Meat machine

[Malapterus]

I'm still somewhat new to 5E and I don't really like it, but it's what my group plays so it's what I do.

One thing about 5E is that I feel that Dexterity is really overpowered, and Strength is basically a wasted stat unless you come across some very specific perils.

On top of that, strength-enhancing items just override your strength instead of increasing it, so if you are 'fortunate' enough to find one for your bruiser character, you've wasted so many of your starting points.

With that said, I want to make a big bruiser character for a 5E game. Looking at Half-Orc (even though mountain dwarf is better I'm sure) and seeing what I can do with all that strength.

Probably a fighter or barbarian, but I am still open. I like the idea of not needing weapons and being deadly with my hands, but also being able to benefit when I DO have a weapon. I'd take building around a weapon versus building over this double style crap if i can't make it work.

[Kadesh]

Kensei Monk can work with Strength and although it recieves the most benefit from a high Dex, there isn't anything stopping you from mitigating your lower Dex with the Dex Boost.

It means you cannot use Armour or Shield though, but ignoring Dex means that your Deflect Arrows and Evasion is slightly less effective (meh). Kensei mitigates AC slightly, Barbarian 3 gives you Rage for additional damage and Resistance, Danger Sense for Advantage on Dex Saves, your choice of elemental resist, party melee adv without prone ruining things for ranged dudes, additional melee weapon damage with cheap revives, or party damage mitigation

What level are you looking for?

Monk 9/Barbarian 3

Levelled as Kensei 5 then Barb 3, then the rest Monk gets a decent build. Kensei 5 is a decent breakpoint. Hopefully magic weapons are available soon anyway, and 1/turn random bonus damage is mitigated by potentially 3-4/turn flat bonus damage when you rage.

Orcish Fury is a decentish half str feat for 4th - 1/short rest bonus damage, and relentless endurance gives you a reaction attack after preserving your rage bonus.

When you go back to levelling, bonus Kensei damage puts you back on track to deal more damage, +2 Str, Sentinel or Great Weapon Master work very well.

Also, ask your DM if Dex items would be allowed at the same rarity as other '19' Items.

[Unoriginal]

One thing about 5E is that I feel that Dexterity is really overpowered

You are incorrect. DEX is not overpowered. Its only advantage over Strength is that it boosts Initiative too.



and Strength is basically a wasted stat unless you come across some very specific perils.

Also wrong. STR is one of the basic tools of adventuring. Good luck even carrying your equipment if you dumped it.



On top of that, strength-enhancing items just override your strength instead of increasing it, so if you are 'fortunate' enough to find one for your bruiser character, you've wasted so many of your starting points.

If the item gives you superhuman strength, you've wasted nothing. The item makes you stronger, and if you happen to be somewhere where you can't rely on it you're still very strong.

If you have the Gauntlets of Ogre Powers, well, it's not the best item for pure bruisers. For those like Clerics who have STR not as priority, though? It great.



(even though mountain dwarf is better I'm sure

Not really.



Probably a fighter or barbarian, but I am still open. I like the idea of not needing weapons and being deadly with my hands, but also being able to benefit when I DO have a weapon. I'd take building around a weapon versus building over this double style crap if i can't make it work.

Well, Half-Orc is often used in crit-fishing build, combined with Champion.

Cavalier is pretty great. I think Samurai combo with Half-Orc well, too, but I'm not sure.

You could go Strength Monk, too.

If you want to go unarmed as an Half-Orc without being a Monk, the Tavern Brawler feat is a must.

[CTurbo]

Goliath Bear totem Barbarian

Take Tavern Brawler and Max Str asap

I've played this exact character and its excellent at fighting unarmed with or without grappling as well as using any weapon you might come across.

[Unoriginal]

Question is if you want to be strong AND resistant, or just strong.

[ImproperJustice]

Based on OP, I am concerned that character development is not your biggest obstacle to a good time.

Also, try playing a Battlemaster tavern brawler. As Half-Orc you can prodigy for expertise in athletics.
Now get out there and start knocking some people prone + grapples and dragging people all over the place. Laugh as they try to overcome your mighty Athletics prowess because they dumped strength.

At level 8 take Athlete and carry them up walls with your newfound climb speed and slam them on the ground.

[Asmotherion]

Dexterity is Easyer to focus on.

Str can give you Heavyer AC through Armor. In 5e, AC counts a lot, thanks to Bounded Accuracy.

Wile Str is an easy stat to dump, it can also be meaningful to focus on for the right builds.

[Malapterus]

You are incorrect. DEX is not overpowered. Its only advantage over Strength is that it boosts Initiative too.

Also wrong. STR is one of the basic tools of adventuring. Good luck even carrying your equipment if you dumped it.

I'm a native 5e player where dex gave you armor class, movement skills, and reflex saves. You could take a Feat to limit your weapon choice and use dex for attack, but you would suffer on damage as it was still based on str.

str gave you attack but not defense, and it gave you damage. some other movement skills are affected, but not ones that come up very much, and carrying capacity if that is something you need to worry about.

in 5e, dex gives you the same attack AND damage benefits as dex, plus it adds to your AC, and there are the more-important movement skills still relying on dex, plus more tool-usey skills, and it's still also your save against area attacks. You also have the option of using dex or str for most of your combat maneuvers.

str gives you attack and damage, but no armor class, unless you count needing it for heavy armor. It's only used for hard movement skills such as jumping and such, which don't really come up that often. nothing really uses it for a save, and the only times you're screwed for not having it is if you get grappled or stuck in the mud. A DM would have to specifically tailor a campaign to punish someone for not having a strength bonus. Carrying capacity really is not important, even at 8 strength I have a well-armored dual-wielding half-elf with a small assortment of weapons.

Dex does so much more than any other stat, and Str has become probably the least relevant stat in the game. A character with 20 dex/10 str has the same attack roll and damage bonus as one with 20 str/10 dex, but higher armor class. They're in trouble if they get grappled, but with 5 extra points of touch AC & 5 extra points to Tumble that's probably not going to happen.

3.5:
Str- Melee attack, damage, combat maneuvers, carrying capacity, hard movement skills
Dex- Ranged attack, armor class, soft movement skills, handy skills, melee attack with a Feat, reflex saves
Con- Hit points, fort saves, and a single skill
Int- Wizard magic, skill points, smarty skills
Wis- Druid magic, Cleric Magic, useful skills, perception skills, will saves
Cha- Sorcerer magic, powerful social skills

5E:
Str- Melee attack, damage, carrying capacity, hard movement skills, combat maneuvers
Dex- Melee attack (no feat needed), ranged attack, damage, armor class, soft movement skills, handy skills, reflex saves*, combat maneuvers
Con- hit points, fort saves*, healing on the fly
Int- Wizard magic, smarty skills**, psionic defense
Wis- Druid magic, useful skills, will saves
Cha- Sorcerer magic, powerful social skills

*Saves don't exist anymore, but you're still using the same stats against the same threats
**Skill points don't exist anymore, screw you Intelligence!

Writing this I come to realize that in 3.5, if a stat didn't give you a save, it gave you something else important. Now, those things are either shared with another stat or just removed, with the exception of social skills.

I feel like you could pretty easily play a character that had an 8 in everything but Dex and just get that up to 20 as fast as possible. A Monk or Rogue could get by in 5E with nothing but Dex.

I'm still going with the Strength Orc, or Stork. It's funny that the only benefit a Strength-based character has in 5E is that people don't need Strength, and so it's just a matter of being an unusual opponent.

[Unoriginal]

and there are the more-important movement skills still relying on dex,

Wrong.



str gives you attack and damage, but no armor class, unless you count needing it for heavy armor.

Yes, I count something that gives you AC as giving you AC. The best ACs of 5e are available thanks to having high STR.



It's only used for hard movement skills such as jumping and such, which don't really come up that often.

Wrong.

STR checks, with or without Athletics proficiency, are used much more to progress through a standard adventuring environment.



Carrying capacity really is not important, even at 8 strength I have a well-armored dual-wielding half-elf with a small assortment of weapons.

Assuming studded leather and two rapiers, that leave you 100 lbs to carry. If you add one of the standard backpacks, it leaves you around 50 lbs. Guess you're not carrying much treasure, uh?



Dex does so much more than any other stat, and Str has become probably the least relevant stat in the game[QUOTE=Malapterus;23403062].

Still incorrect.

[QUOTE=Malapterus;23403062]
A character with 20 dex/10 str has the same attack roll and damage bonus as one with 20 str/10 dex, but higher armor class. They're in trouble if they get grappled, but with 5 extra points of touch AC & 5 extra points to Tumble that's probably not going to happen.

Why are you assuming armors don't exist?


A Monk or Rogue could get by in 5E with nothing but Dex.

Yes, the classes who are the most advantaged by high DEX can get by with high DEX.

[strangebloke]

Dexterity builds in 3.5 were much better skill monkeys but had onerous feat requirements and much lower damage. This was due to finesse being a feat tree, two-handed power attack being the only way to deal good damage, and due to all the STR skills being debuffed if you're wearing heavy armor. The fighter with 25 STR would often be the worst swimmer in the party.

In 5e, things are very different. Consider these two bog-standard S&B fighters.

Strength S&B
AC: 18-20 (16 chainmal or 18 plate, +2 shield) Typically maxes out AC by fifth level or so.
DPR: 1d8 + 2(dueling) + 3(STR) =9.5 per hit.
Skills that your stat applies to: Athletics, which applies to shoves, grappling, breaking things, jumping, swimming... It's a contender for most powerful skill in the game.

Dex S&B
AC: 17-19(12 Leather, +2 shield, +3 to +5 from stat) typically maxes out AC by sixth to eighth level.
DPR: 1d8 + 2(dueling) + 3(DEX) = 9.5 per hit
Skills that your stat applies to:

Stealth: The other contender for best skill in the game, although it has a major drawback in that you'll often be rolling stealth against three to four opposed perception checks. Notably, STR builds also suffer disadvantage here.
Acrobatics: Athletics, but much more limited in application. It can do a few things athletics can, and can also help you balance on things and squeeze into small spaces. Yay?
Sleight of Hand: It's not a waste of a proficiency, but its not worth picking one stat over another.


The Dex build also can switch to range more easily, and has better initiative (who cares?) and has slightly better DEX saves which are more common than STR saves.

...and that's it. In a straight fight, the strength fighter has a distinct advantage, with higher AC and the ability to consistently shove his opponent prone. The DEX fighter is more flexible and can more easily deal with flying opponents and kiting strategies. On the other hand, you probably want one strength based character in your party to act as mule and to kick down doors, and only 4 of the 12 base classes can even go for Strength builds without multiclassing.

Well, technically anyone with medium armor proficiency can focus STR. So that opens it up to rangers, hexblades, etc.

So yeah, most builds will prefer DEX to STR, but that only makes Strength more appealing for the people who can focus it. And STR is still less of a dump stat than INT due to carrying capacity, particularly if your DM uses the encumbrance rules.

The issue really is that ranged builds are just too powerful.

[Kadesh]

Rather han dkscussing 3.5, is there anything out of the build stubs presented for this game you supposedly want to play that you like? Any mechanics you like the look of? Anything you feel is absent?

[Malapterus]

Alright, it looks like we're going for full-blooded Orc, Fighter
we'll be using the 'samaurai' subclass, but he won't really be a samaurai, just using those abilities

Str 20
Dex 16
Con 19
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 8

Due to the stats rolling up so generously I'll be getting heavily into Feats instead of trying to improve them.

Is there any benefit to using a two-handed weapon? They seem to do a tiny bit more damage and they have some fighting styles or feats for more reliable damage, but they still just do your Strength in damage versus 1.5 or any other such benefit.

Compare this to the option of going 2-weapon fighting, tavern brawler, grappler. Not even counting my Powerful Build, I'd be getting two 1d4+str attacks at my full bonus, and each attack has the potential to be a trip or a grapple. With all that, even if I don't take any special bonuses to a greatsword, I'm still pretty handy with a greatsword. I'm also pretty dangerous with a nice supply of handaxes, since those are a Strength-based attack roll even when thrown. I feel like this build makes me very capable with a greatsword, two little swords, any random weapon, any random object, or even my bare hands. The only problem I see is that part of what I wanted from full Orc was the 'aggressive' racial feature, and that uses my bonus action, so it'd be vying with my two-weapon-fighting for the use of that.

So, how does building around a Greatsword compare to building around a tavern brawler? I can take a Feat every time with no regrets so keep that in mind.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Grappling can mean good control if you're clever about it. Great weapons are only a moderate increase in damage over 1-handers until you add the feat Great Weapon Master. Some DM's around here have banned it, if that gives any indication on how good it is.

-5/+10 is an excellent trade against all but the most heavily armored opponents, and extra bonus action attacks on crits/kills is a great perk, too. And if you have a particular fondness for stinky, stinky cheese- pick a glaive, grab Polearm Master at 4, then GWM at 6, then Sentinel at 8. Enjoy your absolutely monstrous number of heavy-hitting attacks every round, combined with some very serious area control.

WARNING- Your DM will give you the stink eye.

[Malapterus]

Grappling can mean good control if you're clever about it. Great weapons are only a moderate increase in damage over 1-handers until you add the feat Great Weapon Master. Some DM's around here have banned it, if that gives any indication on how good it is.

-5/+10 is an excellent trade against all but the most heavily armored opponents, and extra bonus action attacks on crits/kills is a great perk, too. And if you have a particular fondness for stinky, stinky cheese- pick a glaive, grab Polearm Master at 4, then GWM at 6, then Sentinel at 8. Enjoy your absolutely monstrous number of heavy-hitting attacks every round, combined with some very serious area control.

WARNING- Your DM will give you the stink eye.

How will this all pair with my racial ability to move up to my speed toward an enemy as a bonus action?

[Waterdeep Merch]

How will this all pair with my racial ability to move up to my speed toward an enemy as a bonus action?

Gap closing, when needed. Ordinarily, your bonus actions will be spent better on either haft strikes with PAM or conserved in case of lucky crits/kills for GWM-procced attacks. When that's not viable thanks to poor opening position, you can use your orc Aggressive trait to get up in their face quickly, or to re-position yourself when needed (remember that you only need to move towards an enemy you can see and hear- it doesn't matter if there's an enemy right in front of you, you can choose one that's much further out if moving towards them can get you into a better place).

If you go with the PAM/GWM/Sentinel combo, you become an area denial fiend. I'd prefer to mix this with the cavalier subclass from Xanathar's for Unwavering Mark, Warding Maneuver, Hold the Line, and Vigilant Defender if you get that high- they all compliment this style of play. Battlemaster maneuvers are equally viable, though, while champion and samurai can improve your offensive capabilities and eldritch knight could turn you into an immovable wall. Really, only the arcane archer and purple dragon knight are poor options; the former for obvious reasons, and the latter only because it's generally bad and unhelpful unless you're gung-ho about getting some team support abilities.

[Lonely Tylenol]

If you’re allowed, the Brute subclass (https://media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/UA-3Subclasses0108.pdf) of the Fighter is great for playing a hard-hitting fistfighter. You deal the same amount of bonus damage whether you hit with 1d4 or 2d6 on your Weapon, so it’s a good go-to in order to get rider damage on your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons, turning 1d4 (Tavern Brawler) into 2d4, or 1d4 + 1d6, and so on. If your DM is permissive and will allow “punching with my off-hand is an off-hand attack” (a reasonable enough conclusion, but definitely steps on the toes of the Monk’s Martial Arts—though the real value of that is the scaling damage dice and ability modifier to damage on the extra attack, anyway), you can single-class Brute, taking the Two-Weapon Fighting and later Defense fighting styles, the Tavern Brawler, Heavy Armor Master, and Tough (once your Con is maxed) feats, and then just swing on people—though you could also multiclass into Bear Totem Barbarian to get a few daily rages (for a flat +2 damage rider), Con to AC, advantage on all your attacks, and resistance to basically everything (while raging). If your DM is not so permissive, a single level into Monk, or three levels into Berserker Barbarian (provided you can talk down the exhaustion on a Frenzy), will accomplish the same thing.

It’s not a Great Weapon/Polearm Master, damage-wise, but few things are, and it’s still competitive with most other builds, while also achieving the Juggernaut look and feel pretty well.

Edit to add: with your amazing array (looks to be 18/18/16/14/12/8 before adjustments), this sort of build could use a Variant Human (to snag an earlier feat), Dwarf (I’d probably actually go Hill - you’ll get to 20 Strength soon enough, but extra HP/level above 20 Con is much harder to come by), Goliath, Orc and Orc by-products... Heck, even weird outliers like Kalashtar (grab that psychic resistance to be an even better Bear!) or Tabaxi (to get claws and have more skill proficiencies, making yourself generally more well-rounded). You have options. Go wild.

[Ruebin Rybnik]

snipped

On top of that, strength-enhancing items just override your strength instead of increasing it, so if you are 'fortunate' enough to find one for your bruiser character, you've wasted so many of your starting points.


I agree and wish they had made these items more of a bonus instead. Something like this:
Gauntlets of Ogre = keep the same
Hill = +1 to all STR based rolls
Stone/Frost = +2
Fire = +3
Cloud = +4
Storm = +5

This way both STR and non STR PC benefit from them.

[Man_Over_Game]

Please try to continue to be civil on this discussion, guys.

OP makes a lot of good points, but there are a few things to remember. DEX is great if you have it maxed out, but its effectiveness is dramatically dependent on you having it as an 18+ stat. Because of the fact that a 15 STR can get you 18 AC and a 20 DEX is getting you 17 AC, STR is a lot better for those players who aren't constantly rerolling for the best stats.

STR-based builds also don't have as much reliance on bonus actions, since they perform roughly the same with a two-hander vs two-weapon fighting. Two-hander combat is also a lot more fluid for spell casters, since they don't have to manage a second weapon/shield.

DEX is going to be a lot better for those interested in RP, as you have benefits to most tools and several important skills. STR will naturally appear weaker in a campaign where weight doesn't matter and athletics checks aren't used often enough, which are common problems for us DMs to cause.

Mostly, though, I find it comes down to money. DEX characters generally don't need to pay for much. They're often Rangers, Monks, or some build that uses low power/common finesse weapons. STR characters need plate, big weapons, and sometimes they just don't get access to that kind of cool stuff. But the same argument could be made for a Druid vs. a Wizard, where one person gets handed everything at level 1, and the other has to find a way to become the best they can be.

[Malapterus]

Alright, so I'm looking at Orc Samurai, full-blooded Orc, stats above.

Looking to follow the heavy polearm master bit as described above; I intend to be the 'keep these idiots live' sort of tank; not a party leader or a glory hog.

Now, we'll be starting out with zero gear, and while I'm sure we'll get some soon, my last hangup is the fighting style.

I really don't think 'great weapon fighting' is all that great, especially with my high Str bonus. I could be wrong, but I think with the reliable number of attacks I'll end up with I'll be hitting enough to suffer the occasional crappy roll. I know that having a 50% chance of improving any and every crappy roll DOES go well with lots of attacks, but still, if I was -that- focused on per-hit damage I'd be going with Brute.

What I am looking for is reliable -effectiveness-, and for that I am looking at Two-Weapon Fighting. Right out the gate, bare-ass naked, I'll be able to throw two good punches per turn, dealing 6 damage each. Later on if I squeeze in Tavern Brawler, I'll get more unarmed damage, free trips and grapples, and can grab whatever is around to improvise a weapon of choice. (shovel = improvised glaive?) I feel like taking this and later making room for Tavern Brawler will make me a very effective defender/tank/killer in all situations, even butt naked in an empty room.

Do you guys think the benefits of TWF outweigh those of Great Weapon Fighting, considering I intend to get Great Weapon Master later anyway?

[Lonely Tylenol]

Best general advice on fighting style is to get it for the thing you plan on using the most. Great Weapon Fighting doesn’t do much for you, but if you’re using a Polearm, Two-Weapon Fighting is doing even less (because you’re not fighting with two weapons, but also, because Polearm Master lets you add your Strength to the bonus action attack anyway). If you’re planning on punching a lot, and your DM lets you make “off-hand attacks” with your, well, off-hand, then Two-Weapon Fighting makes the most sense. If you’re undecided on weapon style choice, or plan on using a bunch of different things without a special commitment to one (or just using the best weapon the DM throws your way), then Defense becomes the best fighting style, because no matter what your weapon is, it’ll be accompanied by +1 AC.

[Sigreid]

As you level up and get extra attacks, TWF is completely left in the dust by GWM since it only ever gives you 1 extra attack at a lower damage.

[Malapterus]

As you level up and get extra attacks, TWF is completely left in the dust by GWM since it only ever gives you 1 extra attack at a lower damage.

talking about great weapon fighting, not great weapon [I]master[I].

i feel like with two-weapon-fighting and lord of the pole i can get in the habit of two-weapon-fighting whether i have my glaive or not, but at the same time i'm not sure how often i'll be in a situation where i'll lose my primary weapon

[Sigreid]

talking about great weapon fighting, not great weapon [I]master[I].

i feel like with two-weapon-fighting and lord of the pole i can get in the habit of two-weapon-fighting whether i have my glaive or not, but at the same time i'm not sure how often i'll be in a situation where i'll lose my primary weapon

Haven't done the math, other people here are better than me for that but I think it still holds. The two should be about equal at level 1 so I believe big weapons become more and more superior as you level.

[Waterdeep Merch]

TWF can't function without two actual weapons, and it's benefit is basically overridden by simply having Polearm Master later (both require your bonus action; while an offhand shortsword is a d6 compared to the d4 of the PAM haft strike, PAM doesn't require a fighting style to add attribute damage, and all your other attacks are done with a d10 versus the d6 you'd be saddled with for your primary hand. Even the Dual Wielder feat with longswords just barely catches up, damage-wise, not to mention the difficulty with getting two decent magic weapons versus one, and how they might eat up an extra attunement slot you could use for something cooler).

But you are completely correct that you don't see too much of a damage increase out of the great weapon fighting style. We're talking just a handful of points, on average. Personally, I'd take Defense. It looks a little boring, but an AC bump of any sort is relatively hard to come by in 5e. Can help you stay in the thick of things longer.

[R.Shackleford]

My favorite thing about Str > Dex is that Athletics is both a defensive and an offensive tool whereas Acrobatics is primarily a defensive tool.

Dex based characters can't shove/grapple all that well.

Initiative is nice, but generally not needed all that much in 5e compared to a game like 3e.