'Dark Phoenix' trailer online

[oudeis]

Um... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWbMckU3AOQ)

Given how badly Singer mishandled the Phoenix's abrupt emergence and even more rapid disappearance in 'Apocalypse', they are going to have a lot of work explaining what she/it is, how it is so powerful, and why it is so destructive or just plain evil. There was also more than a hint of the kind of political didacticism that was not present in the 'Captain Marvel' teaser. I had no plans to see it even before this, but can't they just tell a good old-fashioned 'girl meets cosmic entity, girl becomes controlled by cosmic entity and kills billions of sentient aliens by feeding on their sun, girl must overcome cosmic entity before it destroys any more solar systems' story?

[Clertar]

It looks like a remake of X-Men 3 tbh.

[Kitten Champion]

The biggest problem with it is that Apocalypse didn't really sell the new iterations of these characters. They were present certainly, but they were watered down with everything else in that bloated mess.

The impact of the Dark Phoenix story was that it was happening to characters the readers knew, and specifically to Jean Grey whose persona in the comics had been a rather buttoned-down good girl. Her entire character in Apocalypse was pretty much "she's alienated even from other Mutants because of her powers and portends to the dangers that lies beneath" which undermines this turn towards villainy, in much the same way it did with Anakin Skywalker.

Also, kind of hard to give a damn about Magneto after he killed all those (presumably) millions of people.

[GloatingSwine]

I have a suspicion that the main attraction for this version of Jean is “Look everyone, it’s Sansa Stark!”

They’ve certainly done nothing to build any audience engagement with this version of the character and so a story about how she deals with unlimited cosmic power has no real in for the audience. We don’t know who she was before the Phoenix.

Of course I also expect they’ll ignore any cosmic origin in favour of it just being an alternate personality or some other boring nonsense.

Meh. Reboot the X-Men and do them properly next time. Embrace their more out there adventures and remember it’s an ensemble not The Wolverine Show.

[Bastian Weaver]

It looks like a remake of X-Men 3 tbh.

Well, it's based on the same story, so...


Reboot the X-Men and do them properly next time.

Hear, hear!

[Velaryon]

I didn't even know they were making this. Now that I do, my feeling about it is pretty meh, honestly.

With the exception of Logan (and the two Deadpool films if you want to count those), nothing in the X-verse films has really wowed me. They haven't all been as bad as X-Men 3 or X-Men Origins: Wolverine, but the bar for superhero movies has been raised much, much higher than anything even the best of the X-Men films has been able to attain.

On top of that, I increasingly feel like casting Jennifer Lawrence as Mystique in X-Men: First Class was a mistake. As a result of her growing star power since then, the character has been featured far more prominently in stories that she really shouldn't be.

With regard to this trailer specifically, Sophie Turner has been okay as Jean Grey, but I'm not really invested in her as a character. Then again, I never really have been.

My introduction to the X-Men was the 90's cartoon, in which Jean was usually a background character who mostly existed as a source for tension between Cyclops and Wolverine. She was generally too passive to grab my attention, certainly when there were more interesting characters like Storm, Rogue, and Gambit around. As a result, I've never been that invested in the versions of the Phoenix story I have seen.

So I'm really not terribly excited for this at all.

[Ramza00]

My introduction to the X-Men was the 90's cartoon, in which Jean was usually a background character who mostly existed as a source for tension between Cyclops and Wolverine. She was generally too passive to grab my attention, certainly when there were more interesting characters like Storm, Rogue, and Gambit around. As a result, I've never been that invested in the versions of the Phoenix story I have seen.

So I'm really not terribly excited for this at all.

Passive is a word for 90s Jean Grey.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzc5VHL1bPM

[GrayDeath]

Now that setup could have been a good, but not very good, movie (like all the Reboot XMen were) .... IF we had had a movie or 2 to connect to Jean.

As we didnt, its going to be a SFXFest with vague Connection to the other movies (also like all but First Class^^), so...meh.

[GloatingSwine]

I think they should hold off introducing Wolverine again for a while then make him comic accurate as possible. 5’3” of all the rage in Canada.

[Clertar]

Well, it's based on the same story, so...



Yes and no. The Dark Phoenix storyline in the comics was very different from the way it was played out in X-Men 3. And this movie looks like it's re-adapting the plot of the worst entry in the X-Men film trilogy rather than adapting the original story. One wonders why.

[Maryring]

"You're always sorry. And there's always a speech. And no one cares."

Took the words right out of my mouth strange person who is so bland I couldn't recognize you at all. This trailer is everything I've seen in a trailer before, telling me only that the movie will be riddled with the same old tropes I've always seen. I like Jean-Grey, but I've no interest in watching this movie.

[GloatingSwine]

Yes and no. The Dark Phoenix storyline in the comics was very different from the way it was played out in X-Men 3. And this movie looks like it's re-adapting the plot of the worst entry in the X-Men film trilogy rather than adapting the original story. One wonders why.

Because despite the success of the MCU, weird and wild as some of it gets, the X-Men films are determined to be more grounded and less comic book.

Cosmic spirit of birth and rebirth is too much for them so we get tedious “oh no her power is too much for her and makes her the evils”.

Reboot the X-Men. Do it properly.

[Ramza00]

"You're always sorry. And there's always a speech. And no one cares."

I am glad that we live in a society where we can have a movie about two bitter gay exes from Disney.

https://bottomshelfmovies.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/32C5E8B7-7A43-40E8-B0FF-7236C8092723.jpeg

I thought it was a one off thing after this miraculous movie.

[Darth Ultron]

Well, this does not look so good......

It mostly looks like a remake of X-Men 3. So...we just get 'Dark Jean', called 'Dark Phoenix' for no reason....and she becomes 'Dark', for no reason.

I will grant that the comic 'Dark Phoenix' story line is not all that ''great". Like, ''Jean", sort of gets possessed by a 'fire bird'(but like not really, wow is this a mess) and then you have ''typical uncanny X-men adventures." Then, for mostly no reason, the Shair pop in and say ''(not)Jean must die!", Phoenix eats one planet...and the X-men act like 3 year old with ''you can't kill(not) Jean will will fight and (not) kill you first. So, pointless x-man vs space x-man fights.....then (not) Jean kills herself. It's, not really the best stand alone story ever.

The only thing that makes it a good and popular story is that it had popular characters in it. Anyone who had been reading X-men for a while loved the story, as they loved the characters. (even if the story is a lie as it's not really Jean anyway).

But the movie only has less then two hours, so you can't really build much. Really, they would need a whole movie to do that.


And, I guess they are still going with ''Jean has a Dark Hyde side" from X-man 3, and not the cosmic fire bird?

And we get Magneto in Discount (Not) Genesoia?

And no aliens, right...but we will get the whole ''good vs bad fight"

And guess the only ending is for Dark Phoenix to kill herself? Though guess they could Disney it and be like ''oh only the Dark dies, and Jean is happy and alive."

[Rogar Demonblud]

I have a suspicion that the main attraction for this version of Jean is “Look everyone, it’s Sansa Stark!”

I honestly have a hard time remembering much of anything about GoT since I quit watching, so that isn't much of a sell point.

[Legato Endless]

Oh look. Mutant Dad and Other-Mutant Dad are fighting again. :smallsigh:

I'm kind of sick of the cyclical nature of Magneto and Charles' off-again on-again romance. If their relationship actually evolved, I'd at least have something to invest in. They really need to find a new argument. Either agree to disagree, kill him, or move on already.


Yes and no. The Dark Phoenix storyline in the comics was very different from the way it was played out in X-Men 3. And this movie looks like it's re-adapting the plot of the worst entry in the X-Men film trilogy rather than adapting the original story. One wonders why.

The answer's quite simple. It's directed and written by Simon Kinberg. He was part of the team that scripted X-3. He was also involved in the last two films.


Because despite the success of the MCU, weird and wild as some of it gets, the X-Men films are determined to be more grounded and less comic book.

Cosmic spirit of birth and rebirth is too much for them so we get tedious “oh no her power is too much for her and makes her the evils”.

I think the problems are more fundamental than that. I state this because the Phoenix is confirmed as a separate cosmic entity in this movie (https://www.tor.com/2018/09/27/watch-first-dark-phoenix-trailer-x-men-jean-grey/comment-page-1/).

And yet everything still looks pretty underwhelming...

[Noldo]

I think the problems are more fundamental than that. I state this because the Phoenix is confirmed as a separate cosmic entity in this movie (https://www.tor.com/2018/09/27/watch-first-dark-phoenix-trailer-x-men-jean-grey/comment-page-1/).

And yet everything still looks pretty underwhelming...

Doesn’t that plot synopsis share awfully lot with the basic setup of Captain Marvel?

[Zevox]

They threw Phoenix into "Apocalypse?" Huh, didn't know that, since I never went to see Apocalypse. Honestly, after not being much of a fan of Days of Future Past (which, to be fair, is partially expected, I've never much liked the X-Men storylines that involve time travel), I sort of wrote First Class off as a fluke and have been ignoring the X-Men films. And seems like I should continue to do so.

Though, to be fair, who can tell anything from the trailer? Seems like all action films, especially superhero ones, follow the same generic template for their trailers, so they all end up looking and sounding alike to me at this point, and the clips that we get from them are so short that it's hard to judge anything based on them, at least for me. But still, another pass at Dark Phoenix? Nah, doesn't sound worth my time.

[Palanan]

For me, Jean Grey was one of the most interesting of the X-Men, because I started reading back when the character was complicated and involved, with a textured relationship with Scott and an almost fearful tension with Logan.

I find Sansa Grey to be completely colorless and uninvolving. And blaming Xavier seems too pat and too obvious, just another excuse for uninventive drama.

Meh. This does nothing to reverse my growing indifference to superhero movies. Apocalypse was painfully bad, and this doesn't promise anything more.

[Daimbert]

Well, this does not look so good......

It mostly looks like a remake of X-Men 3. So...we just get 'Dark Jean', called 'Dark Phoenix' for no reason....and she becomes 'Dark', for no reason.

I will grant that the comic 'Dark Phoenix' story line is not all that ''great". Like, ''Jean", sort of gets possessed by a 'fire bird'(but like not really, wow is this a mess) and then you have ''typical uncanny X-men adventures." Then, for mostly no reason, the Shair pop in and say ''(not)Jean must die!", Phoenix eats one planet...and the X-men act like 3 year old with ''you can't kill(not) Jean will will fight and (not) kill you first. So, pointless x-man vs space x-man fights.....then (not) Jean kills herself. It's, not really the best stand alone story ever.

Interestingly after you criticize this movie and X-Men 3 for having her go dark for no reason ... you leave out the reason she went dark in the comics. Mastermind of the Hellfire Club manipulated her mind after she gained her incredible Phoenix powers to corrupt her so she'd use it on behalf of the Hellfire Club. This went ... badly for them, and Dark Phoenix ended up destroying an inhabited planet, which is what triggered the Shi'ar to go after her, on behalf of the galactic council.

[Darth Ultron]

Interestingly after you criticize this movie and X-Men 3 for having her go dark for no reason ... you leave out the reason she went dark in the comics. Mastermind of the Hellfire Club manipulated her mind after she gained her incredible Phoenix powers to corrupt her so she'd use it on behalf of the Hellfire Club. This went ... badly for them, and Dark Phoenix ended up destroying an inhabited planet, which is what triggered the Shi'ar to go after her, on behalf of the galactic council.

Well...it's hard to say..um...what happened in the comics. After all the story of Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/Phoenix is one of the all time classic recons in comics.

And your story is the ''original'' story, that does not take into account the dozen or so recons.

After all, the Phoenix Force is a Chaotic Evil Cosmic Entity that ''eats the universe'', long before it possessed Jean(er, well, that is put the real Jean in a cocoon and made a copy of her body so it could 'play human' for a while). So, Mastermind did not do anything really. It was just one day the Phoenix Force decided to stop playing good human.

[Devonix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqVmd266VA8

Real reason why this one is probably going to fail.

[Erys]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqVmd266VA8

Real reason why this one is probably going to fail.

Dude nails it.

[Daimbert]

Well...it's hard to say..um...what happened in the comics. After all the story of Jean Grey/Marvel Girl/Phoenix is one of the all time classic recons in comics.

And your story is the ''original'' story, that does not take into account the dozen or so recons.

Well, okay, but surely when we're talking about adapting the original story fairly representing the original story matters, right?


After all, the Phoenix Force is a Chaotic Evil Cosmic Entity that ''eats the universe'', long before it possessed Jean(er, well, that is put the real Jean in a cocoon and made a copy of her body so it could 'play human' for a while). So, Mastermind did not do anything really. It was just one day the Phoenix Force decided to stop playing good human.

I haven't read through all of the many years of retcons, but from what I recall no one ever insisted that his influence had no impact. In fact, given that Rachel Summers and others had the Phoenix Force or parts of it at times, it seems more reasonable to believe that the Phoenix Force can be at least contained by the moral views of the body it's possessing. Mastermind weakening Jean's morals, then, gave it more of an opportunity to take over.

At any rate, inserting the Mastermind character would be a good option in the remakes for explaining Jean's turn to evil and loss of control.

[Devonix]

Well, okay, but surely when we're talking about adapting the original story fairly representing the original story matters, right?



I haven't read through all of the many years of retcons, but from what I recall no one ever insisted that his influence had no impact. In fact, given that Rachel Summers and others had the Phoenix Force or parts of it at times, it seems more reasonable to believe that the Phoenix Force can be at least contained by the moral views of the body it's possessing. Mastermind weakening Jean's morals, then, gave it more of an opportunity to take over.

At any rate, inserting the Mastermind character would be a good option in the remakes for explaining Jean's turn to evil and loss of control.

The retcon was that Jean was never actually the Phoenix. She was in a cocoon at the bottom of the ocean for the entirety of the Phoenix saga and didn't get out until all the stuff with Madeline Prior and Mr. Sinister.

The phoenix wasn't in her body, she just created a body that looked like her.

[Daimbert]

The retcon was that Jean was never actually the Phoenix. She was in a cocoon at the bottom of the ocean for the entirety of the Phoenix saga and didn't get out until all the stuff with Madeline Prior and Mr. Sinister.

The phoenix wasn't in her body, she just created a body that looked like her.

Sure, but Phoenix had to take on her memories and personality to pull off the deception. Mastermind playing on that weakened that personality and so would still have had an impact.

[Darth Ultron]

Well, okay, but surely when we're talking about adapting the original story fairly representing the original story matters, right?

The problem comes from what ''is'' the original story?




I haven't read through all of the many years of retcons, but from what I recall no one ever insisted that his influence had no impact. In fact, given that Rachel Summers and others had the Phoenix Force or parts of it at times, it seems more reasonable to believe that the Phoenix Force can be at least contained by the moral views of the body it's possessing. Mastermind weakening Jean's morals, then, gave it more of an opportunity to take over.

At any rate, inserting the Mastermind character would be a good option in the remakes for explaining Jean's turn to evil and loss of control.

Well, here is the thing though.....Mastermind never weakened Jean's morals...because that was not Jean. The person that Mastermind effected was the Fake Jean. See how that alters the whole story?

And yes, you could say...sometimes...a good mortal can ''contain" the Dark Phoenix Force. But, again, remember that the person Mastermind manipulated was NOT mortal...it was a copy of Jean possessed by the Phoenix Force.


Sure, but Phoenix had to take on her memories and personality to pull off the deception. Mastermind playing on that weakened that personality and so would still have had an impact.

Right? But your saying that Mastermind ''weakened" or "broke" the fake Jean copy mind that the Phoenix Force was using to 'play' human with. So it's like saying someone weakened/broke an actors fictional character. Not really the deep impact there....

[Devonix]

I pretty much ignore the whole Clone body thing because it was not the writer's intention and was just some afterthought forced in there years later because they wanted to use Jean and didn't want the character burdened by being a mass murderer.

[Darth Ultron]

To do the Phoenix story, they would really need to make it a three movie arc.

1.X-Men:Children of the Atom- the basic teen origin story. Professor X takes a back seat to more 'telepathic mentor' and the movie is focused on the kids. You don't really want a 'big villain' here, but more just individual evil mutants. Generally pick story idea from the early X-Men: The Vanasher, Uinus, and such. The Jean in this movie needs to be full Good Girl, to a fault. We need to see the pure as the wind driven snow Jean. And we need to see very Good Guy Scott/Cyclops too. And we need to see their Good Relationship....where they hold hands.

2.X-Men: Savage Land- The basic intro story is right out of the comics: Krakatoa, The Island That Walks Like A Man, captures the X-Men to eat. And sends Cyclops back to Professor X to get more mutants. Enter the second wave of X-Men, including Wolverine. The main story is the Savage Land story, with Magento and Sauron and such. The Jean in this movie tries to break her Good Girl mold....and is very much 'into' the savage Wolverine. This is right from the comics: Wolverine does his manly flirt, Jean woos, and Cyclops gets pissed. Asteroid M is a perfect fit here as to why the X-men go into space, though the Sentinel Space Station works too. Either way, X-Men save the day.....and the shuttle crashes. Cliffhanger.....

3.X-Men:Dark Phoenix- Again, the basic comic story: Jean survives the crash by pushing her powers to the limit. Now she is more powerful and confidant, but still good. You can use Mastermind to break Jeans mind...but also the simple ''absolute power corrupts absolutely" works too. Make the story more that Jean just can't help but to use her new powers. At first it is all good...but of course it gets darker. Then it leads to the climax with the Jean sacrifice.

That would do the story justice.....

[Mordar]

Dude nails it.

Amazingly accurate, minus the Cyclops = milquetoast part.

I started reading Uncanny X-Men at issue 145 and was able to get everything back to 129 in the following couple of months. That run of books is probably the most memorable and meaningful run of comics for me, and by a large margin. Yes, subsequent writers have tried to chisel away at it by "retconning" things that were never at all intended, but even teen-aged me knew those were just hacks and did not diminish the original storyline and the emotional impact it had.

That's why X-men 3 was horrible beyond words, and why X-men 3 v2 isn't going to be much better. They just keep missing the damn point. (Good job, Bob)

And yes, the Death of Phoenix was a great storyline (I prefer that title over Dark Phoenix storyline). Simple, yet clever. Visually amazing and emotional. Excellent use of the medium. (Great job Chris and John!)

- M

[Velaryon]

Passive is a word for 90s Jean Grey.

Good grief, it's even worse than I remember!

I LOL'ed at the number of times Rogue had to bail out Jean in this montage. No wonder I liked her so much more.

[Metahuman1]

Passive is a word for 90s Jean Grey.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzc5VHL1bPM

Sure was nice of them to try and count successes and hits were a group fo them got smacked in there to try and make her look worse.



But yeah, remaking X-men 3 was not the best idea. I though Singer was smarter than this. Though apparently it's now being pushed back to 2019 I'm hearing.


... ... ... be a freaking laugh riot if this thing preforms comparably to Captain Marvel.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It was previously set for February 2019, but it's been pushed back to June due to issues getting the VFX done (Marvel's kind of sucked up the capacity).

[Legato Endless]

Sure was nice of them to try and count successes and hits were a group fo them got smacked in there to try and make her look worse.

Ehhh. That scene with Spiral feels damning enough on its own. She warps in and starts zapping everyone. Sure, she got the drop on them, and it's the beginning of the episode, of course the X-men are gonna lose and get captured for the plot. Jean getting shot here or having her shields get overwhelmed would be fine here. However that would make her indistinguishable from her teammates.

Instead, Jean goes the extra distance of tripping the cord to an electrical outlet. I can't picture this happening to Wolverine or Rogue.

On that note, forget the Phoenix. Where's my Mojo movie?

[Olinser]

She wasn't even a character in Apocalypse. She was a plot device to get themselves out of the hole they'd written themselves into because there is absolutely zero reason Apocalypse shouldn't have won. They already had to make him a raging idiot for there to be a fight in the first place, and then

I mean seriously. Apocalypse had WON. He had Xavier. He could teleport. Nobody had the ability to find him. And instead of waiting just an hour until AFTER he'd absorbed Xavier, he had Magneto paint a giant bullseye HEY GUYS WE'RE OVER HERE. And then he was still too strong so they had to pull the Phoenix out of their collective buttholes to kill him.

Now they're making a whole movie based on the character that had maybe.... 3 minutes of dialog?

Yeah. This is definitely a 'pass, maybe watch on Netflix if I'm bored'.

[Darth Ultron]

Now they're making a whole movie based on the character that had maybe.... 3 minutes of dialog?


They are basing it on the very popular comic story from decades ago.

They think by tossing the name on a random X-Men movie will get people to go watch it.

[Olinser]

They are basing it on the very popular comic story from decades ago.

They think by tossing the name on a random X-Men movie will get people to go watch it.

I'm well aware of the comic storyline, how they already royally screwed it up in X3, and how they're already well on the way to repeating that same screwup.

The original Dark Phoenix storyline was highly popular because it took a generic unpopular background character that never did anything useful (Jean Grey) and put her through a massive personality change, power upgrade, and turn to Evil.

Here, as I said, the current movie Jean Grey isn't even a character. She's a plot device. In order to actually do the Dark Phoenix storyline they need an established Jean Grey so we can actually see and care about the personality changes. They kind of tried it in X3, at least they had her established as a character, but then they didn't do ANYTHING with the character, she literally just hung out in the background until suddenly decided to kill everything and get stabbed by Hugh Jackman. The actual character of the Dark Phoenix was utterly nonexistent.

[Devonix]

I'm well aware of the comic storyline, how they already royally screwed it up in X3, and how they're already well on the way to repeating that same screwup.

The original Dark Phoenix storyline was highly popular because it took a generic unpopular background character that never did anything useful (Jean Grey) and put her through a massive personality change, power upgrade, and turn to Evil.

Here, as I said, the current movie Jean Grey isn't even a character. She's a plot device. In order to actually do the Dark Phoenix storyline they need an established Jean Grey so we can actually see and care about the personality changes.

And the story only worked specifically because she was pretty much the most milktoast of the characters they had at the time. She was basically what people think of when they think of Gwen Stacy She was the sweet innocent girl next door. And they put the character through the wringer to see what happens when that character gets high on " Power " and sexual liberation.

You can't do the Phoenix story with this new character because she's already an outcast, The story of the Dark Phoenix is not a Carrie story and Brian Singer has never understood that.

[Velaryon]

Sure was nice of them to try and count successes and hits were a group fo them got smacked in there to try and make her look worse.

I noticed that too. But even if you leave those out, Jean is laughably incompetent in the 90's cartoon. Just about any time she tries to use her powers for anything, she ends up fainting or getting knocked out.

Some of my favorite bits from that video:

0:57 Jean trips and falls in the background for no reason.
1:58 While moving Sen. Kelly to safety, she drops him... for no reason. Although at least she manages not to faint this time.
3:23 Jean trips over an electrical cord and falls like one of the bungling criminals in Home Alone.

It would be one thing if these examples were cherry picked to make an otherwise competent character look bad, but this is pretty much standard for Jean in that cartoon. Even as the Phoenix, she was still prone to fainting or collapsing from even mild exertion. I really can't recall many examples of Jean saving the say or defeating enemies without getting knocked around or collapsing. Mostly she just ended up looking like she couldn't handle combat and needed constant rescuing.

[Olinser]

I noticed that too. But even if you leave those out, Jean is laughably incompetent in the 90's cartoon. Just about any time she tries to use her powers for anything, she ends up fainting or getting knocked out.

Some of my favorite bits from that video:

0:57 Jean trips and falls in the background for no reason.
1:58 While moving Sen. Kelly to safety, she drops him... for no reason. Although at least she manages not to faint this time.
3:23 Jean trips over an electrical cord and falls like one of the bungling criminals in Home Alone.

It would be one thing if these examples were cherry picked to make an otherwise competent character look bad, but this is pretty much standard for Jean in that cartoon. Even as the Phoenix, she was still prone to fainting or collapsing from even mild exertion. I really can't recall many examples of Jean saving the say or defeating enemies without getting knocked around or collapsing. Mostly she just ended up looking like she couldn't handle combat and needed constant rescuing.

The problem is that they made her theoretical abilities just too powerful when they created her so they had to make her an incompetent moron who forgets to use her powers so she didn't solve everything herself.

[Kitten Champion]

Telekinesis and telepathy are terrible power-sets for cartoons especially. You can add all the coloured swirly visual signifiers to it that you want but it's not going to make it very compelling or interactive, and the character using it can't be that strong or it would make the rest of the team obsolete like it did in the Apocalypse movie.

X-Men Evolutions solved some of this by making Jean's telekinetic powers more consistent and roughly on a level with the rest of the cast while very rarely touching on her telepathy at all. Also, all the characters in Evolutions were neophytes so mishandling her abilities was to be expected, unlike in the 90's X-Men cartoon where - outside of Jubilee - all the X-Men were fully trained adults and yet Jean still has this master-disciple arrangement with Xavier that put little confidence into the character.

[Dr.Samurai]

Passive is a word for 90s Jean Grey.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzc5VHL1bPM
Looks more like she's the opposite of passive and is actively involved even though she has trouble controlling her powers... :smallwink:

[Darth Ultron]

The problem is that they made her theoretical abilities just too powerful when they created her so they had to make her an incompetent moron who forgets to use her powers so she didn't solve everything herself.

This is a general problem with most cartoons and comics.

Like both Magneo and Juggernaut have special helmets so they can't be stopped by telepaths, like Jean. Ok, sure....but why can't she ''stop" every single other foe? A typical Juggernaut fight is ''get his helmet off so Jean can stop him"...ok, so why don't we see this with other foes like : Foe comes with in 100 feet...Jean stops them telepathically.

After reading dozens of comics where Jean would like ''use her power to wrap a blanket around a bad guy", there was one where suddenly she could telepathically put people to sleep. Awesome trick...but she just about never does it after that.

[Olinser]

This is a general problem with most cartoons and comics.

Like both Magneo and Juggernaut have special helmets so they can't be stopped by telepaths, like Jean. Ok, sure....but why can't she ''stop" every single other foe? A typical Juggernaut fight is ''get his helmet off so Jean can stop him"...ok, so why don't we see this with other foes like : Foe comes with in 100 feet...Jean stops them telepathically.

After reading dozens of comics where Jean would like ''use her power to wrap a blanket around a bad guy", there was one where suddenly she could telepathically put people to sleep. Awesome trick...but she just about never does it after that.

Yep. And alternately with Juggernaut, she should be able to disable him by literally just picking him up in the air. He's a strength based hero, he has no leverage in the air, he can't gather momentum, he'd be totally unable to do anything. Or just pull the helmet off with telekinesis. There's zero reason Juggernaut should ever be a threat to a telekinesis/telepathy hero.

At least with Magneto you could say she doesn't try because the helmet is metal and Magneto is more powerful than she is so she'd never be able to actually overpower him to remove it.

[Darth Ultron]

Yep.

Well...technically the Juggernauts power is magic that makes him unmovable by outside force....so that would include telekinesis. Though sure the MCU one is just ''Hulk Smash".

And telekinesis gets worse....depending on how much imagination the writer has. At the low end, you have ''oh I will tie up the bad guy with a rope". Then you get to ''pick up the bag guy and hold them in place". And then you go off the deep end with stuff like ''pinching a spot to knock them out or sucking the air from their lungs. "

Even a real trick she only ever used once I think of ''use telekines to close and hold eye lids shut". Right there, that alone is a near auto win for a lot of fights....

[Velaryon]

The problem is that they made her theoretical abilities just too powerful when they created her so they had to make her an incompetent moron who forgets to use her powers so she didn't solve everything herself.

I can see that, up to a point. It's basically the same problem that's come up in Order of the Stick several times, where The Giant had to neutralize the casters (particularly V) to keep the battle from being over laughably quickly. But he managed to do so without making his characters look like they had no business trying to get involved. Cartoon Jean faints and collapses so often it's a wonder they didn't keep her hospitalized.

[Zumbs]

The problem comes from what ''is'' the original story?
Claremont and Byrne had originally intended for Phoenix force to be cleaned away from Jean Grey, so she would have survived. The pages were drawn, but at the last moment, the editor forced them to change the ending. Claremont was quite furious and I suspect that caused him to introduce Madelyn Prior (love that name) and the notion that the Phoenix force had created a new Jean Grey while the real one had her radiation damage healed at the bottom of the sea.

[Darth Ultron]

Claremont and Byrne had originally intended for Phoenix force to be cleaned away from Jean Grey, so she would have survived. The pages were drawn, but at the last moment, the editor forced them to change the ending. Claremont was quite furious and I suspect that caused him to introduce Madelyn Prior (love that name) and the notion that the Phoenix force had created a new Jean Grey while the real one had her radiation damage healed at the bottom of the sea.

Well, no I was taking about the 'real' story 'in' the fiction. The basic comic book problem is that every other writer makes 'new' history and randomly changes or just ignores any previous history.

Like there is a wacky story that the Phoenix came to Earth like a million years ago and..um..founded the prehistoric X-men(and created mutants?)...and ''made'' human hosts.....or, er, Jean Grey is and always has been a breed Phoenix host body and not a natural human being.

Assuming the above story is true....''for now"...that makes Jean just a bio-robot and not a person.

Though the Jean Grey being alive was because Marvel wanted to do X-Factor with the Original X-men. And Jean was long ''dead'' in the comics by that time. So they came up with a wacky way for her to be alive and join the team.

[Zumbs]

Well, no I was taking about the 'real' story 'in' the fiction. The basic comic book problem is that every other writer makes 'new' history and randomly changes or just ignores any previous history.
Yeah, somewhere in the mid 90s I got of the X-Men train. Lobdell just wasn't anywhere near as good as Claremont. And as you say, the whole retconning of old stuff, e.g. how every year the origin of Wolverine was hit by a sudden reversal (though that was Larry Hama, IIRC), until no one could see straight.


Though the Jean Grey being alive was because Marvel wanted to do X-Factor with the Original X-men. And Jean was long ''dead'' in the comics by that time. So they came up with a wacky way for her to be alive and join the team.
You know, I think you are right. X-Factor was not contrived by Claremont, and he was not happy when he found out. Partly because it meant that nice guy Cyclops had to walk out on his wife (not a nice guy move).