Player (Or character??) seems cocky and I want to humble him.

[Ihazturtlez]

We just had our first session last night and it went fairly well. They're a party of 2 for now, of a Monk and a Rogue. I allowed the Rogue to start off with a fair chunk of money, a friend that helps him in his thievery, and a magic item. I also allowed him to be the head of a crime ring. He decided to leave out that in his backstory, despite the world being at peace, countries hire him to do dirty work for them in other countries, such as steal items and assassinate. I don't really like that, but he established that to the Monk before telling me, and I don't want to stifle his creativity all though it doesn't really fit with the world. I also introduced an Ancient Silver Dragon that morphs into a humanoid form to them. The monk was surprised by it, as he should be never seeing a dragon before, but what the Rogue does is immediately challenge him to a fight (the PCs are level 4 by the way), and being simply bored by the dragon. Later on when the dragon asks for their help doing a chore, the Rogue denies him completely and tries to split the party up in order to try to steal from the castle while the Monk had already accepted the offer to help. Then even later on, after the Rogue nearly died to some worgs, I allowed them to sleep and get the effects of a long rest, but being woken in the night to a constant lightning striking the top of a building on top of a mountain. I ask them "what do you do?", and the Rogue says "I've seen weirder. I go back to sleep." That's what really upset me honestly. He plays his character like an uppity prick even though he got put in his place by some worgs. Is it just his character and I need to put him in his place again, or is it the player just being an ass?

[Tiadoppler]

I allowed the Rogue to start off with a fair chunk of money, a friend that helps him in his thievery, and a magic item. I also allowed him to be the head of a crime ring. He decided to leave out that in his backstory, despite the world being at peace, countries hire him to do dirty work for them in other countries, such as steal items and assassinate. I don't really like that, but he established that to the Monk before telling me, and I don't want to stifle his creativity all though it doesn't really fit with the world.

Sounds like you needed to have a session 0 where you explain your world and what sort of characters fit into it.

Also, if a player says "this is my backstory" and the DM says "that doesn't fit in with the rest of the universe, try again," that's it. The player should go back to the drawing board and figure out a working, genre-appropriate backstory with the DM's help. It's not about stifling creativity, it's about having a high quality game and story.



I also introduced an Ancient Silver Dragon that morphs into a humanoid form to them. The monk was surprised by it, as he should be never seeing a dragon before, but what the Rogue does is immediately challenge him to a fight (the PCs are level 4 by the way), and being simply bored by the dragon.

He's bored by an ancient dragon because he attacked it and wasn't killed instantly. If you, the DM, allow a level 4 rogue to survive in battle against a CR 23 dragon, no wonder he's bored. He has realized (correctly) that this world doesn't have consequences for his actions.



He plays his character like an uppity prick even though he got put in his place by some worgs. Is it just his character and I need to put him in his place again, or is it the player just being an ass?

If the player is being an ass, you need to have a talk with him OUTSIDE of the game, and solve the problem.

If it's the character is being an ass, you can just roll with it. Have consequences for his actions. You are the DM, so you control the entire universe. Combat between a single low-level rogue and the entire universe is not interesting, meaningful, or fair. There's no reason for you to "put him in his place" because his place is whatever you allow it to be.



We just had our first session last night and it went fairly well.

Did it really go fairly well? Did both of your players have fun? If so, maybe that's the campaign they want to play, and you should simply allow it.

If your players are both having fun, and you're not, you need to talk to them about it outside of the game. Say "this isn't the sort of game I wanted to run, can we please do a more traditional adventure?"


Before any campaign starts, this is the sort of thing to ask your players:

"What sort of game do you want to run?"
"Do you want a traditional good vs. evil adventure, or something with more gray areas?"

[dmteeter]

The player is being a prick.
Have one of those kingdoms he's supposedly robbed at lvl 4(unlikely) hire a group of mercenaries to capture him.
Have him taken back to that kingdom and imprisoned. Roll up a new character this ones done.

[Ihazturtlez]

Sounds like you needed to have a session 0 where you explain your world and what sort of characters fit into it.

Also, if a player says "this is my backstory" and the DM says "that doesn't fit in with the rest of the universe, try again," that's it. The player should go back to the drawing board and figure out a working, genre-appropriate backstory with the DM's help. It's not about stifling creativity, it's about having a high quality game and story.

He's bored by an ancient dragon because he attacked it and wasn't killed instantly. If you, the DM, allow a level 4 rogue to survive in battle against a CR 23 dragon, no wonder he's bored. He has realized (correctly) that this world doesn't have consequences for his actions.

If the player is being an ass, you need to have a talk with him OUTSIDE of the game, and solve the problem.

If it's the character is being an ass, you can just roll with it. Have consequences for his actions. You are the DM, so you control the entire universe. Combat between a single low-level rogue and the entire universe is not interesting, meaningful, or fair. There's no reason for you to "put him in his place" because his place is whatever you allow it to be.

Did it really go fairly well? Did both of your players have fun? If so, maybe that's the campaign they want to play, and you should simply allow it.
The monk said that he had fun, but I didn't ask the Rogue. And this is kind of honestly how the player is, so I figured I'd give it a try and see what he does. And he didn't directly attack the dragon, he had yelled out to him a challenge, and the dragon declined it because he doesn't like violence inside of his city. Also, before we had started, I had asked them their backstories and they sounded fine. He didn't tell me about being a blade for hire for countries. I told them both why they were there, and gave them a temporary goal to accomplish while they stayed in this city. I might invite another player in so they don't get bored with just the two of them, especially them both being somewhat squishy.
Is there something else I should do? They're getting introduced to the BBEG at the start of the next session, and they are the only ones, including the dragon, that can put up a real fight against him.
Edit; I also had told them that they are fighting the definition of evil in this campaign. He is the root of it all, so they know it's mostly a good vs evil campaign, but I will allow them to act with their alignments, and change them if they act against it.

[Ihazturtlez]

The player is being a prick.
Have one of those kingdoms he's supposedly robbed at lvl 4(unlikely) hire a group of mercenaries to capture him.
Have him taken back to that kingdom and imprisoned. Roll up a new character this ones done.
If he continues to be an ass about it, this will be the route I take. I'm fine with him being a little cocky and thinking he can go against a dragon just because he's overconfident, but I don't like him believing that an obviously supernatural occurrence, like a lightning targeting only a single building constantly, is within his norm. And all of this after the dragon had told them about the evil and how he is seeing signs of him returning.

[Scripten]

He didn't tell me about being a blade for hire for countries.

In this case, I'd just play it as the rogue lied to the monk. If it's not established in the backstory and is a major element that does fit with the world, then the character is just lying.


I also had told them that they are fighting the definition of evil in this campaign. He is the root of it all, so they know it's mostly a good vs evil campaign, but I will allow them to act with their alignments, and change them if they act against it.

Don't worry too awfully much about alignment. It's mostly there as a guide in this edition. However, if the character doesn't fit the campaign theme, then just have the player reroll or change characters (but use the same sheet). If you want to, ask the player to have their character wander off to do their own thing and just transfer over.

[Ihazturtlez]

In this case, I'd just play it as the rogue lied to the monk. If it's not established in the backstory and is a major element that does fit with the world, then the character is just lying.



Don't worry too awfully much about alignment. It's mostly there as a guide in this edition. However, if the character doesn't fit the campaign theme, then just have the player reroll or change characters (but use the same sheet). If you want to, ask the player to have their character wander off to do their own thing and just transfer over.

As much as I want this character to be gone, he would have none of it. He'd throw a fit, and probably kick me out considering I'm using his books and we play in his house.

[Theron_the_slim]

For me, you are describing 2 of the red flags I look out the most in players, at the beginning of a new group (one alone is usually already a dealbreaker for me)

1. the character has no interest in interacting with the world arround him

2. he has immorality syndrom (I am the hero, the hero can´t die or the story would be over ... bla bla bla)
The second one sometimes can be cured with a fair warning (Ingame or Outgame) but most of the time, but usually it´s a problem that wouldn´t even exist if the player would be able to let it go (because it´s so simple)


The first one is a pain in the butt and not one I would want to deal with in any way, that thing is a requirement, a preventing warning to get their stuff together on this point is all the help here that I as a DM would be willing to provide (the reason mostly because I am on princible against taking character creation and play also in my hand).

Solution: Make it clear to your players, that they are supposed to create an adventurer. Not someone character who wants a quiet life and has to be dragged out to every quest or some selfish **** that has to be charmed or bought by the group to explore the world with them.
Don´t get me wrong, characters can still make the choice to skip stuff, ignore plot hooks, have different opinions than their group members, if stuff doesn´t fit their character ... but that stuff should be the exception, not the rule.
If you are a player, the least you should be able to do is to be motivated (and by proxy your character) to play the game.


If the rogue player is a friend of yours, you can try and talk about it.
If not, well you still can try, but I would consider if it is worth the effort.

Honestly speaking ... as a DM, you rarely will find a lack of players (great ones are a rarer breed, but most that you will find are at least good) Most of the time your energy is better used to make the game better for good players (and also for you) than trying to fix bad ones

[Pelle]

but being woken in the night to a constant lightning striking the top of a building on top of a mountain. I ask them "what do you do?", and the Rogue says "I've seen weirder. I go back to sleep."

This was intended as a plot hook that he ignored? Sounds like he expects you to bring adventure to him, no matter what he does, which is fair enough in some playstyles. If so just tell them that you haven't prepared anything else (if true), and if he don't want to check it out, warn him that the rest of the session will be boring. Suggest he either join you again next time when you have prepared something new, or that he make a character who have motivation to go adventuring. If he makes no effort to engage with what you are presenting him, you are not required to indulge him.

[Consensus]

As much as I want this character to be gone, he would have none of it. He'd throw a fit, and probably kick me out considering I'm using his books and we play in his house.

Kick him from your group and use online materials. A person who won't be able to deal with the fact that his character is making the game less fun for the dm is not worth playing with, especially if its within their character to throw a fit.

[Man_Over_Game]

So you need this guy to change his tone, but it needs to be done in a way that doesn't piss the player off.

I mean, already he's challenged a dragon, stole from multiple countries, and has planned to steal from a territory that they're already aligned with. Sounds like the character has already made a ton of enemies.

Most dragons can take the form of anything they want. It'd be right up the alley of a blue/green dragon to pretend to be an ally when they're actually brokering a deal with all of the people he stole from.

"Get him to confess his crimes, and bring him to us alive" would be pretty easy instructions for a dragon, and with a big enough reward, they might just do it (plausible if the dragon had a problem, like a curse, that they couldn't normally handle). Maybe the dragon's toying with him to get some personal enjoyment out of it.

For the most part, it's his personality and his background that's a problem. Wait for an actual and present reason for his issues to come up. Just because he got away with owning a crime organization several years ago doesn't mean he has the stats for it now. The mechanics and world implications are going to catch up to him. Just give it time, and keep track of all the poor decisions he's making to capitalize on when you have the chance.

He thinks he's smart when he has control over everything, but his tune will change when he finds out a dragon and a band of mercenaries are after his head. It doesn't matter how smart you think you are, you're not going to be doing much but running. If you make it appear that it's the character's fault for his crappy decisions, then the player will be more understanding and play something more "down to earth". You could also inquire how someone acquired so much power and success despite the rather mundane stats/level.

[Scripten]

Kick him from your group and use online materials. A person who won't be able to deal with the fact that his character is making the game less fun for the dm is not worth playing with, especially if its within their character to throw a fit.

Seconding this. If it would stop the game, then just don't play at all. This guy sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[Man_Over_Game]

Sometimes that's not the answer. It's really easy for us to say over the internet, where personalities and relationships don't matter, but straight up kicking a guy out who may be a friend might not be beneficial in the long run. I'm sure that kicking the guy out was considered (as it's the most obvious thing to do), but yet he's still asking for assistance here.

Not to mention that OP is borrowing the books from the problem player, and that the problem player is 50% of the party, which ends up ruining pretty much any chance the Monk or the OP has to play (as I find that smaller parties started out being friends/acquaintances to begin with).

Not every problem can be solved by just throwing it away.

[Glorthindel]

Also, before we had started, I had asked them their backstories and they sounded fine. He didn't tell me about being a blade for hire for countries.

I'm not usually a fan of making players roll against each other in social situations, but something you could do to 'put him on notice' about introducing backstory 'facts' which don't suit your world, is next time he says something like this (or the "I've seen worse" line), is to tell him to make a Deception Test against the other characters Insight, then depending on the results, tell the Monk "yeah, that sounds convincing", or "something about that doesn't sound right", then drop in the bit of world lore that contradicts what he just said. Even if he succeeds the test, it makes it clear to him that you are calling that fact out as not true.

[kane.84]

"(...) being woken in the night to a constant lightning striking the top of a building on top of a mountain. I ask them "what do you do?", and the Rogue says "I've seen weirder. I go back to sleep."It seems he's not interested in playing your game. It does not require a lot of intellect to figure out that DM wants players to gain interest and follow it. Good players understand it and find a reason for their characters to follow the plot.

From my experience if a player acts like that, he:
a) is bored and not mature enough to express it directly
b) he wants you to put more effort in drawing character into the plot, a better hook - what's his character motivation? if it's greed, promise of gold will drive him forward, not simple curiosity
c) is an ass who will challenge your authority just because so, he will try to control the game and turn it into a contest between him and DM, either you will use your DM powers to subjugate him or he will continue contesting your world and ideas, both are bad and will break the game.

If it's option c, I'd just find another player, from my experience they don't change, it's some kind of insecurity and/or lack of attention from girls/parents he wants to shake off in virtual world that you are in no position to fix. Roleplaying is great fun, but everyone needs to want to play the same game.

I wish you luck in finding more players, try to find someone with strong character (high Charisma ;) ) that will put this guy on the back seat and maybe he'll understand or just resign. If there are four players and one of them is not interested in following the plot, the other three might want to check out the lightning strikes and he can go back to sleep and not play your adventure. Laters! If there are only two players, half of the team doing mutiny is bad.

[NaughtyTiger]

snip

this

no DnD is better than bad DnD
(although, i still play AL so i don't practice what i preach)

but no friend sucks worse than bad friend


so, no you can't kick him out, but you can
talk to him out of game.
find a different game where you aren't DMing
find a different group for DnD, and do something different with mr too cool.

[Man_Over_Game]

Lol, just realized a cliché plot hook that I've used that would totally work.

They go through portal that takes them to another world. BAM, all of his experience and tales of adventure and OP'ness don't mean jack.

Only catch is, it pretty much nullifies anyone's background and it scraps your current world, but it does fix the problem.

Alternatively, you could go with Chrono Cross's idea of shuffling between two nearly identical worlds. One where they're powerful and relevant, and the other where they are dead, lost, useless but the rest of the world is better off (or something).

Chrono Cross used this weird idea that the main character was exactly at a 50% chance mark at a particular moment in time that determined his life or death, which allowed him to open wormholes from the world where he's alive to the world where he's dead, and influence both worlds separately. It got really weird when you considered that he could bring friends along, but it was still a pretty cool idea.

My point is, it would be a way to nullify the power level of his background (that you kinda confirmed was established by now), without scrapping your entire plot/world.

[Ihazturtlez]

A few things to help clear more stuff up:

He will literally die if he doesn't go up the hill. The entire town is planned to be destroyed in the coming fight.
I have already promised his character money and his deepest desires if he continues to help, which he decided to go against even though his entire character is built around greed.
His ideal definitely seems to be to challenge everything that happens just because he can and this is my first time DMing, and I'm not including the fact that he already is trying to tell me what I should do in terms of rolls and success DCs.
He's the type of player that will "try" to invest time into his character, but get bored of him shortly after and try to get him killed to roll a new one (He's done this I think 3 times in other campaigns).
The dragon is planned to get killed in the fight against the BBEG, mainly to demonstrate his power, so I can't really do anything to have the dragon do after this fight, unless someone else has another idea.

I want to get rid of this character, but not necessarily the player, unless he constantly demonstrates that he has no will to continue the actual storyline and would rather further his own greed, which he will be sorely disappointed will be leaving him soon when the town gets destroyed.

[Keravath]

Its hard to judge a situation from just a few words. :)

However,

1) If the character tries to introduce back story elements that don't fit then make it clear to the character that they don't fit, don't make sense and won't happen. Leading a crime ring? Hired to steal things by other countries? For a low level character, this sounds more like delusions of grandeur than a back story. It also sounds like an idea from an 8-12 year old :) .. especially given the unlikelihood for a low level character. I think the suggestion by another poster as ascribing this to grandiose exaggeration and lies is probably a good approach.

2) Trying to call out a silver dragon could be just stupidity or a character that has no sense. (assuming the character knew that it was a dragon). On the other hand, if they knew it was a good aligned silver dragon then the character might realize that he could potentially go quite far before the creature would take any retaliatory action since the dragon probably doesn't want to just kill the rather unintelligent humanoid. However, the dragon could have taken some action.

3) The lightning striking a building repeatedly is a different situation. Yes, you intended it as a plot device. However, the reaction of the character to roll over and go back to sleep is hardly surprising either unless you've left out some details.

Why would some character WANT to go investigate lightning striking a building on a mountain in the middle of the night? It sounds cool when you're the DM ... but honestly, unless there was some reason for this event to be significant to the characters ... many folks might decide to ignore it and investigate in the morning ... especially if they are hurt, down on resources and the event interrupts a long rest. Investigating something that can control and direct lightning as a low level character when you aren't even at full health ... unless there is an overwhelming reason why this is a necessary course of action ... likely doesn't make sense.


4) The bigger red flag I see is splitting the party. You only have two characters/players. Anything you run into will have a decent chance of killing even a 4th level character. In addition, the DM has to split the game between the actions of the two separated characters which slows the game down for each of the players since there are large gaps in play as a result. Sometimes it can make sense (both mechanically and from a role play point of view) to split a party but most of the time it doesn't.


Finally, just from a story point of view, why would a dragon be asking for the help of these characters? They aren't even all that good at what they do ... so why ask them? And what happens if they say no? D&D is a role playing game, the characters do have license to make decisions as they see fit ... not just the ones that fit your plot line ... so one of the characters is self centered and has no interest in helping out this dragon. Is he being offered payment? Some sort of reward? Since the silver dragon is unlikely to kill him for refusing .. is there a consequence if he says no?

I think this is one aspect that you, as the DM, need to work on. The cool factors in the adventure have to make sense from both your perspective as a DM and from the character perspective. Why would the characters want to take on some sort of risky task requested by this dragon guy who seems to run the city? Why does this guy even care about the characters? Why should the characters care about why he is even talking to them?

Here is one possible tack: "The dragon says to the rogue ... I can see that one day you would like to be a great rogue ... it is too bad you are such a pathetic example today ... however, I have a task, which might be accomplished by someone with even such poor skills as yours ... it would save me some time and I will even give you and your partner <enter some reward> ... you might even learn something ... so if you would one day like to become the great rogue that you dream to be you might want to consider it".

- thus the request from the dragon then explains why he wants the characters to take on the task ... offers them a modest reward (you should not have started the rogue with "a fair chunk of money" since it is usually unrealistic without a specific background and makes it harder for you to provide incentives to the characters) ... appeals to the rogues vanity and explains that such missions will increase his skills and makes it clear that the rogue is currently weak and useless.

[Keravath]

A few things to help clear more stuff up:

He will literally die if he doesn't go up the hill. The entire town is planned to be destroyed in the coming fight.
I have already promised his character money and his deepest desires if he continues to help, which he decided to go against even though his entire character is built around greed.
His ideal definitely seems to be to challenge everything that happens just because he can and this is my first time DMing, and I'm not including the fact that he already is trying to tell me what I should do in terms of rolls and success DCs.
He's the type of player that will "try" to invest time into his character, but get bored of him shortly after and try to get him killed to roll a new one (He's done this I think 3 times in other campaigns).
The dragon is planned to get killed in the fight against the BBEG, mainly to demonstrate his power, so I can't really do anything to have the dragon do after this fight, unless someone else has another idea.

I want to get rid of this character, but not necessarily the player, unless he constantly demonstrates that he has no will to continue the actual storyline and would rather further his own greed, which he will be sorely disappointed will be leaving him soon when the town gets destroyed.


1) Based on your comments above ... the problem is the player and not the character. So it is the player you will need to deal with in the end and not the character.

2) "He will literally die if he doesn't go up the hill. The entire town is planned to be destroyed in the coming fight."

Is there ANY way at all for the players to have any fore-shadowing of this? If not, then the characters have NO reason to go up the hill and will probably just die when the town is destroyed.

3) The player has to WANT to play. It sounds like this one doesn't really and promising the character the moon is not a good way to start.

4) You made the comment that you are a first time DM which is probably part of the reason for some of the difficulties ... but you have to start somewhere :)
- the characters are level 4 - the silver dragon and whatever kills it and destroys the town are likely challenges for a full party of level 20 characters. I realize that the characters aren't expected to stop the BBEG at this point. This is probably some sort of theatre to set up the rest of the campaign?

However, this could be addressed by having lightning start striking all over the town. The characters realize they are in imminent danger as buildings start to collapse and perhaps they join the swarms of people fleeing the town watching the BBEG fight the silver dragon defending the town. In the morning there is a smoking crater.

BUT ... you still need a plot hook for the characters ... WHY do they get involved? A greedy rogue is unlikely to have any motivation to go up against such a powerful villain and there is no good risk/reward option. Maybe as known associates of the silver dragon, the minions of the villain will be hunting for the characters to finish them off? This makes countering the bad guy a matter of simple survival. There are tons of ways you can take the story line but a skill you want to develop as a DM is the ability to see the storyline from both the DM and NPC perspective as well as from the PC perspective and put in reasons why the characters would want to get involved.

[Asmotherion]

Oh, what tragedy. A player is being cocky, and you, a DM with ultimate power cannot handle it?

Seriously, nothing is wrong with a Player being at least a bit cocky. Not everyone is a happy camper, you know that, right?

On the other hand, you seem not to have any control over your game world, and you need to re-establish that. You allowed a Backstory you were not on board with; That's your fault, not his. Now, you can't just go do-overs, that's weak on your part. Work with what you have:

If "I throw an adventure hook in your way" does not work, as he seems to go "I just look the other way", you can just "I hook you to the adventure in a way you're directly involved and there is leverage to make you compremise" wich works wonders with this kind of characters. If he handles it in a stupid way and ends up dying, it's on him, not you. It's ok to be cocky, but even cocky people have a sence of self preservation, or end up dying gruesome deaths (or worse).

In your example, perhaps the questgiver represents someone who has proof he was the one who robed some king, and now blackmails him from afar to do his bidding, or he will reveal his identity. That's one way I would handle it at least.

IF he DOES end up dying, tell him he could not handle such a character, and ask him to play something... more on board with the party.

[Ihazturtlez]

I understand some of what he is doing could be because of my inexperience and he's just exploiting mistakes I make. Even so, that shouldn't be his motive. He shouldn't deliberately undo what I have done in the story.

And the dragon is asking them for help, even though they are only level 4, they are obviously stronger than the common folk. No one has the special abilities that they have, and those abilities were demonstrated in his field of view, so he knows. And the Rogue was offered, in the dragon's words, "Help fulfill his biggest desire with a promise of gold." And as for showing that they are weak, that's what my BBEG will do. He will talk down to them as his henchman honestly wrecks the party, exploiting how weak they really are.

[Ihazturtlez]

Oh, what tragedy. A player is being cocky, and you, a DM with ultimate power cannot handle it?

Seriously, nothing is wrong with a Player being at least a bit cocky. Not everyone is a happy camper, you know that, right?

On the other hand, you seem not to have any control over your game world, and you need to re-establish that. You allowed a Backstory you were not on board with; That's your fault, not his. Now, you can't just go do-overs, that's weak on your part. Work with what you have:

If "I throw an adventure hook in your way" does not work, as he seems to go "I just look the other way", you can just "I hook you to the adventure in a way you're directly involved and there is leverage to make you compremise" wich works wonders with this kind of characters. If he handles it in a stupid way and ends up dying, it's on him, not you. It's ok to be cocky, but even cocky people have a sence of self preservation, or end up dying gruesome deaths (or worse).

In your example, perhaps the questgiver represents someone who has proof he was the one who robed some king, and now blackmails him from afar to do his bidding, or he will reveal his identity. That's one way I would handle it at least.

IF he DOES end up dying, tell him he could not handle such a character, and ask him to play something... more on board with the party.
The backstory he had TOLD me was allowed. Him tacking on the "fact" that he worked for other countries later on threw a wrench into things, and puts me into a bind. Do I change my story to fit that, or do I make him rework his character to fit the fact he didn't do that?

[Pex]

As much as I want this character to be gone, he would have none of it. He'd throw a fit, and probably kick me out considering I'm using his books and we play in his house.

There's a reason DMs prefer running games in their own house.

If that's how the player will react then you have your answer. The player is being a jerk through his character. If he won't change his ways then you need to decide for yourself if you still want to play with him. If you do end the game you'll have to accept he's likely to consider it your fault. Jerk players don't blame themselves until they're ready to change.

[Ihazturtlez]

There's a reason DMs prefer running games in their own house.

If that's how the player will react then you have your answer. The player is being a jerk through his character. If he won't change his ways then you need to decide for yourself if you still want to play with him. If you do end the game you'll have to accept he's likely to consider it your fault. Jerk players don't blame themselves until they're ready to change.
I'd LOVE to run the game in my house with my own materials, but my family is poor, and his family is not, so I have to use his books and his house. He also has no responsibilities at his own home like I do, so it's easier in every sense other than dealing with him to just host it there.

[NaughtyTiger]

this is a player problem.
it should not be handled in-game.
you don't have to be a jerk, just explain that you need his help for this to be fun.
if it ain't fun for you or him, don't do it.

additionally, you can undo his added backstory.
or just ignore it, cuz it won't come into play unless you create the opportunity.


just a side note:
check your local library. mine has the full suite of hardcovers available for borrowing.
you really only need the PHB.

[Merudo]

While I do believe the player is an ass, try to look from his perspective.

He gave you a storyline hook (he challenged the dragon) and you basically ignored it.

Is it this surprising that when you give him a storyline hook (the lighting bolt in the distance) he ignores it in return?

IMO a better approach would have the dragon agree to the duel. But the dragon is busy, so he'll only agree to a duel for an appropriate wager: if the PC loses, he will do the Dragon's task. If the PC wins, the dragon will hand over the city and its riches. Then, have the dragon beat the PC to a pulp in a single round. That would have (1) indulged the player in the duel, (2) humbled him, and (3) gave the party a really strong plot hook.

At this point if the PC reneges his wager, just have the dragon lock him up until he changes his mind. He really has no ground to complain.

[ErHo]

Solution: Make it clear to your players, that they are supposed to create an adventurer. Not someone character who wants a quiet life and has to be dragged out to every quest or some selfish **** that has to be charmed or bought by the group to explore the world with them.



Oh... Tanis, Flint, Bilbo? Go home you guys are a couple of wet blankets! :smallsmile:

[Pelle]

[LIST=1]
He will literally die if he doesn't go up the hill. The entire town is planned to be destroyed in the coming fight.


The player don't know that, though. Were you not planning on having them killed and resurrected anyways? If you already have special ideas for that, you have a backup in case he don't leave and is killed...

[JackPhoenix]

Oh... Tanis, Flint, Bilbo? Go home you guys are a couple of wet blankets! :smallsmile:

Those are characters with in the story with no agency of their own, and not player characters who are supposed to be participating in fun group activity.

[Vorpalchicken]

Why would any player character tear himself out of bed while still recovering from being half ripped to death by wolves to get closer to a very dangerous phenomenon that seems to be staying in one place far away from where he is resting?

[Corran]

You player wants to play mission impossible and you want to play lord of the rings. It's very important for all the players to be on board with the campaign theme, assuming you want to carry on involving them. So talk with the player about this. Tell him that he needs to find a motivation for his character. Try to help him if he has any ideas that might be easy for you to incorporate into the story. If this can't be done, then either he changes character, or you change the campaign story. Or someone else takes over as the DM. Or you drop him. Any of that is better than keeping a player who is not having fun and he is very eager to show it.

[Finback]

Most dragons can take the form of anything they want. It'd be right up the alley of a blue/green dragon to pretend to be an ally when they're actually brokering a deal with all of the people he stole from.


You've just given me a GREAT idea for an NPC. A blue dragon LN bounty hunter. Why? Boredom. Utter boredom with the existing status quo of defending territory, hoarding treasure and constant assaults by would-be heroes. So now they're "slumming it". Living in a human city, pretending to be a human, spending their time hunting. They already know they're smarter and stronger, but the fun of drawing out the chase, making the prey think they're safe now... deliciouss.....

[Finback]

They go through portal that takes them to another world. BAM, all of his experience and tales of adventure and OP'ness don't mean jack.

Only catch is, it pretty much nullifies anyone's background and it scraps your current world, but it does fix the problem.



One thing would be to do this short term - get the McGuffin they need for this plot arc, and when they return, his crime empire has been overthrown by his second in command and a bounty put on his head. Now the organisation he created is using all its resources against him - if he made it TOO well, then he's loaded the dice against himself.

[JackPhoenix]

You've just given me a GREAT idea for an NPC. A blue dragon LN bounty hunter. Why? Boredom. Utter boredom with the existing status quo of defending territory, hoarding treasure and constant assaults by would-be heroes. So now they're "slumming it". Living in a human city, pretending to be a human, spending their time hunting. They already know they're smarter and stronger, but the fun of drawing out the chase, making the prey think they're safe now... deliciouss.....

Blue dragons can't change into humanoids. But you've reminded me of an incident from one of my older games... the party met disguised, old blue dragon who used Alter Self to blend with the humanoids. In PF, Alter Self changes you to humanoid shape, no matter what's your creature type, while keeping your stats, and if the humanoid is medium-sized, you'll get +2 Str on top. The dragon had 30+ Str naturally. The party sorcerer provoked her into being punched through the wall.

[Finback]

Blue dragons can't change into humanoids.

A wizard did it! (also, if a blue dragon can appear as a giant in SKT, it's narratively acceptable in my games)

(I've done similar before. I had a purple dragon NPC who was working to depose a stable government, and gave her sorcerer spells, as her whole cover identity was this rich noblewoman who didn't truck well with anyone disagreeing. She outright lightning blasted the commander of the guard who the PCs had worked with to defend a border province fort that was understaffed and underfunded from an army of gnolls, because she "abandoned her post" and made the noblewoman look bad (in her mind).* The PCs infiltrated her mansion, fought her guards, and followed the trail down into the catacombs below the mansion, rather than the lofty penthouses. It was hit and run tactics in the dark, with her alternating her forms, making them think they had a different fight on their hands. When they took her down, it left them all reeling and realising how much bigger the stakes had been.
(best bit was how Bahamut appeared in a vision to the dragonborn, telling her this noblewoman, known as Her Majesty had to be stopped. So double fun when it turned out the vision was actually TIAMAT wanting this pretender to her throne taken out. Nobody claims to be draconic royalty while she's around. So now the PC had Tiamat saying "My blessings are on you", which terrified her.)


* vale, Captain Corrabonna, defender of Fort Nevergonnaseemywifeandkidsagain

[King of Nowhere]

Seems to me the player isn't really interested in the game. Assuming you're friends, I suggest you play a different game. D&D is not for everyone. And you'll never be able to lure him with promise of loot and glory, as he just doesn't care much about it all.

Also, regarding menoverplayer
no gaming is better than bad gaming, but bad friends is better than no friends, I strongly disagree. Quite the reverse, actually. Bad friends can ruin people much worse than bad gaming. I've seen several people dragged down because they dealt with the wrong kind of freinds and were too desperate to look for better company. While people who refuse bad company will generally find better company eventually. That's my experience, too bad there's no hard statistical data about something so difficult to determine.
But it doesn't look the case here. This seems a problem player, but there are no strong signs of a problem person. Probably he's used to rpg videogames, where he is led through the plot by the nose and he can mess with the world in any way he wants until the program outright stops him. Maybe he's reacting to you just like some videogamers try to kill important characters just to see if they can? Maybe he expects to be clearly led by the nose?


The backstory he had TOLD me was allowed. Him tacking on the "fact" that he worked for other countries later on threw a wrench into things, and puts me into a bind. Do I change my story to fit that, or do I make him rework his character to fit the fact he didn't do that?

There is no bind whatsoever. He told you a backstory. Then he told a different backstory to the other player. What he told the other player is not true. Anything you did not approve is not true. As a DM, you can't let players just overrule you. You should try to accept and incorporate their ideas whenever possible, because it will make the story more engagin for them. But if one deliberately goes out of his way to do things behind your back? That's a big NO. Can't be allowed to get away with it.

Also, I may be reading this wrong, but when I read the part "they must be on top of the hill to survive", it feels too much like railroading. And sometimes railroading makes perfect sense, especially in what is likely a pivotal plot moment, but not if the players can't know it. And i'm sure there are many other ways the characters can conceivably survive the destruction that happens below. Finally, I agree with other posters that when you are resting to recover from your wounds, going to investigate something potentially dangerous that is happening elsewhere is a very dumb move.

[Ihazturtlez]

While I do believe the player is an ass, try to look from his perspective.

He gave you a storyline hook (he challenged the dragon) and you basically ignored it.

Is it this surprising that when you give him a storyline hook (the lighting bolt in the distance) he ignores it in return?

IMO a better approach would have the dragon agree to the duel. But the dragon is busy, so he'll only agree to a duel for an appropriate wager: if the PC loses, he will do the Dragon's task. If the PC wins, the dragon will hand over the city and its riches. Then, have the dragon beat the PC to a pulp in a single round. That would have (1) indulged the player in the duel, (2) humbled him, and (3) gave the party a really strong plot hook.

At this point if the PC reneges his wager, just have the dragon lock him up until he changes his mind. He really has no ground to complain.
This would be a good idea, but the dragon doesn't believe in himself fighting unless his city depends on it. He won't fight a single man just to appease him.
And from a player perspective, I don't think its necessarily surprising more than just annoying. If I'm given a story hook, I'm biting.

[Ihazturtlez]

Seems to me the player isn't really interested in the game. Assuming you're friends, I suggest you play a different game. D&D is not for everyone. And you'll never be able to lure him with promise of loot and glory, as he just doesn't care much about it all.

Also, regarding menoverplayer , I strongly disagree. Quite the reverse, actually. Bad friends can ruin people much worse than bad gaming. I've seen several people dragged down because they dealt with the wrong kind of freinds and were too desperate to look for better company. While people who refuse bad company will generally find better company eventually. That's my experience, too bad there's no hard statistical data about something so difficult to determine.
But it doesn't look the case here. This seems a problem player, but there are no strong signs of a problem person. Probably he's used to rpg videogames, where he is led through the plot by the nose and he can mess with the world in any way he wants until the program outright stops him. Maybe he's reacting to you just like some videogamers try to kill important characters just to see if they can? Maybe he expects to be clearly led by the nose?



There is no bind whatsoever. He told you a backstory. Then he told a different backstory to the other player. What he told the other player is not true. Anything you did not approve is not true. As a DM, you can't let players just overrule you. You should try to accept and incorporate their ideas whenever possible, because it will make the story more engagin for them. But if one deliberately goes out of his way to do things behind your back? That's a big NO. Can't be allowed to get away with it.

Also, I may be reading this wrong, but when I read the part "they must be on top of the hill to survive", it feels too much like railroading. And sometimes railroading makes perfect sense, especially in what is likely a pivotal plot moment, but not if the players can't know it. And i'm sure there are many other ways the characters can conceivably survive the destruction that happens below. Finally, I agree with other posters that when you are resting to recover from your wounds, going to investigate something potentially dangerous that is happening elsewhere is a very dumb move.

I've dropped hints regarding the whole "the mountain or die" idea, and they picked up on it and openly acknowledged it with each other.
I had also hinted at an other-worldy (or heavenly) spectator being present, then told them that when they were woken up, they felt as if they had gone through a full rest and healed fully, trying to further push that there is an upper power on their side watching. Obviously I need to do things better, but he has played DnD just about as long as I have, so he knows what to expect from a game.
The monk told me he is enjoying the campaign, so I'm not sure if I am actually DMing wrong or what. I will let them make more of their own decisions, but the start of the actual story arc is atop that mountain, so they need to get there either way.

Edit; One more thing; they will be the only ones in the city that have survived, and the reason they survive up there is because of the spectators. I don't know if I stated in this post or not, but the mountain is host to the "Hall of Heroes", and thats what the spectators are. They are the heroes, and they are choosing these 2 to fight the resurrecting darkness, and they get their power from that Hall.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

We just had our first session last night and it went fairly well. They're a party of 2 for now, of a Monk and a Rogue. I allowed the Rogue to start off with a fair chunk of money, a friend that helps him in his thievery, and a magic item. I also allowed him to be the head of a crime ring. He decided to leave out that in his backstory, despite the world being at peace, countries hire him to do dirty work for them in other countries, such as steal items and assassinate. I don't really like that, but he established that to the Monk before telling me, and I don't want to stifle his creativity all though it doesn't really fit with the world. I also introduced an Ancient Silver Dragon that morphs into a humanoid form to them. The monk was surprised by it, as he should be never seeing a dragon before, but what the Rogue does is immediately challenge him to a fight (the PCs are level 4 by the way), and being simply bored by the dragon. Later on when the dragon asks for their help doing a chore, the Rogue denies him completely and tries to split the party up in order to try to steal from the castle while the Monk had already accepted the offer to help. Then even later on, after the Rogue nearly died to some worgs, I allowed them to sleep and get the effects of a long rest, but being woken in the night to a constant lightning striking the top of a building on top of a mountain. I ask them "what do you do?", and the Rogue says "I've seen weirder. I go back to sleep." That's what really upset me honestly. He plays his character like an uppity prick even though he got put in his place by some worgs. Is it just his character and I need to put him in his place again, or is it the player just being an ass?

what you have to do is to create a scenario where the characters audacity brings him trouble. What I did last time that happened (the character was a fighter who was a little too proud of his abilities.) I then had an old drow come up to him in the streets and tell him that he would meet his end due to his ego. He got pissed and tried to kill the drow thinking he was weak but instead got his pompous @$$ kicked and now drow hate him.

I did not expect him to fight but it worked anyways. He stopped being a jerk.

You could also have the guy cursed.

[SirGraystone]

I would have the dragon rolls a grapples attack which should be easy with his high strenght. Then describe how the dragon press the thief to the ground by resting his paw on him, they say something like "Be quiet child while I talk with the monk", and just hold the thief down for a time. If the thief try to escape or move just do automatic claw damage on him since the dragon already hold him. Call it a ready action from the dragon.

But I wouldn't worry that much after only 1 session, the whole being hired by countries I would limit to being hire by 1 country only and do minor job like assassinate some minor noble or tax collector not a duke or king (He's only level 4 after all).

And if not stopping the BEGG mean the city is destroy... well let the city burn.

[Consensus]

Didn't I see this campaign concept being discussed in a thread somewhere, the talk of the hall of heroes on a mountain struck with lightning and the villain killing a dragon to show his strength seem like something I've seen around here...

[Ihazturtlez]

Didn't I see this campaign concept being discussed in a thread somewhere, the talk of the hall of heroes on a mountain struck with lightning and the villain killing a dragon to show his strength seem like something I've seen around here...
It's a thread I had earlier I think last week talking about how to actually go about showing the party his power, and went from the BBEG himself wiping the party to him killing the dragon and his henchman KOing the party. I started it pre-campaign, but now we've already started and I needed advice on this player.

[Unoriginal]

Didn't I see this campaign concept being discussed in a thread somewhere, the talk of the hall of heroes on a mountain struck with lightning and the villain killing a dragon to show his strength seem like something I've seen around here...

It was discussed a few days earlier.

[Pelle]

Yes, the premise was a bit railroady introduction to the campaign, which seems like a particulary bad match with this kind of player.

Try just bringing encounters to him with no rhyme or reason, or run a completly improvised sandbox. Preparing a story in advance will just be a waste of time, this player is going to derail it as much as he can.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, the premise was a bit railroady introduction to the campaign, which seems like a particulary bad match with this kind of player.

Try just bringing encounters to him with no rhyme or reason, or run a completly improvised sandbox. Preparing a story in advance will just be a waste of time, this player is going to derail it as much as he can.

Most likely to be 100% true.

If for some reasons you still want to play this despite the fact no game is better than bad game, OP, just give the "chosen one" job to a pair of NPCs, and have them do the epic quest while the PCs go around doing odd jobs, as they gave up their shot at it.

[Spriteless]

This would be a good idea, but the dragon doesn't believe in himself fighting unless his city depends on it.

Why would you decide this? You shouldn't railroad yourself so much. Maybe the dragon would be OK with tanking a few hits and knocking a guy out, but not with unleashing his full strength upon every lil' humanoid that passes through.

My own style is: If the players won't bite the plot hook, they will stumble upon the plot, wherever they do decide to go. If the players don't know about it yet, then it is mutable. Even though I'm changing everything around on the fly, the appearance of consistency is enough for most players, and those who are bothered about it can usually be appeased by saying you are changing the world to be more fun, not to cheat players of fun.

And, about the village getting blowed up... you could change that too. Helping evacuate a village is a very heroic deed. It could be fun for the players. They can make friends who will do them favors later, amongst the refugees. It will and get the players the idea that they are good guys, even the mercenary center-of-attention type can be given a chance to show compassion for THOSE INNOCENT CHILDREN BEING BURNT OH NOoOoOoOOO!!1 (or to show he lacks such compassion).

Not to say that the other guy isn't without blame. But, hey, you are both new to this, so you both made mistakes. It happens. Just, like, have a conversation, ask what they liked, what you could do better, then after taking a few hits say (politely!) that he could take things more seriously too.