Oath of the Infinite Abyss

[AgentMaineSIGMA]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MQuaWJwSQJjxU73sssA2rnawaOtDXbMVkye1P41vkpM/edit?usp=sharing

Another evil option beyond the Oathbreaker and the Oath of Conquest, I've written the Oath of the Infinite Abyss. You're kind of an anti-devotion paladin with a mix of other class features. The Channel Divinities are based on the Devotion and Conquest paladins, the aura is based on the Storm Herald barbarian, the Hellish Smite feature is just a variation of Divine Smite that felt necessary for the oath, and I was stumped for 20th level, so it's a mix of the Conquest paladin and some toned-down features Demogorgon has. While I like how it's turned out, I'm always open to suggestions for how to improve/balance the oath.

[kosh49]

This looks pretty good to me. I have a few things.

As a minor nitpick "See Chaos" should be "Sow Chaos".

I understand that doing damage is a significant part of what this subclass is about, but the number of damage dealing spells feels a little high. I would probably substitute Protection from Evil and Good for one of the first level spells (to get protection from celestials and fey).

I like the channel divinity and aura of rot features.

For the hellish smite I would modify the last sentence to indicate that the smites now do 2d8 extra damage against celestials and fey instead of doing 1d8 extra damage to fiends and undead. It's a shame you have to wait for level 15 to get this, it feels integral enough that you ought to get it earlier but I just don't see any room for it before this.

The avatar of demogorgon gives me mixed feelings. It's a good ability, and I like that it is primarily defensive and that it doesn't deal damage (because this subclass already has a lot of damage augmentation), but it leaves me wanting to tweak it somehow. I don't know why I want to tweak it, or what the tweak should be, I just know it's not feeling quite right to me.

[Grim Portent]

If this is Demon/Chaos themed shouldn't it be called something like Oath of the Infinite Abyss rather than being named after the Nine Hells? Demons are from the Abyss after all.

[kosh49]

You are right, devils are from the hells and demons are from the abyss.

[AgentMaineSIGMA]

If this is Demon/Chaos themed shouldn't it be called something like Oath of the Infinite Abyss rather than being named after the Nine Hells? Demons are from the Abyss after all.

Thanks for catching that. I always get the two confused. I've renamed it now.

[AgentMaineSIGMA]

This looks pretty good to me. I have a few things.

As a minor nitpick "See Chaos" should be "Sow Chaos".

I understand that doing damage is a significant part of what this subclass is about, but the number of damage dealing spells feels a little high. I would probably substitute Protection from Evil and Good for one of the first level spells (to get protection from celestials and fey).

I like the channel divinity and aura of rot features.

For the hellish smite I would modify the last sentence to indicate that the smites now do 2d8 extra damage against celestials and fey instead of doing 1d8 extra damage to fiends and undead. It's a shame you have to wait for level 15 to get this, it feels integral enough that you ought to get it earlier but I just don't see any room for it before this.

The avatar of demogorgon gives me mixed feelings. It's a good ability, and I like that it is primarily defensive and that it doesn't deal damage (because this subclass already has a lot of damage augmentation), but it leaves me wanting to tweak it somehow. I don't know why I want to tweak it, or what the tweak should be, I just know it's not feeling quite right to me.

Hi! I'm really glad that you like this oath. To address some of your concerns:

Good catch on the "Sow" thing. That's what I get for writing this in philosophy.

My only concern with Protection from Good and Evil is already a paladin spell. What I've done instead is replaced burning hands with bane, so it takes away at least one of the damage spells.

I still want your divine smites to hit hard with demons, mostly because no other subclass seems to take away from a base class feature. Would toning down the damage bonus to 1d8 do it?

I've felt the same way about the capstone. It feels both way too powerful and way too weak and I don't like that. Maybe instead of a transformation, you just get advantage on Con and Wis saving throws? Powerful, defensive, and unique since it's passive so you don't turn it on. Any thoughts?

[Xyrz]

I actually really like this Oath. A Paladin with Fireball sounds like fun! I like the spells a lot. But what about "Flame Blade"?

- Does it work with Extra Attack? Making a "melee spell attack" may not be same as taking the attack action.
- Does it work with Divine Smite? I don't think Flame Blade qualifies as a "melee weapon attack".

There just doesn't seem to be a lot of synergy here. Perhaps the "Shadow Blade" spell from Xanathar's Guide to Everything would be a better choice here. Or if you want fire damage, Flaming Sphere is a personal favorite of mine.

[AgentMaineSIGMA]

I actually really like this Oath. A Paladin with Fireball sounds like fun! I like the spells a lot. But what about "Flame Blade"?

- Does it work with Extra Attack? Making a "melee spell attack" may not be same as taking the attack action.
- Does it work with Divine Smite? I don't think Flame Blade qualifies as a "melee weapon attack".

There just doesn't seem to be a lot of synergy here. Perhaps the "Shadow Blade" spell from Xanathar's Guide to Everything would be a better choice here. Or if you want fire damage, Flaming Sphere is a personal favorite of mine.

Hi!

I'm really glad that you like the class. When it comes to Flame Blade, I know in my games I've always ruled/my friends have ruled that Flame Blade doesn't benefit from extra attack, but could benefit from other features like smites. That said, I do see your point. I'll probably just replace it with Flaming Sphere,

[nineGardens]

How often can you use Avatar of the demogorgon?