New Game and Looking at Houserules

[AnimeTheCat]

So, I'm considering trying to start a new game but different from what I normally do I'm considering throwing in a whole mess of houserules and wanted to get some input from those that houserule regularly, or those who have tried to houserule, but it didn't work out so well. For the purposes of the game, and essentially to keep it relatively simple, I'm limiting the majority of the resources to what is available on the SRD, Completes, Races of the Dragon, Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, and... I think that's it for sources at this moment. I'm sure I'll add more, but I'm most comfortable with those and I think they offer enough choices for the players.

Class Changes:
Ah Paladin. I want you to be so good in vanilla, but you're so limited. So I'll change you to be better.
Changes:
1) Alignment must match deity. Also, no set code of ethics. Act in a way that reflects your Deity (as discussed between the player and DM). This effects a number of things, but the things it effects are easy enough to addres:

Smite: Smite will now, in addition to other changes discussed later, no longer be smite evil, but the similar ability of the Soulborn Smite Opposition. A LG Paladin can smite Chotic as well as it can smite evil.
Detect [Alignment]: just like Detect Alignment from the soulborn, a paladin can now detect any alignment opposite to his/her own.
Spells: Just like a Good cleric of a Good deity can't cast Evil spells, the same applies to the paladin. Spells with opposite descriptors to the Paladin's deitie's alignment can't be cast by Paladins.
I think that's all for alignment
2) Smite: Smite is now a per encounter attempt, similar to maneuvers, but follows the same rules of smiting otherwise. If you smite something you can't smite, you waste your smite.
3) Spellcasting: I dislike classes that get spellcasting halfway through their life, so Paladins are now more like a blend between bard and Spirit Shaman. They cast solely based on charisma. Spells are prepared form the Cleric spell list, with the addition of any paladin spells as well, spell levels remain the same. If a spell exists on both lists, it is cast as the lowest level of that spell. For instance, Resistance is a level 1 Paladin spell and a level 0 Cleric spell, for this houseruled Paladin it is a level 0 spell. For spells fetched and spells per day, they follow the exact same tables as the Bard, but they acquire their spells in the same way that a Spirit Shaman prepares and casts their spells. For instance, a level 5 Paladin would be able to fetch (or channel) 6 0th level spells, 4 1st level spells, and 3 2nd level spells and they can cast those spells 3, 3, and 1 time per day, before charisma modifiers grant bonus spells. I may tweak this and build my own table, but this sets the tone for what I'm trying to accomplish, that is a versatile 0-6 battle caster.
4) Turn Undead: Paladin's get it at level 1 now. No level penalty... that was a lame rule anyway.
I like the sorcerer too, but it's the most empty dead class in core. I wanna spice that up.
1)Bonus Feats:
- At first level a Sorcerer gains the heritage feat of their choosing for free. It has to be a heritage feat, but that's ok because those feats are pretty cool.
- At second level, and every three levels after that (5, 8, etc.) they get another heritage feat OR a metamagic feat of their choosing.
2) New Class Feature: Ad Lib Metamagic
- At first level a sorcerer may choose one of two ways to ad lib a metamagic effect on to their spells without increasing the casting time. This works in one of two ways:
-- A sorcerer may opt to use 2 spell slots of the increased spell level to cast a metamagic spell. For example if, for some reason, a sorcerer casts a level 0 spell hightened to level 1, they could pay 2 level 1 slots to cast it at the normal casting time.
-- A sorcerer may opt to add +1 to the metamagic spell increase to cast the spell at the normal casting time. For example, if a Sorcerer wants to cast an empowered spell as a standard action, the new spell level modifier is +3 instead of +2.
- A sorcerer can do this a number of times each day equal to his/her Charisma Modifer.
3) Add any skill that has Charisma as an associated ability score to the list of skills known (including UMD) and increase the skill points to 4+int mod per level (x4 at first).

Fighter... you are the weakest link, goodbye. But here's what I'm doing with your insane number of feats and stuff:
1) BAB=Effective Fighter Level for qualifying for feats. That means that any character with BAB 4 can qualify for Weapon Specialization.
2) Feat Progression: Warblade and Crusader get bonus feats as a fighter while Swordsage gets them like a Phychic Warrior.


For now, as of 9/28, that's it. I think those target some of the less priviliged classes pretty well. Still working on how I want to tweak Barbarian and Ranger, but I'm also floating a Monk Ki Power thread around (Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570033-Homebrew-WIP-Monk-Ki-Powers) and Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?569994-WIP-Monk-Ki-Powers)) that is a homebrew system.

Input would be nice, not trying to diminish any class (except the poor fighter), only trying to make them better (hence adding not removing, again excpet for Fighter).

Future things to come will likely be changes to skill uses that can help skill be useful past level 5, but that's work for another day.

[OgresAreCute]

It was my impression that Swordsage is generally weaker than Crusader and Warblade, so it seems odd to give them less feats than the other two. Warblade already gets fighter bonus feats anyway

[Manyasone]

Warblade already gets fighter bonus feats anyway

No he doesn't. And a sword sage has pretty high power potential. So maybe psywarrior bonus feat progression isn't too bad

[16bearswutIdo]

My question is, if warblade and crusader get fighter bonus feats why would I play any melee other than warblade and crusader? They're already two of the strongest melee classes, so now they just completely overshadow every other class.

What's the point of the Pally buffs if Crusader gets that strong?

[OgresAreCute]

No he doesn't. And a sword sage has pretty high power potential. So maybe psywarrior bonus feat progression isn't too bad

Higher than a crusader or warblade? So much higher as to give them less good stuff?

You're right about the warblade feats, I kinda assumed they got fighter bonus feats since they have an effective fighter level from weapon aptitude, but they actually have a significantly smaller list. Still, they get some of the same feats and I think full fighter bonus progression is a bit overkill, especially since the warblade is very solid to begin with. I'd rather slap those fighter feats on barbarian and ranger, I think they could use the help more.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

2) New Class Feature: Ad Lib Metamagic
- At first level a sorcerer may choose one of two ways to ad lib a metamagic effect on to their spells without increasing the casting time. This works in one of two ways:
-- A sorcerer may opt to use 2 spell slots of the increased spell level to cast a metamagic spell. For example if, for some reason, a sorcerer casts a level 0 spell hightened to level 1, they could pay 2 level 1 slots to cast it at the normal casting time.
-- A sorcerer may opt to add +1 to the metamagic spell increase to cast the spell at the normal casting time. For example, if a Sorcerer wants to cast an empowered spell as a standard action, the new spell level modifier is +3 instead of +2.
- A sorcerer can do this a number of times each day equal to his/her Charisma Modifer.

There's really no reason to have this as a special sorcerer feature instead of just removing the rule that spontaneous metamagic increases the casting time. The devs were overly cautious about everything related to new-to-D&D spontaneous casting initially and erred on the side of making them too weak rather than too strong (hence the early-2000s "Skip Hates Sorcerers" meme), but it's turned out to not be an issue at all.

And as far as the specific rules for this feature go, most metamagic feats are over-costed and really need metamagic reduction (a little bit, not Incantatrix-level "cast everything at +0 adjustment" levels) to be broadly useful. Also, it's almost never worth it to spend an entire second spell slot of the adjusted for a metamagic effect, much less to do so for such a minor benefit; casting two e.g. 3rd spells in the same action might be worth 1 7th-level slot in some cases and would obviously be worth more than 2 3rd-level slots, but it's definitely not worth 2 7th-level slots.

If you want the sorcerer to be good at metamagic to express its innate magical power, it needs to get something that the wizard and warmage don't get, both of whom get several bonus metamagic feats like your adjusted sorcerer but also have a lot more spells known to work with and so can make better use of those feats. Some metamagic reduction wouldn't be a bad idea, perhaps a -1 net adjustment to metamagic on all spells at certain levels. If you like the multiple-slots-per-spell idea, you could give it the Ultimate Magus' Augmented Casting class feature (so an empowered fireball costs 1 2nd- and 1 3rd-level slot instead of 1 5th), enabling the sorcerer to get some use out of metamagic with his higher-level spells without making them essentially free to use.

[AnimeTheCat]

It was my impression that Swordsage is generally weaker than Crusader and Warblade, so it seems odd to give them less feats than the other two. Warblade already gets fighter bonus feats anyway


No he doesn't. And a sword sage has pretty high power potential. So maybe psywarrior bonus feat progression isn't too bad


Higher than a crusader or warblade? So much higher as to give them less good stuff?

You're right about the warblade feats, I kinda assumed they got fighter bonus feats since they have an effective fighter level from weapon aptitude, but they actually have a significantly smaller list. Still, they get some of the same feats and I think full fighter bonus progression is a bit overkill, especially since the warblade is very solid to begin with. I'd rather slap those fighter feats on barbarian and ranger, I think they could use the help more.

With the Barbarian and the Ranger, I'm going to work to give them their own unique identity instead of just slapping some feats on them and estimating that it's good enough. For Barbarians, I'm invisioning something like Rage powers, but different. May some way to acutally effectively pull Aggression (sorry Knight class... you're just not that good at it). Give them bonuses depending on the number of creatures they threaten at any given time/any given round. Make them stronger progressively as they get hit or something. I don't know. There are a lot of things that can be done to enhance or bolster the existing framework and give it it's own unique identity when compared to the initiators.

As for power between the initiators, I haven't experienced any major power gaps at all, and swordsages get a ton of maneuvers. I gave them Psychic Warrior progression, but maybe I should flip it and give Swordsages the Fighter progression and Crusader and Warblade the Psychic Warrior Progression? Something to think about I suppose. I'll look in to it and think on it.


My question is, if warblade and crusader get fighter bonus feats why would I play any melee other than warblade and crusader? They're already two of the strongest melee classes, so now they just completely overshadow every other class.

What's the point of the Pally buffs if Crusader gets that strong?

Your question stood out to me most so I'll explain my reasoning. As good as maneuvers are, they're not spells, and that really shows at higher level. Even with only 6th level spells at the end of their career, those spells are more potent than any of the maneuvers that the Crusader has, and those few very potent maneuvers can be picked up as feats where spell can't be acquired in the same manner. What's more, it's not like those feats are any feat for free, they still have to come from the list of fighter bonus feats which means that the list is not all inclusive to great things.

Comparing to Ranger or Barbarian, yeah.... those two will need some work I know. Part of the point is to find a good standard to hold melee-type classes to and see what works in play to get them there. Mybe I'll do something similar to Ranger as what I've done to the Paladin.


There's really no reason to have this as a special sorcerer feature instead of just removing the rule that spontaneous metamagic increases the casting time. The devs were overly cautious about everything related to new-to-D&D spontaneous casting initially and erred on the side of making them too weak rather than too strong (hence the early-2000s "Skip Hates Sorcerers" meme), but it's turned out to not be an issue at all.

And as far as the specific rules for this feature go, most metamagic feats are over-costed and really need metamagic reduction (a little bit, not Incantatrix-level "cast everything at +0 adjustment" levels) to be broadly useful. Also, it's almost never worth it to spend an entire second spell slot of the adjusted for a metamagic effect, much less to do so for such a minor benefit; casting two e.g. 3rd spells in the same action might be worth 1 7th-level slot in some cases and would obviously be worth more than 2 3rd-level slots, but it's definitely not worth 2 7th-level slots.

If you want the sorcerer to be good at metamagic to express its innate magical power, it needs to get something that the wizard and warmage don't get, both of whom get several bonus metamagic feats like your adjusted sorcerer but also have a lot more spells known to work with and so can make better use of those feats. Some metamagic reduction wouldn't be a bad idea, perhaps a -1 net adjustment to metamagic on all spells at certain levels. If you like the multiple-slots-per-spell idea, you could give it the Ultimate Magus' Augmented Casting class feature (so an empowered fireball costs 1 2nd- and 1 3rd-level slot instead of 1 5th), enabling the sorcerer to get some use out of metamagic with his higher-level spells without making them essentially free to use.

Hmm... Maybe something akin to a magical inspiration pool that grows with character level and they can recreate a wizard or sorcerer spell a limited number of times per day. Like, at level 2 you have 1 point gaining 1 point every 2 levels (total of 10 points at 20) that you can use to recreate the effect. Any spell, and the spell costs a number of points equal to the spell level. normal XP and material component, etc rules apply, How does that sound for a neat little tack on to express innate magical ability to you?

As for the metamagic bit, you're probably right. I'm going to leave it as-is for now until I can think on it some more and maybe change it to let them act like they have a metamagic feat a number of times per day (even if they don't have the feat). That fits the "ad lib" idea more anyway. Kind of faking it till they make it. Possibly throw in some innate metamagic reduction too... hmmm, you've given me a lot to think about and consider with the direction I was going and I think I like it.

[Telonius]

If you're trying to make Sorcerers the Metamagic specialists (and I fully approve of this being a thing), I'd switch the rules around. Prepared metamagic takes more time to cast, spontaneous takes the same amount of time the regular casting would (unless otherwise stated, like Quicken). Wizards' bonus feats are Item Crafting or Spell Mastery only; Sorcerers get bonus feats at the same level Wizards do, but the feats must be metamagic or heritage.

[AnimeTheCat]

If you're trying to make Sorcerers the Metamagic specialists (and I fully approve of this being a thing), I'd switch the rules around. Prepared metamagic takes more time to cast, spontaneous takes the same amount of time the regular casting would (unless otherwise stated, like Quicken). Wizards' bonus feats are Item Crafting or Spell Mastery only; Sorcerers get bonus feats at the same level Wizards do, but the feats must be metamagic or heritage.

I would rather not make something worse for another class, so I don't think I'll roll with making prepared metamagic more difficult, but I may make spontaneous metamagic just innately better. Maybe spontanous Metamagic is done at 1 spell level lower than the listed value, and that's just static across the board for spontanous casters of all kinds (which would include the new paladin, warmages, beguilers, bards, etc.). Trying to bring everyone up without bringing anyone else down (except those that should just be migrated into other classes because they're simple blank, empty shells anyway.

hmm...I'm really getting a good vibe from the adjusted idea for "Ad Lib Metamagic" being the ability to use a metamagic feat you don't know a few times per day, but maybe expand that to reducing the cost further a certain number of times per day at around level 10 (you can pick which one you want). I want sorcerers to have the opportuity to pick up lots of those heritage feats (they're basically class features anyway, why make them pay character level feats am I right?). So I want them to have more feats than a wizard.

Great feedback though, I'm enjoying this more than I expected.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Hmm... Maybe something akin to a magical inspiration pool that grows with character level and they can recreate a wizard or sorcerer spell a limited number of times per day. Like, at level 2 you have 1 point gaining 1 point every 2 levels (total of 10 points at 20) that you can use to recreate the effect. Any spell, and the spell costs a number of points equal to the spell level. normal XP and material component, etc rules apply, How does that sound for a neat little tack on to express innate magical ability to you?

I like it thematically, but mechanically, being able to pull any spell out of thin air to solve a problem would make them too versatile. The main benefit of prepared casters with big lists is being able to pull out random and niche solutions to things, but that takes up resources and requires planning; effectively adding a 1/day or 2/day Solve This One Particular Problem (Sp) class feature doesn't require planning or resources at all.

What would work, though, is restricting that ability to spells related to their heritage. For instance, one with Fey heritage might be able to pull out any Enchantment, Illusion (Glamer), or animal- or plant-related spell with the ability, one with Fiendish heritage might be able to pull out any Conjuration (Summoning), [Evil], [Fire], or curse- or poison-related spell, one with Draconic heritage might be able to pull out any Evocation [<breath weapon energy type>], (Polymorph), [Fear], or natural armor-related spell, and so forth.

That basically lets the sorcerer be super-thematic without forcing them to actually take a bunch of thematic spells that would be really really cool when used but only rarely usable. I know when I make a themed caster like e.g. a pyromancer, I really want to pick up lots of niche fire spells like channeled pyroburst and fire spiders or the obscure ones like darkfire and phoenix fire to show off and be noticeably distinct from generalist casters who just happen to have some fire spells, but that requires theurging, spending tons of money on expanding a spellbook, and so on to cover all the bases. If the sorcerer had a "You can cast any fire spell in the entire game 2-3/day, yes even that one" class feature, it'd definitely be my first pick for any thematically-focused caster.


As for the metamagic bit, you're probably right. I'm going to leave it as-is for now until I can think on it some more and maybe change it to let them act like they have a metamagic feat a number of times per day (even if they don't have the feat). That fits the "ad lib" idea more anyway. Kind of faking it till they make it. Possibly throw in some innate metamagic reduction too... hmmm, you've given me a lot to think about and consider with the direction I was going and I think I like it.


hmm...I'm really getting a good vibe from the adjusted idea for "Ad Lib Metamagic" being the ability to use a metamagic feat you don't know a few times per day, but maybe expand that to reducing the cost further a certain number of times per day at around level 10 (you can pick which one you want). I want sorcerers to have the opportuity to pick up lots of those heritage feats (they're basically class features anyway, why make them pay character level feats am I right?). So I want them to have more feats than a wizard.

Great feedback though, I'm enjoying this more than I expected.

That's also a good idea. As with spells, there's a bunch of fun metamagic out there that's normally too niche or obscure to be taken, like Relicguard Spell, Guided Spell, or Deafening Spell. If a sorcerer can pull out a situational feat in the right situation, that gets across the "I'm made of magic" fluff very well.


I would rather not make something worse for another class, so I don't think I'll roll with making prepared metamagic more difficult, but I may make spontaneous metamagic just innately better. Maybe spontanous Metamagic is done at 1 spell level lower than the listed value, and that's just static across the board for spontanous casters of all kinds (which would include the new paladin, warmages, beguilers, bards, etc.). Trying to bring everyone up without bringing anyone else down (except those that should just be migrated into other classes because they're simple blank, empty shells anyway.

I definitely like this idea, since (A) that's relatively unique, as most reductions have a minimum of +1 so you can't reduce the +1 feats and (B) being able to make Silent Spell and Still Spell effectively free so spontaneous casters just will spells into existence without words or gestures once again nicely conveys the one-with-magic theme.

[Cosi]

If you want a quick fix for Swordsage (which I think is probably warranted), I'd just bump them up to full BAB and give the Adaptive Style at 1st, with the ruling that it does refresh maneuvers. That's a reasonable buff that brings them in line with the other classes.

I would also consider replacing your Fighter changes with allowing ToB martials to gestalt with non-ToB martials. That's not necessarily the optimal solution in terms of the distinctiveness concerns you mention, but it's simple and effective, both of which are valuable in houserules.

One thing I'm not completely clear on is the intended power level. If you're buffing the Sorcerer it's presumably fairly high, but if that's the case your buffs to other classes are likely insufficient.

[OgresAreCute]

If you want a quick fix for Swordsage (which I think is probably warranted), I'd just bump them up to full BAB and give the Adaptive Style at 1st, with the ruling that it does refresh maneuvers. That's a reasonable buff that brings them in line with the other classes.

I would also consider replacing your Fighter changes with allowing ToB martials to gestalt with non-ToB martials. That's not necessarily the optimal solution in terms of the distinctiveness concerns you mention, but it's simple and effective, both of which are valuable in houserules.

One thing I'm not completely clear on is the intended power level. If you're buffing the Sorcerer it's presumably fairly high, but if that's the case your buffs to other classes are likely insufficient.

When I was writing out some houserules of my own I also buffed the sorcerer (I even gave a minimal buff to clerics). I can only speak for myself, but in my case it was because sorcerers aren't really competitive with wizards, even if you don't consider all the things they're missing that a wizard gets for free, so I gave them some of those things (bonus feats, more skills). Sorcerer looks good compared to Ranger, but it looks pretty bad compared to Wizard, and a sorcerer should be playing with a Wizard, not a Ranger.

[GrayDeath]

I like where the Sorcerer direction is going.

For the Paladin Changes, if you want a look at a go of High Power Paladin out of the Box, take a look at my Paladin Variant in the Homebrew Section. While it kept the LG (or NG in rafre cases) Alignment and "Good Guy with Code" Direction, as I felt it really central to what it means to be a PALADIN as opposed to a Crusader, it gets quite some muscle (and has been playtested and revised), which makes it much more powerful yet only a bit more versatile.


Also, I agree with the Sword Sage being potentially more powerful than the other 2 (outside of stupid RAW TO^^), and dont think he needs a buff, but if you HAVE to buff him, full BAB should suffice and does not encroach into the other 2 ToB CLasses Shtick.

[AnimeTheCat]

If you want a quick fix for Swordsage (which I think is probably warranted), I'd just bump them up to full BAB and give the Adaptive Style at 1st, with the ruling that it does refresh maneuvers. That's a reasonable buff that brings them in line with the other classes.

I would also consider replacing your Fighter changes with allowing ToB martials to gestalt with non-ToB martials. That's not necessarily the optimal solution in terms of the distinctiveness concerns you mention, but it's simple and effective, both of which are valuable in houserules.

One thing I'm not completely clear on is the intended power level. If you're buffing the Sorcerer it's presumably fairly high, but if that's the case your buffs to other classes are likely insufficient.

On mobile at the moment, but I will answer everyone else later. Cosi brought up a good point of not showing a good desired power level and the answer is, higher than the average is right now? That's the thing, I'm trying to increase both the floor and ceiling of all the classes, some just need more attention than others and I have more ideas for some than others. That's really it. Every class should get a power boost with the house rules and homebrew.

Targeting specific spells is something to come too, just haven't gotten that far in the process yet.

[ericgrau]

I appreciate that you don't normally use a lot of houserules. It's easy to make a mess.

Paladin: Sure, sounds good. Small power boost and nothing that will mess up play.
Sorcerer: They don't have dead levels because they have spells. They're 10 times more interesting than, say, barbarian. And they really don't need help. Here I would go more on the opinions of your players. If they already play sorcs, leave it alone. If they don't, then throw a *small* incentive their way to make the class more spicy to them. Feats are a pretty big incentive, but that said it won't mess up the game. Ad lib metamagic is fine, assuming your players already figured out how to sorcerer quicken.
Fighter: Don't underestimate feats in making a nice build. I think your warblade is going to ruin the appeal that the paladin almost gained. At least hand out fighter feats to the paladin, barbarian, ranger, etc. too. For that matter, everything not martial will suffer too. What about the poor feat starved rogue? May as well hand them out to him too. Possibly the monk but it sounds like you're already giving him a dangerous level of unplaytested houserules. As nice as they may sound in theory to you/anyone) So whatever you get out of that is pure luck.

I think it'll be fine and work well except for giving out all those fighter feats so carelessly. Better give them to almost anyone who isn't a full or 2/3 caster to keep it even. That and the monk looks like a disaster waiting to happen after about the 4th or 5th spoiler tag. No matter how much written feedback you get, extensive homebrew requires extensive testing over a hundred games. Even if you gave the monk something as crazy as "casts as a 2/3 wizard" at least that's related to something that's semi-tested, and is less likely to blow up.

[AnimeTheCat]

I like where the Sorcerer direction is going.

For the Paladin Changes, if you want a look at a go of High Power Paladin out of the Box, take a look at my Paladin Variant in the Homebrew Section. While it kept the LG (or NG in rafre cases) Alignment and "Good Guy with Code" Direction, as I felt it really central to what it means to be a PALADIN as opposed to a Crusader, it gets quite some muscle (and has been playtested and revised), which makes it much more powerful yet only a bit more versatile.

Also, I agree with the Sword Sage being potentially more powerful than the other 2 (outside of stupid RAW TO^^), and dont think he needs a buff, but if you HAVE to buff him, full BAB should suffice and does not encroach into the other 2 ToB CLasses Shtick.

So, in my mind a "Paladin" is a blend of clergy and combat while a Crusader is an individual that fights for a cause. I know it's a small difference in definition, but it makes a big difference to me. Any individual can crusade for any given cause in any given way, but only one who carries the virtue of their deity and fights specifically to further the will of that deity can be a "Paladin". That's not to say that a Crusader can't also fight for a deity, but that I find Paladins to be more clerically trained while Crusaders are less so, personally.

All of that is to lead up to why I don't see paladins as goodie two-shoes, but rather divinely inspired clergy-warriors, and Crusaders as any individual (religiously trained or not) that picks up a cause to fight for.


I like it thematically, but mechanically, being able to pull any spell out of thin air to solve a problem would make them too versatile. The main benefit of prepared casters with big lists is being able to pull out random and niche solutions to things, but that takes up resources and requires planning; effectively adding a 1/day or 2/day Solve This One Particular Problem (Sp) class feature doesn't require planning or resources at all.

What would work, though, is restricting that ability to spells related to their heritage. For instance, one with Fey heritage might be able to pull out any Enchantment, Illusion (Glamer), or animal- or plant-related spell with the ability, one with Fiendish heritage might be able to pull out any Conjuration (Summoning), [Evil], [Fire], or curse- or poison-related spell, one with Draconic heritage might be able to pull out any Evocation [<breath weapon energy type>], (Polymorph), [Fear], or natural armor-related spell, and so forth.

That basically lets the sorcerer be super-thematic without forcing them to actually take a bunch of thematic spells that would be really really cool when used but only rarely usable. I know when I make a themed caster like e.g. a pyromancer, I really want to pick up lots of niche fire spells like channeled pyroburst and fire spiders or the obscure ones like darkfire and phoenix fire to show off and be noticeably distinct from generalist casters who just happen to have some fire spells, but that requires theurging, spending tons of money on expanding a spellbook, and so on to cover all the bases. If the sorcerer had a "You can cast any fire spell in the entire game 2-3/day, yes even that one" class feature, it'd definitely be my first pick for any thematically-focused caster.

I was thinking the bonus heritage feats were for expanding the spells known to be similar to what you're talking about with the heritage related spells. Also, I feel like compiling this list of heritage related spells might take a long time (unless you know of one that already exists), but you're probably right that it would be more balanced. In that way though, I think that the magic pool would be a little bigger than just 10 points at level 20 though. If I'm limiting the use of the feature, I might as well make sure that they can use it somewhat freely.


That's also a good idea. As with spells, there's a bunch of fun metamagic out there that's normally too niche or obscure to be taken, like Relicguard Spell, Guided Spell, or Deafening Spell. If a sorcerer can pull out a situational feat in the right situation, that gets across the "I'm made of magic" fluff very well.

I definitely like this idea, since (A) that's relatively unique, as most reductions have a minimum of +1 so you can't reduce the +1 feats and (B) being able to make Silent Spell and Still Spell effectively free so spontaneous casters just will spells into existence without words or gestures once again nicely conveys the one-with-magic theme.

How many times per day and at what rate do you think would be useful, but not overly useful, for the ad lib metamagic? I think that allowing metamagic to be easier for spontaneous casters is on the money as far as how I want to improve the classes since it will help out Bards and Favored Souls as well.


I appreciate that you don't normally use a lot of houserules. It's easy to make a mess.

Paladin: Sure, sounds good. Small power boost and nothing that will mess up play.
Sorcerer: They don't have dead levels because they have spells. They're 10 times more interesting than, say, barbarian. And they really don't need help. Here I would go more on the opinions of your players. If they already play sorcs, leave it alone. If they don't, then throw a *small* incentive their way to make the class more spicy to them. Feats are a pretty big incentive, but that said it won't mess up the game. Ad lib metamagic is fine, assuming your players already figured out how to sorcerer quicken.
Fighter: Don't underestimate feats in making a nice build. I think your warblade is going to ruin the appeal that the paladin almost gained. At least hand out fighter feats to the paladin, barbarian, ranger, etc. too. For that matter, everything not martial will suffer too. What about the poor feat starved rogue? May as well hand them out to him too. Possibly the monk but it sounds like you're already giving him a dangerous level of unplaytested houserules. As nice as they may sound in theory to you/anyone) So whatever you get out of that is pure luck.

I think it'll be fine and work well except for giving out all those fighter feats so carelessly. Better give them to almost anyone who isn't a full or 2/3 caster to keep it even. That and the monk looks like a disaster waiting to happen after about the 4th or 5th spoiler tag. No matter how much written feedback you get, extensive homebrew requires extensive testing over a hundred games. Even if you gave the monk something as crazy as "casts as a 2/3 wizard" at least that's related to something that's semi-tested, and is less likely to blow up.

The Sorcerer changes are born from both my experiences playing them and from the experiences of those I play with regularly. Sorcerers are really fun to play, but they don't have enough feats to pick up many, if any, heritage feats that are not exactly powerful, but are really interesting. I wanted to make sure that there was a way for players to actually get and use them. As for the Ad Lib metamagic, I'm definitely going to be changing the concept to the one that was brought up later in the thread, just haven't gotten the chance to do so yet.

As for your thoughts about the fighter and fighter bonus feats, I know the ability for a feat to radically change a build. I also know that feats alone are not a way to make a build. I've tried building fighters to compete at higher levels and the unfortunate reality is that feats aren't a replacement for actual class abilities and that you can't teleport or fly with a feat. Fighters, and similarly every other martial character, are so heavily reliant on magic items that it really kills the concept of a non-magical character or one that's succeeding or persevering through martial prowess. ToB helps with correcting that with most of the maneuvers. If I had it my way, I would build a maneuver/stance system from scratch that could be uniquely catered to the Barbarian, Rogue, and Fighter. As it stands now though, I don't have that kind of time.

Lastly, for the Monk idea that I presented, instead of just saying "looks like a disaster waiting to happen", why not give some actual feedback? I know it's not perfectly well designed, it was done in a limited amount of time, but it is definitely better than what is present for monks right now which is a big fat whopping nothing. Also, how do you play test something without playing it in the first place? I know things need playtesting and that's part of what this thread is about is refining the ideas I have to a point where they should theoretically be more balance in play, and then find out how well they are balance through play and tweak as necessary.

[ericgrau]

The Sorcerer changes are born from both my experiences playing them and from the experiences of those I play with regularly. Sorcerers are really fun to play, but they don't have enough feats to pick up many, if any, heritage feats that are not exactly powerful, but are really interesting. I wanted to make sure that there was a way for players to actually get and use them. As for the Ad Lib metamagic, I'm definitely going to be changing the concept to the one that was brought up later in the thread, just haven't gotten the chance to do so yet.

As for your thoughts about the fighter and fighter bonus feats, I know the ability for a feat to radically change a build. I also know that feats alone are not a way to make a build. I've tried building fighters to compete at higher levels and the unfortunate reality is that feats aren't a replacement for actual class abilities and that you can't teleport or fly with a feat. Fighters, and similarly every other martial character, are so heavily reliant on magic items that it really kills the concept of a non-magical character or one that's succeeding or persevering through martial prowess. ToB helps with correcting that with most of the maneuvers. If I had it my way, I would build a maneuver/stance system from scratch that could be uniquely catered to the Barbarian, Rogue, and Fighter. As it stands now though, I don't have that kind of time.

Lastly, for the Monk idea that I presented, instead of just saying "looks like a disaster waiting to happen", why not give some actual feedback? I know it's not perfectly well designed, it was done in a limited amount of time, but it is definitely better than what is present for monks right now which is a big fat whopping nothing. Also, how do you play test something without playing it in the first place? I know things need playtesting and that's part of what this thread is about is refining the ideas I have to a point where they should theoretically be more balance in play, and then find out how well they are balance through play and tweak as necessary.

The sorcerer is likely to work out well then, as-written. Yeah I wasn't saying to keep fighter, I was saying to make sure everyone who isn't a major caster gets fighter bonus feats if anybody does. All ToB, paladins, barbarians, rogues, scouts, etc., etc.

I can't provide feedback for the monk because it doesn't just need playtesting, it needs dozens of people (each in a different gaming group) to playtest it each over several campaigns. If you gather the people I can provide suggestions to at least give it a better starting point. You can always drop the monk class altogether if you don't like the original class (or something close to it).

[AnimeTheCat]

The sorcerer is likely to work out well then, as-written. Yeah I wasn't saying to keep fighter, I was saying to make sure everyone who isn't a major caster gets fighter bonus feats if anybody does. All ToB, paladins, barbarians, rogues, scouts, etc., etc.

I can't provide feedback for the monk because it doesn't just need playtesting, it needs dozens of people (each in a different gaming group) to playtest it each over several campaigns. If you gather the people I can provide suggestions to at least give it a better starting point. You can always drop the monk class altogether if you don't like the original class (or something close to it).

I mean... you can provide speculative feedback on what you feel looks or seems like it would be a train wreck. Is it the idea as a whole? Is it the wording of the abilities? What makes you feel like it's a train wreck by the time you get to the fourth spoiler tab? You said it so you must feel that way for a reason, and I would like to know that reason so that maybe I can adjust it before it even gets to people to play test it.

[Pleh]

What would work, though, is restricting that ability to spells related to their heritage. For instance, one with Fey heritage might be able to pull out any Enchantment, Illusion (Glamer), or animal- or plant-related spell with the ability, one with Fiendish heritage might be able to pull out any Conjuration (Summoning), [Evil], [Fire], or curse- or poison-related spell, one with Draconic heritage might be able to pull out any Evocation [<breath weapon energy type>], (Polymorph), [Fear], or natural armor-related spell, and so forth.

That basically lets the sorcerer be super-thematic without forcing them to actually take a bunch of thematic spells that would be really really cool when used but only rarely usable.

You mean give the Sorcerer some Heritage Domains? Because this sounds a heck of a lot like cleric domains.

I do like the idea that wizards get earlier access to higher level spells, but sorcerers expend lower metamagic costs. Wizards have books with lots of flexibility in spells, but sorcerers nova slightly harder.

[AnimeTheCat]

You mean give the Sorcerer some Heritage Domains? Because this sounds a heck of a lot like cleric domains.

I do like the idea that wizards get earlier access to higher level spells, but sorcerers expend lower metamagic costs. Wizards have books with lots of flexibility in spells, but sorcerers nova slightly harder.

actually, an idea I had before this but decided against was to switch casting progression between sorcerers and wizards, then adjusting the spells known of the sorcerer, effectively giving them the faster casting progression and slowing the wizards. It made sense to me that the innately magical class would grow in power faster, but more limited while the studious class would learn slower, but cover a much broader range of spellcraft. Then I decided buffing Sorcerers would be better than something like that.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I was thinking the bonus heritage feats were for expanding the spells known to be similar to what you're talking about with the heritage related spells. Also, I feel like compiling this list of heritage related spells might take a long time (unless you know of one that already exists), but you're probably right that it would be more balanced.

The idea is that you don't need a specific list, you just limit it by collections of subschools/descriptors/themes, in the same way the Spontaneous Divination is "spontaneously cast Divination spells" and Initiate of Amaunator is "spontaneously cast [Fire] spells" and you can cast any spell that qualifies. Unless your concern is finding a handy reference for players to look through, in which case there are relatively comprehensive lists floating around the internet at D&D Tools, IMarvinTPA's Database, and similar sites.


In that way though, I think that the magic pool would be a little bigger than just 10 points at level 20 though. If I'm limiting the use of the feature, I might as well make sure that they can use it somewhat freely.

After thinking about it further, instead of having a pool of [level/2] points where you spend N points to cast a spell of level N, I'd suggest having a pool of [level/3] points or thereabouts where you spend 1 point and an Nth-level spell slot to cast an Nth-level spell. It gives up a handful of extra dedicated slots in exchange for more total spontaneous spells.

For comparison, things like Spontaneous Divination, Uncanny Forethought, Domain Spontaneity on a Sovereign Speaker, etc. let you spontaneously cast from a wide range of spells you already know, and are usable 40+ times per day (Spontaneous Divination, can be used with any slot), 13+ times per day (3+Int with 30 Int) with slots left open, or 9 times per day (9 domain slots) with slots left open. Those are considered to be pretty darn strong, so you don't want to give anywhere near that many uses--particularly since this feature lets you cast spells that you explicitly don't have to already know, freeing up spells known for other things--but 6 spells at level 20 seems like a good amount.

[ericgrau]

I mean... you can provide speculative feedback on what you feel looks or seems like it would be a train wreck. Is it the idea as a whole? Is it the wording of the abilities? What makes you feel like it's a train wreck by the time you get to the fourth spoiler tab? You said it so you must feel that way for a reason, and I would like to know that reason so that maybe I can adjust it before it even gets to people to play test it.
It's too many changes for me to be capable of analyzing. It's simply the quantity of changes with no related existing material to compare to even use as a baseline. I could speculate at best, yes. But I tend to stay away from extensive homebrew because it tends to end up in lots of speculation. Are there at least spells or psionic powers the ki abilities are based on, to provide some kind of baseline to compare them to? If there are common psionic powers they're pulled from please excuse me for not knowing psionics as well as spells. Baseline powers/spells would help a lot, but it's still a ton of work to analyze and would still require a bit of testing afterwards. So that kind of info could help someone else with more free time to look at it, I should say.

[AnimeTheCat]

It's too many changes for me to be capable of analyzing. It's simply the quantity of changes with no related existing material to compare to even use as a baseline. I could speculate at best, yes. But I tend to stay away from extensive homebrew because it tends to end up in lots of speculation. Are there at least spells or psionic powers the ki abilities are based on, to provide some kind of baseline to compare them to? If there are common psionic powers they're pulled from please excuse me for not knowing psionics as well as spells. Baseline powers/spells would help a lot, but it's still a ton of work to analyze and would still require a bit of testing afterwards. So that kind of info could help someone else with more free time to look at it, I should say.

Nearly every power, if not every power, have an analogue with a spell or psionic power. They are what I based the Ki Powers off of.

Quick Step - Dimension Door
Gentle Fist - Wraithstrike
Ki Power/Agility/Endurance - Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Bear's Endurance
Ki Armor - Mage Armor/Inertial Armor
Light Step - Water Walking/Air Walk
Ki Double - Mirror Image
Ki Shroud - Blur Spell/Invisibility
Dispelling Ki - Dispel Magic (with a twist)
Ki Growth - Enlarge Person/Expansion
Ki Quicken - Haste
Ki Accleerate - Celerety
Ki Enhance - Magic Weapon
Ki Heal - Cure Light Wounds/Mass Cure Light Wounds
Ki Resistance - Resist Energy
Ki Trance - Owl's Wisdom/Nondetection

The only ones I didn't list there were Ki Energize or Invisible Fist because I can't think of the spell they're mirroring. However, Ki Energize can't be taken till level 3 and it's damage is outpaced by Sneak Attack and any damage spell that scales off of caster level (scorching ray, Energey Bolt/Ray/Ball/etc.)

I didn't feel it was necessary to write out which spell the ability was based off of in the text, but I guess I can do that if it was difficult to tell.

[Razade]

Nearly every power, if not every power, have an analogue with a spell or psionic power. They are what I based the Ki Powers off of.

Quick Step - Dimension Door
Gentle Fist - Wraithstrike
Ki Power/Agility/Endurance - Bull's Strength/Cat's Grace/Bear's Endurance
Ki Armor - Mage Armor/Inertial Armor
Light Step - Water Walking/Air Walk
Ki Double - Mirror Image
Ki Shroud - Blur Spell/Invisibility
Dispelling Ki - Dispel Magic (with a twist)
Ki Growth - Enlarge Person/Expansion
Ki Quicken - Haste
Ki Accleerate - Celerety
Ki Enhance - Magic Weapon
Ki Heal - Cure Light Wounds/Mass Cure Light Wounds
Ki Resistance - Resist Energy
Ki Trance - Owl's Wisdom/Nondetection

The only ones I didn't list there were Ki Energize or Invisible Fist because I can't think of the spell they're mirroring. However, Ki Energize can't be taken till level 3 and it's damage is outpaced by Sneak Attack and any damage spell that scales off of caster level (scorching ray, Energey Bolt/Ray/Ball/etc.)

I didn't feel it was necessary to write out which spell the ability was based off of in the text, but I guess I can do that if it was difficult to tell.

Do they need such boring names? The Ki moves? Because they're...really not very creative.

[AnimeTheCat]

Do they need such boring names? The Ki moves? Because they're...really not very creative.

c'mon lol, I did that up in about 1-2 hours. Naming convention was purely for function at the time. Sure I can come up with more creative names, but I just didn't have the time when I was first doing it and I haven't had much time to re-attack it either.

The names are not set in stone, by any means. They're certainly place holders. If you've got ideas on better names, comment in the thread on the homebrew forum so that maybe other people will do the same. I would like at least some feedback but it got like 50 views and not a single post so I figured there was just no interest.

[Pleh]

Invisible fist looks like the Bloodwind spell and Energize looks like DFI bardic courage.

[AnimeTheCat]

Invisible fist looks like the Bloodwind spell and Energize looks like DFI bardic courage.

Ok, cool, so I'm still not reinventing any wheels, just putting them on a different chassis and calling them tires.

[ericgrau]

Nearly every power, if not every power, have an analogue with a spell or psionic power. They are what I based the Ki Powers off of.
Ahh I see now. I didn't notice that originally. That is way better then. Unfortunately I don't have time to look over it all but it may work out with less testing. But like I said hopefully that will help someone else look at it.

I did take a look at the first one in the link and quick step seems both different in function and cost from dimension door. So that's a bit more iffy than a direct transfer. There are short range swift action teleport spells out there and then you can convert spell level into a power point cost. That would be a safer bet since it's a more direct copy. There is power creep in splatbooks and group optimization varies, but at least it would get you in the right ballpark right away with less guesswork. If the other powers are that way then that is something to consider for them too.

[Pleh]

Disclaimer: the following is a rambling of brainstorming ideas. They can be taken individually, wholesale, or a la carte. More thought was given to fun possibilities than strict balance.

For barbarians, it's really helpful to houserule that Intimidation keys off Strength, so they actually get objectively scarier when they rage (without paying feat taxes for it).

If Smite is a Per Encounter ability, might as well give Rage per encounter, too. It fatigues them afterward, anyway.

It also probably wouldn't be too unbalanced to give them Die Hard. If everyone is getting fighter feats and Barbarian is competing with ToB, being "The Terror That Never Dies" is a pretty suitable niche. Initiators get maneuvers, Rangers get magic and beast companions, Monks get Psi Like Ki powers, but Barbarians get Fear effects, Die Hard, and Rage per Encounter.

Rangers can probably get the Paladin Treatment. Spells out the gate, but on bardlike variant of druids, then let them have animal companion at druid level equal ranger level. We can nix Combat Style. Since everyone gets Fighter Feats, that means everyone already has Combat Style (with any fighter feat chain, not just TWF or Archery). In its place, why not beef up Favored Enemy, the truly iconic ranger feature?

Add Favored Terrain on top of Favored Enemy like PF and if they choose Humanoid for Favored Enemy, they get two for one deal like in 5e.

It'd also be cool to steal the Soulknife's Mind Blade and give the Rangers a Favored Weapon (pick any one weapon you're proficient with, no take backsies). You can change the exact benefits of the mind blade clone to have equivalent magic item properties, but more applicable to rangers. If the Favored Weapon only gets its full bonus against Favored Enemies, you're free to amp up its power relative to the Mind Blade. I like the idea that the Favored Weapon progresses as
> +x enhancement bonus vs favored enemies
> Bane vs Favored Enemies
> Bane + Keen vs Favored Enemies

Maybe the Favored Weapon gains an appropriate Elemental damage when the ranger fights in Favored Terrain.