Scythe Style?

[GuestEleven]

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not typically fond of Homebrew, self-made or otherwise. So the fact that I'm trying to homebrew is pretty astounding.

I'm a total edgelord and have always liked characters that utilize scythes in combat. I have tried to make several scythe wielders in D&D/Pathfinder. Almost every time I have tried I feel as if I was better off just using Greatsword or Greataxe, with the exception of one build. I made a build using monk/rogue that carried a large scythe on his back. I unknowingly took a 3rd party feat that let me Coup de Grace as a swift action, coupled that with Dastardly Finish to let me Coup De Grace stunned foes, and specializing in stunning fist. It was a fun build. (I actually liked scythe in Pathfinder 2e, but my friends and I didn't care for the system as a whole)

My first instinct for 'fixing' scythe was just to bump the damage up to 1d10. On paper it seemed that it may work well.. a little too well.. At that point I think scythe would be performing a little too well maybe? I don't want to make it unbalanced to the point that it outshines other weapons. Enter style feats. This brings me to the whole point of this thread: my own homebrewed style feats to make scythe not feel so underwhelming. Here they are:

Reaping Scythe Style

Benefit(s): When using this style double the critical threat range of all scythes you wield, making their threat range 19-20 x4. Treat this feat as if it were Improved Critical for the purposes of stacking with similar benefits, but not prerequisites In addition, when making a trip attempt against a foe while using this style and the roll results in a natural 20 the foe provokes an Attack of Opportunity from you. You must be wielding a scythe to gain the benefits from this feat.

Reaping Scythe Reave
Benefit(s): While using Reaping Scythe Style, treat all killing blows delivered with a scythe as though it was a successful Coup De Grace attempt. Furthermore, scythes you wield threaten an additional 5 ft as if they had the reach quality.

Reaping Scythe Master

Benefit(s): While using Reaping Scythe Style, treat all scythe's weapon damage as if they were one size cstegory larger. In addition, the threat range increase for scythes you wield increases to 18-20 x4. Furthermore, when confirming a critical strike with a scythe you deal an additional amount of bleed damage equal to the weapon's critical modifier.


So, does it seem balanced enough to you guys? Seems like it would be enjoyable, and it costing 3 feats to really bring online should ensure that it would only be taken by people pursuing the niche and not just dethrone the other two handed weapons. Was thinking about making a similar style making scythes Dex based. Maximum edgelord x10 if using both styles with Master of Many Styles and the stunning fist build I mentioned earlier.

[Knaight]

The scythe absolutely doesn't need this help. The x4 critical modifier is a powerful thing that creates a niche where the scythe is already the best.

[Goaty14]

The scythe absolutely doesn't need this help. The x4 critical modifier is a powerful thing that creates a niche where the scythe is already the best.

+1. I'm a bit more iffy if it's the best per se, but I don't think such a large buff is necessary.

[Falontani]

take exotic weapon prof: kaorti resin greatsword for a 2d6 19-20*4 blade
if the goal is to build up the weapon to be "better" then you don't need to do anything. The Scythe is already a powerful weapon.

2d4 averages 5 damage. 1d10 averages 5.5 damage, if upping the damage dice to a d10 made it too powerful, then you are already wielding a weapon half a damage point behind.

[GuestEleven]

Wow. Are we looking at the same weapon? 2d4 max 8 damage. Longsword in one hand does 1d8, max eight damage. It also crits on 19-20 x2. Yeah scythe is strong the whole five times you might confirm a crit over a campaign. The rest of the time it will be falling behind other weapons. Yeah sure I could push it to crit on 15-20 I think. But this isn't about the whole three builds that can use it to great effect, this is about opening it up further for general use.

I can however see x5 possibly being over the top. But I have made more impressive things with stock tools.

[Knaight]

Wow. Are we looking at the same weapon? 2d4 max 8 damage. Longsword in one hand does 1d8, max eight damage. It also crits on 19-20 x2. Yeah scythe is strong the whole five times you might confirm a crit over a campaign.

Assume that crits confirm half the time (which is pretty bad for a martial character) you get a crit, on average, once every 40 attacks. That's once per 40 rounds initially, down to once per 10 by level 16; less for any build that finds extra weapon attacks somewhere.

19-20 x2 gets +100% damage twice as often as x4 gets 300% damage. Crits add 1.5 times as much damage for the x4 weapon.

That's without getting into the things that really make that crit chance shine - the coup de grace mechanics. There are a number of one round conditions that can leave foes vulnerable to a coup de grace, and every time any of those happens the scythe does heavy damage, then leaves a nice big fortitude DC to not die.

Damage die is also one of the least important things about a weapon. It gets drowned out other factors soon enough, and the scythe gets full power attack, which is one of those factors that causes it to drown out damage die pretty quickly.

[Doctor Awkward]

Wow. Are we looking at the same weapon? 2d4 max 8 damage. Longsword in one hand does 1d8, max eight damage. It also crits on 19-20 x2. Yeah scythe is strong the whole five times you might confirm a crit over a campaign. The rest of the time it will be falling behind other weapons. Yeah sure I could push it to crit on 15-20 I think. But this isn't about the whole three builds that can use it to great effect, this is about opening it up further for general use.

I can however see x5 possibly being over the top. But I have made more impressive things with stock tools.

It's a long background story, but in a campaign once I had the opportunity to perform a coup de grace attempt against a paralyzed barbarian.

I had 14 strength, which meant a +3 bonus to damage from using both hands, and the Power Attack feat for another 3, which doubled to 6 additional damage for using both hands. This eventually translated into 60 damage from the automatic critical hit, and had he survived he would have had to make a DC 70 Fortitude save in order to survive.

This is the kind of thing people are talking about when they say a scythe is already fine.

So anyway...

1) Reaping Scythe Style
Needs a lot of clarification. Is it looking at the touch attack coming up a natural 20? Or the opposed roll?
I would also completely re-write the second sentence to say, "This feat does not stack with Improved Critical or other similar effects."
Beyond that it's either a bit too powerful or a bit underpowered as written. If you have Combat Reflexes and also Improved Trip, it's effectively two attacks one out of every five trip attempts. Without either of those, especially Combat Reflexes, it will do nothing most of the time, especially if your trip attempt is being made as part of another AoO.

2) Reaping Scythe Reave
You are definitely going to have to explain this one a bit more. What is a "killing blow"? Is it an attack that reduces your hit points into the negatives, or below -9? If it's the former, that's a significant increase of the lethality of scythes. If the latter then dead people don't have to make Fortitude saves.
Second, you'll have to clarify the second sentence a bit, a reach weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons) doesn't simply add five feet. It doubles the normal reach of the creature wielding the weapon. This means a large creature with an appropriately-sized scythe would threaten 20 ft, instead of the normal 10 ft. There are also some reach weapons, like the whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip), that threaten a specific range, of 15 ft. in the case of the whip. Which is it?

3) Reaping Scythe Master
I think the biggest problem with most of these feats is that you are defining them in ways that make perfect sense to you, but don't track with the established manual of style in D&D. What is "bleed" damage? Does it count as precision damage for immunity purposes (Fortification and such)? And when you say the weapon's critical "modifier", did you really mean "multiplier" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#multiplyingDamage)?

[liquidformat]

I think scythe is fine at 1d10 x4 you are still not competing with actual optimization weapons like the following:

mercurial greatsword: 2d6 x4

goliath greathammer 1d12, x4

minotaur greathammer 1d12 19-20 x4



Reaping Scythe Style

Benefit(s): When using this style double the critical threat range of all scythes you wield, making their threat range 19-20 x4. Treat this feat as if it were Improved Critical for the purposes of stacking with similar benefits, but not prerequisites In addition, when making a trip attempt against a foe while using this style and the roll results in a natural 20 the foe provokes an Attack of Opportunity from you. You must be wielding a scythe to gain the benefits from this feat.

Reaping Scythe Reave
Benefit(s): While using Reaping Scythe Style, treat all killing blows delivered with a scythe as though it was a successful Coup De Grace attempt. Furthermore, scythes you wield threaten an additional 5 ft as if they had the reach quality.

Reaping Scythe Master

Benefit(s): While using Reaping Scythe Style, treat all scythe's weapon damage as if they were one size cstegory larger. In addition, the threat range increase for scythes you wield increases to 18-20 x4. Furthermore, when confirming a critical strike with a scythe you deal an additional amount of bleed damage equal to the weapon's critical modifier.


Reaping Scythe Style; so this acts like improved crit but and doesn't stack with any other crit range boosting features and I still need improved crit for preques? ouch. Feat taxes are not cool.

Reaping Scythe Reave; so it is now a reach weapon or also still works at standard range?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Do what I did when I wanted a good scythe weapon: use the Talenta Sharrash from Eberron with its original stats.* It's pretty much a scythe in appearance and function, but much better.

*It was nerfed in errata, but IMO it's original version was fine for an exotic weapon compared to the few other weapons actually worth an EWP feat (spiked chain, spinning sword, kusari-gama, Dwarven warpike, Gnome quickrazor, etc...)

[PhantasyPen]

I'm going to shamelessly self-promote here and say if you want your scythe to feel better, consider checking out the Critical Threat Range section of my new handbook For Massive Damage! (WIP) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569192-D-amp-D-3-5e-For-Massive-Damage!-A-Critical-Hit-Handbook) and see if any of the tricks listed there might help you, since the problem with the scythe is not its damage (particularly its critical damage) but instead is its piddly threat range.

EDIT: If you really want to be an Edgelord than taking 4 levels in Disciple of Dispater and 7 levels in Weapon Master (psychic or mundane) will give that weapon a right and proper kip-up, wot wot!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Wow. Are we looking at the same weapon? 2d4 max 8 damage. Longsword in one hand does 1d8, max eight damage. It also crits on 19-20 x2. Yeah scythe is strong the whole five times you might confirm a crit over a campaign. The rest of the time it will be falling behind other weapons. Yeah sure I could push it to crit on 15-20 I think. But this isn't about the whole three builds that can use it to great effect, this is about opening it up further for general use.

Let's run this out, shall we?

Longsword vs Scythe

First, the damage die: 1d8 vs 2d4

1d8 has a minimum of 1, a max of 8, and an average of 4.5; all results have a 12.5% chance of occuring.

2d4 has a minimum of 2 at a 6.25% chance of occuring, a maximum of 8 with a 6.25% chance of occuring, and an average of 5 with a 25% chance of occuring.

If you actually compare the curves, you'll see that you're just as likely to hit a 3 or 7 on either weapon and more likely to land in between with the scythe.

Basically, you'll see fewer 8s but also fewer 2s and no 1s out of the scythe. You'll see the same or more of the remaining 5 results out of the scythe overall.

I'd say the scythe is the more optimal of the two here.


Now the crits:

If we assume the same attack bonus and, thus, the same rate of confirmation then we can remove that from the equation.

19-20/X2 vs 20/X4

You're twice as likely to crit with the longsword as you are with the scythe but the scythe will do twice as much damage as the longsword when it does (technically slightly more than because of the difference in damage dice). This is pretty much a wash.

One-handed vs two-handed

Because you can wield a one handed weapon in both hands to garner 1-1/2 str bonus and 2:1 power attack benefits, the only notable difference betweebetween the two here is that the scythe is harder to disarm.

Trip

A scythe can be used to make a trip attempt, a longsword cannot.






Overall the scythe is more damaging, does its damage more reliably, has an option the longsword doesn't, and crits will (almost) average out after a certain point.

Unless you wanted to use a shield larger than a buckler, the scythe wins, if only by a narrow margin.

Why do you think it needs a boost again? :smallconfused:

[ViperMagnum357]

Dovetailing on the critical discussion: that x4 multiplier is already a selling point. Starting with that out of the box means you can use any material you want, instead of getting locked into Kaorti Resin. However, perhaps the single biggest specific advantage of the Scythe is the one no poster has yet mentioned directly: the Scythe is a two handed Martial Weapon, saving you a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Now, most martials consider EWP to be a feat tax, just one more fact of life for martials to even try to hold their own among casters: but a feat is a feat is a feat, and sometimes freeing up 1 slot is worth giving up some bells and whistles on a nifty exotic weapon.

Also, to help along the Scythe-specific theme, in Dungeon Magazine 89 there is an item called the Bracers of Reaping. They provide proficiency in any sickle or scythe weapon, and if the wielder is already proficient they gain a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls and +1 competence bonus on damage with them.

[liquidformat]

Why do you think it needs a boost again? :smallconfused:

It really should be getting compared to other 2-handed weapons rather than a one handed weapon. Compared to a greatsword or greataxe it falls behind in standard damage and by virtue of increased standard damage it falls behind the greatsword in crit damage over time, it just barely beats out the greataxe in crit damage by .5 and has trip options which neither have. beyond that it has similar damage, crit damage, and options as the rest of he martial two handers each having slightly different options. Over all lance ends up being your best damage dealer especially if you have the area to fully utilize charge actions, but standardly is the worst.

[Knaight]

It really should be getting compared to other 2-handed weapons rather than a one handed weapon. Compared to a greatsword or greataxe it falls behind in standard damage and by virtue of increased standard damage it falls behind the greatsword in crit damage over time, it just barely beats out the greataxe in crit damage by .5 and has trip options which neither have. beyond that it has similar damage, crit damage, and options as the rest of he martial two handers each having slightly different options. Over all lance ends up being your best damage dealer especially if you have the area to fully utilize charge actions, but standardly is the worst.

The math on crits is a bit more complicated than that. Things other than dice get multiplied on a crit, which eventually drowns out the dice difference. The scythe is hardly just better than everything, but it's a very solid option.

[Rynjin]

Wow. Are we looking at the same weapon? 2d4 max 8 damage. Longsword in one hand does 1d8, max eight damage. It also crits on 19-20 x2. Yeah scythe is strong the whole five times you might confirm a crit over a campaign. The rest of the time it will be falling behind other weapons. Yeah sure I could push it to crit on 15-20 I think. But this isn't about the whole three builds that can use it to great effect, this is about opening it up further for general use.

I can however see x5 possibly being over the top. But I have made more impressive things with stock tools.

You're right the scythe is a bit weaker than other 2H options (a bigger crit range is a bigger DPR boost than a bigger crit multiplier), but not for WHY it's weaker (it's not damage dice; you can wield a 1d1 weapon and still solo any CR+2 enemy with relative ease. In the grand scheme average 5+56 damage isn't all that different from 1+56 damage) or by how much (it's close enough as makes no nevermind to a Greataxe/Sword, and only marginally further than that behind more optimal weapons like the Falchion).

The Scythe already works just fine with any 2H build you'd care to mention, and is thematically very appropriate with the Intimidating Prowess/Cornugon Smash/Hurtful and Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses Feat lines many 2H characters like to take anyway (where it also benefits a bit more from the extra attacks against a lower AC giving extra potential crits).

Basically, building into making a scythe good is exactly as easy/hard as building into any other 2H non-reach weapon, and while specific support would be cool, a huge boost to its raw damage is not the way to go about it (and is quite boring design).

If you want 3rd party stuff that tackles the weapon in a more interesting manner, give the Shinigami (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/ascension-games-llc/technique-feats/shinigami-technique-combat-technique/) Technique (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/ascension-games-llc/technique-feats/shinigami-reap-combat/) line, or just playing a Path of War character (where wepaon choice matters even less than for most martials beyond optimizing whether it fits your Discipline for +2 DC).

[Celestia]

take exotic weapon prof: kaorti resin greatsword for a 2d6 19-20*4 blade
Well, if you're going to do that, you might as well go kaorti resin falchion, instead, to get 18-20/×4.

[GuestEleven]

Do what I did when I wanted a good scythe weapon: use the Talenta Sharrash from Eberron with its original stats.* It's pretty much a scythe in appearance and function, but much better.

*It was nerfed in errata, but IMO it's original version was fine for an exotic weapon compared to the few other weapons actually worth an EWP feat (spiked chain, spinning sword, kusari-gama, Dwarven warpike, Gnome quickrazor, etc...)

Can't believe this was under my radar for so long. Thanks for pointing it out.





I'm going to shamelessly self-promote here and say if you want your scythe to feel better, consider checking out the Critical Threat Range section of my new handbook For Massive Damage! (WIP) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569192-D-amp-D-3-5e-For-Massive-Damage!-A-Critical-Hit-Handbook) and see if any of the tricks listed there might help you, since the problem with the scythe is not its damage (particularly its critical damage) but instead is its piddly threat range.

EDIT: If you really want to be an Edgelord than taking 4 levels in Disciple of Dispater and 7 levels in Weapon Master (psychic or mundane) will give that weapon a right and proper kip-up, wot wot!

Trust me my man, I'm the "That's a lot of damage" guy. I know all about Disciple and pushing crits stupid high. This is about making scythe better for general use, not making builds specifically catered to doing obnoxious damage or the like.


Let's run this out, shall we?

Longsword vs Scythe

First, the damage die: 1d8 vs 2d4

1d8 has a minimum of 1, a max of 8, and an average of 4.5; all results have a 12.5% chance of occuring.

2d4 has a minimum of 2 at a 6.25% chance of occuring, a maximum of 8 with a 6.25% chance of occuring, and an average of 5 with a 25% chance of occuring.

If you actually compare the curves, you'll see that you're just as likely to hit a 3 or 7 on either weapon and more likely to land in between with the scythe.

Basically, you'll see fewer 8s but also fewer 2s and no 1s out of the scythe. You'll see the same or more of the remaining 5 results out of the scythe overall.

I'd say the scythe is the more optimal of the two here.


Now the crits:

If we assume the same attack bonus and, thus, the same rate of confirmation then we can remove that from the equation.

19-20/X2 vs 20/X4

You're twice as likely to crit with the longsword as you are with the scythe but the scythe will do twice as much damage as the longsword when it does (technically slightly more than because of the difference in damage dice). This is pretty much a wash.

One-handed vs two-handed

Because you can wield a one handed weapon in both hands to garner 1-1/2 str bonus and 2:1 power attack benefits, the only notable difference betweebetween the two here is that the scythe is harder to disarm.

Trip

A scythe can be used to make a trip attempt, a longsword cannot.






Overall the scythe is more damaging, does its damage more reliably, has an option the longsword doesn't, and crits will (almost) average out after a certain point.

Unless you wanted to use a shield larger than a buckler, the scythe wins, if only by a narrow margin.

Why do you think it needs a boost again? :smallconfused:

Math is good and all, and I typically don't argue mathematical statistics. But think about this: you're running a solid simulation that assumes all things happen at once. Realistically chance could turn the whole thing upside down. You can go a whole campaign without ever seeing a crit. I can agree that never rolling a 1 is nice. I'll admit, I did get some info mixed up. I recalled Longsword also dealing 1d10 damage when wielded with both hands but I just checked on that and I believe that was a 2e thing. Yet the longsword can be used with one or both hands. I'd say that more than evens out the trip quality.



I think scythe is fine at 1d10 x4 you are still not competing with actual optimization weapons like the following:

mercurial greatsword: 2d6 x4

goliath greathammer 1d12, x4

minotaur greathammer 1d12 19-20 x4



Reaping Scythe Style; so this acts like improved crit but and doesn't stack with any other crit range boosting features and I still need improved crit for preques? ouch. Feat taxes are not cool.

Reaping Scythe Reave; so it is now a reach weapon or also still works at standard range?

Exactly the point I am trying to make. Sorry, poor wording. This feats acts as Improved Crit for the purposes of qualifying for other prereques. The intention was for it to work at standard range.



Damage die is also one of the least important things about a weapon. It gets drowned out other factors soon enough, and the scythe gets full power attack, which is one of those factors that causes it to drown out damage die pretty quickly.


I agree. There comes a point where this really doesn't matter like it does at lower levels.




It's a long background story, but in a campaign once I had the opportunity to perform a coup de grace attempt against a paralyzed barbarian.

I had 14 strength, which meant a +3 bonus to damage from using both hands, and the Power Attack feat for another 3, which doubled to 6 additional damage for using both hands. This eventually translated into 60 damage from the automatic critical hit, and had he survived he would have had to make a DC 70 Fortitude save in order to survive.

This is the kind of thing people are talking about when they say a scythe is already fine.

So anyway...

1) Reaping Scythe Style
Needs a lot of clarification. Is it looking at the touch attack coming up a natural 20? Or the opposed roll?
I would also completely re-write the second sentence to say, "This feat does not stack with Improved Critical or other similar effects."
Beyond that it's either a bit too powerful or a bit underpowered as written. If you have Combat Reflexes and also Improved Trip, it's effectively two attacks one out of every five trip attempts. Without either of those, especially Combat Reflexes, it will do nothing most of the time, especially if your trip attempt is being made as part of another AoO.

2) Reaping Scythe Reave
You are definitely going to have to explain this one a bit more. What is a "killing blow"? Is it an attack that reduces your hit points into the negatives, or below -9? If it's the former, that's a significant increase of the lethality of scythes. If the latter then dead people don't have to make Fortitude saves.
Second, you'll have to clarify the second sentence a bit, a reach weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons) doesn't simply add five feet. It doubles the normal reach of the creature wielding the weapon. This means a large creature with an appropriately-sized scythe would threaten 20 ft, instead of the normal 10 ft. There are also some reach weapons, like the whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip), that threaten a specific range, of 15 ft. in the case of the whip. Which is it?

3) Reaping Scythe Master
I think the biggest problem with most of these feats is that you are defining them in ways that make perfect sense to you, but don't track with the established manual of style in D&D. What is "bleed" damage? Does it count as precision damage for immunity purposes (Fortification and such)? And when you say the weapon's critical "modifier", did you really mean "multiplier" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#multiplyingDamage)?


Let's be honest, buddy. If you're forcing Coup de Grace conditions anyway and you're worth your salt at melee then they aren't living through it regardless, scythe is just layering overkill on it. Also if you can't tell I'm not used to writing up abilities. Like I said, I generally hate homebrewing. You'll have to forgive me for the poor wording.

1) Reaping Scythe Style
It is looking at the trip attempt being a natural 20, not the opposed. That'd be silly if someone rolling a 20 to opposed you provoked an AoO for doing so. Help me with that second line, because I was trying to word it as if it would be treated like Impr Crit for the purposes of classes like Disciple of Dis applying to it. How did you get 1 out of every 5? Also if you take greater trip you get a free AoO every time you trip anyway. Doesn't feel overpowered, maybe just over-tuned(which is why I made this post). As far as not having combat reflexes: I haven't decided the prereques yet but I was thinking that would possibly be one of them. Style feats typically have quite a few.

2) Reaping Scythe Reave
I was meaning for it to be a successful coup de grace when it actually kills the foe, not just drop them to negative(which feels like that'd be way too strong). I know initially it doesn't make sense, but it is meant for abilities that trigger when you successfully coup de grace someone such as from a Tiefling variant race trait Soul Eater: "Whenever you use a coup de grace action to kill a creature (either by damage or through a failed Fortitude save)" or when determining things such as the Mythic Ability Immortal: "At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed... This ability doesn’t apply if you’re killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature" Just a neat little fun idea I was playing with. Don't know how useful it would truly be.

3) Reaping Scythe Master
You're absolutely right and I apologize. I hope I have clarified it well enough for you. I also see an issue of disconnect. You're looking at singularly 3.5 while I play 3.5/Pathfinder. Style feats are something unique to Pathfinder and is what I am emulating. When I am talking about bleed damage I am talking about Bleed (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions/#TOC-Bleed) in an amount equal to the critical multiplier on the scythe and is basically an ongoing effect until the bleeding is stopped.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I wouldn't make someone provoke based on something their attacker rolls, and I wouldn't add bleed damage (it's annoying to track). Instead, how about this:

Reaping Scythe [style]
Prerequisites: Improved Critical, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (scythe).
Benefit: When you use a scythe to attack a prone target, the threat range of your scythe increases by 2 for that attack (typically to 17-20). This increase stacks with Improved Critical. You also gain a +2 bonus on trip attempts and critical confirmation rolls with a scythe.

Falling Wheat [tactical]
Prerequisites: Cleave, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: The Falling Wheat feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Sweep the Grass: To use this maneuver, you must trip a creature using a slashing polearm (glaive, guisarme, scythe). You may then make the immediate melee attack granted by your Improved Trip feat against another creature adjacent to your target. There must be line of effect between your initial target's space and the creature you're attacking (you can't sweep through a wall or other obstacle). The attack may be another trip attempt, and that trip attempt may grant you another immediate melee attack.
Wide Swathe: To use this maneuver, you must deal a creature enough damage to make it drop using a slashing polearm (glaive, guisarme, scythe). You may then take a 5-foot step before you make the bonus attack granted by your Cleave feat. Your reach for the attack is increased by 5 feet, and it doesn't count against the number of Cleave attacks you can make in a round.
Steady Rhythm: To use this maneuver, you must confirm a critical hit with a slashing polearm (glaive, guisarme, scythe). Your threat range with that weapon increases by 1. This increase stacks with Improved Critical, Reaping Scythe, and itself. This benefit ends when you fail to confirm a critical hit or 1 minute after your latest critical hit, whichever comes first.


On average, these feats aren't so problematic. But if you get a few lucky rolls, you might be swinging a 10-20 threat range scythe around.

[Maat Mons]

Mathematically, 20/x4 works out to the same average damage as 18-20/x2. And both work out to more average damage that either 20/x3 or 19-20/x2. This means that a scythe and a falchion deal the same average damage, but the scythe has the added benefits of being able to trip and giving you a choice of two damage types. Now, personally, I'd still take a falchion over a scythe, but that's because I like to deal my damage in more evenly-distributed chunks.

One problem with scythes is that many enemies are immune to critical hits. A full 1/3rd or creature types give innate immunity, if memory serves. Then there are various magic items and spells. Of course, this is hardly unique to this one weapon. It puts something of a damper on all weapons whose selling points include a good critical threat range or a good critical multiplier.

More specific to the scythe, is the issue that everyone who really cares about tripping will be using a spiked chain. I don't feel like a feat that gives a scythe reach is the answer here though. If you give it the ability to also threaten adjacent squares, you're just replacing spiked chain as the ultimate trip weapon. If you don't, no one will every choose to spend a feat on the scythe when the spiked chain is right there.




take exotic weapon prof: kaorti resin greatsword for a 2d6 19-20*4 blade


go kaorti resin falchion, instead, to get 18-20/×4.

Am I missing something? As far as I can tell, kaorti resin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) bumps the multiplier up to 4, but does nothing to the threat range. That means you'd need to start with a falchion to get 18-20/x4.




19-20/X2 vs 20/X4

You're twice as likely to crit with the longsword as you are with the scythe but the scythe will do twice as much damage as the longsword when it does (technically slightly more than because of the difference in damage dice). This is pretty much a wash.

... I can't let this slide. The scythe deals 1x damage 95% of the time and 4x damage 5% of the time. That averages out to 1.15x damage. A longsword/greatsword deals 1x damage 90% of the time, and 2x damage 10% of the time. That averages out to 1.1x.

If you throw in keen/improved crit, the scythe goes to 1.3x on average, and the other two to 1.2x on average. For anyone with at least a +13 to damage, the x4 and 18-20/x2 weapons are superior to the x3 and 19-20/x2 weapons, at least when going up against enemies subject to critical hits.

[Celestia]

Am I missing something? As far as I can tell, kaorti resin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) bumps the multiplier up to 4, but does nothing to the threat range. That means you'd need to start with a falchion to get 18-20/x4.
Well, if you're going to do that, you might as well go kaorti resin falchion, instead, to get 18-20/×4.
Yep. You are correct.

[Maat Mons]

Hmm, I misread the first post as saying 18-20. and I misread the second one as saying scythe. Well, never mind then.

[Doctor Awkward]

1) Reaping Scythe Style
It is looking at the trip attempt being a natural 20, not the opposed.
That... doesn't entirely clear things up for me.
When a character makes a trip attempt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#trip) he is rolling twice: once for the touch attack to initiate the attempt, and again for the opposed roll to knock the opponent on their butt.
I'm assuming the feat is looking at the touch attack portion?
Right. Pathfinder.


Help me with that second line, because I was trying to word it as if it would be treated like Impr Crit for the purposes of classes like Disciple of Dis applying to it.
Oh. My mistake, I thought you didn't want it to count as Improved Critical for prerequisites. Just word it like the Tome of Battle feats: "RSS can be used in place of Improved Critical to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability."


How did you get 1 out of every 5?
Binomial distribution.
That was leftover from when I misread the feat and thought it was an AoO on any attack that came up a natural 20 instead of any trip attempt. Hasted +16 BAB means five rounds of full attacks is a 75% chance of a nat 20, which is statistically significant enough to be free.
Sorry about that.


Also if you take greater trip you get a free AoO every time you trip anyway. Doesn't feel overpowered, maybe just over-tuned(which is why I made this post). As far as not having combat reflexes: I haven't decided the prereques yet but I was thinking that would possibly be one of them. Style feats typically have quite a few.

...Is this for Pathfinder?
Because that probably changes things a bit.


2) Reaping Scythe Reave
I was meaning for it to be a successful coup de grace when it actually kills the foe, not just drop them to negative(which feels like that'd be way too strong). I know initially it doesn't make sense, but it is meant for abilities that trigger when you successfully coup de grace someone such as from a Tiefling variant race trait Soul Eater: "Whenever you use a coup de grace action to kill a creature (either by damage or through a failed Fortitude save)" or when determining things such as the Mythic Ability Immortal: "At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed... This ability doesn’t apply if you’re killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature" Just a neat little fun idea I was playing with. Don't know how useful it would truly be.

That sounds like an absurdly specific benefit that is definitely not worth a feat in 3.5.
Can't speak for Pathfinder.



3) Reaping Scythe Master
You're absolutely right and I apologize. I hope I have clarified it well enough for you. I also see an issue of disconnect. You're looking at singularly 3.5 while I play 3.5/Pathfinder. Style feats are something unique to Pathfinder and is what I am emulating. When I am talking about bleed damage I am talking about Bleed (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions/#TOC-Bleed) in an amount equal to the critical multiplier on the scythe and is basically an ongoing effect until the bleeding is stopped.

Heh, yeah... :smalltongue:

Anyway, while I can't speak for Pathfinder, Damage over Time effects in 3.5 are horrendously weak. Strictly speaking, the most effective status condition a melee character can ever apply to any given enemy is "Dead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dead)". Due to the nature of the initiative system, ten damage right now is always better than ten damage in the next thirty seconds.

[Crake]

My cleric/paladin (or blackguard for the evil version) with surge of fortune and bless weapon ubercharger scythe wielder begs to differ :smalltongue:

Automatic natural 20, automatic crit confirm vs good/evil, toss on the appropriate crystal to bypass any creature type based crit immunity, and the time domain for contingency to cast another surge of fortune for neutral creatures, and you have a character that can practically one-shot anything in the game in the surprise round, only to teleport away the next instant with word of recall.

On a more serious note though, if you look at things from a balance perspective, there's a tradeoff between weapon damage, handedness, crit range and crit multiplier. The "base" damage for a 2 hander is 1d12/2d6, along with EITHER a 2 facet crit range, or a x3 crit multiplier. By increasing the crit multiplier to 4, you're basically having to lose SOMETHING, and since you can't drop the crit range (it's already a single facet), you have to drop the damage, which goes down by 1 damage dice to 1d8/2d4. 2d4 is arguably better than 1d8, as it has a more reliable damage bell curve instead of an even distribution, and has a higher minimum damage. We can see this relationship between damage dice:crit multiplier:crit range being shared across the board, with a 1:1:1 ratio. One crit multiplier is worth 1 damage dice is worth 1 crit range. Rapier is 18-20, x2 with it's damage reduced by one dice, flachion is the same, as is the kukri and the pick. There are a few weapons that have reduced overall stats, but typically either a) come with something else as a benefit (reach, trip, disarm, nonlethal) or seem intentionally made worse due to what they are (greatclub), but otherwise most things will fit into this convention. If you change the scythe, you need to change all the others too, though that becomes an issue with things like the rapier, there's nothing in between 1d6 and 1d8.

Regarding the feats you've made, they're interesting, though I don't know the scythe really needs them, as it's entirely functional without them and I feel like there are just straight up vastly better options for feats out there. Trip attempts already allow you to get an attack against your enemy if you have improved trip, and eating up an attack of opportunity that could be more useful later on seems less worthwhile than improved trip's free attack. I don't know what the purpose of killing blows being treated as coup-de-grace is supposed to achieve, if it had been critical hits, that would have been strong, arguably too strong as it makes practically all crits auto-kills. Again, increased weapon damage and an 18-20 crit range is nice, but there are better ways to achieve the former, if you even care enough (1d10, using your new scythe damage goes to 2d8, which, on average is only an extra 3.5 damage, the same as adding an extra d6 roughly, but when you're power attacking for +20 damage and adding on +12 from strength that seems pretty worthless in comparison). 18-20 crit range is the only real thing that's unique about the feat chain, but eating up 3 feats to get there, when there are ways to guarantee a crit even without all that, it just becomes not worth it.

If you want to make the feats feel useful, firstly, make it one feat, secondly, make it like the tactical feats in complete warrior, let feats do something unique, that requires some kind of set up, and a good payoff.

An example might be allowing you to coup-de grace on a successful crit against a stunned foe? That would require you to set up your foe being stunned, followed by a successful critical hit.
Another one might be that when you trip an enemy with improved trip, the free attack you get has an increased threat range.
And the final one could be something along the lines of like, say, a spinning scythe ability, allowing you to twirl the scythe, letting you get an extra attack when using it to full attack, but at a -2 penalty, similar to rapid shot/two weapon fighting/flurry of blows?

just some ideas off the cuff, but you need to realise that feats are a big resource to spend, and getting some relatively minor benefits out of one, let alone 3, is not a buff to scythes, it's a trap.

[martixy]

I wouldn't make someone provoke based on something their attacker rolls, and I wouldn't add bleed damage (it's annoying to track). Instead, how about this:

Reaping Scythe [style]
Prerequisites: Improved Critical, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (scythe).
Benefit: When you use a scythe to attack a prone target, the threat range of your scythe increases by 2 for that attack (typically to 17-20). This increase stacks with Improved Critical. You also gain a +2 bonus on trip attempts and critical confirmation rolls with a scythe.

Falling Wheat [tactical]
Prerequisites: Cleave, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: The Falling Wheat feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Sweep the Grass: To use this maneuver, you must trip a creature using a slashing polearm (glaive, guisarme, scythe). You may then make the immediate melee attack granted by your Improved Trip feat against another creature adjacent to your target. There must be line of effect between your initial target's space and the creature you're attacking (you can't sweep through a wall or other obstacle). The attack may be another trip attempt, and that trip attempt may grant you another immediate melee attack.
Wide Swathe: To use this maneuver, you must deal a creature enough damage to make it drop using a slashing polearm (glaive, guisarme, scythe). You may then take a 5-foot step before you make the bonus attack granted by your Cleave feat. Your reach for the attack is increased by 5 feet, and it doesn't count against the number of Cleave attacks you can make in a round.
Steady Rhythm: To use this maneuver, you must confirm a critical hit with a slashing polearm (glaive, guisarme, scythe). Your threat range with that weapon increases by 1. This increase stacks with Improved Critical, Reaping Scythe, and itself. This benefit ends when you fail to confirm a critical hit or 1 minute after your latest critical hit, whichever comes first.


On average, these feats aren't so problematic. But if you get a few lucky rolls, you might be swinging a 10-20 threat range scythe around.

Oh, I do love me those.

I'm just not sure how I feel about stacking Steady Rhythm. On one hand, the probability of getting ridiculous is low(but not negligibly so), but on the other hand there's exploits I'm not sure I want to have in a game together with >10-20 threat ranges.

Also, it will require some minor edits for Pathfinder. (Where basic trip doesn't automatically grant an extra attack. Basic cleave is also different, but I don't use PF's version, so I don't care.)

And what if your game uses weapon groups? I'm trying to think of a good reason Reaping Scythe shouldn't extend to polearms and failing.

[GuestEleven]

Oh, I do love me those.

I'm just not sure how I feel about stacking Steady Rhythm. On one hand, the probability of getting ridiculous is low(but not negligibly so), but on the other hand there's exploits I'm not sure I want to have in a game together with >10-20 threat ranges.

Also, it will require some minor edits for Pathfinder. (Where basic trip doesn't automatically grant an extra attack. Basic cleave is also different, but I don't use PF's version, so I don't care.)

And what if your game uses weapon groups? I'm trying to think of a good reason Reaping Scythe shouldn't extend to polearms and failing.

I really Like this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[liquidformat]

Sweep the Grass: To use this maneuver, you must trip a creature using a slashing polearm (glaive, guisarme, scythe). You may then make the immediate melee attack granted by your Improved Trip feat against another creature adjacent to your target. There must be line of effect between your initial target's space and the creature you're attacking (you can't sweep through a wall or other obstacle). The attack may be another trip attempt, and that trip attempt may grant you another immediate melee attack.


Why not just make this as a full round action make a trip attack against each person within reach. The attack is stopped if you fail to trip an opponent. (don't know if that needs to be explicitly stated since you would be dropping your scythe at that point anyways...) You can have it be for scythe, or the polearm weapon group if you are playing with those rules and keep the comment about not being able to sweep through walls or obstacles.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Oh, I do love me those.

I'm just not sure how I feel about stacking Steady Rhythm. On one hand, the probability of getting ridiculous is low(but not negligibly so), but on the other hand there's exploits I'm not sure I want to have in a game together with >10-20 threat ranges.

Also, it will require some minor edits for Pathfinder. (Where basic trip doesn't automatically grant an extra attack. Basic cleave is also different, but I don't use PF's version, so I don't care.)

And what if your game uses weapon groups? I'm trying to think of a good reason Reaping Scythe shouldn't extend to polearms and failing.
Thanks :smallsmile:.

I'm not so worried about stacking crit range indefinitely. In most games, it will sometimes give you a god mode scythe, but only in encounters that support it (lots of mooks), and only very rarely. It's exploitable with the usual bag-of-rats-and-killing-one-every-fifty-seconds, but that was already a problem with other abilities, most notably (in this context) Blood in the Water. If you're in a game where it needs fixing, it's fairly easy to lift the ToB "end of encounter" definition and houserule that the end of an encounter to remove both buffs.

I'm not an expert on PF, so the edits for that I'll leave to someone who knows it well. Weapon groups would be pretty straightforward, as you can simply extend the feat to apply to all polearms. Scythe would still be optimal, being the polearm with the highest total crit power. It would be a pretty decent reflection of the "fall down and get murdered by six billion halberds" effect you get in mass battles :smalltongue:.


Why not just make this as a full round action make a trip attack against each person within reach. The attack is stopped if you fail to trip an opponent. (don't know if that needs to be explicitly stated since you would be dropping your scythe at that point anyways...) You can have it be for scythe, or the polearm weapon group if you are playing with those rules and keep the comment about not being able to sweep through walls or obstacles.
Because this way, you can start a cycle of tripping from an AoO, promoting synergy with Combat Reflexes/the whole melee lockdown shebang.

[Kelb_Panthera]

.

... I can't let this slide. The scythe deals 1x damage 95% of the time and 4x damage 5% of the time. That averages out to 1.15x damage. A longsword/greatsword deals 1x damage 90% of the time, and 2x damage 10% of the time. That averages out to 1.1x.

If you throw in keen/improved crit, the scythe goes to 1.3x on average, and the other two to 1.2x on average. For anyone with at least a +13 to damage, the x4 and 18-20/x2 weapons are superior to the x3 and 19-20/x2 weapons, at least when going up against enemies subject to critical hits.

When's the last time you fought an enemy with so much health that the average expressed itself? No one cares who does the most damage over a career.

In the generous circumstance of a level 16+ fight lasting five rounds wherin the wielder makes a full attack in all 5 rounds, tbe scythe will fail to proc a critical threat about 1/3 (.3585) of the time. The longsword will fail to proc a threat about 1/8 (.1216) of the time. When you factor this detail in, the scythe crits raise damage by 9.62% and the longsword crits raise damage by 8.79% in any given fight. That's only a 0.83% difference; negligible IMO. The difference only shrinks with fewer attacks made in a fight.

[Knaight]

When's the last time you fought an enemy with so much health that the average expressed itself? No one cares who does the most damage over a career.

On the other hand a career has so many fights in it that that average reasserts itself - and you notice when fights are suddenly two rounds shorter because of a well timed crit.

[martixy]

Thanks :smallsmile:.

I'm not so worried about stacking crit range indefinitely. In most games, it will sometimes give you a god mode scythe, but only in encounters that support it (lots of mooks), and only very rarely. It's exploitable with the usual bag-of-rats-and-killing-one-every-fifty-seconds, but that was already a problem with other abilities, most notably (in this context) Blood in the Water. If you're in a game where it needs fixing, it's fairly easy to lift the ToB "end of encounter" definition and houserule that the end of an encounter to remove both buffs.

I'm not an expert on PF, so the edits for that I'll leave to someone who knows it well. Weapon groups would be pretty straightforward, as you can simply extend the feat to apply to all polearms. Scythe would still be optimal, being the polearm with the highest total crit power. It would be a pretty decent reflection of the "fall down and get murdered by six billion halberds" effect you get in mass battles :smalltongue:.


Because this way, you can start a cycle of tripping from an AoO, promoting synergy with Combat Reflexes/the whole melee lockdown shebang.

It's somewhat of a matter of principle really. I like keeping the basic notion of tradeoff between high threat range and high multiplier, and this gives it both.

Now... I do have another idea - What if reaping scythe were to increase the multiplier by 1 instead? That creates the rather unique* result of a x5 weapon.

* There are a few other effects that mess with multiplier, but I can only point to one of the top of my head: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d. x6 scythe is an amusing idea.

As for the PF edits, well... I already updated it for my own 3.P game. If I were better man, you'd get good formatting, but it's late and I don't care to bother, so here:

37. Reaping Blade [Style]

You've learned how to deliver devastating blows with scythes and similar weapons.

Prerequisites:
Improved Critical, Improved Trip, Weapon Focus (polearms)

Benefit:
When you use a polearm that deals slashing damage to attack a prone target, the threat range of your weapon increases by 2 for that attack (typically to 17-20). This increase stacks with Improved Critical. You also gain a +2 bonus on trip attempts and critical confirmation rolls with the weapon.


38. Falling Wheat [Tactical]

You've mastered the unique nature and reach of slashing polearm weapons.

Prerequisites:
Cleave, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6

Benefit:
The Falling Wheat feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Sweep the Grass:
To use this maneuver, you must trip a creature using a slashing polearm (glaive, guisarme, scythe). You may then make a second trip attempt against another creature adjacent to your target. There must be line of effect between your initial target's space and the creature you're attacking (you can't sweep through a wall or other obstacle).
Wide Swathe:
To use this maneuver, you must deal a creature enough damage to make it drop using a slashing polearm (glaive, guisarme, scythe). You may then take a combat step before you make the bonus attack granted by your Cleave feat. Your reach for the attack is increased by 5 feet, and it doesn't count against the number of Cleave attacks you can make in a round.
Steady Rhythm:
To use this maneuver, you must confirm a critical hit with a slashing polearm (glaive, guisarme, scythe). Your threat range with that weapon increases by 1. This increase stacks with other increases to threat range (but not with itself). This benefit ends when you fail to confirm a critical hit or 1 minute after your latest critical hit, whichever comes first.

The basic difference between 3.5 and PF is that you only get the extra attack from trip with an extra feat. I've left the cleave wording the same, because as I said, I don't like PFs version of cleave. PF cleave is bs, 3.5 cleave = PF cleaving finish. IMO, cleave and cleaving finish should be 1 feat, ditto for great cleave/impr. cleaving finish.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It's somewhat of a matter of principle really. I like keeping the basic notion of tradeoff between high threat range and high multiplier, and this gives it both.

Now... I do have another idea - What if reaping scythe were to increase the multiplier by 1 instead? That creates the rather unique* result of a x5 weapon.
Well, it's a principle of optimization that you boost a scythe by increasing its threat range. +1 Threat range is more valuable than +1 multiplier on a scythe, and for this thread, it made sense to make a feat that's really good for scythes (incidentally also good for glaives and guisarmes, which are 20/x3 weapons). I considered the x5 multiplier, but I think the number of times you'd care about the difference (a kill is a kill, 100 or 125 damage) is too small to make it an attractive option.

The prerequisite for Reaping Scythe (Improved Critical) is +8 base attack, so you're getting that 17-20 threat range (against prone targets only) at level 9 or 12, which is pretty late for a mundane; before that, Falling Wheat is your only threat range boost besides keen/keen edge, and the chances of getting back-to-back confirmed crits aren't too good. I think it's fair that scythe users get a significant boost in power around level 9-12, because the casters are bringing 5ths and 6ths on a regular basis, including surge of fortune for the auto-threat.


This morning, I realized that there's a really basic thing you can do for scythes (an idea that I think has been had before), which is essentially Power Attack for critfishers. Something like: -2 attack/+1 threat range, -5 attack/+2 threat range, -9 attack/+3 threat range, -14 attack, +4 threat range, -20 attack, +5 threat range (max penalty up to base attack, I suppose). Would require a tradeoff between Power Attack (which multiplies on a crit) and threat range, which quickly devolves into either Shock Trooper (spirit lion totem wolf totem whirling frenzy barbarian) or hitting flat-footed/touch AC (Persistent wraithstrike or Deep Impact/Nightmare Blade) to fit more penalties onto one and the same attack.

[martixy]

Well, it's a principle of optimization that you boost a scythe by increasing its threat range. +1 Threat range is more valuable than +1 multiplier on a scythe, and for this thread, it made sense to make a feat that's really good for scythes (incidentally also good for glaives and guisarmes, which are 20/x3 weapons). I considered the x5 multiplier, but I think the number of times you'd care about the difference (a kill is a kill, 100 or 125 damage) is too small to make it an attractive option.

Well, it's not really optimization, since we're homebrewing here, so things are somewhat arbitrary, but yea, the best effectiveness increase is achieved via threat range increases.


The prerequisite for Reaping Scythe (Improved Critical) is +8 base attack, so you're getting that 17-20 threat range (against prone targets only) at level 9 or 12, which is pretty late for a mundane; before that, Falling Wheat is your only threat range boost besides keen/keen edge, and the chances of getting back-to-back confirmed crits aren't too good. I think it's fair that scythe users get a significant boost in power around level 9-12, because the casters are bringing 5ths and 6ths on a regular basis, including surge of fortune for the auto-threat.

That's true. Though I was comparing it to other crit options. Before you say I'm using the wrong measuring stick - I get it, but being compared to other crit options is still a valid consideration.



This morning, I realized that there's a really basic thing you can do for scythes (an idea that I think has been had before), which is essentially Power Attack for critfishers. Something like: -2 attack/+1 threat range, -5 attack/+2 threat range, -9 attack/+3 threat range, -14 attack, +4 threat range, -20 attack, +5 threat range (max penalty up to base attack, I suppose). Would require a tradeoff between Power Attack (which multiplies on a crit) and threat range, which quickly devolves into either Shock Trooper (spirit lion totem wolf totem whirling frenzy barbarian) or hitting flat-footed/touch AC (Persistent wraithstrike or Deep Impact/Nightmare Blade) to fit more penalties onto one and the same attack.

Yep. Those are one of the first new feats I wrote down for my own game:

2. Aimed shot [Fighter Bonus Feat, General]

You choose to aim exclusively for your foe's vital spots. You miss more frequently, but when you do hit, it's usually where it really hurts!

Prerequisites:
Proficient with ranged weapon, Precise shot, BAB +6

Benefit:
You may elect to take -4 penalty to your attack in exchange for a +1 bonus to your weapon's threat range. You can take a greater penalty in exchange for a greater bonus to threat range, but only up to your BAB. This bonus to threat range stacks with Improved Critical and Keen Edge or a keen arrow, but as usual these don't stack between themselves.


3. Targeted Strike [Fighter Bonus Feat, General]

You choose to strike exclusively at your foe's vital spots. You miss more frequently, but when you do hit, it's usually where it really hurts!

Prerequisites:
Proficient with melee weapon, Weapon Focus, BAB +6

Benefit:
You may elect to take -4 penalty to your attack in exchange for a +1 bonus to your weapon's threat range. You can take a greater penalty in exchange for a greater bonus to threat range, but only up to your BAB. This bonus to threat range stacks with Improved Critical and Keen Edge, but as usual these don't stack between themselves.

Special:
You can use this feat with Power Attack, but the combined penalty from both must not exceed your BAB.


Though I went with a flat -4 penalty per threat. Although... based on this little chart (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14P-_AUDhtIEwav7dhF5G7AD0OowlRq2MmRVabsqDTU8/edit?usp=sharing) I made for the crit fishing thread to help Saintheart sort out how probabilities work, your adjusted version may be better. Since the benefits of lowering threat range "accelerate" in a manner of speaking, i.e. you get more net benefit when going from 16-20 to 15-20 than when going from 17-20 to 16-20. I don't think that effect is that big of a deal though. However, your version does suffer from one clear drawback, and that is complexity (that's something you always have to consider in design - you're buying depth with complexity, and you have to think real hard whether one is worth the other).

[Goaty14]

* There are a few other effects that mess with multiplier, but I can only point to one of the top of my head: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d. x6 scythe is an amusing idea.

Deepwood Sniper (MotW) increases bow multiplier over 7 levels, resulting in x5 arrows.

[Maat Mons]

In the generous circumstance of a level 16+ fight lasting five rounds wherin the wielder makes a full attack in all 5 rounds, tbe scythe will fail to proc a critical threat about 1/3 (.3585) of the time. The longsword will fail to proc a threat about 1/8 (.1216) of the time. When you factor this detail in, the scythe crits raise damage by 9.62% and the longsword crits raise damage by 8.79% in any given fight. That's only a 0.83% difference; negligible IMO. The difference only shrinks with fewer attacks made in a fight.

Using your own approximations:

The scythe has a 2/3 chance of effectively adding +3 attacks.
(2/3) * 3 / 20 = +10% damage.

The greatsword has a 7/8 chance of effectively adding +1 attack.
(7/8) * 1 / 20 = about +4.4% damage.

Seriously dude, you are not doing the math correctly.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Using your own approximations:

The scythe has a 2/3 chance of effectively adding +3 attacks.
(2/3) * 3 / 20 = +10% damage.

The greatsword has a 7/8 chance of effectively adding +1 attack.
(7/8) * 1 / 20 = about +4.4% damage.

Seriously dude, you are not doing the math correctly.

The odds i gave you were for not making any critical threats at all. It says nothing about how many threats will be made and fail or how many actual critical hits there will be otherwise, yet you presume that it will be at least one confirmed crit in the other 2/3 and 1/8 of cases but I'm doing the math wrong?

Outside of the case of building around the weapon or getting a special version of it, the odds of no crit are actually slightly higher than I've given since you're guaranteed to fail a confirmation 5% of the time.

If you -really- want to, we can run out the numbers in detail using (quite frankly a LOT of) the assumptions that are baked into the game system for something more precise ?

[Maat Mons]

The odds i gave you were for not making any critical threats at all. It says nothing about how many threats will be made and fail or how many actual critical hits there will be otherwise, yet you presume that it will be at least one confirmed crit in the other 2/3 and 1/8 of cases but I'm doing the math wrong?

Yes, you did give me numbers numbers for crit/no crit, with no regard for how many crits might be scored. It was quite blatantly stupid, but since you seemed to want to go that route, I thought I'd indulge you. I already showed you the math worked out the right way, but you brushed that off. So I figured, "well this guy seems to like overly-simplified models and approximations, I'll try speaking his language."

I'm gonna say, it's a real **** move for you to introduce inaccurate binary models and then make fun of me for showing you that, even within your bizarre and inaccurate model, your incorrect conclusions are not born out.




Outside of the case of building around the weapon or getting a special version of it, the odds of no crit are actually slightly higher than I've given since you're guaranteed to fail a confirmation 5% of the time.

Every critical confirmation roll has a chance of failing. Also every attack has a chance of failing. If you work out the math, you'll see that the attack roll factors out, meaning neither the chance of the original hit missing, not the chance of the confirmation roll failing has any effect when determining the damage boost provided by different critical properties.




If you -really- want to, we can run out the numbers in detail using (quite frankly a LOT of) the assumptions that are baked into the game system for something more precise ?

Yes. Yes, I would like you to write out the math for this. And post it. With your work shown.

Because, on a x4 weapon, crits average out to +15% damage. And on a 19-20/x2 weapon, they average out to +10% damage. There's no correct math that will say anything different. And if you post your work in detail, I'll be able to point out exactly where you're going wrong.

[Raxxius]

The math doesn't really lie but it also doesn't account for overkill. High crit damage is good for large single targets higher with a lot of hp soak/dr, higher crit chance is better if critting a target is the difference between one or two attacks to drop something. Critting an orc to 1 hp mechanically does very little different to reducing him to 16. You still need the second attack anyhow so action economy isn't saved.

As such there are many scenarios in which one stat will outshine the other. But in general it's probably better to crit often over critting big.

[Saintheart]

Well, it's a principle of optimization that you boost a scythe by increasing its threat range. +1 Threat range is more valuable than +1 multiplier on a scythe, and for this thread, it made sense to make a feat that's really good for scythes (incidentally also good for glaives and guisarmes, which are 20/x3 weapons). I considered the x5 multiplier, but I think the number of times you'd care about the difference (a kill is a kill, 100 or 125 damage) is too small to make it an attractive option.

The prerequisite for Reaping Scythe (Improved Critical) is +8 base attack, so you're getting that 17-20 threat range (against prone targets only) at level 9 or 12, which is pretty late for a mundane; before that, Falling Wheat is your only threat range boost besides keen/keen edge, and the chances of getting back-to-back confirmed crits aren't too good. I think it's fair that scythe users get a significant boost in power around level 9-12, because the casters are bringing 5ths and 6ths on a regular basis, including surge of fortune for the auto-threat.


This morning, I realized that there's a really basic thing you can do for scythes (an idea that I think has been had before), which is essentially Power Attack for critfishers. Something like: -2 attack/+1 threat range, -5 attack/+2 threat range, -9 attack/+3 threat range, -14 attack, +4 threat range, -20 attack, +5 threat range (max penalty up to base attack, I suppose). Would require a tradeoff between Power Attack (which multiplies on a crit) and threat range, which quickly devolves into either Shock Trooper (spirit lion totem wolf totem whirling frenzy barbarian) or hitting flat-footed/touch AC (Persistent wraithstrike or Deep Impact/Nightmare Blade) to fit more penalties onto one and the same attack.

For critical I’d actually suggest a melee equivalent to Targeteer - give up iterative attacks for a bigger threat range, one for one - rather than reduce attack accuracy, mainly because a bigger threat range is meaningless unless you get over the opponent’s AC on the threat roll and the confirmation. Sort of gives you the feeling of winding up for a haymaker rather than rabbit punching the opponent to death.

[SangoProduction]

Overall the scythe is more damaging, does its damage more reliably, has an option the longsword doesn't, and crits will (almost) average out after a certain point.

Unless you wanted to use a shield larger than a buckler, the scythe wins, if only by a narrow margin.

Why do you think it needs a boost again? :smallconfused:

So....You're saying...it is narrowly wins against a one-handed weapon? Wow. I don't think you could have made the Op's point clearer then lol.

Of course, when considering Crit, you must acknowledge Overkill. x4 is the same as x2, if you would kill them either way. Since the chance is lower for the x4, you are more likely going to have to wail in to them more in order to crit. And if you wail in to them more, they will be closer to death, wherein a higher crit is not going to be more useful. Maybe if crits had punch-through damage, then maybe you could say they are the same. But as it stands, it is simply worse in every way to the more consistent longsword. Which is sad.

[Maat Mons]

The math doesn't really lie but it also doesn't account for overkill.

Of course, when considering Crit, you must acknowledge Overkill.

While I would personally always take a falchion over a scythe, I'm going to go ahead and stick up for the poor, maligned scythe a bit here.

Yes, overkill will sometimes make a higher multiplier moot. But attack bonus will sometimes make a higher threat range moot. If you need to roll a 20 to hit, your weapon effectively only has a threat range of 20.

That means later iterative attacks made at large penalties actually benefit more from higher multiplier than from higher threat range.

[Knaight]

Yes, overkill will sometimes make a higher multiplier moot. But attack bonus will sometimes make a higher threat range moot. If you need to roll a 20 to hit, your weapon effectively only has a threat range of 20.

That means later iterative attacks made at large penalties actually benefit more from higher multiplier than from higher threat range.

While this is technically true, the existence of crit confirmation rolls makes it pretty irrelevant. If you need a 20 to hit you crit once per 400 rolls, and if this is because of iterative attacks it means that those earlier attacks contribute so much more to average damage that crits on later attacks can basically be neglected. In the single attack case it is technically relevant, but kind of niche, applying mostly to scenarios where two combatants who have optimized defense over to offense to an enormous extent fight each other, or scenarios where the character needing to roll a 20 just dies.

[SangoProduction]

While I would personally always take a falchion over a scythe, I'm going to go ahead and stick up for the poor, maligned scythe a bit here.

Yes, overkill will sometimes make a higher multiplier moot. But attack bonus will sometimes make a higher threat range moot. If you need to roll a 20 to hit, your weapon effectively only has a threat range of 20.

That means later iterative attacks made at large penalties actually benefit more from higher multiplier than from higher threat range.

Except that, with exception to fights you really just shouldn't be taking in the first place, that eventuality isn't likely to ever come up. (Even ignoring crit confirm.) Where as, in almost every combat, someone's going to be low on health by the time you hit them 20 times.