Replacing extra attack with one "super attack"

[Dronedevil]

I had this character concept for a sniper fighter, using a heavy crossbow and all that usual stuff, but every time I thought about it, the image of the power from a single shot of a bolt-action sniper rifle. So I thought that for mostly flavour reasons I'd try to replace Extra Attack, with one single attack, dealing the damage that Extra Attack would.

Say you've got a lvl 20 fighter with 20 DEX and a heavy crossbow. In that case, instead of making four separate attacks for 1d10+5 each, I'd rather make one single attack for 4d10+20.

This would rather make it a one chance, all or nothing shot. The chance of hitting all my damage, or critting on all my damage goes up drastically, compensated by the fact that my chance to miss it all entirely goes up just as much. This I feel fits more for a sniper.

I know it would be OP combined with Champion, but ignore that for now, as I do not intend to go champion in this build.

This 4d10+5 would only apply in cases where Extra Attack would apply. So any bonus action attack or attack of opportunity would still be just the normal damage die and modifier.

Do you see any problems with this alternative to Extra Attack?

[pygmybatrider]

With the Archery fighting style, possibly Sharpshooter, and any reasonably consistent way to generate advantage, it becomes very strong.

But, you’re level 20, and having fun, so if I was your DM and the rest of the players had no problems with it, I’d give you the green light, maybe with some sort of limitation or tweak once we see how it goes.

[Kane0]

Mostly not hitting, but Rogues have that problem so meh.
Not being able to benefit so much from battlemaster dice, hunters mark, etc.

Nothing gamebreaking, give it a go!

[Dronedevil]

With the Archery fighting style, possibly Sharpshooter, and any reasonably consistent way to generate advantage, it becomes very strong.
You might be onto something there. The average of 2d20D1 is equal to 4(2d20D1)÷4, but the first method has a better chance to high roll. This should be offset by the chance to low roll, but it does fish for more crits, so it probably is a tiny bit more damage on average I guess.


But, you’re level 20, and having fun.
The lvl 20 fighter was just an example. I'm just theory crafting, and if I were to use the that homerule, I'd probably use it from lvl 5 and onwards. I haven't started playing this character yet, just keeping it in my back pocket.

[bid]

Compare to BB which does 4d8+5 in melee at level 17. Or any cantrip that does up to 4d12. Your idea does that in range, and applies Dex mod multiple times. I don't think it's that bad.

Moreover, doing 42 damage is overkill on minions. Crit becomes meaningless in those cases.

I wonder if it would be fair to have a feat that combines advantage to your single shot. It may be stronger than SS, in which case reducing to 4d6+20 would be more than enough to fix it.

[Kadesh]

Refluff the Extra Attack mechanic as taking ectra time to size up the opponent and put the attack into a votal area. Video Games might call it something like Lower Draw where you hold onto the Attack Button to charge it up.

Alternatively, play Rogue, Cleric or Warlock with Eldritch Smite as they get Bonus damage to their Ranged Attacks damage (or some combination thereof)

[Tanarii]

It changes the damage curve drastically. Instead of being fairly likely to do roughly 60% of your potential total damage, with only a 2% of no damage and a 13% of doing all your damage, you're either doing no damage 40% of the time or all your damage 60% of the time.

Even at level 5 it changes you from 16% of no damage, 48% chance of 1 hit, and 36% chance of 2 hits damage to a 40/60 split of no damage or 2 hits worth.

[Kane0]

It changes the damage curve drastically. Instead of being fairly likely to do roughly 60% of your potential total damage, with only a 2% of no damage and a 13% of doing all your damage, you're either doing no damage 40% of the time or all your damage 60% of the time.

Even at level 5 it changes you from 16% of no damage, 48% chance of 1 hit, and 36% chance of 2 hits damage to a 40/60 split of no damage or 2 hits worth.

Yeah, like a rogue.

[stoutstien]

Pickup booming blade?

[Kadesh]

Pickup booming blade?

On a Crossbow?

[Contrast]

You're giving up better damage division and less variability for higher crit damage. I don't see anything intrinsically wrong with that given you said you're not going to try and crit fish with champ.

As others have said though, you've yet to explain exactly why rogue doesn't already address what you're looking for.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, like a rogue.
Right.

It's not broken. But it drastically changes the purpose, or what kind of things it's good at and bad at.

If that's the goal, to be more rogue like, or more "all or nothing" and less consistent, then it achieves that goal.

Edit: also, yeah it does raise the question "why not just make a Rogue?" They're a great archetype for snipers for many reasons.

[Aett_Thorn]

I don’t see many problem with this, but just think that it would be easier to do a lot of damage with a single shot with a Rogue or a UA Artificer Gunsmith if that’s what you’re going for.

[thoroughlyS]

Honestly, I would just fluff this as being how my character operates. The multiple attack rolls are really just abstractions for taking variables like airflow, subtle movements of the target, or initial starting positions into account. Each successful roll would really be hitting another vital spot on the pass through (story-wise, most of my hits are critical hits). In turns where I target multiple creatures, I'm forgoing my ridiculously effective aiming for better coverage.

[DivisibleByZero]

Take a fighter and just trade his extra attacks for sneak attack dice. Or trade his extra attacks for scaling weapon damage at the appropriate levels (without* scaling his stat modifier, like you did in your example...).
That only works for fighter, though. Any other class would need more adjustments.


Honestly, I would just fluff this as being how my character operates. The multiple attack rolls are really just abstractions for taking variables like airflow, subtle movements of the target, or initial starting positions into account. Each successful roll would really be hitting another vital spot on the pass through (story-wise, most of my hits are critical hits). In turns where I target multiple creatures, I'm forgoing my ridiculously effective aiming for better coverage.

Or this. No mechanical change needed, just change the fluff.

[stoutstien]

On a Crossbow?
At lv 20 why not?

[Kadesh]

Didn't realise that Crossbows made melee attacks other than as an Improvised Weapon/Club?

[rbstr]

Assuming that your hit rate remains constant 4d10+20 is exactly the same as 4x(1d10+5) in average damage. That includes crits ect. it's all the same, so long as you don't have things like "on your first attack you have advantage" which manipulate hit rate when you do multiple attacks instead of 1 attack.

It does however effect balance of encounters somewhat:
Lets say you have a critter that takes ~4d10+20 to kill and you've got a 50% hit rate. With 4 separate attacks you'll usually kill it in the second round but rarely kill it in the first round. That means it'll get at least a chance to act.
With the one-big-hit you'll kill the thing on the first hit 50% of the time. That'll deny the enemy a chance to act much more often.


With the Archery fighting style, possibly Sharpshooter, and any reasonably consistent way to generate advantage, it becomes very strong.
This isn't any more true with the one-big-hit than it is with regular archery. The averages are the same.

In fact, sharpshooter would be 3x as strong when you make 4 attacks, compared to 1 attack. Presuming you only add the +10 per attack.

[DivisibleByZero]

My point was that it should only be 4d20+5 (not +20) specifically because it is only one attack.
If he wants to make 4 rolls, the he gets his mod to all of them. If he's only rolling once and hitting once, he's only adding his modifier once.

That why I suggested replacing extra attack(s) with either sneak attack dice or with scaling weapon damage, but *not* with scaling modifier damage.

If he wants to keep all the modifiers, then just change the fluff and leave the mechanics alone.

[LudicSavant]

I had this character concept for a sniper fighter, using a heavy crossbow and all that usual stuff, but every time I thought about it, the image of the power from a single shot of a bolt-action sniper rifle. So I thought that for mostly flavour reasons I'd try to replace Extra Attack, with one single attack, dealing the damage that Extra Attack would.

Say you've got a lvl 20 fighter with 20 DEX and a heavy crossbow. In that case, instead of making four separate attacks for 1d10+5 each, I'd rather make one single attack for 4d10+20.

This would rather make it a one chance, all or nothing shot. The chance of hitting all my damage, or critting on all my damage goes up drastically, compensated by the fact that my chance to miss it all entirely goes up just as much. This I feel fits more for a sniper.

I know it would be OP combined with Champion, but ignore that for now, as I do not intend to go champion in this build.

This 4d10+5 would only apply in cases where Extra Attack would apply. So any bonus action attack or attack of opportunity would still be just the normal damage die and modifier.

Do you see any problems with this alternative to Extra Attack?

A Champion's Superior Critical is not the problem here. If anything, a typical Champion attack series with Superior Critical will have a better mathematical distribution without this houserule.

What it's actually crazy good with is anything that boosts a single attack roll, like Portent or any one-off source of Advantage (like a familiar's Help action). These abilities will now have their effects multiplied by a substantial factor. By contrast, effects like the Samurai's Fighting Spirit become less valuable.

[stoutstien]

Instead of changing class mechanics why don't we just make a magical heavy xbow that can make one powerful shot?
Dwarven crossbow of martial prowless.
Heavy xbow damage is magical
As an action you can channel your proficiency with the weapon into one powerful shot.
The damage type becomes force and you add 1d10 for any additional attack you forgo to make this attack.

It's an action so it reduces conflict with features that effect attack action.

[Unoriginal]

I DMed for someone who wanted to playtest an houserule like this, a couple of months ago.

It did not go well.

[Contrast]

I DMed for someone who wanted to playtest an houserule like this, a couple of months ago.

It did not go well.

...it may be helpful for OP if you were to explain in what way it did not go well.

[Whyrocknodie]

...it may be helpful for OP if you were to explain in what way it did not go well.

Ended in cannibalism. A lot of cannibalism.

[Man_Over_Game]

There's a few issues that stand out to me.

First and foremost, the Loading property on the Heavy Crossbow. This is to balance the higher damage compared to the Longbow. You are completely bypassing that negative quality, which is a huge part of the value of the Crossbow Expert feat.

The other thing is, stacking your damage into a single attack isn't very..."fun"? It works for Rogues, because they have a lot of other things they can do (hide, run, use special abilities), but a ranged Fighter can only do that one thing. On top of that, with so much stacked damage, it means that you are overkilling a weaker creature, or a bigger creature can't reduce some of the damage, or a single Shield spell causes you to waste your entire turn.

Look at Great Weapon Fighting vs. Two Weapon Fighting. Great Weapon Fighting is often times considered the better option for raw damage, but you still see more Two Weapon Fighters because it's more fun. People like consistency, because it's something they can make plans around. If you wanted random chance, go play Yahtzee.

Because with this, you're either "the guy that did nothing for his turn" or "the guy who ended the fight with a coin flip".


My suggestion, to get what you're looking for, is adding something to the Sharpshooter feat, that says:


When you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your attacks to Steady Your Aim, causing your next attack with a ranged weapon before the end of your next turn to have Advantage
When you Steady Your Aim while you already have advantage for your attack, your Aimed ranged attack does not suffer Disadvantage due to range.

(while removing the range distance portion of the current Sharpshooter feat but keeping the -5 to hit for +10 damage)

Grab a level into Rogue, get your -5 to hit and +10 to damage, aim a shot (losing an attack) and make the following attack with Advantage, nullifying your -5 to hit (since advantage gives about a +5), but dealing 1d10 + 10 + 1d6 + Mod in damage, and if you aim a second time, you get to do the same thing but at an enhanced range.

This gives you a lot more choices to work with on how you want to divide up your attacks, and doesn't add much that wasn't already there. Mastermind Rogues, for instance, can Help an ally attack a target as long as the ally can see the Mastermind, and the Mastermind is within 30 feet of the target, and do this with a bonus action.

[Millface]

why not just roll 4 attack rolls and damage rolls and just fluff it to say that it was one bolt that did that much damage? Functionally you shouldn't have to change this unless you actually want this to be better than 4 attacks from a mechanical sense.

[Kadesh]

why not just roll 4 attack rolls and damage rolls and just fluff it to say that it was one bolt that did that much damage? Functionally you shouldn't have to change this unless you actually want this to be better than 4 attacks from a mechanical sense.

With a ranged attack in early levels/survival campaigns this has the benefit of only using 1 bolt rather than 4.

[Vogie]

why not just roll 4 attack rolls and damage rolls and just fluff it to say that it was one bolt that did that much damage? Functionally you shouldn't have to change this unless you actually want this to be better than 4 attacks from a mechanical sense.

This is what I would do. Make it something like advantage, but mechanically in the opposite style of the Samurai's rapid strike

If you have "2 attacks", you instead roll twice. If both of those hit, you do a single double-powered attack.

Onward to 3 attacks, rolling thrice, and 4 attacks with rolling 4 times. Or more, with advantage (such as Faerie Fire or equivalent)

Fluffed as the size of the impact - a level 20 firing a shot that is equivalent to 4 impacts at once would require 4 'hit' rolls, while if you only 'hit' with 1 of 4 die would be more like a single powerful shot that just grazed the target.

Yes, it would be slightly smaller by way of number of ammunition used... unless you're making up a sniper rifle-esque weapon with rounds that cost 2/3/4x of a normal bolt or arrow.



Now that I think of it...
You could actually use the opposite of the above to show an spray of bullets, Gatling gun-style attack. You'd roll damage first, divide the damage by the number of attacks, and roll that number of d20s to see which hit shots that hit. 1 attack would be 1 damage bullets, 2 attacks would indicate 2 damage bullets, 3 attacks would indicate 3 damage bullets, et cetera.

You'd use the "When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a spray attack weapon, you can make only one attack regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make" rider similar to how nets work.

So an attack action for a Gatling Gun (based off of a Heavy crossbow) with Extra attack x3 would be rolling 4d10+20 damage first, then rolling that many d20s to see how many of the bullets hit. If that was, say, 40. total damage, you'd roll 10d20, each bullet that hits deals 4 damage.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I'd make it a magic weapon in that circumstance that, similar to a bolt-action rifle, has to be reloaded slowly to prevent using the extra attacks. Just tune the weapon damage to your liking that way.

I think more than anything this risks hurting any build, so I'd be careful implementing it into any build that you don't want to be feast or famine as far as damage output goes.

[Maxilian]

why not just roll 4 attack rolls and damage rolls and just fluff it to say that it was one bolt that did that much damage? Functionally you shouldn't have to change this unless you actually want this to be better than 4 attacks from a mechanical sense.

This is one of the best options.

Going Rogue or Artificer (gunsmith) also works, reflavor them as needed.

Note: You can also make this with a Druid (Using the forms that base themselves on one big attack -beasts with the charger ability-)

[Millface]

With a ranged attack in early levels/survival campaigns this has the benefit of only using 1 bolt rather than 4.

Make the bolts cost 4x more. A .5 Cal bullet costs more than what you put in a pistol, after all.

[Man_Over_Game]

Heh, best scheme ever.


Be Champion fighter with a background of carpenter (that became a mercenary)
Hit level 5
Complain about action economy with crossbows and how I want to snipe things, not machinegun them.
Convince DM to allow singular shots for my attacks that are balanced with expensive ammunition. DM agrees.
Use Carpenter background to make bank off of crafting bolts all day, quit being an adventurer.
Put any future class levels into Rogue Mastermind.

[Millface]

Heh, best scheme ever.

Be Champion fighter with a background of carpenter (that became a mercenary), complain about action economy with crossbows and how I want to snipe things, not machinegun them. Convince DM to allow singular shots for my attacks that are balanced with expensive ammunition. DM agrees. Use Carpenter background to make bank off of crafting bolts all day, quit being an adventurer.

If something is 4x more expensive wouldn't it make sense that it takes roughly 4x as long to make, or 4x as much base cost? You might get a slight price bump from making something exotic or rare or inventive I guess, but then you make bank off of an invention moreso than the carpentry :smallbiggrin:

So really, you make bolts for profit for a while, but as soon as you have the capital to do so, you outsource that and start mass production of a new, powerful sniping crossbow. That's where you make BANK.

[Kadesh]

Make the bolts cost 4x more. A .5 Cal bullet costs more than what you put in a pistol, after all.

I don't think cost has ever been an issue in survival games, as that suggests you have the ability to spend the gp.

[Millface]

I don't think cost has ever been an issue in survival games, as that suggests you have the ability to spend the gp.

Super. Then they start with fewer, or it takes longer to craft them, or more scavenged materials. It's not hard to make something 4x harder to get, and if it does the work of 4 of one thing, making it 4x harder to get balances it.

[Kadesh]

Super. Then they start with fewer, or it takes longer to craft them, or more scavenged materials. It's not hard to make something 4x harder to get, and if it does the work of 4 of one thing, making it 4x harder to get balances it.

So it is an equipment thing now, rather than character thing? Can everyone pick up sniper xbows and bolts now that turn your extra attack into one big damage? What happens if there are two crossbow people in the party? Can they share ammunition in their respective bolts?

[Millface]

So it is an equipment thing now, rather than character thing? Can everyone pick up sniper xbows and bolts now that turn your extra attack into one big damage? What happens if there are two crossbow people in the party? Can they share ammunition in their respective bolts?

Uhhh... maybe it's a proficiency in the form of a homebrew feat that anyone can take?

In which case, if they craft a similar crossbow and bolts or commission the same then yes, they would be interchangeable.

[Jerrykhor]

I too have wondered this before, but as time goes by I learnt one thing: More attacks is always better. Banking on your first roll to be a Nat 20 is not a good bet. It might be a Nat 1, and you just broke all the eggs in your basket. You won't be rolling 4 Nat 1s on all 4 attacks, unless you've been cursed by the dice gods.

[Man_Over_Game]

I too have wondered this before, but as time goes by I learnt one thing: More attacks is always better. Banking on your first roll to be a Nat 20 is not a good bet. It might be a Nat 1, and you just broke all the eggs in your basket. You won't be rolling 4 Nat 1s on all 4 attacks, unless you've been cursed by the dice gods.

This ties in to one of the most important aspects: Consistency is to the benefit of the player.

When armies of badguys can be thrown at you and none of them have names, stories, or any reason to live beyond this encounter, it's not planning that's going to make them win; they're going to win with the eventual bad luck.

Players don't throw themselves into hopeless, or even balanced, situations. They force things to work out in their favor, so that the most likely option is that they're the victors, or have a backup plan to survive anyway.
Actually, after thinking about it, let me rewind.

-----------------------------

Have you played Fire Emblem? Have you ever banked on a single attack determining the life-or-death decision of your dumb archer who you need to level up, and you have like a 80% chance to kill the boss with this archer, and you MISS? And now that your archer died, you're gonna be a little b**** and reset the entire map that you spent an hour on to miss on the last attack.

It's kinda like that. Even when players are losing, they can maintain control of a situation by managing the odds, spell slots, escape routes, and other things. By making something more "swingy", they lose their ability to plan. Sure, bad guys can't plan either, but they don't need to since they don't need to survive.

[Dronedevil]

As others have said though, you've yet to explain exactly why rogue doesn't already address what you're looking for.

The reason I've not gone with rouge, is that I'd like to try it with the fighter. This sort of sniper would pretty much be objectively better as a rouge, but that's not the point. An inquisitive rouge could get around the needing advantage part of hitting, giving me a pretty reliable 1d10+13d6+15 damage at LvL 20.

It's more about the concept, as i see this character taking a lit of "military training" feats, such as healer and martial adept, just to give the feel of your typical military dude set of skills. A combination of the Fighter allowing me to pick up way more flavor feats, and the Sharpshooter subclass being an interesting addition to the game, made me theorize about this build. Most of my characters are about the concept. I usually don't care about optimizing a character. I just want them to not be dead weight, and I'm happy.

I've played the classical longbow + Assassin a little bit for the one hit kill and 200 damage attacks from 600 ft, but it's gimmicky in a way I'm not too fond of.

I might rather consider revamping the Sharpshooter for a Rouge. Could be that that is the easiest way to solve my issue.

[GlenSmash!]

The reason I've not gone with rouge, is that I'd like to try it with the fighter. This sort of sniper would pretty much be objectively better as a rouge, but that's not the point. An inquisitive rouge could get around the needing advantage part of hitting, giving me a pretty reliable 1d10+13d6+15 damage at LvL 20.

It's more about the concept, as i see this character taking a lit of "military training" feats, such as healer and martial adept, just to give the feel of your typical military dude set of skills. A combination of the Fighter allowing me to pick up way more flavor feats, and the Sharpshooter subclass being an interesting addition to the game, made me theorize about this build. Most of my characters are about the concept. I usually don't care about optimizing a character. I just want them to not be dead weight, and I'm happy.

I've played the classical longbow + Assassin a little bit for the one hit kill and 200 damage attacks from 600 ft, but it's gimmicky in a way I'm not too fond of.

I might rather consider revamping the Sharpshooter for a Rouge. Could be that that is the easiest way to solve my issue.

How does the Fighter pick up way more flavor Feats when Fighters only get one more feat than Rogues?

[Dronedevil]

Honestly, I would just fluff this as being how my character operates. The multiple attack rolls are really just abstractions for taking variables like airflow, subtle movements of the target, or initial starting positions into account. Each successful roll would really be hitting another vital spot on the pass through (story-wise, most of my hits are critical hits). In turns where I target multiple creatures, I'm forgoing my ridiculously effective aiming for better coverage.

Yeah, that's one way to do it, but to me its more about the feel of the roll. Does it hit? Does it miss? And knowing that if I do hit, it's a proper hit.
I have a habit of making things harder than it needs to be, just for the simple stuff.

[Dronedevil]

How does the Fighter pick up way more flavor Feats when Fighters only get one more feat than Rogues?

The Feat part is just a small part of it. It's mostly about the concept.
But I'll probably give up on it for now.
Reworking/creating sharpshooter as a subclass for rogue seems easier after all.

[Kadesh]

The Feat part is just a small part of it. It's mostly about the concept.
But I'll probably give up on it for now.
Reworking/creating sharpshooter as a subclass for rogue seems easier after all.

Fighter 1/Rogue Assassin X. Done.

[Dronedevil]

Fighter 1/Rogue Assassin X. Done.

I've played the Assassin build before. The idea of the thread was to have it be a fighter. That was kinda the whole point. But I'll just make a dedicated sniper rouge subclass or something.

[Kane0]

Doesn't really need to be a subclass even. Take Battlemaster or Arcane Archer, pick Archery and Sharpshooter, modify extra attack.

Option 1: When you take the attack action your attack deals damage as if you hit two/three/four times.
Option 2: When you take the attack action you can make an additional one/two/three attacks, each one adding cumulative damage to creatures struck

[Kadesh]

I've played the Assassin build before. The idea of the thread was to have it be a fighter. That was kinda the whole point. But I'll just make a dedicated sniper rouge subclass or something.

But it wasn't though - Fighters bring extra attack to the table, and you want to change it to a supremely powerful attack. If you've already played Assassin, go for a scout, then, perhaps with a Dash of Warlock to pick up Devil's Sight and Chain or Tome pact for utility. It gets less Alpha potential, but it's a fine combo.