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View Full Version : DM Help DM's dilemma: party vs an hired assassin



Hyperversum
2018-09-28, 07:33 AM
So, a bit of context: the game is a "modified version" of Pathfinder/D&D 3.5 that we developed as party during the years, some of the rules are different and modified for the setting, but in general the concepts are the same.
The party is composed by 5 players with most of them between level 8/7 (Elf druid, Human Shadow-walker rogue, Human Warblade, Goliath Monk, Gnome Wizard of venerable age) and the setting is a pretty high magic one.
The campaign brought them against a diabolic cult: before they resolved the murder of a count who was part of the cult but wanted to leave, done by another cultist and after they attacked their "fortress" destroying the main part of the armed forces of the cult.
The problem starts from the fact they didn't take part in the interrogation of the murderer, and the counselor of the old count swiftly disposed of him, since in reality he is the highest ranking member of the cult.

Now, this leader isn't in danger since the party think that by destroying their main base and killing the commander of that place the cult was destroyed, but he obviously holds a grudge against 'em, and since some of his new actions (like, killing other possible traitors and so on) could make them understand that the cult still exists he wants to kill them or at least make them too afraid to deal with him again.

The most efficient way would probably be to kill them while they are far from his county, like they are now.

My problem now is: how "fair" as a DM action is this one? In-universe there is no reason why they wouldn't have to face this problem, they are paying for letting their guard down at the most relevant moment, it just makes sense that the leader cultist will try to take his revenge some how. If they think that they are safe and don't take any protection against intruders, there is no reason why the killer wouldn't be able to easily kill the most vulnerable of them with a Death Attack and maybe even one more during a possible fight when they are tired, without armors ready etc, in order to just retreat and keep 'em on guard and fearful. Even if one of them die, at their level and given their situation (They know some people who could cast Resurrection spells for them quite easily, even just the archdruid of the druid PC, they are near him and they just helped him) this wouldn't be the end of the PC.

But from the POV of a player, this would be a quite annoying event and I would avoid to discuss after the session about how it was "too much of a danger the party couldn't be aware of off", since I can't explain them that THEY COULD PERFECTLY without spoiling the reasons.

What could I do to make it look "more legit" as a series of event?

Darth Tom
2018-09-28, 07:42 AM
One way around this would be to not make it "BAMF! Assassin out of nowhere!". Instead, play the assassin as an NPC who needs to figure out where the PCs are, their status, equipment, etc. This might give them a chance to overhear a conversation, or see a shadowy figure, notice someone spying on them, etc. At that point it is far more fair, and also far more fun because they get to do some "spy v spy" shenanigans.

I feel that you may be using the "realism" argument as an excuse to punish the players for not taking part in the interrogation. This would be unfair. It might be worth asking them why they didn't. Perhaps they just aren't that into this aspect of the story, and want to get on with something else, elsewhere.

Seto
2018-09-28, 07:56 AM
Depends on how rough you wanna be, and what your players are used to. It's important to realize that what you do will teach them something about what kind of game you want to run. If you want to teach them "I value in-universe logic over metagame concepts like fair challenge", go ahead with the deadly attack. They can Resurrect the dead anyway.

If your statement is more like "I want my game design to feel fair, but I also value in-universe logic, and you guys should really be more careful / more aware of consequences to your choices", I suggest sending the assassin and making it a hard fight, but avoiding the Death Attack. Especially if it's the first time your game has featured something like this, and you want to make them understand you're upping the challenge. There are easy ways to do this without sacrificing logic or narrative: the easiest way would be to narrative-fiat it.
Example: Player X (with the highest Perception), as your companions are sleeping soundly, you keep rolling around on your bed. You feel strangely restless, and slumber is eluding you. In the darkest hours of the night, you freeze. Was that your imagination, or did you hear a twig snap? You turn to face the direction of the noise, and you see a humanoid shape standing over you, knife in hand. Roll Initiative.

That way, you've got yourself quite a hard fight: everyone prone, no armor, most of the party still asleep. It will send the message that they can be ambushed and shouldn't let their guard down, and I guarantee you that in the future, they'll take more precautions, at the very least have a watchman. But they won't get TPKed without having a chance to fight, either.

Hyperversum
2018-09-28, 08:04 AM
Oh well yeah, obviously, the first part (making them "meet" the problem) was already planned in reality but I didn't write it down, let me do it now with another thing.

The killer isn't supposed to be a random dude (It's an already established NPC of the setting, a Fey'Ri assassin working for various demonic and diabolic cult trying to find out his own origins, since in the setting the Fey'Ri are just the elvish version of Tiefling but are extremely rare and aren't born from common fiends) he has the support of magic in finding them because...
The cultist-leader knows perfectly where they have gone. They were in hia city when they met the Goliath Monk looking for the rest of the party in order to ask the druid to come back home and help the archdruid with a problem in their own lands. Hearing this discussion happening in the city is quite easy for him, being it full of his own informers, cultists and not. Therefore the assassin was literally told "They are heading towards the druidic circle of Freholdan in the north", but he couldn't directly reach the circle, being it to dangerous to enter elven lands for a Fey'Ri.

Now they are going out of the elvish territories towards a city where they could find help from a famed Archivist to know how to remove a "supernatural disease" that influenced part of the forests. The assassin is stalking them while they go to this small town and plans to polymorph into a normal tiefling and using the fear of the commoners of that land for Tieflings he will ask them to "Buy some things inside the town and bring them back to me, since I can't enter", in order to meet them, ask them who they are ect.
All of this to gather more information and plan an attack.
So yeah, the "Spy vs Spy" situation is heavily in favour of the dude because he just have a lot more of informations compared to them.

About the punishment... no, honestly I am not. This was originally a sub-plot slightly touching the original reasons for the party adventuring, it was the party itself to decide to "Avenge" the Count.
And while I DON'T like to kill PCs (The "supernatural disease" was related to the Nephandum Dragons, a 3rd party setting that we used to create our own setting, and to block the spreading of the disease they fought one of these dragons who could have killed two downed PCs, and it should have done so because the dragons are described to "find joy in killing and maiming their opponents, going out of their way and safety to inflict more misery upon mortals" but I haven't done it because it was just focusing on the poor Monk and Rogue) not putting them into danger now would just nullify the tension of the campaign. I mean, if they don't have to fear a Cleric of Asmodeus, who could put them into danger?

Given these info, do you still think that I should guess if they are just not that much into it and focus on something else even by cutting out a part of this story or should I try to find a way to make it feel less "unexpected"?

P.S. Didn't see your comment Seto, I was writing my own!
Yeah, I want to give a fair challange but personally I value the in-universe logic more. And the idea of making it an "ambush" rather than "assassination" is probably what would work the best.
I can't cut out the "Assassin" part and make him work just like a level 10 rogue with maybe one or two scrolls that also leads there a small group of low levels Thugs (the class from UA) rushing in when the Fey'Ri is in danger.
It would result in a fight where they are at disadvantage but not as getting stabbed during sleep, and I could end the fight once they can damage the "assassin" enough and kill the Thugs, with the Fey'Ri escaping, which would still leave the "Keep your guard up guys".

Glorthindel
2018-09-28, 09:09 AM
The problem depends on how much your players trust you. Assuming a high level of trust in your fairness and ability, it is unlikely the players will assume you are just screwing them out on nowhere. When it happens, give a quick apology and say "I assure you, there is a very good reason why this has happened, and there definitely was chances to avoid this happening, but this is just how its played out". If they trust you, that will just inspire them to try and find out what they have missed or overlooked.

I have done similar things before, and as my group has played under me for years, they know I am not the sort to "rocks fall" them for no reason, and they accepted that they missed something, and were more on their guard in the future. Which lead to a very satisfying moment later in the campaign when the clues they had previously ignored snowballed and slotted together, and they realised why several things that had seemed to come from nowhere had happened.

Knaight
2018-09-28, 09:58 AM
I'd steer clear of a death attack - as you described it it sounds like the assassin would hit one member of the party, kill them, fight the rest, kill at most one, then lose and die. That's not a course of action very many are going to take, what with the dying and all. Instead, the assassin would likely try other methods - poisoning them all, some sort of trap, subcontracting out an ambush to a bunch of bandits, whatever, with less risk. These are fairly likely to fail (as by the time the assassin finds the PCs they'll be more powerful than the intel provided suggests), and give the players a major hint that someone is after them and to step up their guard.

YohaiHorosha
2018-09-28, 12:16 PM
1) I'd drop crazy rumors about the interrogation. Let the players realized they missed juicy info.
2) let them hear rumors of the cult's actions
3) let them in on info about retribution

These three make them sweat. Like, nonstop.

Then let the endless array of would-be assassins come at them.

During short rests. Long rests. It never ends.

Then hit them with a "you should have seen this coming moment ..."

Make their actions matter, and that have consequences.

Hyperversum
2018-09-28, 12:28 PM
The problem depends on how much your players trust you. Assuming a high level of trust in your fairness and ability, it is unlikely the players will assume you are just screwing them out on nowhere. When it happens, give a quick apology and say "I assure you, there is a very good reason why this has happened, and there definitely was chances to avoid this happening, but this is just how its played out". If they trust you, that will just inspire them to try and find out what they have missed or overlooked.

I have done similar things before, and as my group has played under me for years, they know I am not the sort to "rocks fall" them for no reason, and they accepted that they missed something, and were more on their guard in the future. Which lead to a very satisfying moment later in the campaign when the clues they had previously ignored snowballed and slotted together, and they realised why several things that had seemed to come from nowhere had happened.

Maybe I should just tone It down a bit as said in the previous comment and follow this idea. After all, they aren't just little kids, they Can understand that sometimes the game gets rough. Maybe I am worrying top much.


I'd steer clear of a death attack - as you described it it sounds like the assassin would hit one member of the party, kill them, fight the rest, kill at most one, then lose and die. That's not a course of action very many are going to take, what with the dying and all. Instead, the assassin would likely try other methods - poisoning them all, some sort of trap, subcontracting out an ambush to a bunch of bandits, whatever, with less risk. These are fairly likely to fail (as by the time the assassin finds the PCs they'll be more powerful than the intel provided suggests), and give the players a major hint that someone is after them and to step up their guard.

I was speaking about how much damage this NPC should be able to do, that he was planning to do so.
The point is that the assassin knows what they can do. As said above, his informations come directly from a man they trust.
When they destroyed the cultists base didn't say him directly so, yet they let know in the city what happened, and anyway the survivors of the cult run straight to him. Between those events and the situation they are in now didn't pass more than one month and most of this time they have spent It going back to home. So yeah, there is no reason why he would understimate someone like that.
But for sure those are still good tests that he could make to check some things and choose how to act.
Also making the casters use at least One or two spells is already something.


1) I'd drop crazy rumors about the interrogation. Let the players realized they missed juicy info.
2) let them hear rumors of the cult's actions
3) let them in on info about retribution

These three make them sweat. Like, nonstop.

Then let the endless array of would-be assassins come at them.

During short rests. Long rests. It never ends.

Then hit them with a "you should have seen this coming moment ..."

Make their actions matter, and that have consequences.

That's what I was planning to do, but they are now away from where people would know of that. The whole actions of the cult leader revolves around the fact that they are far away from his own town. In order to reduce the possibility to get caught/leave info about what happened.

Darth Ultron
2018-09-28, 01:41 PM
It does depend how ''gritty" and "real" you want the game. If you want gritty and real, just do whatever makes sense.

If you want more Fantasy and Heroic, then you have to be fair.

A perfect classic thing to do, is have the assassin set a trap like:

1.One or all of the players get a castle (''long lost uncle Otto passed away").....and the castle is a death trap made by the assassin. You want to build this up as more of an adventure like ghosts or goblins raided the empty castle and have to be cleared out before the PCs can claim it.

2.The assassin sets up some ''olympic games" D&D style or gladiatorial combat....and naturally invites the PCs. Of course, each game is a death trap....

3.Have the assassin, in disguise or by a third party, hire the PCs for something ''too" dangerous. The Tower of Doom on the Island of Death in the Sea of No Return....yes, can the PCs raid that tower. The sneaky assassin can 'sweeten the pot by adding something the PCs want there(real or fake).

4.Have the assassin, in disguise or by a third party put out a bounty on the PCs. Maybe for something else they did. This has the fun of lots of ''bounty hunter fights".

5.Have the assassin join with the current BBEG..."Oh, yes, I know this band of adventures ell...muuhahahah"

Kaptin Keen
2018-09-28, 02:54 PM
If you're worried, just drop a hint!

It's not hard: Oh, hey, you guys are the heroes from that thing - there was a guy asking around after you, I'm sure he wanted to thank you. Looked kinda shady, but I'm sure it's fine. I told him that inn you're all staying at. That's ok, right?

Otherwise do a lot of rolling behind the screen until they get suspicious enough to set a watch - then have the assassin strike.

Or decide it's a game, and deciding stuff by diceroll is fine: Have the assassin attack. Might still roll poorly, on either attack or stealth, and not actually be succesful in one-shotting the cuddly halfling.

Hyperversum
2018-09-28, 05:38 PM
It does depend how ''gritty" and "real" you want the game. If you want gritty and real, just do whatever makes sense.

If you want more Fantasy and Heroic, then you have to be fair.

A perfect classic thing to do, is have the assassin set a trap like:

1.One or all of the players get a castle (''long lost uncle Otto passed away").....and the castle is a death trap made by the assassin. You want to build this up as more of an adventure like ghosts or goblins raided the empty castle and have to be cleared out before the PCs can claim it.

2.The assassin sets up some ''olympic games" D&D style or gladiatorial combat....and naturally invites the PCs. Of course, each game is a death trap....

3.Have the assassin, in disguise or by a third party, hire the PCs for something ''too" dangerous. The Tower of Doom on the Island of Death in the Sea of No Return....yes, can the PCs raid that tower. The sneaky assassin can 'sweeten the pot by adding something the PCs want there(real or fake).

4.Have the assassin, in disguise or by a third party put out a bounty on the PCs. Maybe for something else they did. This has the fun of lots of ''bounty hunter fights".

5.Have the assassin join with the current BBEG..."Oh, yes, I know this band of adventures ell...muuhahahah"

Their situation is pretty limited on what the assassin can do... but getting creative with the murder is something I didn't think about, I must be honest!
I should really think about him observing and "playing" tricks on them for a while. For sure the bounty will be there but also a huge trap that is an entire narrative section looks cool.


If you're worried, just drop a hint!

It's not hard: Oh, hey, you guys are the heroes from that thing - there was a guy asking around after you, I'm sure he wanted to thank you. Looked kinda shady, but I'm sure it's fine. I told him that inn you're all staying at. That's ok, right?

Otherwise do a lot of rolling behind the screen until they get suspicious enough to set a watch - then have the assassin strike.

Or decide it's a game, and deciding stuff by diceroll is fine: Have the assassin attack. Might still roll poorly, on either attack or stealth, and not actually be succesful in one-shotting the cuddly halfling.

As said previously, he already have some info, so that would just make him look like an idiot but... damn, I didn't think about rolling things to make them think "Oh **** something is going on". It's so meta that I love it.

Said so... I am finally home and tomorrow I will work on it, but for sure I was thinking about using one of the idea I said above myself: having the assassin disguised where they are going "following" them for a bit before going straight into their face to speak with them and check that everything is as it was said to him. From there, if they trust him, I can really get creative.
Also, they are in a moment where their usual "main supporter" is hidden somewhere, and I have to wait. So it's quite easy to tempt them into something.