Planar Binding Question

[Millface]

Whenever summoner classes are brought up, people will inevitably mention Planar Binding as a way to bind a creature to you without using a concentration slot... isn't this wrong?

With this spell, you attempt to bind a celestial, an elemental, a fey, or a fiend to your service. The creature must be within range for the entire casting of the spell. (Typically, the creature is first summoned into the center of an inverted magic circle in order to keep it trapped while this spell is cast.) At the completion of the casting, the target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, it is bound to serve you for the duration. If the creature was summoned or created by another spell, that spell’s duration is extended to match the duration of this spell. A bound creature must follow your instructions to the best of its ability. You might command the creature to accompany you on an adventure, to guard a location, or to deliver a message. The creature obeys the letter of your instructions, but if the creature is hostile to you, it strives to twist your words to achieve its own objectives. If the creature carries out your instructions completely before the spell ends, it travels to you to report this fact if you are on the same plane of existence. If you are on a different plane of existence, it returns to the place where you bound it and remains there until the spell ends.

The way this reads, if you conjure the creature yourself and use Planar Binding you would still have to concentrate on it, it simply changes the spell you already have going to a larger duration.

Am I reading this incorrectly? If you stop concentrating on the spell are they still bound to this plane and your service?

[JackPhoenix]

Note there's a problem: Conjure x spells have 1-hour duration, and Planar Binding has 1-hour casting time. The creature has to be summoned first, which means the creature will disappear just before you finish binding it. Moreover, casting spells with casting time longer than 1 action cost your concentration, so you can't keep concentrating at the conjuring spell at the same time.

There are ways around that issue (multiple casters, Glyph of Warding charged with the summoning spell, duplicating Planar Binding through Wish), but it's not as simple as it looks at the first glance.

[Millface]

Note there's a problem: Conjure x spells have 1-hour duration, and Planar Binding has 1-hour casting time. The creature has to be summoned first, which means the creature will disappear just before you finish binding it. Moreover, casting spells with casting time longer than 1 action cost your concentration, so you can't keep concentrating at the conjuring spell at the same time.

There are ways around that issue (multiple casters, Glyph of Warding charged with the summoning spell, duplicating Planar Binding through Wish), but it's not as simple as it looks at the first glance.

Well... even with multiple casters the summon spells would fizzle right as the planar binding resolves. You'd have to cast an extended summon in that case. At which point... I still can't tell if the caster that originally summoned it would have to concentrate on it for it to stay in the plane or if it would go back to its home plane when they stopped.

How do you actually use Planar Binding? Do you have to just find a planar entity that's already on your plane and trap it? That's more complicated and "never gonna actually happen" than what I've been led to believe here.

[dejarnjc]

Well... even with multiple casters the summon spells would fizzle right as the planar binding resolves.

Just ready an action to cast planar binding...duh.

Honestly though, most DMs I know would just waive most of the fiddly difficulties in utilizing this spell.

[MaxWilson]

Note there's a problem: Conjure x spells have 1-hour duration, and Planar Binding has 1-hour casting time. The creature has to be summoned first, which means the creature will disappear just before you finish binding it. Moreover, casting spells with casting time longer than 1 action cost your concentration, so you can't keep concentrating at the conjuring spell at the same time.

3:00:00 pm, start casting Conjure Elemental.
3:01:00 pm, done casting Conjure Elemental, start casting Planar Binding
4:01:00 pm, done casting Planar Binding, Conjure Elemental ends. Elemental does not disappear because it is now bound by Planar Binding.

The spells are clearly intended to work together, and by the book they work together works just fine. You can try to make some kind of argument about how logically it should take some fraction of a second between finishing casting one spell and starting another, but if you do you're just creating trouble for yourself out of thin air.

It is true that you can't concentrate on Conjure Elemental while casting Planar Binding, and that you therefore have to pair with another caster or deal with an uncontrolled elemental. But that's not a big deal. Elementals aren't good at escaping from Magic Circles anyway. Dealing with magic-resistant spellcasting demons is however a whole 'nother kettle of fish.


The way this reads, if you conjure the creature yourself and use Planar Binding you would still have to concentrate on it, it simply changes the spell you already have going to a larger duration.

Am I reading this incorrectly? If you stop concentrating on the spell are they still bound to this plane and your service?

Yes, you're reading it incorrectly. The whole point of concentration is that it's part of a spell's duration, and normally if you cease to concentrate on something, the spell ends. Planar Binding's duration is not concentration-dependent, so you can stop worrying about concentration for that summon.

[NaughtyTiger]

It is clear that the spells are intended to work together with 2 casters.

For a single caster, there are 2 other options:
Glyph of Warding + Planar Binding (2 5th level slots), then the next day summon an elemental order it into the glyph. and if it fails the save, you own it.

Magic circle at 4th level (2 hours), summon elemental and order it into the circle. get an ale, parch your thirst, and start planar binding.
[edit: i wasincorrect, MC doe not extend the spell]

[Millface]

Yes, you're reading it incorrectly. The whole point of concentration is that it's part of a spell's duration, and normally if you cease to concentrate on something, the spell ends. Planar Binding's duration is not concentration-dependent, so you can stop worrying about concentration for that summon.

Ok, all of this makes sense. I just wanted to confirm that.

If the party has some down time and two casters with Conjure Elemental/Planar binding and are level 13 can't they basically just break the game though?

Conjure Fire Elemental, then cast Planar Binding at 7th level. Fire elemental has -2 to CHA saves, so you're going to succeed on more downtime days than not. The orders you give it are to accompany fight with you for the entirety of your next adventure. The spells wording specifically says that something that vague is acceptable. If both casters have both spells, then you're theoretically able to bind two CR 5 Elementals per down time day for 30 days. Spend two weeks doing this and your party gets to bring ~20 elementals with them on their next dungeon delve and become effectively invincible.

At the table of course the DM will have several ways of dealing with this, from forcing time constraints to having the players cause an angry primordial elemental to muster forces against them for abusing their kind, but still, sounds pretty busted to me.

Keep in mind that I wouldn't do this kind of cheese, I'd use it to have a Myrmidon or something like that to lead my other summons on a Shepherd Druid or something and keep it reasonable, but if you don't have to concentrate this spell is right up there with wish/simulacrum. If you've got the time, the RAW apparently doesn't mind you having a near infinite army of planar beings doing your bidding at once.

Does give me a really fun idea for my next BBEG though, when the time comes for me to take my table back over.

[MaxWilson]

It is clear that the spells are intended to work together with 2 casters.

For a single caster, there are 2 other options:
Glyph of Warding + Planar Binding (2 5th level slots), then the next day summon an elemental order it into the glyph. and if it fails the save, you own it.

Magic circle at 4th level (2 hours), summon elemental and order it into the circle. get an ale, parch your thirst, and start planar binding.

Also potentially, you could use means of restraint other than Magic Circle. E.g. you could summon a Water Elemental into a pit. 5E's climbing rules make this more difficult (anything can climb half as fast as it can walk) but your DM may not go strictly by those rules for non-humanoids.

In theory you could also just get on a horse and follow the elemental around casting Planar Binding the whole time (unlike AD&D, 5E doesn't require spellcasters to remain stationary) but that is a bit silly and would also be vulnerable to Dashing shenanigans on the part of the elemental, unless the terrain was at least partly difficult terrain. Cheesy and not worth exploring more deeply.


Ok, all of this makes sense. I just wanted to confirm that.

If the party has some down time and two casters with Conjure Elemental/Planar binding and are level 13 can't they basically just break the game though?

Well, yeah, if they have enough material components. But you can break 5E long before level 13. You can break it at first level if everyone in the whole party is a variant human with the Mobile feat. 5E is like Master of Magic: half the entertainment value lies in thinking up ways to break the game that are different from how you broke it last time. The fact that the whole game is calibrated to be extremely easy by DMG guidelines (low risk of death, let alone TPK) only exacerbates that trend.

Arguably, 5E's whole raison d'etre is to allow players to express themselves by breaking the game in ways that fit their character concept.


Conjure Fire Elemental, then cast Planar Binding at 7th level. Fire elemental has -2 to CHA saves, so you're going to succeed on more downtime days than not. The orders you give it are to accompany fight with you for the entirety of your next adventure. The spells wording specifically says that something that vague is acceptable. If both casters have both spells, then you're theoretically able to bind two CR 5 Elementals per down time day for 30 days. Spend two weeks doing this and your party gets to bring ~20 elementals with them on their next dungeon delve and become effectively invincible.

Sure. How often do you see a non-sandbox 5E adventure where that wouldn't be ridiculous overkill? Is it really worth the 20,000 gp of gemstones you just spent, or would 2000 gp have been plenty?


At the table of course the DM will have several ways of dealing with this, from forcing time constraints to having the players cause an angry primordial elemental to muster forces against them for abusing their kind, but still, sounds pretty busted to me.

Yep. So? You can spend 20,000 gp summoning elementals to fight the dragon, or 20,000 bribing the hobgoblin army from last adventure to fight with you against the dragon instead of against you. Both are "busted" in the sense of "very powerful," but that doesn't mean they can't be fun.


Keep in mind that I wouldn't do this kind of cheese, I'd use it to have a Myrmidon or something like that to lead my other summons on a Shepherd Druid or something and keep it reasonable, but if you don't have to concentrate this spell is right up there with wish/simulacrum. If you've got the time, the RAW apparently doesn't mind you having a near infinite army of planar beings doing your bidding at once.

If you have near infinite wealth (and your DM handwaves wealth => spell component conversion), then sure. Wealth is power. Nothing amazing about that.


Does give me a really fun idea for my next BBEG though, when the time comes for me to take my table back over.

For a nasty low-level BBEG, have an 8th level (or so) Necromancer who abuses Animate Dead every night to animate dead in the cemetery and launch them in the direction of his hated enemies in the next town over... and then makes no attempt whatsoever to re-assert control of them afterward. He can produce 18 skeletons every night. That's 378 HP worth of skeletons doing 153 DPR (times hit rate) every single night. Even if the PCs manage to kill all the skeletons in one group, possibly taking some civilian and/or PC casualties in the process, they only gain 900 XP from it, and then they have to do it all over again tomorrow.

If the Necromancer wants to be really nasty he can structure his long rests in order to launch groups of 36 skeletons every two days instead. That's 756 HP worth of skeletons doing 306 DPR...

[Segev]

Remember that 5e really is trying to say, "Make rulings that feel in line with the intent of the rules to you."

Unless you think it out of flavor for the lone wizard to conjure and bind demons to his will, you should rule in such a way that planar binding can work at the level you get it.

The intent, as far as I can tell, is that magic circle is used to trap and contain the creature you use conjure [whatever] to call up and then lapse concentration on. That is in no small part why the creature goes uncontrolled, rather than merely vanishing, if you cease Concentration. The durations involved match perfectly with the casting time of planar binding, clearly illustrating that the iconic image of a mage scribing a magic circle into which he summons a powerful entity and then spends time binding it to his will is what is meant to be evoked.

That the timings are just a little too perfect and thus getting all of them cast at the same time without one ending six seconds too soon is more likely an error in planning the precise game-timings than a deliberate intention.

[NaughtyTiger]

The other advantage is the Magic Circle extends the Summon Elemental spell to 2 hours. Allowing a single caster to do it and bypassing a strict read on 2 casters doing it. [nope, oops]

[MaxWilson]

The other advantage is the Magic Circle extends the Summon Elemental spell to 2 hours. Allowing a single caster to do it and bypassing a strict read on 2 casters doing it.

Magic Circle has no effect on Conjure Elemental duration.

[Millface]

I was hoping there was an official ruling on that, but at my two DM split time table at least I agree that this seems to be the intention, and I'm sure my partner DM would agree.

Sometime in the future I'm planning a Shepherd Druid, and these questions were just a part of me getting my ducks in a row for that. Conjure Animals is amazing, and then in the later levels I wanted to have a sort of "leader" summon to go with my smaller ones. As far as wealth goes, that varies from campaign to campaign. We had a ton of down time in the last one we played and amassed over a hundred thousand GP by level 10, started or bought several businesses and had a little kind of simulation mini game that was fun. When we ran tomb of annihilation there was zero down time and I think the party ended up with less than 10k by the same level.

I also had interest for another character of mine that's a Divine Soul Sorcerer to have summoned and bound a Couatl, for all intents and purposes, permanently. I'd missed the 1k gem in the components, so that really curbs the cheese potential for most campaigns in a way that brings it in line with something that's a powerful use of your time, but not broken.

[Segev]

The other advantage is the Magic Circle extends the Summon Elemental spell to 2 hours. Allowing a single caster to do it and bypassing a strict read on 2 casters doing it.


Magic Circle has no effect on Conjure Elemental duration.

Right. In practice, the timing DOES work out, if you're a little bold:

Cast magic circle. Cast conjure elemental and summon it into the circle. Spend 1 hour casting planar binding; the final round of casting, the magic circle expires and is the last round the elemental is present. If it's on the ball, it can attack you NOW (or try to flee your range for planar binding), but if you've got any other defenses at all, or just can avoid being smacked or letting it get away as you finish the last round of casting (winning initiative, perhaps, as long as it's not Ready to act the moment the circle is down), then you finish the binding in that last round, and it was only loose for one round before being bound to your will (and before it vanishes due to the lapsed duration on conjure elemental).

I think, though, that it's meant to work more smoothly than that, but the writers goofed on the timing.

[Millface]

Magic Circle has no effect on Conjure Elemental duration.

Wouldn't the elemental have to make a charisma save when the duration ends and have a solid chance of failing to return to its native plane? If it wants to leave the circle by magical means, it needs a charisma save.

[Callak_Remier]

Whenever summoner classes are brought up, people will inevitably mention Planar Binding as a way to bind a creature to you without using a concentration slot... isn't this wrong?

With this spell, you attempt to bind a celestial, an elemental, a fey, or a fiend to your service. The creature must be within range for the entire casting of the spell. (Typically, the creature is first summoned into the center of an inverted magic circle in order to keep it trapped while this spell is cast.) At the completion of the casting, the target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, it is bound to serve you for the duration. If the creature was summoned or created by another spell, that spell’s duration is extended to match the duration of this spell. A bound creature must follow your instructions to the best of its ability. You might command the creature to accompany you on an adventure, to guard a location, or to deliver a message. The creature obeys the letter of your instructions, but if the creature is hostile to you, it strives to twist your words to achieve its own objectives. If the creature carries out your instructions completely before the spell ends, it travels to you to report this fact if you are on the same plane of existence. If you are on a different plane of existence, it returns to the place where you bound it and remains there until the spell ends.

The way this reads, if you conjure the creature yourself and use Planar Binding you would still have to concentrate on it, it simply changes the spell you already have going to a larger duration.

Am I reading this incorrectly? If you stop concentrating on the spell are they still bound to this plane and your service?

The process of the binding requires concentration. Once completed success or fail concentration is no longer needed

[NaughtyTiger]

Magic Circle has no effect on Conjure Elemental duration.

source?

cuz per magic circle (assuming inverted)
"The creature can't willingly enter [leave] the Cylinder by nonmagical means. If the creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to do so, it must first succeed on a Charisma saving throw."
when a summoned element gets unsummoned he goes home to the primordial plane.
i have to interpret travelling between planes as "interplanar travel" nope

[MaxWilson]

source?

cuz per magic circle (assuming inverted)
"The creature can't willingly enter [leave] the Cylinder by nonmagical means. If the creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to do so, it must first succeed on a Charisma saving throw."
when a summoned element gets unsummoned he goes home to the primordial plane.
i have to interpret travelling between planes as "interplanar travel"

A summoning spell ending on you is not "willing... teleportation or interplanar travel." If it were, summoning spells on incapacitated elementals/demons would never end.

Think it through. An uncontrolled elemental (due to losing concentration) turns hostile and then vanishes 1 hour after it was summoned, no matter whether it went hostile 59 minutes ago or 6 seconds ago, no matter what the situation is or whether it can see the object of its enmity or not. If leaving were voluntary, do you really think none of those factors would affect its decision to leave?

When the hour is up, the elemental vanishes, full stop. It's no more "willing... interplanar travel" than Banishment is.

[NaughtyTiger]

A summoning spell ending on you is not "willing... teleportation or interplanar travel." If it were, summoning spells on incapacitated elementals/demons would never end.

So you are equating "willing interplanar travel" with "tries to use ... interplanar travel" (right?)
that is a reasonable interpretation.

your statement is that
magic circle does interfere with voluntary interplanar travel.
magic circle doesn't interfere with involuntary interplanar travel.

(let me know if I misinterpreted your statement)

my statement is that
magic circle does interfere with voluntary interplanar travel.
magic circle does interfere with involuntary interplanar travel

we disagree. and neither of us has provided evidence to support our statement.
i don't know of evidence that exists either way.

[MaxWilson]

my statement is that... magic circle does interfere with involuntary interplanar travel

we disagree. and neither of us has provided evidence to support our statement.
i don't know of evidence that exists either way.

What about the literal text of the spell that I just quoted? It literally says that it affects creatures that try to leave "willingly", through any means. If "the creature tries" to leave through teleportation/etc. it gets a saving throw. Clearly that's talking about voluntary movement that "the creature tries" to do.

I can support my interpretation directly from the spell text. I can elaborate in even more detail if necessary, though I hardly think you need me to stoop to that level of pedantry. NOTHING in the spell says it affects involuntary travel, through spell or any other means. It affects voluntary travel, and that's it.

(Amusingly, this means that multiple demons can shove each other through the barrier. They just can't move themselves.)

[NaughtyTiger]

What about the literal text of the spell that I just quoted? It literally says that it affects creatures that try to leave "willingly", through any means.

I can support my interpretation directly from the spell text. I quoted the relevant clause in my previous post. I can elaborate in more detail if necessary. Do you need me to break down the antecedents of each pronoun for you? NOTHING in the spell says it affects involuntary travel, through spell or any other means.

(Amusingly, this means that multiple demons can shove each other through the barrier. They just can't move themselves.)

the part you quoted was about "willingly entering [leaving]" we agreed on that part. well, we agree on it prevents willingly doing interplanar travel

we disagreed on "unwillingly entering [leaving]". (again, unwilling interplanar travel)
the spell doesn't address that.

your shoving point is good. i will think on that.

[JackPhoenix]

3:00:00 pm, start casting Conjure Elemental.
3:01:00 pm, done casting Conjure Elemental, start casting Planar Binding
4:01:00 pm, done casting Planar Binding, Conjure Elemental ends. Elemental does not disappear because it is now bound by Planar Binding.

Except it's actually:
Round 1: start casting Conjure Elemental
Round 10: done casting Conjure Elemental, elemental appears, rolls initiative and takes his first turn, you can't cast another spell, you've already used your action
Round 11: start casting Planar Binding
Round 609: elemental takes his 600th turn, the hour is up, Conjure Elemental ends, elemental disappears.
Round 610: done casting Planar Binding, no target present

Even if you ignore initiative order, there's a miniscule delay between finishing one spell and starting another, and that delay, however small, is enough to screw you over.

Also, while Magic Circle is hard for an elemental to beat, it's got 600 tries. It will roll 20 eventually. Your DC must be at least 18 to keep Earth Elemental inside, more for other elements, as those have better Cha. You won't get that without items until level 17, at which point you can use Wish to replicate Planar Binding in one action without breaking concentration anyway.


the part you quoted was about "willingly entering [leaving]" we agreed on that part. well, we agree on it prevents willingly doing interplanar travel

we disagreed on "unwillingly entering [leaving]". (again, unwilling interplanar travel)
the spell doesn't address that.

There would be no need to specify "willingly", if the circle should stop all forms of travel. You can still Banish the demon you've caught in a Magic Circle.

[MaxWilson]

Except it's actually:
Round 1: start casting Conjure Elemental
Round 10: done casting Conjure Elemental, elemental appears, rolls initiative and takes his first turn, you can't cast another spell, you've already used your action
Round 11: start casting Planar Binding
Round 609: elemental takes his 600th turn, the hour is up, Conjure Elemental ends, elemental disappears.

Nope, you're miscounting. 609 - 10 is only 599, so it hasn't been an hour yet since the spell was cast. It sticks around until round 610.

Not that rounds are as good as minutes for counting time outside of combat anyway--it adds extra confusion without changing the result.



Also, while Magic Circle is hard for an elemental to beat, it's got 600 tries. It will roll 20 eventually.

It can't teleport, so it gets zero tries. There is no save for regular movement--it simply fails.

[JackPhoenix]

Nope, you're miscounting. 609 - 10 is only 599, so it hasn't been an hour yet since the spell was cast. It sticks around until round 610.

The elemental's first turn is in the round it is summoned in. That's 10th round. It's 600th turn, which marks when the hour is up, comes before the caster finishes binding it no matter what.


Not that rounds are as good as minutes for counting time outside of combat anyway--it adds extra confusion without changing the result.

Not really: it illustrates the point that the caster can't start casting Planar Binding in the same instant he finishes Conjure Elemental. There's a delay, and that delay is sufficient for the elemental to disappear.

[Zalabim]

The elemental's first turn is in the round it is summoned in. That's 10th round. It's 600th turn, which marks when the hour is up, comes before the caster finishes binding it no matter what.
Not necessarily. If the caster's initiative is low or the elemental's initiative is just higher, then the elemental's first turn would technically be after initiative counts down and goes to the next round, assuming you're counting rounds and not just taking turns in order at this point.

[Unoriginal]

Do note that since the Magic Circle's effects are the same if you use it to protect yourself or to trap an entity, the entity can still attack you and the like. They just have disadvantage. And nothing protects you against non-attacks damaging effects.

So be sure to know what the being you're summoning is capable of.

[MaxWilson]

The elemental's first turn is in the round it is summoned in. That's 10th round. It's 600th turn, which marks when the hour is up, comes before the caster finishes binding it no matter what.

The elemental didn't cast Conjure Elemental. Its turns are irrelevant to measuring the duration of Conjure Elemental.

It won't get a 601st turn, because it disappears 600 turns after it was summoned, and it didn't act instantaneously upon being summoned. It will disappear during the caster's 610th turn, unless he just finished casting Planar Binding.

[JackPhoenix]

Not necessarily. If the caster's initiative is low or the elemental's initiative is just higher, then the elemental's first turn would technically be after initiative counts down and goes to the next round, assuming you're counting rounds and not just taking turns in order at this point.

In that case, while it doesn't take its first turn on the same turn it was summoned, it'll still take the 600th before the caster can finish casting. Last in the 10th turn or first in the 11th, it'll still take its action before the caster starts working on Planar Binding. Same thing later: it'll either take its last action in the 609th turn, after the caster, if its initiative is lower, or it'll take its last action in the 610th turn, in either case before the caster gets his last action he'll need to finish binding it.

[Unoriginal]

Guys, you're most likely not going to do a Planar Binding during *one continuing* combat. Initiative and rounds and turns don't matter.

If you're attacked while you're doing the Planar Binding, it doesn't matter when the spell started either.

[JackPhoenix]

Guys, you're most likely not going to do a Planar Binding during *one continuing* combat. Initiative and rounds and turns don't matter.

If you're attacked while you're doing the Planar Binding, it doesn't matter when the spell started either.

Of course not, but using initiative helps illustrate the point that as the conjuration was cast before the caster started casting binding, it'll also end before the caster finish casting binding.

[Asmotherion]

Planar Binding Happens during Narative, not during Rounds.

All in all, if the DM wants it to work without complications, it will work (usually won't, at least something will happen that might go wrong, and you'll have to RP through it, as it should in spells like this).

Planar Binding is not a Direct Combat Spell; It's an RP Spell like Magnificent Mansion. Some RP is bound to Happen when you successfully cast it, for better or for worse, and depending on the outcome of that RP, you get rewarded, punished or neither.

Rules Lawyering how the spell works is also as silly as it gets. The spells are obviously meant to work together, even if the party has no seccond caster (many don't). If the DM wants to houserule something diferent in a party with more than one caster, to enforce co-operation between them, that's cool, but keep in mind the party with the lone caster who wants to Planar Bind something, uses up the expensive materials for Planar Binding, only to get the d1ck move from the DM "your summon expired, and your expensive materials are used up... better luck next time".