THEM.
Berserker: I sometimes use fear, but mostly I HURT YOU AS I GET HURT.
Storm Herald: I can deal with annoying weather, but mostly I STAND SOMEWHERE AND HURT A BUNCH OF THINGS.
Totem Warrior: Customize my defense/mobility, talk to animals, but mostly I HURT YOU.
Zealot: You can't kill me, so I HURT YOU.


Sometimes the Barbarian gets mobility. Sometimes, they get bonuses while they're raging. But there's not much use for any of the mobility they get (other than to run up and hurt things), and there's no reason not to rage.

I don't think that changing magic items to work while in werewolf form is the answer. Druids do just fine without any weird clauses like that in their moon druid forms, but the reason is that they have a reason to not be in their "overpowered" forms at all times. This is a bit easier for a druid, since there's already a clear reason built in (they can't cast spells while shapeshifting), but I think we could implement something similar for the Lycan.

A few things that come to mind:

You regenerate health as a Lycan. If you start a turn with full health and there is no enemy adjacent to you, you revert back to human.
You may only use your action to Attack or Dash while in Lycan form.
Your Jump distance is doubled, and some kind of special jump-strike is available
When you are attacked, you have disadvantage to attack anyone but the last enemy who attacked you if you can see them
When you are at 50% health or less, you automatically spend your reaction to immediately Rage, even if you have no rage uses left, and you cannot revert back to human form until your health is over 50%.
Similar to the last one. Rather than having a number of times you can rage per day, you have a number of times you can control your rage. If you take damage and you're less than 50% health, you automatically rage but this doesn't cost anything. Instead, if you want to revert back, you have to spend a rage. You can also force out your lycan form by spending a rage as normal. You do, however, have a number of penalties while in lycan form that might come from this list so you don't want to stay in lycan form for long.
When you make an unarmed attack, you can shove as a bonus action
Some kind of howl that is a fear burst that can impact both enemies and allies
Advantage on scent-based perception checks, and advantage on stealth checks.

Man_Over_Game
2018-10-03, 03:39 PM
An idea just came to me that'd be very interesting to do. Perhaps you have a limited list of actions that you can do while raging. Things like:


Make a melee unarmed attack against a hostile creature
Shove a target as a bonus action
Double your jump distance for the round as a bonus action
Disengage as a bonus action
Use your Action for a scent-based Perception check. Advantage if the target is wounded.
Hide as an action. Your Hide actions while raging have advantage.
Movement must be limited to moving towards a hostile or hidden creature if you have over half your health.
If you cannot see any hostile target, or if you do not smell any wounded targets that may be alive and hostile, you can only use your action to end your rage. You cannot end your rage as an action or a bonus action otherwise. Once your rage ends, you are stunned until the end of your next turn.

Blackflight
2018-10-05, 03:51 AM
This is actually pretty neat!

I think with the damage dice scaling as mentioned before, this class becomes pretty solid on the whole. I don't actually have a problem with "Lunar Frenzy", it's actually really flavorful, and maybe even an interesting plot hook for your DM to use! If the world resembles Earth in any way, a full moon should only come up every 29 or 30 days.

I think its really well done Homebrew subclass!

Thanks! Lunar Frenzy is definitely meant as a more thematic feature and is a tool for the DM to use. The feature is also balanced against itself, giving it just as many downsides as benefits, to avoid making the subclass too OP.

Blackflight
2018-10-05, 04:06 AM
An idea just came to me that'd be very interesting to do. Perhaps you have a limited list of actions that you can do while raging. Things like:


Make a melee unarmed attack against a hostile creature
Shove a target as a bonus action
Double your jump distance for the round as a bonus action
Disengage as a bonus action
Use your Action for a scent-based Perception check. Advantage if the target is wounded.
Hide as an action. Your Hide actions while raging have advantage.
Movement must be limited to moving towards a hostile or hidden creature if you have over half your health.
If you cannot see any hostile target, or if you do not smell any wounded targets that may be alive and hostile, you can only use your action to end your rage. You cannot end your rage as an action or a bonus action otherwise. Once your rage ends, you are stunned until the end of your next turn.


Good suggestions. I thought about giving the player some benefits to stealth and hiding, but unfortunatly it does not work well with the rage mechanics as they are right now. If you do not attack or take damage during one round you lose rage, meaning that stealth is really never going to happen. You could of course change the rage mechanic or prolong the duration of rage, but I think it would be easier to make a full lycan class rather than trying to force it into a barbarian subclass.

There are a lot of cool features to add, and while you have all options available when homebrewing, I personally think you should still try to keep things simple when making a subclass. I'm therefore not inclined to add too many new mechanics.

I added double jump distance when in lycan form, but i dont like making dash or disengage available as a bonus action - I think this would add too much to the subclass and take away some flavor from the rogue class. Leaving multiclass options open is pretty important too in my opinion.

I also thought that this subclass would have great benefit from taking the 'mobility' feat. This makes the player extremely fast and gives options for swiping through multiple enemies without provoking attacks of opportunity.

The way I understand grabble and shove is that you can forgo one of your attacks to make either a shove or grabble attempt. Since you can make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, wouldn't you already be able to grabble or shove as a bonus action too? If so, I don't think theres a need to add that paragraph.

Blackflight
2018-10-05, 04:17 AM
Sometimes the Barbarian gets mobility. Sometimes, they get bonuses while they're raging. But there's not much use for any of the mobility they get (other than to run up and hurt things), and there's no reason not to rage.


Its a good point and in general the barbarian is probably one of the more simple and straightforward classes. I do however think that this subclass actually changes this dynamic a little.

If you choose the path of lycan and you rage you obviously gain a fair selection of combat benefits, but you:

* lose the ability to make ranged attacks
* You cannot concentrate (you probably still wouldn't be casting spells if you could though)
* Your weapons and armor becomes without effect (maybe you had an armor that gives a useful effect you can no longer use)
* Finally theres the roleplaying aspect: If you change into a raging werewolf in the middle of a tavern because some drunk guy punched you, then NPCs around you might not welcome that sight.

When picking this subclass I think there are plenty of situations where you definitely do not want to rage.

On a side note, I personally really discourage adding effects like "roll a wisdom save DC x or lose control and attack the nearest creature" when one makes a lycan class. I do not like to take away options from players through rules but instead encourage that you roleplay them out.