Players want to slay a dragon

[Ronnocius]

In the game I am currently DMing, my mixed group of level 2's and level 3's want to slay a young red dragon they met previously, whom I expected them to actually negotiate with.

The party is:
- lvl 3 wood elf rogue (scout)
- lvl 3 dragonborn draconic sorcerer
- lvl 2 half-orc barbarian
- lvl 2 lightfoot halfling ranger
- lvl 2 half-elf bard

There are a few more players, but they will probably not be present for the next game.

The players have met the dragon before. In the first session they were in the stronghold of a fire giant, and the dragon (also a slave) started a prison break which enabled them to escape. After a couple of sessions, they were hired by a baron to investigate why his scout did not report back. The scout had been kidnapped by some kobold minions who the dragon had attracted the service of. The adventurers discovered this pretty quickly and tracked the scout to the dragon's lair, where the kobolds were preparing to eat him. They met the dragon and immediately the dragonborn began acting very aggressively towards him (getting up in his face, insulting him, trying to pet him) so the dragon ordered that they were thrown into his "dungeon" (just a pit further into the lair, as the dragon had only been in control of the lair for a week). The bard convinced the dragon to free them and the scout on the condition that they retrieve a gemstone for him. The group have the gemstone the dragon wants but they are plotting his death.

I want them to be able to make whatever decisions they want in my campaign, so I don't have any problem with them facing off with the dragon. However I also want their choices to matter, so I am not going to bail them out if they do fight the dragon. I have a few concerns though.

For example I do not think all of the players want to fight the dragon, and I do not want the ones who don't want to fight to be caught in the crossfire, so I will have to try and not use his breath weapon (because he also doesn't want to accidentally kill his kobolds). I tried to demonstrate the dragon's power by having him make an attack against a kobold minion (which didn't impress them as it was rolled poorly) and another attack against one of the players when they were annoying the dragon. Some of the players are new, but most of them are not newbies and they should know how strong a dragon, even a young dragon, is.

Does anybody have any ideas about what to do in this situation?

[Sigreid]

Tell all the players together that you won't pull any punches and it's up to each individual whether they want to fight the dragon. No one is going to make them. And there's every chance that this is an incredibly bad idea.

[Laserlight]

"Any of you want to fight the dragon, go ahead. If you are very clever and quite lucky, it is possible that not all of you will die. But everyone who decides to try it needs to show me their backup character at the beginning of that session."

[MaxWilson]

In the game I am currently DMing, my mixed group of level 2's and level 3's want to slay a young red dragon they met previously, whom I expected them to actually negotiate with...

Does anybody have any ideas about what to do in this situation?

Sounds like a perfect opportunity to view things from the dragon's perspective.

If you were originally expecting them to negotiate with it, clearly it has some desires, either things it wants done or conversations it wants to have or treasure it wants captured. As DM, you can see how this is going and you're pretty sure the party is not going to win the fight, but they're charging in anyway... so figure out what will happen if they lose, and what will happen if they win. It's more likely they will lose than win, so spend more time on that.

What does the dragon want, and is it more likely to get that thing if it kills the PCs or if it just stomps them flat with breath weapon and strafing runs doing nonlethal melee damage, waits to see how many PCs make their death saves, and dictates terms to them? Something like: "I will keep this gnome here, and you other four go steal for me the Red Orb of Cankuun, or the gnome gets it, and then I will hunt down every one of the rest of you and eat you up. Oh and by the way, I like your plate armor and I'm keeping it."

What does the dragon want, and how will it get it?

Edit: for extra fun, choose the hostage by random die roll, right there during the conversation. "The dragon opens its claw and drops a little white object that looks like bone, shaped something like this... [DM rolls a d6] and when it rolls to a stop... the dragon squints at it, then mutters something [one, two, three, pointing to the players in turn]... it jabs a talon and says, 'YOU! The gnome in the cage.'"

Edit2: oh, I didn't read the spoiler before. Apparently they have already done this dance with the dragon and are planning to betray him. I think I would do the same thing basically, but with more emphasis: take more obvious joy in overmatching the PCs in combat, give them a harder assignment, take more of their gear, rub their nose in their failure a little bit more, give them lots of reasons to hate the dragon. Look up some literature on running a prison break in an RPG, because that's basically what is kind of happening, with the dragon in the position of prison warden.

When a prison break is attempted, there are basically four ways it can play out:

1. They escape successfully.

2. They fail and are recaptured, and the warden rubs it in their face ("you will NEVER escape!"), punishes them, and gives them more reasons to hate him.

3. A third party rescues them (in order to use them in their own schemes).

4. They fail to escape and die. This ends play.

#4 can happen sometimes but it's not the only failure mode.

[Galithar]

What I do in my games is make it very clear how overmatched they are. In my current campaign I had the party encounter a Young Dragon and it's Kobold minions. They weren't supposed to fight them so I made a point of describing the 4 'elite' Kobold Guards (Kobolds with a slightly higher AC due to the fancy Kobold armor they had :P ) as well as the other Kobolds (8) present. Then I made a big deal about the size of the Dragon (as big as could reasonably still be labeled Large). They knew they had no chance and even the most murder Hoboish player didn't try anything against the Dragon. Now that's not to say I artificially empowered then over what they should have had in story to dissuade then from attacking. I just made it clear that they were no match for them... Yet.

It's also a good idea in situations like this to OoC let the party know that in situations like this if someone doesn't want to fight, and their character logically wouldn't (IE the murder hobo fighter probably isn't allowed to sit out just because he Meta-Game knows he'll die unless he explains why he would suddenly sit out, which facing a Dragon actually isn't difficult but I'm getting sidetracked), then if they don't act in support of the fight they won't be targeted, AoEs can still hit them but they can safely move away from the fight on their turn(s) with the knowledge that the Dragon will uphold his end of the deal if they don't try to fight him. This would then extend to any all/neutral interaction that only part of the party wants to betray in the future.

[MaxWilson]

Oh, I just had another idea:

Once the dragon knocks them all unconscious, they awake in a gladiatorial arena, naked and without gear but at full HP (long rest). They're supposed to fight until only one of them is standing--if they refuse to fight each other, kobold archers will start picking them off anyway until only one is standing. (You may get some nice player interaction there with some players knocking each other out and others protecting friends from the kobold archers.) The dragon's ultimate goal here: find out which PC is "toughest" so he can enter that PC in a fighting match and bet on the outcome. The dragon likes to gamble but it's hedging its bets.

Yes, I did in fact just watch a boxing movie. :)

Anyway, I think there's some nice potential there for drama, but it's also a bunch of fun combat of a type that doesn't normally get to happen, capped by a 1:1 fight with an enemy champion.

[Ronnocius]

Thanks for the ideas everyone. Assuming they fail, I am not necessarily thinking the dragon will take kindly to an attack on him - the apparent ringleaders of the betrayal will be slain, any who do not betray him are free to do as they wish, and the others who try to kill him will have their fates dependent on whether they can convince him to give them mercy.

[Erys]

In the game I am currently DMing, my mixed group of level 2's and level 3's want to slay a young red dragon they met previously, whom I expected them to actually negotiate with.

The party is:
- lvl 3 wood elf rogue (scout)
- lvl 3 dragonborn draconic sorcerer
- lvl 2 half-orc barbarian
- lvl 2 lightfoot halfling ranger
- lvl 2 half-elf bard

There are a few more players, but they will probably not be present for the next game.

The players have met the dragon before. In the first session they were in the stronghold of a fire giant, and the dragon (also a slave) started a prison break which enabled them to escape. After a couple of sessions, they were hired by a baron to investigate why his scout did not report back. The scout had been kidnapped by some kobold minions who the dragon had attracted the service of. The adventurers discovered this pretty quickly and tracked the scout to the dragon's lair, where the kobolds were preparing to eat him. They met the dragon and immediately the dragonborn began acting very aggressively towards him (getting up in his face, insulting him, trying to pet him) so the dragon ordered that they were thrown into his "dungeon" (just a pit further into the lair, as the dragon had only been in control of the lair for a week). The bard convinced the dragon to free them and the scout on the condition that they retrieve a gemstone for him. The group have the gemstone the dragon wants but they are plotting his death.

I want them to be able to make whatever decisions they want in my campaign, so I don't have any problem with them facing off with the dragon. However I also want their choices to matter, so I am not going to bail them out if they do fight the dragon. I have a few concerns though.

For example I do not think all of the players want to fight the dragon, and I do not want the ones who don't want to fight to be caught in the crossfire, so I will have to try and not use his breath weapon (because he also doesn't want to accidentally kill his kobolds). I tried to demonstrate the dragon's power by having him make an attack against a kobold minion (which didn't impress them as it was rolled poorly) and another attack against one of the players when they were annoying the dragon. Some of the players are new, but most of them are not newbies and they should know how strong a dragon, even a young dragon, is.

Does anybody have any ideas about what to do in this situation?

A dragon without their breathe weapon is MUCH easier to defeat. And I don't think a red dragon would care if he cooked a few kobolds that didn't clear the room or actively help him against the PCs.

Past that, as long as you tell the players the proverbial 'are you sure', let the dice fall as they will.

[ATHATH]

Why does he not want to hit his kobolds with his breath weapon? He killed one on a whim because it rolled poorly; what's a few more on the pile for him?

[guachi]

A level 2-3 party versus a by-the-book Young Red Dragon (CR 10) stand almost no chance. If they are that foolhardy try to telegraph somehow that their mission is hopeless. If they continue, kill them.

[stoutstien]

Use the wrymling stats?

[Galithar]

Use the wrymling stats?

Allowing them to kill something that should be known to be much stronger then sets the precedent that it's a no consequences murder hobo campaign. Something I would avoid but some people enjoy the freedom of that. To each his own I suppose.

[stoutstien]

Allowing them to kill something that should be known to be much stronger then sets the precedent that it's a no consequences murder hobo campaign. Something I would avoid but some people enjoy the freedom of that. To each his own I suppose.
Agreed. Still possibility a deadly encounter with minions at that lv and it would drag out the Carnage for a few rounds at least

[Galithar]

Agreed. Still possibility a deadly encounter with minions at that lv and it would drag out the Carnage for a few rounds at least

Yes I suppose it would depend on the number of minions and their type. Not all Kobolds are created equal after all! Some have wings!!

[SirGraystone]

I would start with a warning on how powerful a dragon is, like having the dragon grabs a chest full of coins, throwing it in a cave wall 20 feet away, and the chest burst open throws coins all over the floor. On the breath, while a dragon may try to spare kobolds not enough to risk its own life, so I wouldn't start with the breath weapon but when the dragon is down to half its hp, I would breath on any players who are bunch together.

[opticalshadow]

Agreed. Still possibility a deadly encounter with minions at that lv and it would drag out the Carnage for a few rounds at least

And it should be, they need to understand that the sword is not the best way to resolve things, even if thats how they feel. Running away is a tactic, diplomacy is a tactic, fighting is a tactic, but not everyone of those tactics is always the best, and right now, fighting is not what they need to be doing.

and if they want to fight, do not pull a punch, do not go easy on them, do not take an action that would go against the dragons rp. But do give them ample time and warnign to understand what they are doing.

When i DM'd a Curse of Strahd game, i had a group who when the town got invaded by Strahd and the chuch entered (they failed to deal with bones) they decided enough was enough, and launched a full round against him, to which he turned, healed nearly every hitpoint grinned and mocked their weakness, and were told to run along for now. they launched another round, and he laughed at them and tossed a fireball, and brought them all to their knees at deaths gate, and had them run, the wizard stayed, and wound up getting charmed, and Strahd had him kill the priest as the others listend from outside.

He knows they are no real threat, and he still wants them around, it would be his character to let them know this, so he gave them a first round warning (dm wise, this is now their first big warning this is a bad idea on top of all the stuff they have been hearing about him) then they attack again, and again they watch their damage nearly all heal up, he responds with a spell that isnt his strongest, and done in a way that made it seem as if he put no effort into it, swatting a gnat with a direct threat on thier lives if they dont run (final warning from dm, this will go badly for you) third attack from wizard, i fail forward, Strahd wouldnt kill him, he wants to break him, make him murder the father and burn down the church, teach him a lesson on who is the stronger mind, make him know hes worthless, strahd wouldnt kill him.

Same with your dragon, Hes a dragon, he knows where he stands, he knows where the kobolds stand, and he knows that party stands among the kobolds. They attack, make him incredibly clear that on a long list of bad ideas that led them here, following throgh with this is their worst, surrender now and have him lash out a bit, rough them up. If he was going to negotiate before have him issue demands, if he wants nothing, im sorry but a dragon would not stand for this disrespect, even a young one, and he will go for the kill.

If he does want something, he reiterates their futility, and in his next attack try to down a character and a kobold, have him declare they are all pathetic vermin in the company of true draconic nobility, they are his lessers, and they will fall before him, surrender, or die. at this point they can flea, he keeps the downed character as a bargaining chip. if they continue the attack, he is done with their insolence, and goes for the kill, no surrender, they must be taught respect.

Fail Forward, once they are all downed, those still technically alive will awake, the dragon wants something, invent something if he wanted nothing, not to take pity on them, but so you avoid having to start a new campaign. the dragon allows one of the living to act as a speaker for the others, and they will agree to its demands, or the party members friends are killed one by one until they do. This is you saying, you guys failed, heres how we keep going. This also lets you set the dragon up to grow with the party, become a secondary BBEG, something for them to have to deal with periodically, something that is part of their story. maybe a powerful ally in a time of desperation, or perhaps he becomes a target of the bigger BBEG, who is well aware of their history with the dragon, and wants to make an example to the party that he is in control.

[Kadesh]

I don't like using Dragons that are not majestic. Killing child or young dragons seems bit 'meh'. You don't fight a mini pit fiend, you fight a Bearded Devil then a Cornugon and then a Pit Fiend. Different monsters, different escalations, gives a hierarchy of threat.

Unless you tie in killing of a young dragon to something larger (such as the extinction level event of an angry Spellcasting Ancient Dragon with Earthquake as a spell), I think Drag fights can be a bit of waste of their potential. Personally I try not to take down Dragons until level 15+, when characters are getting nigh artefact level gear to represent hiw tough they are.

At level 2-3, you are killing a newborn calf to a rampaging steroid enhanced 7ft at the shoulder bull. Tell your players 'okay' but you'll have to stick with it.

Have them awaken an ancient evil like that of the 'Reign of fire' film, or when Bilbo wakes Smaug and sets it on Esgaroth, and then adventure to get strong enough to beat it.

[Sigreid]

You could also allow an Int or Wis check for one of the party to realize that this is a young dragon and young dragon's have mamas. An she may not be a helicopter mom she's likely to hear of what happened and then they may have a adult or even ancient dragon gunning for them.

[furby076]

Oh, I just had another idea:

Once the dragon knocks them all unconscious, they awake in a gladiatorial arena, naked and without gear but at full HP (long rest). They're supposed to fight until only one of them is standing--if they refuse to fight each other, kobold archers will start picking them off anyway until only one is standing. (You may get some nice player interaction there with some players knocking each other out and others protecting friends from the kobold archers.) The dragon's ultimate goal here: find out which PC is "toughest" so he can enter that PC in a fighting match and bet on the outcome. The dragon likes to gamble but it's hedging its bets.

Yes, I did in fact just watch a boxing movie. :)

Anyway, I think there's some nice potential there for drama, but it's also a bunch of fun combat of a type that doesn't normally get to happen, capped by a 1:1 fight with an enemy champion.

id let them fight each other with their gear. Monks, sorcerers, wizards and clerics can rely on spells. Letting them fight vs a naked fighter = dead fighter.

As a LAST out, while in the arena, if they get a high DC perception check thehy can find a backdoor out. But i'd make it DC 25, as that is a near impossibility for them to see.

[Sigreid]

Another version of what I proposed earlier goes like this: "Still want to kill the dragon? Cool! I've always wanted to run a TPK."

[Finback]

Unless you tie in killing of a young dragon to something larger (such as the extinction level event of an angry Spellcasting Ancient Dragon with Earthquake as a spell), I think Drag fights can be a bit of waste of their potential. Personally I try not to take down Dragons until level 15+, when characters are getting nigh artefact level gear to represent hiw tough they are.

At level 2-3, you are killing a newborn calf to a rampaging steroid enhanced 7ft at the shoulder bull. Tell your players 'okay' but you'll have to stick with it.

I'm going to recommend OP show his players this film (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgo_(film)).

[Magzimum]

In the game I am currently DMing, my mixed group of level 2's and level 3's want to slay a young red dragon they met previously, whom I expected them to actually negotiate with.

The party is:
- lvl 3 wood elf rogue (scout)
- lvl 3 dragonborn draconic sorcerer
- lvl 2 half-orc barbarian
- lvl 2 lightfoot halfling ranger
- lvl 2 half-elf bard

There are a few more players, but they will probably not be present for the next game.

The players have met the dragon before. In the first session they were in the stronghold of a fire giant, and the dragon (also a slave) started a prison break which enabled them to escape. After a couple of sessions, they were hired by a baron to investigate why his scout did not report back. The scout had been kidnapped by some kobold minions who the dragon had attracted the service of. The adventurers discovered this pretty quickly and tracked the scout to the dragon's lair, where the kobolds were preparing to eat him. They met the dragon and immediately the dragonborn began acting very aggressively towards him (getting up in his face, insulting him, trying to pet him) so the dragon ordered that they were thrown into his "dungeon" (just a pit further into the lair, as the dragon had only been in control of the lair for a week). The bard convinced the dragon to free them and the scout on the condition that they retrieve a gemstone for him. The group have the gemstone the dragon wants but they are plotting his death.

I want them to be able to make whatever decisions they want in my campaign, so I don't have any problem with them facing off with the dragon. However I also want their choices to matter, so I am not going to bail them out if they do fight the dragon. I have a few concerns though.

For example I do not think all of the players want to fight the dragon, and I do not want the ones who don't want to fight to be caught in the crossfire, so I will have to try and not use his breath weapon (because he also doesn't want to accidentally kill his kobolds). I tried to demonstrate the dragon's power by having him make an attack against a kobold minion (which didn't impress them as it was rolled poorly) and another attack against one of the players when they were annoying the dragon. Some of the players are new, but most of them are not newbies and they should know how strong a dragon, even a young dragon, is.

Does anybody have any ideas about what to do in this situation?

What you should have done (in my opinion)
It sounds to me that your Dragonborn is acting like a typical Murderhobo. I also DM a group of 5 murderhobos, and if one of them would pull such a stunt, I would reply with "the dragon appears focussed only on the dragonborn, but everybody roll initiative", and have the dragon punish that dragonborn right there and then for insulting him in his own lair. Then leave the unconscious body, and tell the other players to clean up the mess (meaning that unconscious body of the dragonborn) and never come back.

What you can do now
Firstly, have a session 0.2. Explain that your expectations are that players will roleplay. Explain that this is not a hack-and-slash game where players can (safely) attack everything they encounter.
Also, allow the players to talk (as players, out of character) among themselves. Sometimes a few extroverted players can take too many decisions out of sheer enthusiasm. Giving the more introverted players a chance to speak up can resolve a lot of tension.

If this is explained, if the players are all on the same boat again, and they still insist that they want to attack that dragon, then you have broadly speaking 3 choices:
1. Find an ally for your players, and with the extra help, kill the dragon.
2. Let the dragon kill the players, steal their gear. (Optionally: find a surprise healer who saves them - but if you do that, the players now have a nemesis, and killing that dragon will be the main quest of your campaign).
3. Let the dragon remember that one or two characters were particularly insulting. Use the kobolds to pin down the party, and let the dragon (try to) grapple one of them during the fight and fly off. Then kill this character privately, somewhere high up on a cliff. In my opinion, this is what an intelligent chaotic-evil creature would do.

[Arzanyos]

I'd say, when the roll up to the dragon cave again, if they attack it, have it explain ask, do you really want to do this? This ask your players that IRL. Have them talk it out. If they all do, have the dragon explain that they will get wrecked if they try and fight it right here right now. Have it offer to let them leave(without the gem) and come back and fight when they're worthy. If they insist that they don't need to get stronger, that they can take it, right here, right now, wreck them. To death. Don't feel bad about it, because you will have made well and sure they knew what they were getting into.

[KorvinStarmast]

Oh, I just had another idea: {snip great idea} Love it!

For the OP: Give 'em Enough Rope.
If they can find a way to outsmart this dragon and slay it, good on them, but Pull No Punches! This dragon has the following stats.
STR 23 (+6) DEX 10 (+0) CON 21 (+5) INT 14 (+2) WIS 11 (+0) CHA 19 (+4)
Its Passive Perception is 18.
It is smarter than everyone except the party Wizard. Oh, wait, there is no Wizard.
- lvl 3 wood elf rogue (scout); lvl 3 dragonborn draconic sorcerer; lvl 2 half-orc barbarian; lvl 2 lightfoot halfling ranger; lvl 2 half-elf bard
Did this party all dump Int during character creation? :smallbiggrin: Any of them making aracana, nature, or other Int based ability checks regarding the lethality of a red dragon?

Breath Weapon: Each creature in that area must make a DC 17 Dexterity saving throw, taking 56 (16d6) fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
Which PC has 28 or more HP?

-----------------------------------

And as noted earlier, make sure they arrive at the session with a back up character sheet, each.

If you do end up with a TPK, I'd suggest taking all of the character sheets and setting them on fire (on the back porch in the grill, not in the room where you are playing) to illustrate the death by dragon breath problem.

Or, as Max suggests, toy with them.

[tieren]

There's a young green dragon in the starter set the characters are meant to encounter around levels 3-4. The dragon leaves if they get half its hit points down.

I would drop a hook that nearby is the tomb of an ancient king who legend says owned a suit of dragon scale armor and a spear of dragon slaying.

Have them do a dungeon delve, choose to put what ever items in it you want, but by the time they come out they should at least all be level 3 and better suited to make the attempt.

[Millface]

So, if I were presented with this dilemma, I would probably do exactly this: They arrive at the dragon's lair to find it completely devastated and looted bare. While they were out plotting and retrieving the gemstone, the dragon and his minions were attacked by another young dragon's cohorts and routed. The young blue that ordered the attack had been jealous of the growing power of this red, and had been plotting the attack for some time. You can use another faction/force if you want to nix the dragon idea altogether, anything that can be a hook for further adventure or investigation would serve the same purpose. They might decide they want to go after the blue in this instance, but now you have time. They don't find whatever is responsible until you tell them they do, and I would dole out information at whatever pace I need to, inserting more hooks and quests along the way to make sure that by the time they reach this encounter they'll be strong enough to have a fighting chance.

After that, I would keep my encounters manageable for them. If the majority of your players enjoy solving problems by bashing those problems, that's their prerogative, and IMO a DM's job is to generate scenarios in which your unique players can have the experience they show up for. Some encounters can still be hard to encourage them to try different tactics, but if I know they're going to try to kill any monster or evil that they talk to, I'd always make it possible for them to do so if I can. If that's how they want to play, I'd let them play that way.

Answers to this along the lines of "that's not how the world works, TPK them if they want to be murderhobos" or "Teach them a lesson, then" are silly to me. These aren't children that need to be taught how to behave, they're (presumably) adults that are using their free time on a game that they enjoy for their own reasons.

If your party is split in how they want to handle encounters that's on them to make those decisions in character, you only need to step in if players start getting angry with each other in the real world to remind them that this is a roleplaying game and that have to be able to separate Dave's Tiefling from Dave the person. If you have a player that actively disrupts everyone else's fun because they want to channel all the douchebaggery that they have stored inside in your fake world because they can't in the real world, kick that player out of your game without hesitation. Alternatively, if you have 6 murderhobos who channel all their frustration from the work day into being dickbags to NPCs at the table and one player who wants a more genuine experience, you're going to have to tell that player that this game may not be for them. I have good friends that I've had to ask to leave my campaigns before because what they wanted from the game was counter to what everyone else wanted, they'll get over it. DMing is hard, you have to weigh everyone's fun, and sometimes, unfortunately, you won't be able to make everyone happy.

TL;DR the worst thing you can do as a DM is try to force players to play the game the way you think it should be played.

[KorvinStarmast]

Answers to this along the lines of "that's not how the world works, TPK them if they want to be murderhobos" or "Teach them a lesson, then" are silly to me. These aren't children that need to be taught how to behave, they're (presumably) adults that are using their free time on a game that they enjoy for their own reasons. Maybe, and maybe not. The OP did not provide this kind of information, so we really don't know any of that.
I like your idea on the blue dragon kill stealing: it presents a new problem to solve.

[Sigreid]

There's a young green dragon in the starter set the characters are meant to encounter around levels 3-4. The dragon leaves if they get half its hit points down.

I would drop a hook that nearby is the tomb of an ancient king who legend says owned a suit of dragon scale armor and a spear of dragon slaying.

Have them do a dungeon delve, choose to put what ever items in it you want, but by the time they come out they should at least all be level 3 and better suited to make the attempt.

Yeah, I wouldn't do this unless it occurs to them to do some research about how to defeat a dragon. I certainly wouldn't spoon feed them a chance.

[Millface]

Maybe, and maybe not. The OP did not provide this kind of information, so we really don't know any of that.
I like your idea on the blue dragon kill stealing: it presents a new problem to solve.

When the universe is yours, there's really not many situations you can't get out of! Especially since they didn't just attack the dragon on sight. The party leaving for a while opens up all kinds of doors for a DM to gently steer the situation into safer territory. If they'd attacked on the spot, that's when you're in a corner. You either let them die or you have to slam down the DM Stick with some dues ex machina. I'd still prefer the latter more often than not, though, if I absolutely have to pick.

Individual players can die, but TPKs generally aren't fun for anybody.

[Pelle]

Maybe, and maybe not. The OP did not provide this kind of information, so we really don't know any of that.


Yeah, this is usually session zero material. Do the players prefer the DM to establish a world, and let the player actions have natural consequences, or do the players prefer the DM to improvise reasons for the characters to always face appropriate encounters, or at least survive?



Individual players can die, but TPKs generally aren't fun for anybody.

If the players were fully aware, and made an informed decision to risk an uneccessary TPK, it doesn't have to be unfun for the players. If they do, it is a sign that they don't really care that much about the characters. It's usually more unfun for the DM who has prepped the setting, and wants the game to continue.

[Millface]

If the players were fully aware, and made an informed decision to risk an uneccessary TPK, it doesn't have to be unfun for the players. If they do, it is a sign that they don't really care that much about the characters. It's usually more unfun for the DM who has prepped the setting, and wants the game to continue.

Fair enough. If I were to run a campaign were I wouldn't intervene in some way if a TPK was imminent I would have my players sign a waiver (metaphorically) making sure they knew that's what they were getting into, but if that understanding was there it's fine, because that's what the players want and you can be sure that's what they find fun. We played this way for ToA, since my table is full of veterans we decided it would be fun to go full out with the difficulty and see if they could complete it. We agreed to play until the module was done or they TPK'd, whichever came first. (They did manage to beat it by the skin of their teeth. Four character deaths, but not all at once. Including fighting Acerak at the end.)

My default during a surefire TPK scenario though is to let the dice fall where they may for the first two deaths or so, then intervene in a way that makes sense for the situation to stop the TPK. It keeps the consequences alive, as the players don't know which of them will die, without derailing the entire campaign for everyone. If the majority of the PCs come out of it they can find new companions and continue on. If they're facing a TPK at every turn, however, that's something to be looked at, starting with the DM.

[Sigreid]

If they're facing a TPK at every turn, however, that's something to be looked at, starting with the DM.

DM shouldn't be looking to TPK, but in this instance it's the party choosing a very likely TPK. No one is railroading or tricking them into it, so they deserve whatever the fates have in store for them.

[Millface]

DM shouldn't be looking to TPK, but in this instance it's the party choosing a very likely TPK. No one is railroading or tricking them into it, so they deserve whatever the fates have in store for them.

I see the logic there, I just handle it differently. If my table had the most fun bashing everything evil that they talked to I wouldn't design encounters where they had no feasible way of doing that. I design my games around my players and what they find the most fun. It's their time, and I value it. My players like the realism you're talking about, so on the very, very rare occasion that they make a blunder that badly I let it play out how it should, but every table is different, and the DMs job isn't to "teach them a lesson", so to speak. If you have murder hobos, let them murder hobo. They don't come to D&D to be punished, told no, or told to play counter to what they enjoy the most.

In the case of rogue players who run counter to the rest of the party, I've covered my view on that in another post :smallsmile:

[Sigreid]

I see the logic there, I just handle it differently. If my table had the most fun bashing everything evil that they talked to I wouldn't design encounters where they had no feasible way of doing that. I design my games around my players and what they find the most fun. It's their time, and I value it. My players like the realism you're talking about, so on the very, very rare occasion that they make a blunder that badly I let it play out how it should, but every table is different, and the DMs job isn't to "teach them a lesson", so to speak. If you have murder hobos, let them murder hobo. They don't come to D&D to be punished, told no, or told to play counter to what they enjoy the most.

In the case of rogue players who run counter to the rest of the party, I've covered my view on that in another post :smallsmile:

I think we just have a small perspective difference is all. If my players take on what is for them a wildly over powered opponent and win, I want them to get all the gratifications out of it. That can't happen if they know or suspect I had my thumb on the scale for them.

[Ronnocius]

The confusing thing is that there are some murderhobos (rogue and half-orc) but the dragonborn is more of a roleplayer. He has a hatred of red dragons from his backstory.

I am going to have the dragon packing up, ready to leave because there is increased activity in the mountain passes (foreshadowing a barbarian invasion that will occur soon) and he is going to try tracking down his parents. The most bizarre thing is that I thought the players would want to get revenge on the giant who enslaved them (and who also enslaved the giant) and thus would ally with the dragon or at least remain on neutral terms. I honestly do not think there is much justification for them disliking the dragon, he was portrayed as slightly arrogant but not particularly rude.

I have asked anyone who is fighting the dragon to bring a replacement character, and I have prepared a fight just in case any decide to go through with it.

[MilkmanDanimal]

I would probably give a very overt Nature or Survival check or something with a low DC, and inform anyone who passed one of those "In your experience, even a young red dragon is extremely dangerous, and you are almost absolutely sure you will die horribly if you try this" kind of in-game things.

Then, if they tried to attack it, they would die horribly. This is very much the kind of bad idea players should learn from.

[Millface]

I think we just have a small perspective difference is all. If my players take on what is for them a wildly over powered opponent and win, I want them to get all the gratifications out of it. That can't happen if they know or suspect I had my thumb on the scale for them.

That's a good point, and there's certainly a fine line between making the game too easy so that it's not gratifying, and being too harsh or punishing of the way your players want to play. If your players need to die horribly a couple times so that they don't suspect you're altering encounters or fudging rolls or whatever, then that's a bit of a different situation.

If I fudge anything, they never know about it. If an encounter has an interruption that works in their benefit, they assume I planned it that way from the start, whether I did or not.

Letting some players die in situations like that, in my experience, is enough to let them know you're not pulling punches and that a victory in a situation like that is worth being proud of. I haven't seen the need to allow a TPK, but I'm sure there are players where that's not the case.

If your table is having fun, all's good in my opinion!

[Sigreid]

That's a good point, and there's certainly a fine line between making the game too easy so that it's not gratifying, and being too harsh or punishing of the way your players want to play. If your players need to die horribly a couple times so that they don't suspect you're altering encounters or fudging rolls or whatever, then that's a bit of a different situation.

If I fudge anything, they never know about it. If an encounter has an interruption that works in their benefit, they assume I planned it that way from the start, whether I did or not.

Letting some players die in situations like that, in my experience, is enough to let them know you're not pulling punches and that a victory in a situation like that is worth being proud of. I haven't seen the need to allow a TPK, but I'm sure there are players where that's not the case.

If your table is having fun, all's good in my opinion!

In CoS just this weekend I told the players up front that we may need a whole new party in the first 10 minutes. Then let them do what they wanted. 😁

[dmteeter]

Let them fight it.

"If they die, they die" (in my best Ivan Drago voice).

[druid91]

A level 2-3 party versus a by-the-book Young Red Dragon (CR 10) stand almost no chance. If they are that foolhardy try to telegraph somehow that their mission is hopeless. If they continue, kill them.

Depends on their tactics.

[Kadesh]

Depends on their tactics.

Please provide examples. A CR7 Young Black wipes the floor with a 4th level party in Forge of Fury. Why would a weaker party fair better a against a more dangerous foe?

[Millface]

I had a 4th level party kill a young white dragon once, but it was close, and I've never in my life seen so many 20s on the other side of the table.

The Monk mounted it and I kid you not, crit 3 times in a row.

three of them went down, and without 5 crits of nova in the first 2 rounds it wouldn't have even been close.

[druid91]

Please provide examples. A CR7 Young Black wipes the floor with a 4th level party in Forge of Fury. Why would a weaker party fair better a against a more dangerous foe?

Because I would go so far as to say that with the right tactics, a party of level ones could probably win.

A character on a warhorse moves 120ft per round. Well beyond the dragons movement rate. You keep at a distance, riddling them with long range attack cantrips, spells, and arrows and such. Open up the conflict by taunting the dragon, (Reds are notorious for their foul tempers and thin skins.) Then lure it out into the open where you can pelt it with ranged attacks. Eventually it will give up and flee. Have a mage with the move Earth cantrip and possibly craft carpentry or masonry prepare boltholes and getaways you can use to frustrate the dragons pursuit in case it manages to pull a fast one. Have someone with skill as a siege engineer set up a ballista and use these 'pathetic monkeys and their arrows.' to lure the dragon right into the line of fire.

Certainly a risky endeavor. If the dragon gets into melee or breath weapon range of someone and still has an action you are basically dead. But with a maximum threatened distance of 110 feet on any given round, you are safe, if only by a thin margin.

[Kadesh]

Because I would go so far as to say that with the right tactics, a party of level ones could probably win.
Reheheheally?


A character on a warhorse moves 120ft per round. Well beyond the dragons movement rate.
You assume you are outside, during the day?

Also, it can move 80ft, hold action dash until it sees where your horse ends its move. Within 2 turns it has you chased down and no save charred death.

[druid91]

Reheheheally?


You assume you are outside, during the day?

Also, it can move 80ft, hold action dash until it sees where your horse ends its move. Within 2 turns it has you chased down and no save charred death.

Breath weapon is an action. It can either dash or attack. It moves within range. You move out of range.

And yes. Because you'll be hidden underground at night. You choose your staging ground like not idiots. The dragon knows it's more powerful than you, and has no particular reason to be careful. And is of a breed known for its arrogance and pride.

[Kadesh]

Breath weapon is an action. It can either dash or attack. It moves within range. You move out of range.

And yes. Because you'll be hidden underground at night. You choose your staging ground like not idiots. The dragon knows it's more powerful than you, and has no particular reason to be careful. And is of a breed known for its arrogance and pride.

Breath attack is an action, sure, so what?. Your horse has to dash to maintain its speed. You get to make a +5 attack roll to make an AC18 170odd HP dragon take 7.5 damage.

You move 120, it moves 160. When it gets to a stage when it it is ahead of you, it uses it action to move to around 40ft of you, holds its action to dash in the same direction your horse goes after, then moves 80 and flames.

I like how you say you don't camp above ground, when a dragon is capable of sneaking up on you (average 14 stealth vs average passive perception of 12 on Wild Elf Rogue), and don't have the means to observe it should you have extended vision.

Why does Arrogance not mean intelligent? You can't escape it during,the day, camp in favourable terrain for it. It is vengeful, so if you slight it, it will hunt you down and kill you - possibly even get its slaves to do it for it.

[druid91]

Breath attack is an action, sure, so what?. Your horse has to dash to maintain its speed. You get to make a +5 attack roll to make an AC18 170odd HP dragon take 7.5 damage.

You move 120, it moves 160. When it gets to a stage when it it is ahead of you, it uses it action to move to around 40ft of you, holds its action to dash in the same direction your horse goes after, then moves 80 and flames.

I like how you say you don't camp above ground, when a dragon is capable of sneaking up on you (average 14 stealth vs average passive perception of 12 on Wild Elf Rogue), and don't have the means to observe it should you have extended vision.

Why does Arrogance not mean intelligent? You can't escape it during,the day, camp in favourable terrain for it. It is vengeful, so if you slight it, it will hunt you down and kill you - possibly even get its slaves to do it for it.

A.) You can't hold actions in 5e. You can ready, which costs your action and your reaction. And in this case would net you the same result as just acting.

B.) It's never 'ahead' of you. You move away from the dragon. Your statement not only doesn't work but also robs the dragon of its only means of doing damage. Opportunity Attacks. In order to move within attack range it must use the dash action. Meaning it's only hope to do damage on any given round is to move within melee range and hope for an opportunity attack.

This is a dragon. Not an assassin. Did Smaug hide from Laketown despite some remote chance they could maybe kill him?

And It's not dumb just because it's arrogant. It's dumb because it has a wisdom of 11. Aka about the same as a wizened peasant.

[Friv]

This is a dragon. Not an assassin. Did Smaug hide from Laketown despite some remote chance they could maybe kill him?

Smaug had sufficient armour that no one could injure him, and whenever someone tried he just roasted them to death.

Dragons might be angry, but they're not dumb. If it's impossible for them to catch an enemy who can pepper them to death, they will climb into the clouds above bowshot range, follow you until the horse gets tired, and then divebomb you.

[Millface]

Smaug had sufficient armour that no one could injure him, and whenever someone tried he just roasted them to death.

Dragons might be angry, but they're not dumb. If it's impossible for them to catch an enemy who can pepper them to death, they will climb into the clouds above bowshot range, follow you until the horse gets tired, and then divebomb you.

I'm with you on this one. Dragon's are crafty, yo.

[Kadesh]

A.) You can't hold actions in 5e. You can ready, which costs your action and your reaction. And in this case would net you the same result as just acting.
Why would it net the same result? You are within 40ft at thebend of the turn, you can now move 120ft in any direction. The Readied Dash allows it to keep pace, by using its following turn to move within Breath Range.


B.) It's never 'ahead' of you. You move away from the dragon. Your statement not only doesn't work but also robs the dragon of its only means of doing damage. Opportunity Attacks. In order to move within attack range it must use the dash action. Meaning it's only hope to do damage on any given round is to move within melee range and hope for an opportunity attack.
What opportunity attacks at 30ft agl? It can move 160ft a turn, so it can easily get ahead of you then uses ready dash.


This is a dragon. Not an assassin. Did Smaug hide from Laketown despite some remote chance they could maybe kill him?
Smaug was an Ancient Great Wyrm, ithban AC of around 25, likely immune to Crits, and a Magic Arrow of Slaying that ignored his Crit Immunty was what killed him.


And It's not dumb just because it's arrogant. It's dumb because it has a wisdom of 11. Aka about the same as a wizened peasant.

A 14 Intelligence is dumb? Wisdom relates to perception, insight etc skill checks. Investigation I.e, deduction, is an intelligence skill.

If you think a group of level 1's could handle a dragon, you've had them handled very badly.

[druid91]

Why would it net the same result? You are within 40ft at thebend of the turn, you can now move 120ft in any direction. The Readied Dash allows it to keep pace, by using its following turn to move within Breath Range.


What opportunity attacks at 30ft agl? It can move 160ft a turn, so it can easily get ahead of you then uses ready dash.


Smaug was an Ancient Great Wyrm, ithban AC of around 25, likely immune to Crits, and a Magic Arrow of Slaying that ignored his Crit Immunty was what killed him.



A 14 Intelligence is dumb? Wisdom relates to perception, insight etc skill checks. Investigation I.e, deduction, is an intelligence skill.

If you think a group of level 1's could handle a dragon, you've had them handled very badly.

... That's not how that works.

Turn 1. The Dragon is directly above you, 30 feet away. Within Breath Weapon Range. You move 120 feet North. The dragon now has to move to follow if it wants to do you harm. It Moves 80 feet, and then readies an action to follow you. Round ends. It's readied action is lost because the round is now over and you did not move after it during that combat round. Readied actions do not jank up the initiative order in 5e and that's deliberate on the part of the designers.

And if they move out of bowshot range, they are well out of threat range and you are perfectly able to walk away yourself. As we already determined, you already outpace them.

There's also any number of tools, such as command. A first level spell that your young dragon has to roll at least an 11 to pass the save on. Not particularly bad odds. Neh? And if it fails, it drops prone, smashes into the ground taking damage, but it also loses half it's movement and the remainder of it's turn.

Or nets! "I ready an action so that if the dragon get's close to me I throw a net at it!" It's restrained until it's next turn, when it can take an action to try and escape the net. Because it's a Large or Smaller creature.

Adult and Ancient Dragons are terrifying beasts of Legend. Young Dragons are threats, but not that bad of threats. Their Dex is terrible, so they're utterly reliant upon good rolls for initiative.

This only get's exponentially worse when talking about 3rd level characters, not 1st level characters.

[Galithar]

Readied actions can be taken until the beginning of your next turn. So if you move at all before then it can follow you.

Assuming you want to rule that readied actions end at the end of the round preventing low iniative people from readying actions at all... (Lame) then this is how it happens:

Say you start 40 ft from the dragon. You shoot, move your full 120. You are 160 feet away. Dragon took like 7 damage assuming you hit.
The dragon dashes and flys it's full 160 feet to be right next to you. And ends it's turn.
You move 120 feet away on your next turn but the dragon uses it's AoO to attack you, you take 20 damage and die because you're level 1.
OR you choose not to provoke by having your horse disengage and the dragon moves easily to close the 60 foot gap and kills you with a breath or multi-attack.

Either way if you kill a Young Red Dragon with level ones without using NPCs or an insanely large party where half of them or more die then your DM doesn't know how to play a dragon...


Also command would only make them do an action not plummet from the sky and take damage.

"The spell has no effect if the target is undead, if it doesn't understand your language, or if your command is directly harmful to it."

Therefore if you command it to drop prone midflight it will either, gently land and lay down, or ignore the spell entirely.


As for the net, it's breath has a range of 30 your net a range of ten. Best case scenario you exchange being able to attack for a small chance of distracting it for a single turn at which point it becomes smart enough to not fly near the guy with the net and to roast him from a distance.

I'd be more than happy to play this it with you though. You can control 6 level 1 characters with riding horses and I'll control a single young red dragon and see who wins :P

[druid91]

Readied actions can be taken until the beginning of your next turn. So if you move at all before then it can follow you.

Assuming you want to rule that readied actions end at the end of the round preventing low iniative people from readying actions at all... (Lame) then this is how it happens:

Say you start 40 ft from the dragon. You shoot, move your full 120. You are 160 feet away. Dragon took like 7 damage assuming you hit.
The dragon dashes and flys it's full 160 feet to be right next to you. And ends it's turn.
You move 120 feet away on your next turn but the dragon uses it's AoO to attack you, you take 20 damage and die because you're level 1.
OR you choose not to provoke by having your horse disengage and the dragon moves easily to close the 60 foot gap and kills you with a breath or multi-attack.

Either way if you kill a Young Red Dragon with level ones without using NPCs or an insanely large party where half of them or more die then your DM doesn't know how to play a dragon...


Also command would only make them do an action not plummet from the sky and take damage.

"The spell has no effect if the target is undead, if it doesn't understand your language, or if your command is directly harmful to it."

Therefore if you command it to drop prone midflight it will either, gently land and lay down, or ignore the spell entirely.

True true, on the command. So you can't use it to drop it from the sky. You can however use Nets to bring it down which is even more of a pain than command. It goes after Player A. Player A readies an action to throw a net at it. It gets within fifteen feet, gets hit with a net and drops to earth. Sure it uses it's action to immediately break the net. But then player B hits it with another net so it's stuck again. Meanwhile, players C and D, and E wheel out the Ballista and start nailing that dragon to the dirt.

It's risky. It can go wrong. But it could also work. And there's relatively little the dragon can do to stop it.

Also, a fun offer, but having laid out the entire plan, I'd still wager my money on the dragon. I'd just say that the level ones have a chance at victory. Not a particularly good one. But a chance.

For example. the plan entirely falls apart if the initial net-thrower rolls poorly and gets ripped apart.

[Galithar]

It doesn't have to do anything to stop it. Assuming a hit bonus of 6 (18 Dex) you h have to roll a 12 to hit it.
Additionally when my dragon drops under your net it's action will not be too break it, it will be too roast you because you're within 30 feet of it. Save or not you're dead.


If it TECHNICALLY possible, yes. Is it ever going to work in practice? I highly doubt it.

[druid91]

It doesn't have to do anything to stop it. Assuming a hit bonus of 6 (18 Dex) you h have to roll a 12 to hit it.
Additionally when my dragon drops under your net it's action will not be too break it, it will be too roast you because you're within 30 feet of it. Save or not you're dead.


If it TECHNICALLY possible, yes. Is it ever going to work in practice? I highly doubt it.

Eh? It won't HAVE an action. It will have spent it trying to get into melee range for the opportunity attacks. Also, heck no it's never going to work in practice. Have you ever tried getting a team of PC's to stick to a plan? :smallwink:

Heck, we had a thing where I was DMing, the party was 100% safe. They were facing a dangerous melee opponent from range, with no convenient way to get to them. They started bombing him with spells and arrows and such......

And then one of them said "I extend the bridge so I can go fight him in melee!"

So many of them died.... So many.

[Galithar]

Eh? It won't HAVE an action. It will have spent it trying to get into melee range for the opportunity attacks. Also, heck no it's never going to work in practice. Have you ever tried getting a team of PC's to stick to a plan? :smallwink:

Heck, we had a thing where I was DMing, the party was 100% safe. They were facing a dangerous melee opponent from range, with no convenient way to get to them. They started bombing him with spells and arrows and such......

And then one of them said "I extend the bridge so I can go fight him in melee!"

So many of them died.... So many.

If it wasn't close enough to get to you without dashing it would hold action dash, or dash and stay 30 feet above you.

Also you're operating on the assumption of all players having won initiative... Not gonna happen, someone is rolling low and dying turn one lol.

[Jaelommiss]

Eh? It won't HAVE an action. It will have spent it trying to get into melee range for the opportunity attacks.

This simply isn't true. Let's say that the player goes first and the dragon starts at a range of 120 feet and altitude of 20 feet.


Round 1 - Distance to dragon: 120+20 feet
Player shoots dragon for 7 damage and moves 120 feet (171/178, DTD: 240+20 feet)
Dragon moves and dashes towards player (DTD: 80+20 feet)

Round 2 - DTD: 80+20 feet
Player shoots dragon for 7 damage and moves 120 feet away. (164/178, DTD: 200+20 feet)
Dragon moves and dashes towards player (DTD: 40+20 feet)

Round 3 - DTD: 40+20 feet
Player shoots dragon for 7 damage and moves 120 feet away (157/178, DTD: 160+20 feet)
Dragon moves and dashes towards player (DTD: 0+20 feet)

Round 4 - DTD: 0+20 feet
Player shoots dragon for 7 damage and moves 120 feet away (150/178, DTD: 120+20 feet)
Dragon moves 80 feet towards player and readies Dash to pursue player after it moves (DTD: 40+20 feet)

Round 5 - DTD: 40+20 feet, dragon waiting on readied dash
Player shoots dragon for 7 damage and moves 120 feet away (143/178, DTD: 160+20 feet)
Dragon's readied dash goes off, moving 80 feet toward player (DTD: 80+20 feet)
Dragon's turn starts and it moves towards player (DTD:0+20 feet)
Dragon uses breath weapon. Player dies.

[druid91]

This simply isn't true. Let's say that the player goes first and the dragon starts at a range of 120 feet and altitude of 20 feet.


Round 1 - Distance to dragon: 120+20 feet
Player shoots dragon for 7 damage and moves 120 feet (171/178, DTD: 240+20 feet)
Dragon moves and dashes towards player (DTD: 80+20 feet)

Round 2 - DTD: 80+20 feet
Player shoots dragon for 7 damage and moves 120 feet away. (164/178, DTD: 200+20 feet)
Dragon moves and dashes towards player (DTD: 40+20 feet)

Round 3 - DTD: 40+20 feet
Player shoots dragon for 7 damage and moves 120 feet away (157/178, DTD: 160+20 feet)
Dragon moves and dashes towards player (DTD: 0+20 feet)

Round 4 - DTD: 0+20 feet
Player shoots dragon for 7 damage and moves 120 feet away (150/178, DTD: 120+20 feet)
Dragon moves 80 feet towards player and readies Dash to pursue player after it moves (DTD: 40+20 feet)

Round 5 - DTD: 40+20 feet, dragon waiting on readied dash
Player shoots dragon for 7 damage and moves 120 feet away (143/178, DTD: 160+20 feet)
Dragon's readied dash goes off, moving 80 feet toward player (DTD: 80+20 feet)
Dragon's turn starts and it moves towards player (DTD:0+20 feet)
Dragon uses breath weapon. Player dies.

I'm... honestly not getting why this is so hard to understand. Even with that weird interpretation of Ready.

Round 1: DTD 30 feet. It's 30 feet in the air directly above you. You move 120 feet in ANY direction. DTD is now 120 feet

So. Dragon can do one of two things. Dash RIGHT NOW to get within Melee range of the rider. It can't act immediately, but opportunity attacks can happen when the rider tries to move again, and if they merely disengage, they won't be able to get out of range in the coming turn.

This works. 9/10 this is going to work. In this case it doesn't work because nets. But even so. The dragon probably isn't going to expect that.

OR the dragon can ready an action to move with the horse. Ok. New round. It uses it's movement to move towards the horse. That's the same thing it was going to do ANYWAY. It's movement is spent either way. If you ready action dash, you aquire movement speed for your opponents turn, and it fades before you could actually use it. If you ready action move, you spend your movement speed for the new round and nothing gets accomplished.

One works (Usually.). The other does not.

Basically, this seems like something of a gross misuse of Ready.

[Galithar]

Actually it's more of you not understanding how it works than any form of misuse. The point of the ready action is to do something that needs immediate effect which that move does if the dragon wants to be able to be in range of you with it's breath weapon on it's turn while having an available action.

Turn 1 you move to 120 feet from dragon.
Dragon moves 80 fly closer to you and readied a dash to move if you do. (The reason for this is because it's move speed exceeds yours, it could move up to you, but if like any good Dragon it wants to open with it's breath weapon it needs to be in range with an action available).
Turn 2 you move another 120 making the total 160.
The dragon's readied action triggers moving it 80 feet closer to you. The distance is not 80 feet.
The dragon uses it's move to go another 80 feet, ending 30 feet directly above you. It yes it's breath weapon.


How is this difficult to grasp?

"Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it (PBH p72)."

Straight from the rules so there can be no more confusion or thinking this is somehow abusing a ready action, when it is a clearly stated intent of the action.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Actually it's more of you not understanding how it works than any form of misuse. The point of the ready action is to do something that needs immediate effect which that move does if the dragon wants to be able to be in range of you with it's breath weapon on it's turn while having an available action.

Turn 1 you move to 120 feet from dragon.
Dragon moves 80 fly closer to you and readied a dash to move if you do. (The reason for this is because it's move speed exceeds yours, it could move up to you, but if like any good Dragon it wants to open with it's breath weapon it needs to be in range with an action available).
Turn 2 you move another 120 making the total 160.
The dragon's readied action triggers moving it 80 feet closer to you. The distance is not 80 feet.
The dragon uses it's move to go another 80 feet, ending 30 feet directly above you. It yes it's breath weapon.


How is this difficult to grasp?

"Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it (PBH p72)."

Straight from the rules so there can be no more confusion or thinking this is somehow abusing a ready action, when it is a clearly stated intent of the action.
Yep, the adventurer can only count on the dragons mercy, it's incredibly unlikely that he'll be able to outrun the dragon even on horseback.

This is made even harder when a DM calls for proper animal handling checks for an adventurer who thinks his mount is keen on trying to pick a fight with a dragon.

@Druid91 I think you're focusing too hard on the use of "ready action dash". They're not readying a dash action, it's just that the movement option available to the ready action that's listed above is so mechanically similar to the dash action that it's a lot simpler to label it as such.

[Galithar]

@Druid91 I think you're focusing too hard on the use of "ready action dash". They're not readying a dash action, it's just that the movement option available to the ready action that's listed above is so mechanically similar to the dash action that it's a lot simpler to label it as such.

Yes, very much this. I apologise if that was the only disconnect. My table (and many others from my understanding) refer to a 'ready action move' as 'ready action dash'. While technically it's not the same as a dash action it's a very common colloquialism.

[Jaelommiss]

Actually it's more of you not understanding how it works than any form of misuse. The point of the ready action is to do something that needs immediate effect which that move does if the dragon wants to be able to be in range of you with it's breath weapon on it's turn while having an available action.

Turn 1 you move to 120 feet from dragon.
Dragon moves 80 fly closer to you and readied a dash to move if you do. (The reason for this is because it's move speed exceeds yours, it could move up to you, but if like any good Dragon it wants to open with it's breath weapon it needs to be in range with an action available).
Turn 2 you move another 120 making the total 160.
The dragon's readied action triggers moving it 80 feet closer to you. The distance is not 80 feet.
The dragon uses it's move to go another 80 feet, ending 30 feet directly above you. It yes it's breath weapon.


How is this difficult to grasp?

"Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it (PBH p72)."

Straight from the rules so there can be no more confusion or thinking this is somehow abusing a ready action, when it is a clearly stated intent of the action.

More than anything it reads like someone not liking that an obvious and effortless counter exists to the "creative" example they pulled from their behind in order to justify an earlier hyperbolic statement. It's shockingly common among people who, correct or not, believe that they are intelligent and therefore can't be wrong. I also see it a lot in teenagers. Sadly tabletop gaming attracts a lot of these people. Meaningful discussion can ONLY occur after both sides drop their pride and accept that they can be wrong.

More on topic, I don't believe that a party of first level characters is necessarily incapable of getting a dragon killed, but I do believe that it will not be accomplished utilizing the the 5e rules in normal gameplay. Convincing a powerful patron, for example, that they should send their army to slay the dragon may occur at any level, but in no way relates to standard rules or gameplay. Stealing explosive charges to bury the dragon in its lair similarly works independent of rules and levels. Diverting a river into the lair or using a Decanter of Endless Water to drown it is level agnostic.

If we accept the (incorrect) decision that readied actions can't be used as described in the book, I have another solution to the first level mongol wannabe. Dragon flies and dashes up to 600 feet. This takes four turns, and the archer must get closer and closer in order to maintain range (thanks, Pythagoras!). If the dragon starts its turn at this altitude and the archer is within thirty feet horizontally, it elects to go prone (no action required). A prone flying creature immediately falls to the ground, so the dragon will immediately take 70 (20d6, capped per the rules) bludgeoning damage and appear beside the quite-startled first level character. Dragon uses its breath weapon to roast the arrogant noob who dared to oppose it. Half movement used to stand up. No action required to laugh.

[Galithar]

That is brilliant and I'm starting an encounter against my table like this soon!

Rolls for random encounter... Pulls out 20d6.
The party gets nervous. Rolls and begins counting.

*SLAMS THE TABLE*
A Dragon plummets from the sky slamming into the ground next to you, as he regains his composure he lets loose a jet of flames from his mouth.
Roll initiative and make Dex saving throws.


... (Gets books thrown at me)...



Laughs maniacally the rest of the engagement.

[Jaelommiss]

That is brilliant and I'm starting an encounter against my table like this soon!

Rolls for random encounter... Pulls out 20d6.
The party gets nervous. Rolls and begins counting.

*SLAMS THE TABLE*
A Dragon plummets from the sky slamming into the ground next to you, as he regains his composure he lets loose a jet of flames from his mouth.
Roll initiative and make Dex saving throws.


... (Gets books thrown at me)...



Laughs maniacally the rest of the engagement.

My dragons are all spellcasting variants with Featherfall. As a reaction cast it [Breath Weapon size] feet about the ground, then hit the party with your breath weapon. A 60 foot breath weapon is functionally a 30 foot radius sphere if the party is on flat terrain. Featherfall also stops your dragon taking ~70 damage, and keeps it out of barbarian range.

If your party says it's unfair, ask them why a flying race who can choose spells WOULDN'T take Featherfall. A sailor would take 1/day waterbreathing if possible, a mountainclimber would take 1/day spider climbing. My dragons take Featherfall.

Keep your d6s out anyway. You'll need them for the breath weapon, and your players will need them for their new characters.


Edit: The first time I used this was with a friendly dragon that the party's Sharpshooter ranger was riding. That hostile mercenary company had a REALLY bad day.

[Kadesh]

Lets assume Dragon is at extreme Longbow range. It might have been flying for longer than that, but it is only relevant to Longbow Range at 600ft. It can Dash Move 160ft, you,can dash move 120ft. It is gaining on you 40ft per round. At 1st level, without 'rolling' for dice, you have a +5 Max to hit VS AC18: 40% Hit Rate on 7.5 dpr is around 3dpr at short range, and around 1dpr at long range.

Assuming 4 party members all with 16-17 Dex. That is mostly likely around 40 odd damage.

When the Dragon gets to be within 40ft lateral of the party at the start of its turn, assuming a 40ft agl, it moves up to 80ft to be directly above the party, and readies the move for after the horses complete their turn, then moves in the same direction 80ft.

Its next turn, it then moves up to 80ft to be within breath range, and enjoy some kentucky fried cleric.

[druid91]

Actually it's more of you not understanding how it works than any form of misuse. The point of the ready action is to do something that needs immediate effect which that move does if the dragon wants to be able to be in range of you with it's breath weapon on it's turn while having an available action.

Turn 1 you move to 120 feet from dragon.
Dragon moves 80 fly closer to you and readied a dash to move if you do. (The reason for this is because it's move speed exceeds yours, it could move up to you, but if like any good Dragon it wants to open with it's breath weapon it needs to be in range with an action available).
Turn 2 you move another 120 making the total 160.
The dragon's readied action triggers moving it 80 feet closer to you. The distance is not 80 feet.
The dragon uses it's move to go another 80 feet, ending 30 feet directly above you. It yes it's breath weapon.


How is this difficult to grasp?

"Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it (PBH p72)."

Straight from the rules so there can be no more confusion or thinking this is somehow abusing a ready action, when it is a clearly stated intent of the action.

The issue is "Up to your speed." Your speed is used in the first turn. So "Up to your speed" would be.... Nothing. No movement. If we are generous and assume it means the current rounds move pool, then you use up the 80 ft movement you are counting on to close the distance.

Ready action does not increase your speed. You pay from your ordinary movement to use it.

You're trying to cram three rounds of movement into two without any manner of speed boosters. Your speed remains the same. It's used up just like normal if you ready action Move.

Basically, this reading of ready means Dash is unnecessary. Since Dash exists. There is no reason to assume that Ready gives you any further movement pool than native.

Furthermore, this is objectly Superior to dash in every way. So. No. Ready doesn't work like that.

Ready to move is like a sprinter at the starting line. They aren't in the middle of running. They are stationary.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Ready action does not increase your speed. You pay from your ordinary movement to use it.

The maximum movement granted on your turn is mutually exclusive to the movement granted by the ready action, as it is not movement made on your turn.

If it helps you understand the intent behind the rules, here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/29/if-you-ready-the-dash-action-can-you-then-move-up-to-twice-you-speed/) is a sage advice question asking about the logistics of this interaction.

I'll quote the relevant tweets just in case you don't want to follow the link yourself.


Question: If you ready the Dash Action, can you then move up to twice you speed in reaction to the trigger?
Jeremy Crawford*: Dash gives you extra movement. Off your turn, you have no movement. E.g., 0 ft. + 30 ft. = 30 ft., not 60 ft.
*Lead rules designer, if you're unaware

This is then followed by a clarification of how Readied movement works


Question: So preparing a Dash with Ready is the same to prepare a normal Movement? There is no distinction between them? Odd.
Jeremy Crawford: Correct

It's as we've been trying to tell you, ready action dash and readying a movement serve the same mechanical benefit. They are intended to allow you an amount of movement equal to your speed (or half of it in some cases) as a reaction. Regardless of how much you moved on your turn, features that allow you to move off your turn (Readied movement, Maneuvering Attack, Skirmisher from Rogue Scout 3) don't care about that, they're entirely separate.

[Jaelommiss]

The issue is "Up to your speed." Your speed is used in the first turn. So "Up to your speed" would be.... Nothing. No movement. If we are generous and assume it means the current rounds move pool, then you use up the 80 ft movement you are counting on to close the distance.

In 5e a characters speed is a mostly fixed value for a character. On your turn you may move a distance up to or equal to that number. This does not mean that your speed is reduced at all. If that were the case, maneuvering attack (allows an ally to move half their speed as a reaction) would give no movement if the character had taken their turn earlier and already moved their maximum amount. The same would apply to spells that involve forced movement of a distance equal to a character's speed (dissonant whispers, for example). Given that we have instances in the rules that cannot work as designed if you cannot move up to your speed multiple times in a single round, I am going to ask that you provide an unambiguous quotation from the core rulebooks, including page number, that proves what you claim. Until such evidence is provided I shall continue to take your writings no more seriously than your farcical example.

[guachi]

Don't dragons with Legendary actions get the ability to move as one of their actions?

With a dude on horseback the dragon could move once (twice if you consider the horse as one turn and rider s another).

[Millface]

Aren't we still making alot of assumptions about the Dragon's intelligence here?

If I'm a dragon and I can't chase you down, am I really going to let you kill me one arrow at a time? Am I really going to fall for your traps, that by necessity have to be relatively close to the ground, because I'm so angry at your mosquito arrows and audacity? Red Dragons may be egotistical, but they have INT 14 and WIS 11. They have the intelligence to know how to avoid these humanoid traps and tricks, and the same wisdom as you are me, which is generally enough not to do something dangerous just because I'm ticked off at you.

The dragon is just going to fly straight up when it looks hopeless and rethink the situation.

You might survive the encounter, but you're absolutely not killing the dragon at that level, and you can bet that the dragon isn't going to forget about the slight, either. He doesn't have to kill you when you engage for it to still be a TPK in the end. All he has to do is come back under the cover of darkness sometime when you're not on your horse, kill the horse first, and proceed with the broiling.

Players can be smart, and I love it when they are, but if I see a 14+ INT on a monster I know inherently that I can use every trick or tactic I can think of against them, because 14 is starting to get into territory where this creature is very likely smarter than I am. I don't have to dumb it down at that point or make mistakes on purpose.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Don't dragons with Legendary actions get the ability to move as one of their actions?

With a dude on horseback the dragon could move once (twice if you consider the horse as one turn and rider s another).

This is a young dragon, so it doesn't have legendary actions.

Regardless of that however, in almost every conceivable circumstance the dragon could brute force a win out even if they were as brainless as he seems to assume.

[druid91]

The maximum movement granted on your turn is mutually exclusive to the movement granted by the ready action, as it is not movement made on your turn.

If it helps you understand the intent behind the rules, here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/29/if-you-ready-the-dash-action-can-you-then-move-up-to-twice-you-speed/) is a sage advice question asking about the logistics of this interaction.

I'll quote the relevant tweets just in case you don't want to follow the link yourself.


*Lead rules designer, if you're unaware

This is then followed by a clarification of how Readied movement works



It's as we've been trying to tell you, ready action dash and readying a movement serve the same mechanical benefit. They are intended to allow you an amount of movement equal to your speed (or half of it in some cases) as a reaction. Regardless of how much you moved on your turn, features that allow you to move off your turn (Readied movement, Maneuvering Attack, Skirmisher from Rogue Scout 3) don't care about that, they're entirely separate.

Sage Advice is contradictory and nonsensical and Jeremy Crawford couldn't curate a coherent ruleset if his life depended on it. I don't care that he's the lead rules designer. That doesn't matter unless he puts it in the book. Which he didn't. What was put into the book is the following.


On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here.

from the 5e SRD. This wording states that speed is a resource to be spent per turn. Ready enables you to use that finite resource on anothers turn. It does not create more of that resource from the ether.

As it is not your turn, your speed is irrelevant as you can only spend your speed for movement on your turn. Dash increases your speed resource for the turn, allowing greater movement during that turn at the cost of an action.

Nothing implies you only have speed on your turn alone. Everything implies speed is a resource refreshed on your turn.

To clarify, if this is the case, then Dash is utterly irrelevant.

Because...


On your turn, you can take a move a distance up to your speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.

So. Theoretical turn. Orc and Elf standing next to each other. Elf moves away 30ft. Readying a Move away from the Orc when it moves towards them.

Ordinarily the elf would have to Dash, and the Orc could Dash after and it becomes a chase.

In this circumstance, the Orc moves UP TO THEIR MOVEMENT. From then on they cannot move. As they have moved up to their movement already. So they cannot take the dash action in order to catch up. Rather than dashes in this scenario they would both be exchanging readies to make their chase. And that's just nonsensical. When Dash, the means of running away, is mechanically worse at running away.

And again, the funny thing is you're ignoring the whole 'Prepare a killing field with secret tunnels and traps and just in general prepare' to argue a baroque misinterpretation of the rules.

Also it's specifically a young dragon. No legendary actions yet.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Nothing implies you only have speed on your turn alone. Everything implies speed is a resource refreshed on your turn.

PG 17 PHB: Speed - Your speed determines how far you can move when travelling (chapter 8, "adventuring" and fighting (chapter 9, "combat")

Pg 189 PHB: Your Turn - On your turn you can move a distance up to your speed ... Your speed - sometimes called your walking speed - is noted on your character sheet ... The "Movement and Position" section later in this chapter gives rules for your move.

PG 190 PHB: Movement and Position - On your turn you can move a distance up to your speed ... However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or you are done moving

PG 193 PHB: Ready - First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction*. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it.
*keep in mind that reactions do not have to happen on your turn

The subtraction to your speed only happen on your turn, to calculate how much you can move as part of your turn. Your speed score is a static number otherwise, and features that draw from that number (whether they add, subtract or allow you to use it out of your turn in combat) use the static number found on your character sheet.

I want you to tell me where you think it's implied that a creature who uses their turn to move now has a speed of 0 until the start of their next turn.

On a somewhat related note as well, it doesn't make any sense at all to bash JC about his inability to write coherent rules and THEN claim that the rules he wrote support your incorrect interpretation of them. You can't believe that he's incompetent and unreliable and also choose to use him as supporting evidence.

[Jaelommiss]

On your turn, you can move a distance up to your speed. You can use as much or as little of your speed as you like on your turn, following the rules here.

from the 5e SRD. This wording states that speed is a resource to be spent per turn. Ready enables you to use that finite resource on anothers turn. It does not create more of that resource from the ether.

As it is not your turn, your speed is irrelevant as you can only spend your speed for movement on your turn. Dash increases your speed resource for the turn, allowing greater movement during that turn at the cost of an action.

Nothing implies you only have speed on your turn alone. Everything implies speed is a resource refreshed on your turn.

What you are choosing to infer from that quotation and what it says are two dramatically different things. First, it qualifies that it applies only to movement that occurs on your turn. Movement taken using a readied action is not on your turn, and thus those rules do not apply. Second, it makes no mention of the character's speed changing at all. It DOES mention that, and again this is qualified by "on your turn", that you may move a distance up to your speed. Speed being a numerical limit to distance traveled and being a resource that it spent are two very different things, and this text states that it is the first. Lastly, the rules for readying actions makes no mention that movement taken using that action is the same or relies on the same pool as movement taken during your turn.

Props on the politician level twisting of words to meet your agenda though.

[druid91]

PG 17 PHB: Speed - Your speed determines how far you can move when travelling (chapter 8, "adventuring" and fighting (chapter 9, "combat")

Pg 189 PHB: Your Turn - On your turn you can move a distance up to your speed ... Your speed - sometimes called your walking speed - is noted on your character sheet ... The "Movement and Position" section later in this chapter gives rules for your move.

PG 190 PHB: Movement and Position - On your turn you can move a distance up to your speed ... However you're moving, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from your speed until it is used up or you are done moving

PG 193 PHB: Ready - First, you decide what perceivable circumstance will trigger your reaction*. Then, you choose the action you will take in response to that trigger, or you choose to move up to your speed in response to it.
*keep in mind that reactions do not have to happen on your turn

The subtraction to your speed only happen on your turn, to calculate how much you can move as part of your turn. Your speed score is a static number otherwise, and features that draw from that number (whether they add, subtract or allow you to use it out of your turn in combat) use the static number found on your character sheet.

I want you to tell me where you think it's implied that a creature who uses their turn to move now has a speed of 0 until the start of their next turn.

On a somewhat related note as well, it doesn't make any sense at all to bash JC about his inability to write coherent rules and THEN claim that the rules he wrote support your incorrect interpretation of them. You can't believe that he's incompetent and unreliable and also choose to use him as supporting evidence.

Curate, as in keep over time. He can write coherent rules. His inability, and the inability of a lot of modern. Tabletop writers is keeping those rules reasonable over time. And Crawford's regrettable decision to use his Twitter as a rules source is not something I personally am going to pay any mind.

If it's to be considered part of the rules, put it in the book.

And your own quotes make my argument Until your speed is used up. They can move up to their speed. They have already done so.

Furthermore, if you look at the rules for using different speeds it outright states that as speed is used it is subtracted.


Using Different Speeds
If you have more than one speed, such as your walking speed and a flying speed, you can switch back and forth between your speeds during your move. Whenever you switch, subtract the distance you’ve already moved from the new speed. The result determines how much farther you can move. If the result is 0 or less, you can’t use the new speed during the current move. For example, if you have a speed of 30 and a flying speed of 60 because a wizard cast the fly spell on you, you could fly 20 feet, then walk 10 feet, and then leap into the air to fly 30 feet more

[ProsecutorGodot]

Curate, as in keep over time. He can write coherent rules. His inability, and the inability of a lot of modern. Tabletop writers is keeping those rules reasonable over time. And Crawford's regrettable decision to use his Twitter as a rules source is not something I personally am going to pay any mind.

If it's to be considered part of the rules, put it in the book.

And your own quotes make my argument Until your speed is used up. They can move up to their speed. They have already done so.

Furthermore, if you look at the rules for using different speeds it outright states that as speed is used it is subtracted.

That quotation you're referencing specifically mentions that it's during that move that the speed is being subtracted, you've still provided no evidence that your speed score is a resource to be expended.

You can move up to your speed on your turn, there's absolutely no reference to that making your speed score 0 until the start of your next turn, there are features that rely on your speed score outside of your turn.

[JNAProductions]

Okay, the simple solution is this:

You start, say, 60' away. You shoot, and your horse Dashes 120' away, for 180' total.

Dragon Dashes 160' to 20' away.

You repeat your last turn, ending 140' away.

Dragon Dashes and ends adjacent to you.

You either Disengage and end 60' away, or Dash and eat an AoO, ending 120' IF THE HORSE LIVES.

The Dragon either closes in and breaths on you (Disengage) or closes in and gets ready to AoO your horse to death (Dash).

Not likely to end well for the party.

[druid91]

That quotation you're referencing specifically mentions that it's during that move that the speed is being subtracted, you've still provided no evidence that your speed score is a resource to be expended.

You can move up to your speed on your turn, there's absolutely no reference to that making your speed score 0 until the start of your next turn, there are features that rely on your speed score outside of your turn.

I'm sorry? You're the one arguing, per Jeremy Crawford, that your movement speed is 0 when it's not your turn.

I'm arguing that your movement speed should properly be written 30ft/30ft and at the end of the round would look like... 0ft/30ft. Because you have spent your movement for the round.

When 5e was released, they made a big deal about how it should read naturally. Constantly in the section dealing with movement they bring up the idea of spending it. You don't spend an a strict number. And in the ONLY example of movement given, it involves your available movement slowly decreasing as its used.

The rules don't explicitly say it's a resource, but in every reference they very much treat it like a resource to be spent.

As for the argument 'Its not your turn.' correct. It's not your turn. And you can only move on your turn. If Mr Crawford is to be believed, your movement speed is zero on others turn and taking the dash action grants you movement speed, but not the ability to move. You could instead use the ability granted to move up to your speed. But your speed would be zero.


Okay, the simple solution is this:

You start, say, 60' away. You shoot, and your horse Dashes 120' away, for 180' total.

Dragon Dashes 160' to 20' away.

You repeat your last turn, ending 140' away.

Dragon Dashes and ends adjacent to you.

You either Disengage and end 60' away, or Dash and eat an AoO, ending 120' IF THE HORSE LIVES.

The Dragon either closes in and breaths on you (Disengage) or closes in and gets ready to AoO your horse to death (Dash).

Not likely to end well for the party.

Yes. This is perfectly valid, they don't want to settle for this because it carries the risk of the dragon getting stuck in a net, and they don't seem to believe that with any level of strategy and planning a first level group could take on a young red dragon.

[Kadesh]

'Hi the guy who wrote the rules is using a format I don't like so I will ignore it' is about as stupid an excuse as ignoring a rule because it was written on an odd numbered page.

Also, nuh uh, I am only going to follow the rules in THIS book (except THAT page) butbwill,ignore EVERYTHING else that man writes because he is an idiot but THIS book written by him is fine, but THAT pdf document isn't.

Also, there is nothing to stop a Dragon from flying to 510ft while you are at +5 to hit with disadvantage, and just plummeting on top of you then unfurling wings and breathing before tootling off. Unless you are looking skyyward for Dragons directly above you, you are probably going to be surprised.

At 1st level with Resistance and making the save you are still taking 14pts of damage; using averages, you need Fire Resist and Con 16; that leaves you with Fire Genasi and Levistus Tieflings only with the Barbarian Class. Both rather poor Barbarian classes with no Str Bonus.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm arguing that your movement speed should properly be written 30ft/30ft and at the end of the round would look like... 0ft/30ft. Because you have spent your movement for the round.

Yes. This is perfectly valid, they don't want to settle for this because it carries the risk of the dragon getting stuck in a net, and they don't seem to believe that with any level of strategy and planning a first level group could take on a young red dragon.
Movement =/= Speed. Speed is a stat, movement is a resource.

Also, a young red dragon has a +10 to hit and deals a minimum of 11 damage on a bite attack or 6 damage on a claw. Unless they roll a natural 1 three times in a row (albeit at disadvantage, this is still incredibly unlikely), a net won't hold them. They would free themselves from the net with one attack, there speed is no longer reduced to zero, they continue to chase.

Mechanics aside, this isn't a strategy, this is choosing to rely on blind luck.

[JNAProductions]

Yes. This is perfectly valid, they don't want to settle for this because it carries the risk of the dragon getting stuck in a net, and they don't seem to believe that with any level of strategy and planning a first level group could take on a young red dragon.

Yeah, considering you're rocking at most +5 to-hit with disadvantage (unless you're a VHuman with Sharpshooter at 10'-15' or Crossbow Expert at 5') and the dragon can still breathe fire while in a net...

Level 1s ain't taking down a Young Red Dragon, not without absolutely insane luck.

[druid91]

'Hi the guy who wrote the rules is using a format I don't like so I will ignore it' is about as stupid an excuse as ignoring a rule because it was written on an odd numbered page.

Also, nuh uh, I am only going to follow the rules in THIS book (except THAT page) butbwill,ignore EVERYTHING else that man writes because he is an idiot but THIS book written by him is fine, but THAT pdf document isn't.

Also, there is nothing to stop a Dragon from flying to 510ft while you are at +5 to hit with disadvantage, and just plummeting on top of you then unfurling wings and breathing before tootling off. Unless you are looking skyyward for Dragons directly above you, you are probably going to be surprised.

At 1st level with Resistance and making the save you are still taking 14pts of damage; using averages, you need Fire Resist and Con 16; that leaves you with Fire Genasi and Levistus Tieflings only with the Barbarian Class. Both rather poor Barbarian classes with no Str Bonus.

I'm sorry. Why aren't you following him around and watching every D&D game he plays to extrapolate the rules from them? Did you or did you not pay good money for a book that contains the rules? Does his opinion on Twitter not frequently waffle back and forth over time because people present him with loaded questions?

The Twitter Clarification and Rules Errata era of gaming is bad because it not only allows designers to get away with sloppy work, it also creates confusion because there is no common ground. You can go fishing through sage advice and their Twitter's and find all kinds of things that simply aren't supported in the rules, and in fact break the game pretty hard. As demonstrated above.

Except it can't. You switch from flying to walking and fall. You move 510 feet, well beyond your normal flying movement speed. And can no longer fly as you would subtract distance moved from the fly speed. The dragon hits dirt for a punishing 20d6 damage.

I'm not ignoring any page. I'm inserting the rules into the greater context the other rules create. Again. If ready generates extra speed. What reason is there for Dashes existence?


Yeah, considering you're rocking at most +5 to-hit with disadvantage (unless you're a VHuman with Sharpshooter at 10'-15' or Crossbow Expert at 5') and the dragon can still breathe fire while in a net...

Level 1s ain't taking down a Young Red Dragon, not without absolutely insane luck.

Agreed. Insane luck and good planning.

[Kadesh]

No. But when I'm made aware of the rules discrepancy that is relevant, I try to take it on board.

For clarity the rules are within the PHB.

edit - Xanathars states when you fall, you fall 500ft instantly.

[druid91]

No. But when I'm made aware of the rules discrepancy that is relevant, I try to take it on board.

For clarity the rules are within the PHB.

edit - Xanathars states when you fall, you fall 500ft instantly.

Ah. Interesting. I haven't read Xanathars cover to cover yet. Our D&D group split up shortly after I got it.

[JNAProductions]

Agreed. Insane luck and good planning.

If your luck is good enough to take a dragon with good tactics, chances are it's good enough to take it with bad tactics too.

No amount of tactics makes this anything other than a curbstomp from the dragon to the PCs.

Strategy can change that, such as poisoning the dragon, raising your own army, luring it into a trap (like, say, an avalanche or rockslide) but tactics? No.

[druid91]

If your luck is good enough to take a dragon with good tactics, chances are it's good enough to take it with bad tactics too.

No amount of tactics makes this anything other than a curbstomp from the dragon to the PCs.

Strategy can change that, such as poisoning the dragon, raising your own army, luring it into a trap (like, say, an avalanche or rockslide) but tactics? No.

That... Was the initial scenario I proposed of which the harassing horsemen were but part.

The PCs have something the dragon wants. Putting them in a position To lure it to them. If they prepared an area with tunnels, traps, home built siege weapons and so on, and then used horsemen with bows/nets to harass the dragon into position then they might be able to win. They might also roll poorly and all die.

[JNAProductions]

That... Was the initial scenario I proposed of which the harassing horsemen were but part.

The PCs have something the dragon wants. Putting them in a position To lure it to them. If they prepared an area with tunnels, traps, home built siege weapons and so on, and then used horsemen with bows/nets to harass the dragon into position then they might be able to win. They might also roll poorly and all die.

Okay. Question: If the PCs are level one, how do they have all these resources?

Hell, a horse is out of reach of your average level 1 PC.

[druid91]

Okay. Question: If the PCs are level one, how do they have all these resources?

Hell, a horse is out of reach of your average level 1 PC.

You use your skills and make them?

[JNAProductions]

You use your skills and make them?

Alright. So you work a day job to afford the various resources to eventually slay a dragon, and hope to all the gods it never catches wind and preemptively kills you, wrecks your stuff, or sets its own trap?

I mean, I won't say it's impossible, but I will say it's likely to be hella boring, and you'd be better off just going on a more appropriate adventure and handling the dragon later.

[Millface]

You use your skills and make them?

I mean, who doesn't know how to craft a horse? I'm pretty sure there's a tweet somewhere were Jeremy explicitly states that horsecraft is part of the Survival skill.

[druid91]

Alright. So you work a day job to afford the various resources to eventually slay a dragon, and hope to all the gods it never catches wind and preemptively kills you, wrecks your stuff, or sets its own trap?

I mean, I won't say it's impossible, but I will say it's likely to be hella boring, and you'd be better off just going on a more appropriate adventure and handling the dragon later.

No. You cut down some trees and use your skills to build Dragons Folly Valley.

I'm picturing something along the lines of a home alone/swiss family Robinson series of 'Preparation' scenes that could be mini adventures in their own right. And at the end they face off with a beast that can and will kill them if they take it head on, so their planning becomes key.

How is that not fun? As for horses. Soldier background starts with a horse. Training it to be a proper warhorse could be part of the adventure.

[Kadesh]

Because I would go so far as to say that with the right tactics, a party of level ones could probably win.

A character on a warhorse moves 120ft per round. Well beyond the dragons movement rate. You keep at a distance, riddling them with long range attack cantrips, spells, and arrows and such. Open up the conflict by taunting the dragon, (Reds are notorious for their foul tempers and thin skins.) Then lure it out into the open where you can pelt it with ranged attacks. Eventually it will give up and flee. Have a mage with the move Earth cantrip and possibly craft carpentry or masonry prepare boltholes and getaways you can use to frustrate the dragons pursuit in case it manages to pull a fast one. Have someone with skill as a siege engineer set up a ballista and use these 'pathetic monkeys and their arrows.' to lure the dragon right into the line of fire.

Certainly a risky endeavor. If the dragon gets into melee or breath weapon range of someone and still has an action you are basically dead. But with a maximum threatened distance of 110 feet on any given round, you are safe, if only by a thin margin.

This is how you started.

'with the right tactics' has turned from running away from something that is faster than you and an AoE breath weapon.

'With the right tactics' has now morphed into having infinite money, time, preparation, perfect situationing. (Btw, you still have have to deal with the dragon being able to tombstone onto the fortress.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Yeah, I'd just make sure each party member knew that they didn't have to fight the dragon and if they don't think there characters would stick by the party members who do, and throw away their lives in the process, then that's totally fine. But what if it actually works! Let us know!

[druid91]

This is how you started.

'with the right tactics' has turned from running away from something that is faster than you and an AoE breath weapon.

'With the right tactics' has now morphed into having infinite money, time, preparation, perfect situationing. (Btw, you still have have to deal with the dragon being able to tombstone onto the fortress.

If... You look at these things the costs are negligible. Siege equipment has no list price and is essentially up to the dm. However given lumber is free and rope/metal are cheap....

Earthworks are likewise free. You can with cantrips move 50 cubic feet of Earth in a minute. putting in a 40 hour work week you would move 120,000 cubic feet of Earth in a week. Combine with carpentry for supports and you can quite easily get a decent tunnel network going.

[Kadesh]

If... You look at these things the costs are negligible. Siege equipment has no list price and is essentially up to the dm. However given lumber is free and rope/metal are cheap....

Earthworks are likewise free. You can with cantrips move 50 cubic feet of Earth in a minute. putting in a 40 hour work week you would move 120,000 cubic feet of Earth in a week. Combine with carpentry for supports and you can quite easily get a decent tunnel network going.

Tunnels are rarely made out of earth. Tunnels are made usually out of rock.

Infinite/Arbitrary Time is also a fantastic premise.

Might as well spend that time adventuring to get to level 7-9.

[druid91]

Tunnels are rarely made out of earth. Tunnels are made usually out of rock.

Infinite/Arbitrary Time is also a fantastic premise.

Might as well spend that time adventuring to get to level 7-9.

Because as we all know trench warfare never happened.

Weeks is not infinite/Arbitrary time.

[Arzanyos]

Infinite no, Arbitrary yes. The longer your plan takes to prepare, the more likely the dragon will attack before your ready. Or will just be off visiting his cousin's volcano when you finally pull the trigger.

[Millface]

The dragon is too smart and mobile to fall for your traps, and strong enough to escape most of them. If they dragon flees, you cannot follow. You cannot kill this dragon with a party of adventurers.

If the "tactic" is to muster an army, that's different, and not what the group in the OP was going to do.

[Kadesh]

Because as we all know trench warfare never happened.

Weeks is not infinite/Arbitrary time.

Open trenches. Right. Sorry, I was expecting sapience.

[druid91]

Open trenches. Right. Sorry, I was expecting sapience.


A Tunnel is quite literally constructed by digging a trench, building a roof on top, then burying it with the earth excavated from the trench.

Will it last 1000 years? No, it won't have to. You only need it to last long enough to kill the dragon.


The dragon is too smart and mobile to fall for your traps, and strong enough to escape most of them. If they dragon flees, you cannot follow. You cannot kill this dragon with a party of adventurers.

If the "tactic" is to muster an army, that's different, and not what the group in the OP was going to do.

'It's ridiculous to give the PC's a week to dig in. But insisting that the Dragon is hyper intelligent and thus able to metagame all their work because it's got a 14 int and no Lore skills whatsoever is A-OK.'

[Unoriginal]

A Tunnel is quite literally constructed by digging a trench, building a roof on top, then burying it with the earth excavated from the trench.

Will it last 1000 years? No, it won't have to. You only need it to last long enough to kill the dragon.


How is a roofed trench going to help you against a flying dragon who breath fire?

[druid91]

How is a roofed trench going to help you against a flying dragon who breath fire?

How is fire going to get through earth again? You build the roof, then bury it. Fireproof.

[Kadesh]

How are you killing the dragon if you have total cover from it?

[Unoriginal]

How is fire going to get through earth again? You build the roof, then bury it. Fireproof.

Wouldn't work unless you put a lot of earth.

More importantly, let's say you have lvl 1 adventurers who build that roofed trench. WHAT do you want them to do with it?

[druid91]

Wouldn't work unless you put a lot of earth.

More importantly, let's say you have lvl 1 adventurers who build that roofed trench. WHAT do you want them to do with it?

Move through it? This seems fairly obvious. It could serve any number of purposes. A large excavation could be used to lure the dragon underground to limit it's mobility. And once underground it could be fairly easily trapped. After all. It's a dragon.

Smaller Excavations could be used as bolt-holes to escape to to force the dragon to re-route to more distant opponents. Excavations could be used to hide aforementioned scratch-built siege equipment.

While there are very few circumstances that lead to the Dragons outright death, there are plenty of circumstances in which a group of level 1 PC's could make themselves more annoying then the dragon wants to deal with.

[Kadesh]

Move through it? This seems fairly obvious. It could serve any number of purposes. A large excavation could be used to lure the dragon underground to limit it's mobility. And once underground it could be fairly easily trapped. After all. It's a dragon.

Smaller Excavations could be used as bolt-holes to escape to to force the dragon to re-route to more distant opponents. Excavations could be used to hide aforementioned scratch-built siege equipment.

While there are very few circumstances that lead to the Dragons outright death, there are plenty of circumstances in which a group of level 1 PC's could make themselves more annoying then the dragon wants to deal with.

You... you want to lure a Dragon underground.

Mate... come on.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Move through it? This seems fairly obvious. It could serve any number of purposes. A large excavation could be used to lure the dragon underground to limit it's mobility. And once underground it could be fairly easily trapped. After all. It's a dragon.

Smaller Excavations could be used as bolt-holes to escape to to force the dragon to re-route to more distant opponents. Excavations could be used to hide aforementioned scratch-built siege equipment.

While there are very few circumstances that lead to the Dragons outright death, there are plenty of circumstances in which a group of level 1 PC's could make themselves more annoying then the dragon wants to deal with.

It's very hard to take you seriously when you're insisting that any creature with an intelligence of 14 would be stupid enough to willingly move into a compromising situation without a plan to escape and deal with the issue. An intelligence of 14 is far above what a majority of humanoids in DND have, this dragon isn't going to throw itself into a ramshackled booby trap because you assume it will.

It might send a few kobolds in to investigate, it might strafe over during your weeks of building and prevent you from becoming an issue.

You're in for a hugely bad time as well if you're convinced that you've trapped the dragon with you underground, all you've done is trapped yourself with a dragon.

[druid91]

It's very hard to take you seriously when you're insisting that any creature with an intelligence of 14 would be stupid enough to willingly move into a compromising situation without a plan to escape and deal with the issue. An intelligence of 14 is far above what a majority of humanoids in DND have, this dragon isn't going to throw itself into a ramshackled booby trap because you assume it will.

It might send a few kobolds in to investigate, it might strafe over during your weeks of building and prevent you from becoming an issue.

You're in for a hugely bad time as well if you're convinced that you've trapped the dragon with you underground, all you've done is trapped yourself with a dragon.

It's very hard to take you seriously when you insist that the exact Int score of a Bandit Captain is somehow superhuman intelligence, when your average Arcane Spellcaster outstrips that by a longshot.

D&D land has no public education. The vast majority of the populace are not intelligent because they were never given the opportunity for schooling. This does not mean that Int 14 is superhuman intelligence. It's 'Eh, they're not DUMB.' Furthermore, Determining the enemies plans and trying to understand a foes intentions is INSIGHT, under WISDOM Of which the Dragon is little better than your average peasant.

Furthermore in a Red Dragons Bio


Arrogant Tyrants
Red Dragons fly into destructive rages and act on impulse when angered.

You are in effect trying to re-write what a Red Dragon is based on some nonsensical misconception about Int Scores.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It's very hard to take you seriously when you insist that the exact Int score of a Bandit Captain is somehow superhuman intelligence, when your average Arcane Spellcaster outstrips that by a longshot.

D&D land has no public education. The vast majority of the populace are not intelligent because they were never given the opportunity for schooling. This does not mean that Int 14 is superhuman intelligence. It's 'Eh, they're not DUMB.' Furthermore, Determining the enemies plans and trying to understand a foes intentions is INSIGHT, under WISDOM Of which the Dragon is little better than your average peasant.

Furthermore in a Red Dragons Bio

You are in effect trying to re-write what a Red Dragon is based on some nonsensical misconception about Int Scores.

Logical deductions, such as reasoning and determining consequences is an intelligence trait, per the PHB. Regardless of that, you are severely underestimate how competent a young dragon is and severely overstating how competent a ragtag group of novice adventurers are.

If you're insisting that a group of level 1 adventurers would have means and skills to assemble a functional dragon trap and the skill to actually kill the dragon that has somehow fallen for such an obvious trap then you shouldn't base that off the premise that the dragon isn't also capable of rational thought. Your entire basis revolves around the dragon being so furious that it loses all reason and decides to effectively commit suicide by not killing the problem in an enclosed area.

You dumped the open field idea because everyone knows that the dragon would eventually be able to catch the adventurer on horseback before he was dealt an real harm and replaced it with a plan that relies on the players being trapped in an enclosed space with said dragon.

Your "tactics" still rely on a complete suspension of disbelief that anyone with a nail, hammer and luck could kill a dragon.

[druid91]

Logical deductions, such as reasoning and determining consequences is an intelligence trait, per the PHB. Regardless of that, you are severely underestimate how competent a young dragon is and severely overstating how competent a ragtag group of novice adventurers are.

If you're insisting that a group of level 1 adventurers would have means and skills to assemble a functional dragon trap and the skill to actually kill the dragon that has somehow fallen for such an obvious trap then you shouldn't base that off the premise that the dragon isn't also capable of rational thought. Your entire basis revolves around the dragon being so furious that it loses all reason and decides to effectively commit suicide by not killing the problem in an enclosed area.

You dumped the open field idea because everyone knows that the dragon would eventually be able to catch the adventurer on horseback before he was dealt an real harm and replaced it with a plan that relies on the players being trapped in an enclosed space with said dragon.

Your "tactics" still rely on a complete suspension of disbelief that anyone with a nail, hammer and luck could kill a dragon.

I said from the start that the point of the horsemen was to lure them into something that could do real damage like a Ballista.

If the Ragtag group of novice adventurers has a wizard in their number, then yes. they have access to someone more intelligent then the dragon. And probably more well read to boot. Again, the ENTIRE CHARACTERIZATION OF RED DRAGONS portrays them as allowing their angry impulses and arrogance to make dumb mistakes. So I don't know why you're making sound like playing to the specific weakness of the creature in question makes it a bad or unreasonable plan.

I did not dump the open field idea, and if you'll note, my current plan relies upon that part in the form of the rider being the bait, I stopped arguing that portion of the tactics largely because it was no longer interesting debating whether or not Ready works that way. We've cut to the meat of that matter, but neither of us is willing to budge on the specifics so there's little purpose in discussing it further. I've given my reasoning and explanation. From now on, you'll simply insist that ready solves the issue, I'd insist ready doesn't work like that. Continuing on, effectively eternally.

And yes! That's why there's actual civilization and it wasn't ALL burned down by dragons? Or do you think high level adventurers just grow on trees? That's not suspension of disbelief. That's story. You have to suspend disbelief to believe that dragons exist at all.

[Unoriginal]

Even assuming you manage to get the dragon into your wood-and-earth roofed trench, how do you want to *contain* the dragon? You seem to have a plan to trap dragons.

[Kane0]

The confusing thing is that there are some murderhobos (rogue and half-orc) but the dragonborn is more of a roleplayer. He has a hatred of red dragons from his backstory.

I am going to have the dragon packing up, ready to leave because there is increased activity in the mountain passes (foreshadowing a barbarian invasion that will occur soon) and he is going to try tracking down his parents. The most bizarre thing is that I thought the players would want to get revenge on the giant who enslaved them (and who also enslaved the giant) and thus would ally with the dragon or at least remain on neutral terms. I honestly do not think there is much justification for them disliking the dragon, he was portrayed as slightly arrogant but not particularly rude.

I have asked anyone who is fighting the dragon to bring a replacement character, and I have prepared a fight just in case any decide to go through with it.

How did it go?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Even assuming you manage to get the dragon into your wood-and-earth roofed trench, how do you want to *contain* the dragon? You seem to have a plan to trap dragons.

Apparently they're manning siege equipment inside of their rudimentary trench, thrown nets are supposed to hold it.

That's some trench that's been dug out, it's over 10 ft tall and wide, structurally sound enough to not be collapsed by the dragon, pathed through so that the horse can maintain it's gallop and filled to the brim with nets and ballista.

All done in a span of weeks where the dragon is caught unawares.

[druid91]

Even assuming you manage to get the dragon into your wood-and-earth roofed trench, how do you want to *contain* the dragon? You seem to have a plan to trap dragons.

Simple. Dirt.

A Ten foot Wide, Ten foot Tall, Sixty Foot Long corridor, displaces 48 cubic feet of dirt. A fraction of what a determined mage could move in a single day. That's 3,555 POUNDS of Dirt. Even with their admittedly impressive strength score, a young red dragon can only physically lift 690 pounds. Once lured into the underground chamber by the rider, the mages can come out of hiding and collapse the pathway to the chamber behind it.

The rider then squeezes out through a small side tunnel, if they manage to escape at all. If not, it's a heroic sacrifice for [insert village here]'s history books. From there, trapped underground. The dragon is helpless to escape as the mages above pile dirt onto their earthworks until the wooden construction can't bear the weight above and the whole thing collapses crushing the dragon to death.

This is but one of many potential scenarios. Again, you have to work with what you have. I'm making the most of what I can be almost guaranteed to have. Dirt. And trees. Because it seems like every campaign is full of those things.

[Unoriginal]

Simple. Dirt.

A Ten foot Wide, Ten foot Tall, Sixty Foot Long corridor, displaces 48 cubic feet of dirt. A fraction of what a determined mage could move in a single day. That's 3,555 POUNDS of Dirt. Even with their admittedly impressive strength score, a young red dragon can only physically lift 690 pounds. Once lured into the underground chamber by the rider, the mages can come out of hiding and collapse the pathway to the chamber behind it.

The rider then squeezes out through a small side tunnel, if they manage to escape at all. If not, it's a heroic sacrifice for [insert village here]'s history books. From there, trapped underground. The dragon is helpless to escape as the mages above pile dirt onto their earthworks until the wooden construction can't bear the weight above and the whole thing collapses crushing the dragon to death.

This is but one of many potential scenarios. Again, you have to work with what you have. I'm making the most of what I can be almost guaranteed to have. Dirt. And trees. Because it seems like every campaign is full of those things.

...so your plan is to make a gigantic pile of dirt on top of your tunnel, then make it collapse?

[ProsecutorGodot]

And yes! That's why there's actual civilization and it wasn't ALL burned down by dragons? Or do you think high level adventurers just grow on trees? That's not suspension of disbelief. That's story. You have to suspend disbelief to believe that dragons exist at all.

Actual civilization doesn't live in a trench they put together in a few weeks and actively bring dragons to trap there. It's also possible for high level magic to prevent dragons from even coming near civilization, Waterdeep for example has such protection from the many ancient dragons in FR.

You're deflecting the point now, the core of the issue is that the plan you think has any chance to succeed only has a reasonable chance to succeed if we take things to extremes that are even unrealistic in a game world. Your plan only works if the level 1 adventurers have the resources to purchase expensive supplies and the talent to craft and use siege equipment, a fast horse that at minimum would cost 75gp (although I recall your adventurer using a War Horse, which is 400gp) the magic and skills to dig out a large trench and keep it from collapsing and a dragon who is already so furious with them that it's willing to throw away any sense of self preservation and chase them into a completely obvious trap.

It's completely unrealistic, which I feel the need to clarify, is from the point of view of the game world and not real life, since you seem to think suspension of disbelief can only be used to describe unrealistic events from the point of view of real life.


Simple. Dirt.

A Ten foot Wide, Ten foot Tall, Sixty Foot Long corridor, displaces 48 cubic feet of dirt. A fraction of what a determined mage could move in a single day. That's 3,555 POUNDS of Dirt. Even with their admittedly impressive strength score, a young red dragon can only physically lift 690 pounds. Once lured into the underground chamber by the rider, the mages can come out of hiding and collapse the pathway to the chamber behind it.

The rider then squeezes out through a small side tunnel, if they manage to escape at all. If not, it's a heroic sacrifice for [insert village here]'s history books. From there, trapped underground. The dragon is helpless to escape as the mages above pile dirt onto their earthworks until the wooden construction can't bear the weight above and the whole thing collapses crushing the dragon to death.

This is but one of many potential scenarios. Again, you have to work with what you have. I'm making the most of what I can be almost guaranteed to have. Dirt. And trees. Because it seems like every campaign is full of those things.

You realize that level 1 adventurers cannot create dirt, only displace it. 5 foot cubes at a time.

How many adventurers are involved in this, because they'll need to collapse this tunnel in 6 seconds to trap the dragon underneath it. If they don't collapse it in a single round, the dragon can simply leave the tunnel. How did you even manage to secure this tunnel so that it didn't collapse before the dragon came?

Also I'm not sure I understand your math, the tunnel dimensions you listed require 6000 cubic feet of dirt to be removed. That would require no less than 1200 castings of Mold Earth to excavate and no less than 120 casts to cover the top in a 5 ft layer of loose dirt. Well I was incredibly off on this, I don't know what I was thinking. covering the hole could be done in as few as 24 castings of the spell assuming that the dirt has been piled up very specifically ahead of time. The issue with excavating the area is that the dirt can only be moved 5 feet at a time, after you remove the first layer you wouldn't be able to drag the second layer out of the hole without first constructing a slope and taking each pile out individually.

Regardless of how long that would actually take, collapsing the tunnel in only 6 seconds by moving 5 cubic feet of dirt 5 feet at a time would take longer than 6 seconds or a massive team of spellcasters.

[druid91]

Basically yep. I can think of other things that could be more fun, but ATM I'm pitching the absolute basics.


Actual civilization doesn't live in a trench they put together in a few weeks and actively bring dragons to trap there. It's also possible for high level magic to prevent dragons from even coming near civilization, Waterdeep for example has such protection from the many ancient dragons in FR.

You're deflecting the point now, the core of the issue is that the plan you think has any chance to succeed only has a reasonable chance to succeed if we take things to extremes that are even unrealistic in a game world. Your plan only works if the level 1 adventurers have the resources to purchase expensive supplies and the talent to craft and use siege equipment, a fast horse that at minimum would cost 75gp (although I recall your adventurer using a War Horse, which is 400gp) the magic and skills to dig out a large trench and keep it from collapsing and a dragon who is already so furious with them that it's willing to throw away any sense of self preservation and chase them into a completely obvious trap.

It's completely unrealistic, which I feel the need to clarify, is from the point of view of the game world and not real life, since you seem to think suspension of disbelief can only be used to describe unrealistic events from the point of view of real life.



You realize that level 1 adventurers cannot create dirt, only displace it. 5 foot cubes at a time.

How many adventurers are involved in this, because they'll need to collapse this tunnel in 6 seconds to trap the dragon underneath it. If they don't collapse it in a single round, the dragon can simply leave the tunnel. How did you even manage to secure this tunnel so that it didn't collapse before the dragon came?

Also I'm not sure I understand your math, the tunnel dimensions you listed require 6000 cubic feet of dirt to be removed. That would require no less than 1200 castings of Mold Earth to excavate and no less than 120 casts to cover the top in a 5 ft layer of loose dirt.

A first level wizard can make from 20 - 100 GP a day casting first level spells. Same for a Cleric. Same for a Sorcerer. It's not that hard to make money in D&D.

Seven Party Members was about what I was picturing.

Also, not sure where you're getting those numbe- Ah. Right. Ok. I was misunderstanding the term cubic feet. (For those interested, I had assumed that a cubic space measured in feet along the sides was a cubic foot. Therefore, five cubic feet was five feet on each side. Bit of a foolish mistake but eh.) But altogether it's irrelevant to everything save the weight. In any case yes. It's a lot of castings. 1200 castings of mold earth to excavate is two hours work.

Also, let me remind you, that established adventures in the setting have had things like 'Giants attack a town, then Goblins sack the town, then bandits sack the town, then ORCS sack the town, all within the same 48 hours starting just prior to the parties arrival.' Things being unlikely doesn't mean they don't happen all the time.

As for collapsing the tunnel. You'd need at minimum two mages with the Mold Earth Cantrip. They enter the tunnel and begin excavating the dirt holding up the ceiling, collapsing each section bit by bit. Round by round. Their work would go much faster than the dragons, and within roughly two to three turns, they could be guaranteed the dragon won't dig out anytime soon. You don't need to fill it in five foot cubes at a time, when you can remove the structural supports allowing much more than five foot of dirt to flow in.

Though, speaking of Earthworks shenanigans. Something has occurred to me that might be an interesting spell combination. Leomunds Tiny Hut, Mold Earth, and Transmute Rock.

One caster uses leomunds tiny hut. The other uses Mold Earth to stack dirt atop the hut and then clears out a door. Casts Transmute rock, mud to rock. Turning the layer of mud atop the leomunds tiny hut into a tiny stone dome. Leomunds Tiny hut is dropped. You have an actual physical tiny hut. Not something our hypothetical party of level ones could do, but certainly an interesting idea.

[JNAProductions]

A first level wizard can make from 20 - 100 GP a day casting first level spells. Same for a Cleric. Same for a Sorcerer. It's not that hard to make money in D&D.

How? Seriously-who the hell is buying?

[Jaelommiss]

Basically yep. I can think of other things that could be more fun, but ATM I'm pitching the absolute basics.



A first level wizard can make from 20 - 100 GP a day casting first level spells. Same for a Cleric. Same for a Sorcerer. It's not that hard to make money in D&D.

Seven Party Members was about what I was picturing.

Also, not sure where you're getting those numbe- Ah. Right. Ok. I was misunderstanding the term cubic feet. (For those interested, I had assumed that a cubic space measured in feet along the sides was a cubic foot. Therefore, five cubic feet was five feet on each side. Bit of a foolish mistake but eh.) But altogether it's irrelevant to everything save the weight. In any case yes. It's a lot of castings. 1200 castings of mold earth to excavate is two hours work.

Also, let me remind you, that established adventures in the setting have had things like 'Giants attack a town, then Goblins sack the town, then bandits sack the town, then ORCS sack the town, all within the same 48 hours starting just prior to the parties arrival.' Things being unlikely doesn't mean they don't happen all the time.

As for collapsing the tunnel. You'd need at minimum two mages with the Mold Earth Cantrip. They enter the tunnel and begin excavating the dirt holding up the ceiling, collapsing each section bit by bit. Round by round. Their work would go much faster than the dragons, and within roughly two to three turns, they could be guaranteed the dragon won't dig out anytime soon.

Collapsing the tunnel won't need any mages. It's a tunnel of dirt. It's going to be held up by wood (because that's what people use. No one uses metal because it's incredibly expensive and iron will rust). There's no possible way to create a ten foot wide tunnel in dirt without supporting it. The dragon is going to watch your horseman ride into the tunnel, laugh, and burn the supports. This is well documented tactic that was used to collapse castle walls, so bother bother trying to say it won't happen. Mine collapses STILL happen to this day, and that's in stone with modern engineering. The dragon just buried your entire subterranean force and siege weapons. Grab 4d6. Roll new characters.

Using Ballistae against a dragon is doomed to fail for another reason. A proper roman ballista was simply a differently shaped catapult used to fling rocks at fixed points (ie. fortifications). It cannot be aimed fast enough to target a flying dragon. What people commonly think of as a ballista, essentially a giant crossbow, is even more ineffective simply because they fire along a horizontal trajectory.

[druid91]

Collapsing the tunnel won't need any mages. It's a tunnel of dirt. It's going to be held up by wood (because that's what people use. No one uses metal because it's incredibly expensive and iron will rust). There's no possible way to create a ten foot wide tunnel in dirt without supporting it. The dragon is going to watch your horseman ride into the tunnel, laugh, and burn the supports. This is well documented tactic that was used to collapse castle walls, so bother bother trying to say it won't happen. Mine collapses STILL happen to this day, and that's in stone with modern engineering. The dragon just buried your entire subterranean force and siege weapons. Grab 4d6. Roll new characters.

Using Ballistae against a dragon is doomed to fail for another reason. A proper roman ballista was simply a differently shaped catapult used to fling rocks at fixed points (ie. fortifications). It cannot be aimed fast enough to target a flying dragon. What people commonly think of as a ballista, essentially a giant crossbow, is even more ineffective simply because they fire along a horizontal trajectory.

Ok.

Your rider (Who is the only one in the tunnel.) Looks at the collapsed 30 feet of tunnel and shrugs. He crawls out the small sized escape tunnel that I mentioned earlier. Everyone looks at each other, shrugs and says "Well, I guess at least he thinks we're dead now and will leave us be. Let's go get a pint and fight some kobolds."



How? Seriously-who the hell is buying?

Anyone who wants a spell cast for whatever reason? Maybe their kid was gored in a farm accident. Maybe they want a fog cloud for their halloween festival. Who knows.

[ProsecutorGodot]

As for collapsing the tunnel. You'd need at minimum two mages with the Mold Earth Cantrip. They enter the tunnel and begin excavating the dirt holding up the ceiling, collapsing each section bit by bit. Round by round. Their work would go much faster than the dragons, and within roughly two to three turns, they could be guaranteed the dragon won't dig out anytime soon. You don't need to fill it in five foot cubes at a time, when you can remove the structural supports allowing much more than five foot of dirt to flow in.

If you're suggesting that this tunnel is made at least 10 feet underground so that the roof collapse will actually bury the entire exit, that takes at least 4 casters that all beat the dragons initiative.

It would only take the dragon one action to brute force its way through 5 cubic feet of dirt, squeeze through that space using the squeezing rules and then the next turn, incinerate the mages because mold earth has a 30ft casting range, conveniently within range of it's breath attack and leaving them unable to escape the dragon.

This situation is becoming increasingly more complex and I still don't understand how the rider managed to bait the dragon into this pitiful trap.


Ok.

Your rider (Who is the only one in the tunnel.) Looks at the collapsed 30 feet of tunnel and shrugs. He crawls out the small sized escape tunnel that I mentioned earlier. Everyone looks at each other, shrugs and says "Well, I guess at least he thinks we're dead now and will leave us be. Let's go get a pint and fight some kobolds."

And then the dragon who is still at the collapsed end of the tunnel 60 ft away sees them celebrating "a job well done". The mages who were stationed at the mouth of the tunnel to collapse it are also dead, seeing as they would have had to be within 30 feet to cast mold earth.

I wasn't aware this dragon was blind and deaf on top of all this ridiculousness.

[Jaelommiss]

Ok.

Your rider (Who is the only one in the tunnel.) Looks at the collapsed 30 feet of tunnel and shrugs. He crawls out the small sized escape tunnel that I mentioned earlier. Everyone looks at each other, shrugs and says "Well, I guess at least he thinks we're dead now and will leave us be. Let's go get a pint and fight some kobolds."

Sure, let's assume a cascading failure is avoided and that the dragon gets afflicted by a Feeblemind spell for the time it takes to leave. End result: Dragon has not be slain by first level characters (this is the failure state of your assertion, in case you were wondering), and a nearby village gets eaten in retaliation.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Sure, let's assume a cascading failure is avoided and that the dragon gets afflicted by a Feeblemind spell for the time it takes to leave. End result: Dragon has not be slain by first level characters (this is the failure state of your assertion, in case you were wondering), and a nearby village gets eaten in retaliation.

This is true actually, your claim was that the adventurers would kill the dragon, not that they would survive the encounter with the dragon.

And under your own assertions, this dragon is completely furious to the point of blind rage, literally willing to risk life and limb to guarantee the death of the rider (still don't know what the rider said or did to make the dragon upset enough to take suicidal actions) I don't see why it would stop at killing this crew of adventurers if it were driven to this point of rage.

[druid91]

If you're suggesting that this tunnel is made at least 10 feet underground so that the roof collapse will actually bury the entire exit, that takes at least 4 casters that all beat the dragons initiative.

It would only take the dragon one action to brute force its way through 5 cubic feet of dirt, squeeze through that space using the squeezing rules and then the next turn, incinerate the mages because mold earth has a 30ft casting range, conveniently within range of it's breath attack and leaving them unable to escape the dragon.

This situation is becoming increasingly more complex and I still don't understand how the rider managed to bait the dragon into this pitiful trap.

It takes the dragon three-five actions. Actually. A five foot cube of dirt is 5000 lbs. The dragons max push is around 1/5th that. Meanwhile, the tunnel is getting further collapsed every round. Then once it's collapsed enough that there's no reasonable chance of escape within time, they can pile the dirt on top until it breaks. IF it tries to dig up, it has to break the ceiling, dropping thousands of pounds of dirt on it. Burying it ahead of schedule.

I'm not going to continue to debate 'How did the Dragon fall for this' when I've explained it multiple times. It knows it has the advantage in a direct contest of arms. It has no reason to fear going into a tunnel if it thinks the party is in the tunnel. It has low wisdom and isn't proficient in insight and is therefor very liable to be tricked, conned, or otherwise bamboozled.



Sure, let's assume a cascading failure is avoided and that the dragon gets afflicted by a Feeblemind spell for the time it takes to leave. End result: Dragon has not be slain by first level characters (this is the failure state of your assertion, in case you were wondering), and a nearby village gets eaten in retaliation.


This is true actually, your claim was that the adventurers would kill the dragon, not that they would survive the encounter with the dragon.

And under your own assertions, this dragon is completely furious to the point of blind rage, literally willing to risk life and limb to guarantee the death of the rider (still don't know what the rider said or did to make the dragon upset enough to take suicidal actions) I don't see why it would stop at killing this crew of adventurers if it were driven to this point of rage.

Nooot quite.


Because I would go so far as to say that with the right tactics, a party of level ones could probably win.

COULD. Not WOULD. And they can. The fact of the matter is that litterally everyone who has taken offense to this statement has taken it as some manner of personal challenge to their authority. To the point where you are twisting rules, breaking the natural characterization of the creature in question, and stating that certain things happen by fiat while disregarding the greater opportunities for story and fun. I DM, I very rarely play these days.

I would personally love it if my players came to me with some scheme to kill a dragon at first level. And sometimes they have! Proverbially anyway. Never literally. But not nearly often enough. Too often it's attempting to money grub at gear and stats and +1 this and Spells that. No. Give me a straightforward crazy scheme to play with, and I'm happy. Am I alright with passing out loot? Sure, I like passing out cool loot as much as the next DM. But I ALWAYS prefer hearing how the players want to use simple stuff to strategize and scheme.

[JNAProductions]

Could implies a reasonable chance. Like, say, 10%.

[druid91]

Could implies a reasonable chance. Like, say, 10%.

This has a much higher than 10% chance of working. Assuming the rider is a bard, all the better to anger the dragon with clever words, their average deception check is going to be 15 (1d20 + 5) If they use Bardic Inspiration, singing a mocking song for example, Their deception check would instead be 1d20 + 5 + 6. Bare minimum of 12. The Dragons insight is just a flat 1d20. the Bard can and will talk circles around the Dragon. the Dragon believes what the Bard wants him to believe.

Remember also, that the party in this scenario has a gemstone that the Dragon wants. Part of why 'Lure the Dragon to you' works.

CORRECTION: Sorry, I'm tired. Bards deception is 1d20 + 1d6 + 5 Bare Minimum 7. Still much higher then the Dragons Bare Minimum of 1.

[JNAProductions]

This has a much higher than 10% chance of working. Assuming the rider is a bard, all the better to anger the dragon with clever words, their average deception check is going to be 15 (1d20 + 5) If they use Bardic Inspiration, singing a mocking song for example, Their deception check would instead be 1d20 + 5 + 6. Bare minimum of 12. The Dragons insight is just a flat 1d20. the Bard can and will talk circles around the Dragon. the Dragon believes what the Bard wants him to believe.

Remember also, that the party in this scenario has a gemstone that the Dragon wants. Part of why 'Lure the Dragon to you' works.

1d20+7+1d6, for a minimum of 9. Bardic Inspiration is not automatically maxed, but they can have Expertise.

And what lie are you telling, exactly? Seriously, give us the exact words. Because you can't just say "I roll to anger the dragon" without saying HOW you're doing it.

Edit: Wait, no, Expertise is at a higher level. So yeah, min 7.

[druid91]

1d20+7+1d6, for a minimum of 9. Bardic Inspiration is not automatically maxed, but they can have Expertise.

And what lie are you telling, exactly? Seriously, give us the exact words. Because you can't just say "I roll to anger the dragon" without saying HOW you're doing it.

Edit: Wait, no, Expertise is at a higher level. So yeah, min 7.

"The Gem and the Party are inside, Come and Take it!" You anger the dragon, as well as convince it of it's already pre-concieved notion that you're idiots and it can easily walk in, kill you all. Take what it wants and leave. And maybe eat a village for fun afterwards.

It goes into the tunnels expecting a fight. You pull ahead as it's forced to land and use it's walking speed. Giving the Bard a brief window of opportunity to Get out through aforementioned small size escape tunnel. After the dragon passes, the mages in the party start collapsing the tunnel when it's more than 70 feet past the designated collapse point.

[ProsecutorGodot]

This has a much higher than 10% chance of working. Assuming the rider is a bard, all the better to anger the dragon with clever words, their average deception check is going to be 15 (1d20 + 5) If they use Bardic Inspiration, singing a mocking song for example, Their deception check would instead be 1d20 + 5 + 6. Bare minimum of 12. The Dragons insight is just a flat 1d20. the Bard can and will talk circles around the Dragon. the Dragon believes what the Bard wants him to believe.

Remember also, that the party in this scenario has a gemstone that the Dragon wants. Part of why 'Lure the Dragon to you' works.

CORRECTION: Sorry, I'm tired. Bards deception is 1d20 + 1d6 + 5 Bare Minimum 7. Still much higher then the Dragons Bare Minimum of 1.

How is it that the Bard approached within a distance to taunt the dragon like this and wasn't killed? How is it that the Bard outran the dragon towards the trap? How is it that the bard was able to maintain control of his horse while pushing it to its absolute limit running from a dragon? How is it that the dragon didn't notice the hiding mages with it's passive perception of 18?

You continue to make a lot of assumptions on these circumstances working out perfectly, requiring the dragon to be uncharacteristically stupid in not being able to catch a horse or uncharacteristically benevolent in not killing the bard on sight when he begins to mock him.

[Jaelommiss]

Dragon is baited to tunnel. Dragon sees prey enter tunnel that wasn't there a month ago. Dragon suspects trap. Dragon uses breath weapon to destroy supports, eliminating threat from trap. Dragon goes to eat a nearby village in retaliation. Village is undefended because all of its fighters were off with the ambush party, so it gets effortlessly destroyed. So far as I can tell all of these things are certain (that is, a die will never be rolled to determine between two cases). Unless wasting weeks preparing an ambush, failing to ensnare their prey, and getting a village destroyed is your party's win condition, they did not, and have no chance to, win.

[druid91]

How is it that the Bard approached within a distance to taunt the dragon like this and wasn't killed? How is it that the Bard outran the dragon towards the trap? How is it that the bard was able to maintain control of his horse while pushing it to its absolute limit running from a dragon? How is it that the dragon didn't notice the hiding mages with it's passive perception of 18?

You continue to make a lot of assumptions on these circumstances working out perfectly, requiring the dragon to be uncharacteristically stupid in not being able to catch a horse or uncharacteristically benevolent in not killing the bard on sight when he begins to mock him.

Well because you can hear someone shouting insults from up to 100 meters away IRL. Good measuring stick to use for this.

Via the aforementioned horse.

By having a trained horse.

Because the hiding mages are hiding behind five feet of Earth with nearby familiars watching so they know when to use their readied actions to bust out.

Again the bard and horse can evade the dragon likely long enough to get to the tunnels.

And no, it doesn't require the dragon be uncharacteristically stupid. 90% of your suggestions require the dragon to be uncharacteristically wary.

All good questions though.

[JNAProductions]

300'. The dragon catches up at a rate of 40' a round.

So, that's 8 rounds or less than thousand feet before the dragon is on you. How did you manage to build a tunnel literally in sight of the dragon's lair?

[ProsecutorGodot]

Well because you can hear someone shouting insults from up to 100 meters away IRL. Good measuring stick to use for this.

Via the aforementioned horse.

By having a trained horse.

Because the hiding mages are hiding behind five feet of Earth with nearby familiars watching so they know when to use their readied actions to bust out.

Again the bard and horse can evade the dragon likely long enough to get to the tunnels.

And no, it doesn't require the dragon be uncharacteristically stupid. 90% of your suggestions require the dragon to be uncharacteristically wary.

All good questions though.

Sure, let's believe that the dragon would be convinced some fool would be screaming up at him to be telling the truth. I'll at least concede that the dragon would give chase to punish the man for his insolence. We'll call this plausible.

On all aspects of the horse, beyond suggesting that a level 1 adventurer has access to a trained warhorse (which is still ridiculous) the very definition of animal handling checks is to maintain control of a spooked animal. If you're not making at least one during this chase then your horse has more balls than any man does.

The dragon, using its action to dash, has 40 feet of movement on the horse. Implying that the dragon wouldn't eventually catch up with the Bard and harry him into running a different direction would also imply that this trap was set up within line of sight of the dragons lair. As far as this is concerned mechanically, when the dragon catches up the horse must disengage to avoid attacks of opportunity and then the dragon can fly faster than the horse can run, letting the dragon use it's action to kill the horse and rider.

As for the mages, that plan has a flaw. The flaw is that to see through your familiar, you must use your action and it only lasts until the start of your next turn. They can't ready an action to bust out of their dirt cages and observe the location through a familiar.

No, this isn't uncharacteristically wary for a dragon.

Red dragons are fiercely territorial and isolationist. However, they yearn to know about events in the wider world, and they make use of lesser creatures as informants, messengers, and spies. They are most interested in news about other red dragons, with which they compete constantly for status.

The area around the dragon's lair is very likely inhabited by Kobolds that are subservient to the dragon. Even if the dragon himself didn't spot this trap being constructed in the weeks that it would take, his agents would and they would inform him of a strange group of people building a rather large tunnel at the border of his territory.

Speaking of his territory, typically it would be a mountain or a badlands type of area. As in not a whole lot of trees to reinforce that tunnel you're insisting you could hide from him in such a wide open space.

Best case scenario the dragon finds out about you setting up and demands fealty, killing you if you refuse. Worst case scenario is it kills you at it's earliest opportunity (very likely before you trap is ever finished) because you're encroaching on his land.

[Millface]

Obligatory reiteration that the dragon is too smart to fall for your BS and just because he's angry doesn't mean he's stupid.

Just because he's egotistical doesn't mean he's stupid.

Just because you think you're smart doesn't mean you are.

Edit: Further reading shows me that you've moved on from "a group of level 1s can kill this dragon" to "a group of level 1s can aggravate this dragon into leaving for a bit."

That's true.

[Finback]

Ok.

Your rider (Who is the only one in the tunnel.)

What about the horse?!


" Let's go get a pint and fight some kobolds."

But if the party's just apparently taken down a dragon, do you really think the players will just want to fight kobolds next? No - next up, they'll be formulating plans to take down tarrasques with dirigibles, arch-liches with a series of trebuchets and sticky paper, and Demogorgon with a peasant railgun.

[Finback]

It takes the dragon three-five actions. Actually. A five foot cube of dirt is 5000 lbs.

Sorry, is this five cubic feet of dirt, or a five foot cube of dirt?

Edit: wait, sorry. Can we clarify again, what spell was this the players were using to move this soil? Because you said it was a 10x10x60 ft tunnel. If they're doing this by hand, it's going to take a very long time. Long enough that an active apex predator like a dragon, which would have a large patrol range to seek food, would possibly notice these new earthworks.

[Galithar]

Spell is mold earth.
Five foot cube
AKA 25 cubic feet of dirt.

Also note that the spell only moves the dirt 5 feet per casting. Also the entire tunnel must be created in "loose earth" which to me reads as "freshly tilled garden" anything else would be much too compact to qualify for the instant excavation and movement.

Basically the plan still looks like Swiss cheese even assuming the dragon is brain damaged to begin with.

[Finback]

Spell is mold earth.

Right, now I'm with you. Still, seems an excessive thing to be doing, over and over, non-stop. I'm reminded of that thread where someone said a player wants their PC cast shillelegh and mage armour every 30 seconds or something, while on an eight hour hike..

[Unoriginal]

This reminds me of the time of the 5e playtest, just before the release. Some people saw the Young Green Dragon's statblock and started raving about how dragons weren't mighty foes anymore but cattle-thieves who had to sneak around and flee.

[druid91]

Sure, let's believe that the dragon would be convinced some fool would be screaming up at him to be telling the truth. I'll at least concede that the dragon would give chase to punish the man for his insolence. We'll call this plausible.

On all aspects of the horse, beyond suggesting that a level 1 adventurer has access to a trained warhorse (which is still ridiculous) the very definition of animal handling checks is to maintain control of a spooked animal. If you're not making at least one during this chase then your horse has more balls than any man does.

The dragon, using its action to dash, has 40 feet of movement on the horse. Implying that the dragon wouldn't eventually catch up with the Bard and harry him into running a different direction would also imply that this trap was set up within line of sight of the dragons lair. As far as this is concerned mechanically, when the dragon catches up the horse must disengage to avoid attacks of opportunity and then the dragon can fly faster than the horse can run, letting the dragon use it's action to kill the horse and rider.

As for the mages, that plan has a flaw. The flaw is that to see through your familiar, you must use your action and it only lasts until the start of your next turn. They can't ready an action to bust out of their dirt cages and observe the location through a familiar.

No, this isn't uncharacteristically wary for a dragon.


The area around the dragon's lair is very likely inhabited by Kobolds that are subservient to the dragon. Even if the dragon himself didn't spot this trap being constructed in the weeks that it would take, his agents would and they would inform him of a strange group of people building a rather large tunnel at the border of his territory.

Speaking of his territory, typically it would be a mountain or a badlands type of area. As in not a whole lot of trees to reinforce that tunnel you're insisting you could hide from him in such a wide open space.

Best case scenario the dragon finds out about you setting up and demands fealty, killing you if you refuse. Worst case scenario is it kills you at it's earliest opportunity (very likely before you trap is ever finished) because you're encroaching on his land.

It's a bard. They cast Heroism* on the horse. The horse is now impossible to scare or spook. Buttercup the Brave Horse becomes a meme for the remainder of the campaign.

Indeed it is that very thing I intend to exploit. It sends Kobolds to do it's investigation for it. Kobolds are not smart. Kobolds are in point of fact stupid. With an Int of 8 and a Wisdom of 7. You convince the Kobolds that they caught on to your secret plan to fight the dragon underground where it can't fly away. Which shouldn't be hard, because they're Kobolds.

You build not in the dragons own territory. It's a dragon, you have it's shiny thing, it will come to you.

Fair point about the familiar trick. Slows the process Down slightly. But not unworkably.


Obligatory reiteration that the dragon is too smart to fall for your BS and just because he's angry doesn't mean he's stupid.

Just because he's egotistical doesn't mean he's stupid.

Just because you think you're smart doesn't mean you are.

Edit: Further reading shows me that you've moved on from "a group of level 1s can kill this dragon" to "a group of level 1s can aggravate this dragon into leaving for a bit."

That's true.

In point of fact, the dragon is that stupid. It's not got proficiency in any lore skills, investigation, or any other intelligence skill for that matter. Meaning it's half decent bonus is all it gets. 1d20 + 3 vs 1d20 + 5 at bare minimum. And if we lead into deception and insight, then the dragon is even worse off. With a flat 1d20. With disadvantage because it's own biases are being played to.

And no, the closest to that was me admitting that if the DM is being unreasonable to to the point of Jaelommiss, you're better off just nodding, smiling, and finding another game.


What about the horse?!

Ah yes. We will have to use some of the Dragons hoard to commission a statue. "HERE FELL BUTTERCUP. THE BRAVEST HORSE THE WORLD EVER KNEW."

As an aside the other part of your post made me picture something like fly paper on the end of a rope. Someone runs up and slaps it on the liches back and then a team of horses drags him off into the sunset.

It made me laugh, despite it's ridiculousness.


Spell is mold earth.
Five foot cube
AKA 25 cubic feet of dirt.

Also note that the spell only moves the dirt 5 feet per casting. Also the entire tunnel must be created in "loose earth" which to me reads as "freshly tilled garden" anything else would be much too compact to qualify for the instant excavation and movement.

Basically the plan still looks like Swiss cheese even assuming the dragon is brain damaged to begin with.

Loose Earth as in not stone.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's very hard to take you seriously when you're insisting that any creature with an intelligence of 14 would be stupid enough to willingly move into a compromising situation without a plan to escape and deal with the issue. An intelligence of 14 is far above what a majority of humanoids in DND have, this dragon isn't going to throw itself into a ramshackled booby trap because you assume it will. On a humorous note, any number of parties of PC's that have a wizard in them (with an intelligence of at least 14) have done just that by wandering down into a dungeon or a cavern or an old ruin without an escape plan. :smallwink:

Your point on "if they build it, the dragon will come" being a baseless assumption I am in agreement with.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Indeed it is that very thing I intend to exploit. It sends Kobolds to do it's investigation for it. Kobolds are not smart. Kobolds are in point of fact stupid. With an Int of 8 and a Wisdom of 7. You convince the Kobolds that they caught on to your secret plan to fight the dragon underground where it can't fly away. Which shouldn't be hard, because they're Kobolds.

You build not in the dragons own territory. It's a dragon, you have it's shiny thing, it will come to you.

In point of fact, the dragon is that stupid. It's not got proficiency in any lore skills, investigation, or any other intelligence skill for that matter. Meaning it's half decent bonus is all it gets. 1d20 + 3 vs 1d20 + 5 at bare minimum. And if we lead into deception and insight, then the dragon is even worse off. With a flat 1d20. With disadvantage because it's own biases are being played to.

If you're continuing to base the Bard's chance of success on his relevant ability scores being better than the dragons, does he have an intelligence high enough to understand that he needs to call out for the dragon to chase him from a safe distance (that he would need to research, a dragons flight speed is not common knowledge) does he have the wisdom necessary to train his warhorse for this scenario, as well as the dexterity to remain mounted on the horse while it bolts at full tilt away from a dragon's lair.

Which in this scenario, the trap can't realistically be more than a football stadiums away (roughly 120 meters including the end zones) because otherwise the dragon will outrun the horse and fry the bard. If this tunnel was constructed far enough outside the dragons territory, the bard has literally no hope of outrunning the dragon for that long.

And again you continue to make assumptions in your favor, why is the dragon at disadvantage to determine it's being tricked?

Even worse, how in the nine hells is it a positive for you to have convinced the Kobolds who find you constructing this trap that it's exactly what they think it is. Now the dragon has first hand knowledge that you're attempting to fight it while it has the disadvantage.

You're making too many assumptions based on ability scores, wisdom 11 doesn't mean you have zero survival instinct and a lack of proficiency in skills doesn't mean you know absolutely nothing about them. The dragon isn't stupid, he isn't naive and he isn't going to fall for a trap he knows about.

[druid91]

If you're continuing to base the Bard's chance of success on his relevant ability scores being better than the dragons, does he have an intelligence high enough to understand that he needs to call out for the dragon to chase him from a safe distance (that he would need to research, a dragons flight speed is not common knowledge) does he have the wisdom necessary to train his warhorse for this scenario, as well as the dexterity to remain mounted on the horse while it bolts at full tilt away from a dragon's lair.

Which in this scenario, the trap can't realistically be more than a football stadiums away (roughly 120 meters including the end zones) because otherwise the dragon will outrun the horse and fry the bard. If this tunnel was constructed far enough outside the dragons territory, the bard has literally no hope of outrunning the dragon for that long.

And again you continue to make assumptions in your favor, why is the dragon at disadvantage to determine it's being tricked?

Even worse, how in the nine hells is it a positive for you to have convinced the Kobolds who find you constructing this trap that it's exactly what they think it is. Now the dragon has first hand knowledge that you're attempting to fight it while it has the disadvantage.

You're making too many assumptions based on ability scores, wisdom 11 doesn't mean you have zero survival instinct and a lack of proficiency in skills doesn't mean you know absolutely nothing about them. The dragon isn't stupid, he isn't naive and he isn't going to fall for a trap he knows about.

No, but that's the parties advantage. Up to 7 different people with different skills planning. So on any skill you can name that isn't perception or athletics, they're probably better at it.

Why would the Bard be far from the trap? Your assumption is that the Bard has to sit at the Dragons Den. He doesn't. He sits near the tunnel.

And "We are going to fight the dragon with swords in a place where he can't fly." Isn't the plan. Because it's a plan that ends poorly for the party. The dragon goes in, Because in that circumstance it wins handily.

Then you reveal the real plan and the dragon gets buried alive.

No but it does mean sufficient lack of proficiency that it's victory is not at all assumed or even likely as some seem to assert. For the vast majority of this discussion, the assertion has been, based solely on the dragons moderate intelligence, that it would be too clever to fall for any sort of trap.

It's not that clever. As indicated by its own abilities and proficiencies.

[JNAProductions]

I'll be sure to tell all my 14 Int players that their characters aren't clever from now on.

[druid91]

I'll be sure to tell all my 14 Int players that their characters aren't clever from now on.

I mean. Are your players insisting that their supernatural 14 Int renders them completely immune to traps and deception because they're superhumanly intelligent to the point that even rolling is pointless?

Because that's what had been argued here.

That is the level of clever of which this dragon is not.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Why would the Bard be far from the trap? Your assumption is that the Bard has to sit at the Dragons Den. He doesn't. He sits near the tunnel.

That's exactly the problem, if the bard is near the tunnel then the tunnel had to have been built within a stones throw of the dragons den. If that's the case, the dragon has watched them construct this entire thing without investigating in your scenario.

-The bard has to be within range to scream at the dragon
-The tunnel has to be outside the territory of the dragon
-The bard has to be at the mouth of the tunnel to escape

The bard is outside of the dragons territory (at least 6 miles away, according to the monster manual), screaming at him to chase him into this man made tunnel.

Absolutely, this is a clever plan.

[druid91]

That's exactly the problem, if the bard is near the tunnel then the tunnel had to have been built within a stones throw of the dragons den. If that's the case, the dragon has watched them construct this entire thing without investigating in your scenario.

-The bard has to be within range to scream at the dragon
-The tunnel has to be outside the territory of the dragon
-The bard has to be at the mouth of the tunnel to escape

The bard is outside of the dragons territory (at least 6 miles away, according to the monster manual), screaming at him to chase him into this man made tunnel.

Absolutely, this is a clever plan.

I'm sorry?

1:) Party makes off with Dragons Gemstone.

2:) Constructs trap.

3:) Dragon decides this is taking too long and sends out his Kobolds to spy.

4:) Kobolds get tricked but lead the Dragon to the trap.

5:) Bard, who had been spending his days since the Kobolds sitting out front of the tunnel, leaps into the saddle, casts Bravery on his horse, and then shouts insults at the Dragon, riding off into the tunnel.

6:) Dragon, lacking the skills to identify the tunnel as anything more then just a tunnel, follows as he knows due to his spies that the enemy and his gem lays within.

7:) tunnel is collapsed condemning poor buttercup to be the dragons last meal.

8:) Burrow entire is collapsed, killing the dragon.

Can this go wrong? Certainly! But it has a reasonable chance of success. And that's good enough for me.

[Unoriginal]

And this STILL relies on the dragon getting in the tunnel rather than breathing fire in it and pounding on the roof until it collapses

[druid91]

And this STILL relies on the dragon getting in the tunnel rather than breathing fire in it and pounding on the roof until it collapses

True, but it wants the gemstone. While that doesn't entirely negate the risk, it does lessen it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm sorry?

1:) Party makes off with Dragons Gemstone.

2:) Constructs trap.
Aha. I was even giving you the benefit of the doubt that this wasn't the dragons own gemstone that they were trying to use as bait.

With this knowledge, your chances are even closer to zero.


A red dragon knows the value and provenance of every item in its hoard, along with each item’s exact location. It might notice the absence of a single coin, igniting its rage as it tracks down and slays the thief without mercy. If the thief can’t be found, the dragon goes on a rampage, laying waste to towns and villages in an attempt to sate its wrath.

Good luck, you've died at step 1.

[druid91]

Aha. I was even giving you the benefit of the doubt that this wasn't the dragons own gemstone that they were trying to use as bait.

With this knowledge, your chances are even closer to zero.



Good luck, you've died at step 1.

It's a gemstone the Dragon knows of and wants. Not something already in the Dragons hoard.

It's still 'The Dragons gemstone' as in the gemstone the dragon wants.

[Unoriginal]

True, but it wants the gemstone. While that doesn't entirely negate the risk, it does lessen it.

Your argument was that the dragon was so angry they weren't rational.

A Red Dragon would have no use for a gem which can't stand fire, anyway, and if it's just burried it can send kobolds to search for it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It's a gemstone the Dragon knows of and wants. Not something already in the Dragons hoard.

It's still 'The Dragons gemstone' as in the gemstone the dragon wants.

That's bull and you know it.

[druid91]

Your argument was that the dragon was so angry they weren't rational.

A Red Dragon would have no use for a gem which can't stand fire, anyway, and if it's just burried it can send kobolds to search for it.

No, my argument was that the dragon would be too angry to stop and inspect architecture rather than chase it's enemy.

Those things require patience. Of which the dragon lacks.



That's bull and you know it.

No. I really don't.

[JNAProductions]

No, my argument was that the dragon would be too angry to stop and inspect architecture rather than chase it's enemy.

Those things require patience. Of which the dragon lacks.

No. I really don't.

A hastily constructed tunnel is pretty easy to spot. Again, you're assuming the dragon is angry SPECIFICALLY to follow the character, and not just squash the tunnel and order his minions to dig the gem out.

[druid91]

A hastily constructed tunnel is pretty easy to spot. Again, you're assuming the dragon is angry SPECIFICALLY to follow the character, and not just squash the tunnel and order his minions to dig the gem out.

The dragon is well outside its own territory, smashing the tunnel and having it's minions dig the gem out requires it to all but abandon it's other pursuits for some time and leave it's Hoard unguarded.

[ProsecutorGodot]

No. I really don't.

You're suggesting that a gem that the dragon wants that badly wouldn't have been retrieved sooner, you're also suggesting that the dragon would go personally to retrieve this gem even though he has a collection of kobolds to do it for him. He knows it's a trap and for some reason you assume he'll go blindly into the cavern.

What you're describing bears some striking similarities to the introductory chapter of Hoard of the Dragon queen.

However in Hoard of the Dragon queen, our first level adventurers have a skilled tactician to inform them of what they need to do, a Keep to hold up in for defense and a small army to assist them.

Even with all these resources, Hoard of the Dragon queen is often considered to have one of the worst introductory chapters to a campaign in this edition due to how ridiculously out of scale it is for a group of first level adventurers. What you're suggesting is that a group of 7 level one adventurers set up a trap for a dragon alone in his territory, made off with a valuable relic that he wants and managed to hold off waves of kobolds and beasts and in the weeks of construction, somehow the dragon never actually showed up mid construction to settle matters immediately.

If an entire city can be made to burn, suffering hundreds of casualties along the way in a single night, how do 7 adventurers hold off a dragons forces for weeks.

It's completely ludicrous. The chances of this actually killing the dragon are virtually zero, a number so low that managing it would require the DM to play the dragon like an Ape and still relies too heavily on luck. Even the chances of simply escaping the dragon are very low with the situation you've put these adventurers in, although escape is significantly more likely than killing the dragon.

Trying to suggest that this has any reasonable chance of success in the way that you've proposed it is completely unbelievable.


The dragon is well outside its own territory, smashing the tunnel and having it's minions dig the gem out requires it to all but abandon it's other pursuits for some time and leave it's Hoard unguarded.

And you continue to move the goalposts, I recall your plan originally had this rider harrying the dragon with spells or arrows during his escape in an attempt to kill it. You've very conveniently shifted away from that plan into an even more unrealistic situation that requires an extreme amount of assumptions on exactly how angry you can make a dragon from over 6 miles away.

Hard to believe this started with the rider having 110ft of safe space to requiring the rider to be miles away and wait at the mouth of a cavern, hoping that the dragon will come.

[Unoriginal]

The dragon is well outside its own territory, smashing the tunnel and having it's minions dig the gem out requires it to all but abandon it's other pursuits for some time and leave it's Hoard unguarded.

You stated that the Bard stayed near the tunnel so they could get in before the dragon catches them. You also stated the Bard was the one luring the dragon inside the tunnel. And you stated this was outside of the dragon's territory.

How are you getting the dragon outside of their territory and close enough of the tunnel for the flying red lizard to be lured in?

[ProsecutorGodot]

You stated that the Bard stayed near the tunnel so they could get in before the dragon catches them. You also stated the Bard was the one luring the dragon inside the tunnel. And you stated this was outside of the dragon's territory.

How are you getting the dragon outside of their territory and close enough of the tunnel for the flying red lizard to be lured in?

Apparently the Kobold spies are supposed to tell the dragon that the adventurers built a trap to slay him with and he's supposed to go for it because they have a gem he wants.

[Chaosmancer]

I've determined I want to be in Druid91's game. I could take over a kingdom by level 1.

Play a half-elf bard, proficiency in deception, history, and really that's probably all you need.

Guards and peasants aren't proficient in insight, and have at most a 12 wisdom. So, waltz into town with fine noble clothes and a conmans second identity as the new emperor of the surrounding countryside. They will believe you.

The nobles have a +4 so they might be able to beat your deception, but without proficiency in history they don't know the laws of the land, so you can likely quote or make up historical precedence. Your greater knowledge of history and law makes everything you say far more believable.

Then, you can utilize the resources of your new kingdom for fun and profit. And if you hit level two you get expertise which makes everything better.

[druid91]

You're suggesting that a gem that the dragon wants that badly wouldn't have been retrieved sooner, you're also suggesting that the dragon would go personally to retrieve this gem even though he has a collection of kobolds to do it for him. He knows it's a trap and for some reason you assume he'll go blindly into the cavern.

What you're describing bears some striking similarities to the introductory chapter of Hoard of the Dragon queen.

However in Hoard of the Dragon queen, our first level adventurers have a skilled tactician to inform them of what they need to do, a Keep to hold up in for defense and a small army to assist them.

Even with all these resources, Hoard of the Dragon queen is often considered to have one of the worst introductory chapters to a campaign in this edition due to how ridiculously out of scale it is for a group of first level adventurers. What you're suggesting is that a group of 7 level one adventurers set up a trap for a dragon alone in his territory, made off with a valuable relic that he wants and managed to hold off waves of kobolds and beasts and in the weeks of construction, somehow the dragon never actually showed up mid construction to settle matters immediately.

If an entire city can be made to burn, suffering hundreds of casualties along the way in a single night, how do 7 adventurers hold off a dragons forces for weeks.

It's completely ludicrous. The chances of this actually killing the dragon are virtually zero, a number so low that managing it would require the DM to play the dragon like an Ape and still relies too heavily on luck. Even the chances of simply escaping the dragon are very low with the situation you've put these adventurers in, although escape is significantly more likely than killing the dragon.

Trying to suggest that this has any reasonable chance of success in the way that you've proposed it is completely unbelievable.



And you continue to move the goalposts, I recall your plan originally had this rider harrying the dragon with spells or arrows during his escape in an attempt to kill it. You've very conveniently shifted away from that plan into an even more unrealistic situation that requires an extreme amount of assumptions on exactly how angry you can make a dragon from over 6 miles away.

Hard to believe this started with the rider having 110ft of safe space to requiring the rider to be miles away and wait at the mouth of a cavern, hoping that the dragon will come.


Trying to suggest that an ADULT blue dragon is in some way equal to a young red, despite it being both more intelligent, wiser, and a legendary creature. Let alone an adult blue with the support of a greater organization.

Now that's ridiculous.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Trying to suggest that an ADULT blue dragon is in some way equal to a young red, despite it being both more intelligent, wiser, and a legendary creature. Let alone an adult blue with the support of a greater organization.

Now that's ridiculous.

I said that the situation is similar, in the sense that even just dealing 24 damage to the dragon is considered ludicrously difficult with twice as many units attacking it.

You're not even just proposing that they cause the dragon to flee, you expect them to kill it. Killing a young red dragon with 7 level 1 adventurers would be more difficult than dealing 24 damage to an adult blue dragon with 4 level 1 adventurers and the support of a small army and battlements.

[druid91]

I've determined I want to be in Druid91's game. I could take over a kingdom by level 1.

Play a half-elf bard, proficiency in deception, history, and really that's probably all you need.

Guards and peasants aren't proficient in insight, and have at most a 12 wisdom. So, waltz into town with fine noble clothes and a conmans second identity as the new emperor of the surrounding countryside. They will believe you.

The nobles have a +4 so they might be able to beat your deception, but without proficiency in history they don't know the laws of the land, so you can likely quote or make up historical precedence. Your greater knowledge of history and law makes everything you say far more believable.

Then, you can utilize the resources of your new kingdom for fun and profit. And if you hit level two you get expertise which makes everything better.

The laws of the land don't require a lore skill.


Your Intelligence (History) check measures your ability to recall lore about historical events, legendary people, ancient kingdoms, past disputes, recent wars, and lost civilizations.

Note it says nothing about "What the law is." Because that's not something you'd not be expected to know as a basic functioning person.

Secondly yes! You could do that! Until of course you run into someone into someone with authority of their own. Remember the lies being told to the dragon are plausible.

Sure you might gull some peasants and guards into believing you are your most imperial majesty Bob of Bobshall. But your claim has to be plausible.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Note it says nothing about "What the law is." Because that's not something you'd not be expected to know as a basic functioning person.
Now hold on, you can't make that assumption, these peasants are about as wise and not as smart as a young red dragon.

As we well know, Young Red Dragon's aren't even smart enough to realize they're walking into a trap. It's not safe to assume a less intelligent human would even know how to read.

[druid91]

Now hold on, you can't make that assumption, these peasants are about as wise and not as smart as a young red dragon.

As we well know, Young Red Dragon's aren't even smart enough to realize they're walking into a trap. It's not safe to assume a less intelligent human would even know how to read.

And neither would a peasant realize they were walking into a trap. But a Dragon would probably know that the cowardly humans make killing each other against the law. Just like a peasant would know that. One is hidden knowledge, the other is not.

[ProsecutorGodot]

And neither would a peasant realize they were walking into a trap. But a Dragon would probably know that the cowardly humans make killing each other against the law. Just like a peasant would know that. One is hidden knowledge, the other is not.

I hate to spoil it for you but even in our real life people don't know all the laws.

Local Laws, State Law, National Law, International Law. I can't tell you how many people I have to inform of the law when they attempt to purchase Alcohol or Lottery tickets at times where they legally cannot be purchased. So no, we can't assume that any local peasant would be aware of the law in a fictional world because it's not even true that perfectly functional people in real life are aware of all the laws.

That's not relevant to this situation however, as you're still assuming a great many things about the dragons actions, most importantly that the dragon even cares enough to enter the cavern and not just collapse it and be done with it.

[Arzanyos]

Wait, hasn't this dragon already shown that even though he wants the gem, he's not willing to get it himself? That's why the PC's have it. He sent them to get it for him. What happens to the plan if instead of the dragon coming after the bard, it's 7 2nd level adventurers?

[druid91]

I hate to spoil it for you but even in our real life people don't all the laws.

Local Laws, State Law, National Law, International Law. I can't tell you how many people I have to inform of the law when they attempt to purchase Alcohol or Lottery tickets at times where they legally cannot be purchased. So no, we can't assume that any local peasant would be aware of the law in a fictional world because it's not even true that perfectly functional people in real life are aware of all the laws.

That's not relevant to this situation however, as you're still assuming a great many things about the dragons actions, most importantly that the dragon even cares enough to enter the cavern and not just collapse it and be done with it.

The closest thing to our IRL legal system in D&D is hell. Literally Hell. Where Asmodeus reigns.

Everywhere else the law is fairly simple.


Wait, hasn't this dragon already shown that even though he wants the gem, he's not willing to get it himself? That's why the PC's have it. He sent them to get it for him. What happens to the plan if instead of the dragon coming after the bard, it's 7 2nd level adventurers?

Then the party grows to 14, some of whom are second level?

[Arzanyos]

How? They don't automatically join you. They were told to steal a gem for the dragon, so steal a gem for the dragon they will. What if the actually like said dragon, and have worked with it before? You can't just assume you'd convince them to join your plan.

[Chaosmancer]

The closest thing to our IRL legal system in D&D is hell. Literally Hell. Where Asmodeus reigns.

Everywhere else the law is fairly simple.



Then the party grows to 14, some of whom are second level?

Of course the law is simple, do what the person in charge says or die.

I'm the person in charge now. Charlatan gives me a rock solid identity , complete with proof like a signet ring. Conquests and family lines coming into power of old lands was common back in the day. Completely plausible that the House of Bobshall from across the river has sent their Scion to reassert claim over their ancestral lands. Deception of between +6 or +8 if I happen to get level two. Solid odds of rolling over a twenty. And I don't want to remove the nobility, just enfold them in my empire.

The legal code isn't history (like historical precedence that English commonlaw was based upon) fine, still an Intelligence check. Noble has a +1 my bard with point buy and jack of all trades has at least double that if not triple. Just using the law and historical precedence of former kingdoms and who is in power (heraldry is historical so knowledge about local lords and who is this guy's superior counts) to get advantage on the check.

People with real authority? They send messengers, those guys probably are commoners or close to it. Deception convinces them I'm the rightful ruler, and by the time anyone looks to challenge me I can bring forth a militia to fight against the usurpers.

The soldiers are probably still guard stats, +2 perception and no insight skill, no way they notice the tunnels my wizard friend used mold earth to dig around my capitol over the last few weeks. Just collapse them underneath the army. Drop of 10 or 20 ft is reasonable. Might even bury them alive.

Then use deception, either the gods or the earth itself opened up to defend my claim. Might even get a church on my side with that. Enemy army definitely loses.

Heck, just convince the general I'm the rightful ruler and he was hired to usurp me. General of a small area is likely a veteran, +0 the insight and intelligence. Illiterate and gullible it shouldn't be hard to turn him to my side.

Then with the catapults we built (you just need wood and rope after all) we can destroy the estates of the nobles who tried to usurp my regime, distribute the wealth to the common people to get them on my side and begin talking with the various tribal chieftains into joining my empire.

[Finback]

Then the party grows to 14, some of whom are second level?

I think the implication is, if the dragon is smart enough to hire the party to get the gem, and then is convinced they have the gem and haven't brought it back - why not hire ANOTHER party to hunt down the players? Hell, a single high enough level bandit lord wanting to collect a bounty, or get in good with a dragon, would probably be a challenge for the party.

[druid91]

I think the implication is, if the dragon is smart enough to hire the party to get the gem, and then is convinced they have the gem and haven't brought it back - why not hire ANOTHER party to hunt down the players? Hell, a single high enough level bandit lord wanting to collect a bounty, or get in good with a dragon, would probably be a challenge for the party.

The issue with this and with sending Kobolds is that it's actually counterproductive. They can kill the Kobolds or Bandits fairly easily. then they get stronger.

[Finback]

The issue with this and with sending Kobolds is that it's actually counterproductive. They can kill the Kobolds or Bandits fairly easily. then they get stronger.

If they kill the kobolds, the dragon won't follow up to find out what's going on, because they can't report that the party has the gemstone though.

And I didn't say bandits, I said a high enough level. The dragon, in theory, has infinite resources compared to the party - the dragon's mere existence is a resource. "go hunt down these people, or I burn your village". That's an entire plot right there - what if the dragon sends innocent farmfolk, who just want the dragon to leave them alone? They might honestly not WANT to hurt the party, but hey, the needs of the many. Plus, there's the party's moral dilemma - do we kill innocents, to achieve our goals of killing a dragon?

[Finback]

I did the maths with Kobold Fight Club. The dragon just has to send one CR5 half-red dragon veteran, and that's effectively a potentially deadly encounter. One bounty hunter, with allegiances to the dragon, and a handful of mooks? The party might not even see it coming, because they're expecting a dragon, not someone who's going to corner them in an alley and shank them.

[The Aboleth]

Apologies as I haven't read the entire thread, but the crux of the issue seems to be "At least some of the party is determined to take on a Dragon despite the obvious fact it is WAY outside their league."

I recently ran into a similar situation with my players, in which they decided to take on a white dragon despite being fairly low-level (the party was level 5, and comprised of 6 players). As a DM, I generally try not to dissuade my players from doing what they want to do, because the #1 rule of the game is to Have Fun, and taking on Dragons is generally fun. So here's how I played it:

First, I gave the party as much time as they needed to prepare for the Dragon. They were in an abandoned Giant fortress, and I knew this battle would be the only one of the session, so I gave them as much time as needed to set traps and plan their strategy. Some DMs may feel I was too generous in this regard, but I justified it by playing the dragon as super arrogant--it felt that no matter what strategy the party devised, it would easily crush them.

When the dragon actually decided to show itself, I again chose to REALLY play up its arrogance. It wasn't stupid, mind you, but it definitely didn't take the party as a serious threat until it became clear they were doing real damage to its HP. Only then did the dragon begin breaking out its Wing and Breathe attacks--attacks that did very real damage to the party (3 characters nearly died as a result of the first breath attack). This forced the party to fight more defensively the rest of the battle, resulting in them using cover more effectively than they ever had prior to this point.

Finally, I allowed the party multiple avenues of escape in case the battle turned south. Multiple possible passageways to exit the area, for example, and I also made a point to mention how flimsy the walls and stonework were after decades of decay (in case they decided to collapse any tunnels). TPKs are rarely fun, and if my players truly do make a mistake and find themselves in over their heads, I want to give them an opportunity to acknowledge that and get the hell out of dodge (whether they choose to take that option is another matter, of course).

Bottom line: Just because your players might make an ill-advised decision doesn't mean you need to slaughter them for it. Obviously don't make the challenge easy for them, but I would try to think of ways you can make the encounter less insurmountable while still providing a real (and dangerous) challenge. At the end of the day, I feel very strongly that DMs should try to provide the players with as much freedom as possible. Sometimes, that freedom leads to dangerous decisions, but you can still find reasonable ways to mitigate that somewhat while still providing a fun, engaging challenge.

[Sigreid]

If I were to try to take this dragon at a low level, I would try to find out when and where it feeds and see if I could poison its food supply.