Alternate form into a specific individual

[Crake]

Say you're a silver dragon, you can use alternate form to turn into humanoids, and a typical human has 10/10/10 as it's physical statistics, so sure, turning into a typical human would net you those stats. However, it says you gain the physical scores of the form you take. If you're taking the form of a particular human, who maybe has 10 strength, 16 dex and 14 con, would you gain those physical statistics instead? After all, those are the physical ability scores of the form you're assuming.

[Jack_Simth]

Say you're a silver dragon, you can use alternate form to turn into humanoids, and a typical human has 10/10/10 as it's physical statistics, so sure, turning into a typical human would net you those stats. However, it says you gain the physical scores of the form you take. If you're taking the form of a particular human, who maybe has 10 strength, 16 dex and 14 con, would you gain those physical statistics instead? After all, those are the physical ability scores of the form you're assuming.

You're disguised as that specific individual. You're still an average member of the race.

[Crake]

You're disguised as that specific individual. You're still an average member of the race.

Where exactly does it say that though? Nowhere in the rules for alternate form does it say you use the average statistics of a member of that race, it always says you use the abilities of the form, and the form is of a specific indivudal.

[ShurikVch]

Note: Dragons of Eberron have Hidden Strength feat, and Strength of the True Form spell

[Crake]

Note: Dragons of Eberron have Hidden Strength feat, and Strength of the True Form spell

While I'm totally aware of these spells, the specific situation is actually this: A character in one of my games is contemplating (read: I've just given them the idea, but it's not necessarily going one way or the other just yet) turning into a silver dragon, properly (via savage species transformation rituals). They're a silverbrow human, and it's going to be along the lines of assuming the natural power of their heritage. But, to maintain their normal identity, I was thinking they could turn back into their old humanoid form with their alternate form ability, maintaining their old humanoid ability scores.

[Tajerio]

While I'm totally aware of these spells, the specific situation is actually this: A character in one of my games is contemplating (read: I've just given them the idea, but it's not necessarily going one way or the other just yet) turning into a silver dragon, properly (via savage species transformation rituals). They're a silverbrow human, and it's going to be along the lines of assuming the natural power of their heritage. But, to maintain their normal identity, I was thinking they could turn back into their old humanoid form with their alternate form ability, maintaining their old humanoid ability scores.

By RAW it's not entirely clear to me, but in the situation you've described I think your solution is vastly superior to handing out 10s and 11s.

[Bronk]

It could be both a huge hassle and a huge bummer to lose his original stats, but since you're using a ritual, you could warn him about that both in character and out, then offer to let him research or quest for an alteration to the ritual that would allow it.

[RedWarlock]

Does the ritual replace your scores with those of the default iteration of the new species, or does it apply racial modifiers? Either way, I’d say allowing a character in that instance to retain their personal rolled scores when they ‘return’ to their original form would be reasonable. Maybe apply a slight cost modification to the ritual expenses?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If I were running a game, I'd houserule that shapeshifting effects replace one's racial ability score modifiers with those of the new form, encouraging casters who use wild shape, polymorph, et al to NOT dump their physical stats. A druid who starts with a 6 in their Strength score is going to be significantly weaker than one who has a 16, even when they both wild shape into T-Rexes.

[ericgrau]

Where exactly does it say that though? Nowhere in the rules for alternate form does it say you use the average statistics of a member of that race, it always says you use the abilities of the form, and the form is of a specific indivudal.

The disguise and ability score part is here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm

It's true the part of staying within the typical norms is missing, unlike other similar spells. This might be an oversight, or alternate form might be less limited in the forms it can assume. Regardless size, ability score and some other things are of the new form. So you couldn't be a human who is so big/tall that he's size Large, for example. And yes you get 10's and 11's; it's stretching the rules otherwise. At most you might get the non-elite array from a monster's default entry. And no you can't automatically be a perfect match of a specific individual. You can get close, which is what the disguise check is for. Likewise you might look like someone with 16 str while having a 10 str. Even without magic there are plenty of ways to accomplish this. Reading it otherwise is only trying to push the wording to say what you want. I see you're trying to say X is Y and Y is Z, but that's your own manipulation of the words. It's not necessarily true or false, regardless of attempts to pretend it is definition not opinion. And where it contradicts the disguise roll and default ability scores it is absolutely false.

Otherwise screw str 16, I'm changing into a str 30+ hero. Or at least 28 before gear. Arbitrarily limiting it to 18 str doesn't make the argument any stronger btw because it still violates everything mentioned above. This is just another reason why the liberal reading and injecting these opinions into what the rules might mean doesn't hold water.

I'm a little hungry right now and not trying to be mean. Hope this answers your question. Likewise I'm not assuming that you're actively trying to twist the rules. Just saying watch out for opinion and bias with this rule and all rules in general.

[Bronk]

If you do go with just adjusting the ritual to make things easier for everyone, you'll probably want to decide if they also get to keep their relative ability scores as bonuses to their dragon form abilities as well. I think I would ask about that.

[Crake]

The disguise and ability score part is here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm

It's true the part of staying within the typical norms is missing, unlike other similar spells. This might be an oversight, or alternate form might be less limited in the forms it can assume. Regardless size, ability score and some other things are of the new form. So you couldn't be a human who is so big/tall that he's size Large, for example. And yes you get 10's and 11's; it's stretching the rules otherwise. At most you might get the non-elite array from a monster's default entry. And no you can't automatically be a perfect match of a specific individual. You can get close, which is what the disguise check is for. Likewise you might look like someone with 16 str while having a 10 str. Even without magic there are plenty of ways to accomplish this. Reading it otherwise is only trying to push the wording to say what you want. I see you're trying to say X is Y and Y is Z, but that's your own manipulation of the words. It's not necessarily true or false, regardless of attempts to pretend it is definition not opinion. And where it contradicts the disguise roll and default ability scores it is absolutely false.

Otherwise screw str 16, I'm changing into a str 30+ hero. Or at least 28 before gear. Arbitrarily limiting it to 18 str doesn't make the argument any stronger btw because it still violates everything mentioned above. This is just another reason why the liberal reading and injecting these opinions into what the rules might mean doesn't hold water.

I'm a little hungry right now and not trying to be mean. Hope this answers your question. Likewise I'm not assuming that you're actively trying to twist the rules. Just saying watch out for opinion and bias with this rule and all rules in general.

Well, the way I would rule it, as I generally do for the most part, if you want to be able to transform into a 30+ str hero, you need to FIND one, and become decently familiar with that hero's body before you can change into something like that. I require that for most things that are out of the norm (for example, a druid wanting to shapeshift into dinosaurs needs to go to the dinosaur island in my world and study dinosaurs). I understand that doesn't help the issue of RAW though.

I'm not trying to frame anything in any particular way, but I did notice that alternate form never at all mentioned that you were taking the statistics of a type of creature, but rather of a form, and form is much more specific than a type of creature. This led me to question if this was possible at all, which then led me to question the entire premise of alternate form to begin with, in that it gives you the average statistics of the type of creature you become. I've honestly always thought alternate form has been really crappy compared to change shape in that regard, when turning into humanoids, change shape is quite universally better, as, for example, a human form offers absolutely nothing, and while change shape will keep 90% of your own statistics, including natural armor and ability scores, alternate form retains practically none, bar supernatural abilities (excluding breath weapons, which is about half a dragon's attack routine on it's own anyway), giving you nothing in return and replacing your ability scores with 10/10/10. And yes, I know the strength of the true form spell exists, and yes, I know you can make a custom item for it for super cheap that basically gives you your dragon form's ability scores constantly, but that spell wasn't around for ages, and relying on a magic item seems stupid, especially for dragons, which are stereotypically known for disliking magic items as part of their hoard (according to the draconomicon).


It could be both a huge hassle and a huge bummer to lose his original stats, but since you're using a ritual, you could warn him about that both in character and out, then offer to let him research or quest for an alteration to the ritual that would allow it.


Does the ritual replace your scores with those of the default iteration of the new species, or does it apply racial modifiers? Either way, I’d say allowing a character in that instance to retain their personal rolled scores when they ‘return’ to their original form would be reasonable. Maybe apply a slight cost modification to the ritual expenses?


If you do go with just adjusting the ritual to make things easier for everyone, you'll probably want to decide if they also get to keep their relative ability scores as bonuses to their dragon form abilities as well. I think I would ask about that.

Yes, the ritual does keep the original ability scores, just applying the racial adjustments, that's not a problem at all.


If I were running a game, I'd houserule that shapeshifting effects replace one's racial ability score modifiers with those of the new form, encouraging casters who use wild shape, polymorph, et al to NOT dump their physical stats. A druid who starts with a 6 in their Strength score is going to be significantly weaker than one who has a 16, even when they both wild shape into T-Rexes.

I've been honestly thinking about applying this as a blanket houserule as well, though it DOES make polymorphing the party fighter suddenly significantly stronger.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I've been honestly thinking about applying this as a blanket houserule as well, though it DOES make polymorphing the party fighter suddenly significantly stronger.Honestly, isn't that a good thing?

[SLOTHRPG95]

Honestly, isn't that a good thing?

I'd say so. Any buff spell that wizards are actively encouraged to place on martials? I'll take two, thanks.

[Crake]

I'd say so. Any buff spell that wizards are actively encouraged to place on martials? I'll take two, thanks.


Honestly, isn't that a good thing?

I suppose it depends on how you look at it? Not all martials are happy with the idea of being polymorphed, as it takes away from the fantasy that they're going for. Polymorphing wizard certainly fits in many fantasies, of wizards turning into dragons and other mystical creatures, but most of the fantasy behind being a fighter is in you being the pinnacle of physical perfection, not from being transformed into a walking meatgrinder as a 12 headed hydra or the like.