Mindflayer Attributes

[Pleh]

So I'm prepping a Mindflayer boss for an upcoming game and I'm trying to make sure I add (wizard) class levels correctly, but something important to consider is which set of attributes I should use, because the MM lists a CR 9 Illithid with one set of Attributes and the 9th level Sorcerer with a different set of Attributes. Did I miss the reason their stats are so far advanced with only 9 class levels? That accounts for a couple extra points if they're using the character creation rules, but not the amount that show up in the stats.

I considered Old Age modifiers, but the only stat that decreases between the standard Illithid and the sorcerer is strength. Are they switching from Non Elite Array to Elite Array? Or is it just all made up however the makers wanted it to be without regards to any rules? I'm just confused and I want to make sure I justify how the boss is getting its stats.

[Nifft]

So I'm prepping a Mindflayer boss for an upcoming game and I'm trying to make sure I add (wizard) class levels correctly, but something important to consider is which set of attributes I should use, because the MM lists a CR 9 Illithid with one set of Attributes and the 9th level Sorcerer with a different set of Attributes. Did I miss the reason their stats are so far advanced with only 9 class levels? That accounts for a couple extra points if they're using the character creation rules, but not the amount that show up in the stats.

I considered Old Age modifiers, but the only stat that decreases between the standard Illithid and the sorcerer is strength. Are they switching from Non Elite Array to Elite Array? Or is it just all made up however the makers wanted it to be without regards to any rules? I'm just confused and I want to make sure I justify how the boss is getting its stats.

Monsters with class levels get to use the Elite Array (15,14,13,12,10,8) instead of the Nonelite Array.

You should feel free to change the monster's stats in a different direction -- more Int, less Cha -- as compared to the Sorcerer version.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You'd get a lot more mileage using the psionic illithids from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. They gain effective levels in telepath instead of SLAs, which stack with actual levels of telepath and manifesting PrCs.

[Pleh]

Thanks guys. I think that clears it up

[Thurbane]

Monsters with class levels get to use the Elite Array (15,14,13,12,10,8) instead of the Nonelite Array.

You should feel free to change the monster's stats in a different direction -- more Int, less Cha -- as compared to the Sorcerer version.

This.

Take the elite array, and add the following ability mods: +2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha.

It gets an additional ability score point at 12HD, 16HD, 20HD etc.

[Inevitability]

It gets an additional ability score point at 12HD, 16HD, 20HD etc.

Do note that if a monster has 8 RHD, that doesn't mean you get to add two random stat points to it. Only when the 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th level is a class level are ability scores increased.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Do note that if a monster has 8 RHD, that doesn't mean you get to add two random stat points to it. Only when the 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th level is a class level are ability scores increased.More to the point, the ability score increases are already factored into the creature's listed ability scores.

[Jeraa]

Do note that if a monster has 8 RHD, that doesn't mean you get to add two random stat points to it. Only when the 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th level is a class level are ability scores increased.

Incorrect. From the Monster Manual (pg 290):


Ability Score Improvement: Whenever a monster reaches a number of Hit Dice divisible by 4, it improves one ability score by 1 point. For example, a lammasu of 7 Hit Dice increased to 14 Hit Dice gains an ability score improvement at 8 HD and another one at 12 HD. Monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

For most things (ability improvements, skill caps, feats, etc.) , it hit dice are treated as equal to a character level. Monster entries already account for those boosts their hit dice have already earned them, but an 8 HD monster that gains 4 additional racial hit die or class levels again qualifies for another ability boost (because they have a total of 12 hit dice/levels).

[RedWarlock]

Incorrect. From the Monster Manual (pg 290):



For most things (ability improvements, skill caps, feats, etc.) , it hit dice are treated as equal to a character level. Monster entries already account for those boosts their hit dice have already earned them, but an 8 HD monster that gains 4 additional racial hit die or class levels again qualifies for another ability boost (because they have a total of 12 hit dice/levels).

Your MM quote is exactly what he's talking about. The last sentence:


Monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

Those "two random points" are the 4th and 8th level ASIs. The Mindflayer doesn't get new ones, because they're already included in the stats.

[Jeraa]

Your MM quote is exactly what he's talking about. The last sentence:



Those "two random points" are the 4th and 8th level ASIs. The Mindflayer doesn't get new ones, because they're already included in the stats.

Except that isn't what he was saying. Reread his last sentence.


Do note that if a monster has 8 RHD, that doesn't mean you get to add two random stat points to it. Only when the 4th/8th/12th/16th/20th level is a class level are ability scores increased.

As the rules state, it doesn't have to be a class level to grant the boost. So it is wrong, and I corrected him.

[RedWarlock]

Except that isn't what he was saying. Reread his last sentence.



As the rules state, it doesn't have to be a class level to grant the boost. So it is wrong, and I corrected him.

You’re misinterpreting him (assuming it’s a him, on mobile). He’s saying that those two boosts are already accounted for in the MF’s stats. Yes they exist, but they’re not free to be put anywhere, they’re already done.

[Nifft]

You'd get a lot more mileage using the psionic illithids from the Expanded Psionics Handbook. They gain effective levels in telepath instead of SLAs, which stack with actual levels of telepath and manifesting PrCs.

Yeah, that's a better designed version.

If this game lacks Psionics for some reason -- and IMHO the Psionic rules are no worse than spellcasting, and usually a bit more balanced -- but if your game doesn't want to include Psionics, then I'd suggest using the stats for the Psionic Mindflayer but substituting in Enchanter levels instead of Telepath. The stats are still focused on Int so you're good just keeping those as-is.

[Crake]

You’re misinterpreting him (assuming it’s a him, on mobile). He’s saying that those two boosts are already accounted for in the MF’s stats. Yes they exist, but they’re not free to be put anywhere, they’re already done.

Nah, you're the one misinterpreting. He's not talking about the 4th/8th HD, he's taking about the 12th HD. If an 8HD monster was advanced by 4 racial HD, they would still get the ability score boost, despite the original source of this side discussion saying that only class levels result in ability boosts.

[PrismCat21]

You’re misinterpreting him (assuming it’s a him, on mobile).
No he's not. He's going by what was actually said.


He’s saying that those two boosts are already accounted for in the MF’s stats. Yes they exist, but they’re not free to be put anywhere, they’re already done.
That may be what was 'meant', but it's not what was said.
It's the basic difference between RAW and RAI. One we know, the other is speculation.
You don't get to decide what someone else 'really meant' and tell another person they are wrong for not agreeing with you.


Nah, you're the one misinterpreting. He's not talking about the 4th/8th HD, he's taking about the 12th HD. If an 8HD monster was advanced by 4 racial HD, they would still get the ability score boost, despite the original source of this side discussion saying that only class levels result in ability boosts.
Thank you for basic reading comprehension. It's getting harder to find people with this skillset.

[Pleh]

Yeah, that's a better designed version.

If this game lacks Psionics for some reason -- and IMHO the Psionic rules are no worse than spellcasting, and usually a bit more balanced -- but if your game doesn't want to include Psionics, then I'd suggest using the stats for the Psionic Mindflayer but substituting in Enchanter levels instead of Telepath. The stats are still focused on Int so you're good just keeping those as-is.

It's a great suggestion, but I was reaching for a Simulacrum casting mindflayer. Haven't heard of a Psionic Simulacrum.

(Yes, the party encounter's an epic Mind Flayer's half HD double to foreshadow the final boss).

[OgresAreCute]

It's a great suggestion, but I was reaching for a Simulacrum casting mindflayer. Haven't heard of a Psionic Simulacrum.

(Yes, the party encounter's an epic Mind Flayer's half HD double to foreshadow the final boss).

Psionic Mind Flayer using the Erudite variant of Psion and Spell to Power to cast simulacrum?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

And depending on what he's doing with simulacrum, the mind seed power could work, as well.

[PrismCat21]

Just give him the spell and say it's a psionic version when the Players question it.

[Pleh]

And depending on what he's doing with simulacrum, the mind seed power could work, as well.

I kinda see what you're getting at, but simulacrum is 7th level and mind seed is 8th.

Plus, there's a whole backstory thing that he's sort of an evil (and older) version of the party wizard (there may or may not be time travel shenanigans involved).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I kinda see what you're getting at, but simulacrum is 7th level and mind seed is 8th.

Plus, there's a whole backstory thing that he's sort of an evil (and older) version of the party wizard (there may or may not be time travel shenanigans involved).The younger "wizard" is the level-drained, amnesiac mind seeded byproduct of the older one? Maybe the older one is a cerebremancer/mind mage.

[Pleh]

The younger "wizard" is the level-drained, amnesiac mind seeded byproduct of the older one? Maybe the older one is a cerebremancer/mind mage.

The story is already pretty set. I was being facetious with my hinting.

The PC is from a timeline where he was the first to discover time travel, which he was motivated to do in order to win the war against the illithid and save his wife from dying in the war. In using time travel, he kills his wife in the new timeline (no physical remains to clue him in) and quickly ascertains that using time travel has changed the timeline in unpredictable ways and de-aged him back to an earlier level of competency.

What he hasn't learned yet is that he started in a universe with a linear timeline and his particular method of time travel fractured the spacetime into a large number of alternate timelines, but since it's a multiverse not native to this plane, all the alternate timelines are centered on him as a focal point. Basically, the further from himself you get in the universe, the more consistency there exists across timelines. The closer you get, the more variances.

An evil deity of chaos and monsters gave him breadcrumbs to help him accomplish all this. One of the alternate timelines, in reaching for power to defeat the Illithid, halfway became one. He hacked the illithid reproductive process, infecting himself with the brain squid, but he retained mental control, reversing the balance of power so that he gains mind flayer abilities. He started a shadow war to win by political maneuvering within the mind flayer society, but gradually has become more and more illithid in his thoughts and practices.

Neither the PC nor the boss will recognize each other instantly, but I'm hoping for a dramatic reveal partway through the fight when one of them tries to dispel the other's magic and the universe has a momentary lurch and the spell is dismissed as if they were one and the same person.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Given the weirdness involved, how about just make it psionic illithid/psion // wizard/PrC gestalt for +2 CR or so?

[Crake]

Psionic Mind Flayer using the Erudite variant of Psion and Spell to Power to cast simulacrum?

I believe there was a discussion about this in another thread, but erudite wouldn't stack with mind flayer telepathy, only Psion (telepath) levels would stack, otherwise they would just stack side by side like any other multiclassing psionic classes.

On another note, if you're happy advancing him up to 9th level casting, he could use reality revision (aka: psionic wish) to duplicate the effects of a simulacrum spell?

[OgresAreCute]

I believe there was a discussion about this in another thread, but erudite wouldn't stack with mind flayer telepathy, only Psion (telepath) levels would stack, otherwise they would just stack side by side like any other multiclassing psionic classes.

On another note, if you're happy advancing him up to 9th level casting, he could use reality revision (aka: psionic wish) to duplicate the effects of a simulacrum spell?

I meant changing the Psionic Mind Flayer to have effective Erudite levels instead of effective Telepath levels.