Should I allow Persistent Ocular/Reach Spell

[gogogome]

Considering how there are a lot of broken personal range spells (I'm looking at you consumptive field!) I don't think allowing every spell to be persisted at the cost of more resources is bad. Should I?

[Doctor Awkward]

Considering how there are a lot of broken personal range spells (I'm looking at you consumptive field!) I don't think allowing every spell to be persisted at the cost of more resources is bad. Should I? The player that wants this combo is looking to persist Summon Monster spells.

You cannot prepare Summon Monster as an Ocular Spell.

The Ocular Spell feat only allows spells with a target. Summon Monster doesn't target anything.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Fourth sentence from the Benefit section of Ocular Spell: "Only ray spells and spells with a target other than personal can be cast as ocular spells."

Spells that generate a non-ray effect, including Summon Monster, cannot be used with Ocular Spell.


I wouldn't allow Persistent Spell to be used on any spell that doesn't naturally have a personal or fixed range.

[gogogome]

Ok, thanks for pointing out my mistake. I'll change the first post accordingly.

[Jack_Simth]

Ok, thanks for pointing out my mistake. I'll change the first post accordingly.

Reach only works on Touch spells. Again, Summon Monster need not apply.

the Planar Binding or Planar Ally line could do the job, though. Carries some risks, of course.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Reach only works on Touch spells. Again, Summon Monster need not apply.

the Planar Binding or Planar Ally line could do the job, though. Carries some risks, of course.

Instant duration, can't be persisted, and typically lasts longer than a day anyway.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Reach only works on Touch spells. Again, Summon Monster need not apply.

the Planar Binding or Planar Ally line could do the job, though. Carries some risks, of course.

Assuming by "doing the job" you mean, "provide conjured support for an extended period of time," this is quite right. Planar Binding and Planar ally are the generally accepted ways of doing this, although if you prefer a lower-risk option then at higher levels, 3+ hours of an Abyssal Army/Elemental Swarm/Heavenly Host/Hellish Horde can always be arranged.

[Jack_Simth]

Assuming by "doing the job" you mean, "provide conjured support for an extended period of time," this is quite right.
For what other job would one want a Persistent Summon Monster? Or more to the point, what can you do with a Persistent Summon Monster that you can't do with something from the Planar Binding line?

[gogogome]

Reach only works on Touch spells. Again, Summon Monster need not apply.

the Planar Binding or Planar Ally line could do the job, though. Carries some risks, of course.

I know that's why I removed it from the 1st post.

The player does not want to use planar line of spells since the non consensual part stresses him out greatly.

[SLOTHRPG95]

For what other job would one want a Persistent Summon Monster? Or more to the point, what can you do with a Persistent Summon Monster that you can't do with something from the Planar Binding line?

Well, you have access to different potential mooks. There are plenty of elementals (and a few others) that have more than 18 HD. In addition, the spells have different levels of risk attached. I'm not saying you should be able to Persist Summon Monster, since as has been pointed out it's not a valid target.

[Nifft]

My reading of Persistent Spell is that it's not supposed to apply to Effect spells, including rays -- it's supposed to apply to things like detect magic and detect thoughts, which are effectively Personal spells but aren't labeled as such.

[Doctor Awkward]

My reading of Persistent Spell is that it's not supposed to apply to Effect spells, including rays -- it's supposed to apply to things like detect magic and detect thoughts, which are effectively Personal spells but aren't labeled as such.

It applies to a spell with a "Fixed" or "Personal" range.

Detect Magic is has a maximum range of 60 feet. If the caster is a 30th level Archmage, or a 1st level specialist enchanter, the range of that spell will always be 60 feet. It is a fixed range spell.

Prayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prayer.htm) has a maximum range of 40 feet. The range is 40 ft. if the caster is the high priest of the order, or the lowliest of lowly acolytes. It is a fixed range spell.

Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) has a range of "Close". This is 25 ft. plus and additional 5 ft. per 2 caster levels. A 30th level Archmage has a maximum range of 40 feet. A first level specialist enchanter has a range of 25 ft. The range of this spell is not fixed. It is level dependent, and therefore is not a valid target of Persistent Spell.

[Nifft]

It applies to a spell with a "Fixed" or "Personal" range.

Detect Magic is has a maximum range of 60 feet. If the caster is a 30th level Archmage, or a 1st level specialist enchanter, the range of that spell will always be 60 feet. It is a fixed range spell.

Prayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/prayer.htm) has a maximum range of 40 feet. The range is 40 ft. if the caster is the high priest of the order, or the lowliest of lowly acolytes. It is a fixed range spell. Yep, those are both spells which operate in a range that is fixed from the caster, and could have been Range: Personal spells since they augment the caster or create an aura around the caster.

That's exactly the sort of spell which I'm talking about as being effectively Personal.



Enlarge Person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enlargePerson.htm) has a range of "Close". This is 25 ft. plus and additional 5 ft. per 2 caster levels. A 30th level Archmage has a maximum range of 40 feet. A first level specialist enchanter has a range of 25 ft. The range of this spell is not fixed. It is level dependent, and therefore is not a valid target of Persistent Spell. That's correct, and the conflation here is that the range is not fixed and the caster is not necessarily the spell's target.

I think the authors were looking for a criteria which allowed them to distinguish between spells that could be personally permanent vs. spells which target others, and the fixed range spells in Core were effectively a filter for self-only auras & perception augmentation.

Outside of Core, the distinction breaks down -- and as a DM there's no reason for me to pick a hardline stance on unintended consequences in my real games, especially not when doing so would tend to reward abuse.

If we're not talking about real games, and we're just having fun with dysfunctions, then you're correct but irrelevant.

[Doctor Awkward]

Yep, those are both spells which operate in a range that is fixed from the caster, and could have been Range: Personal spells since they augment the caster or create an aura around the caster.

That's exactly the sort of spell which I'm talking about as being effectively Personal.


That's correct, and the conflation here is that the range is not fixed and the caster is not necessarily the spell's target.

I think the authors were looking for a criteria which allowed them to distinguish between spells that could be personally permanent vs. spells which target others, and the fixed range spells in Core were effectively a filter for self-only auras & perception augmentation.

Outside of Core, the distinction breaks down -- and as a DM there's no reason for me to pick a hardline stance on unintended consequences in my real games, especially not when doing so would tend to reward abuse.

If we're not talking about real games, and we're just having fun with dysfunctions, then you're correct but irrelevant.

What dysfunction?
Touch, and spells with range of an exact number are fixed.
Close, Medium, and Long ranges are not.

What's an example of the distinction breaking down?

[Nifft]

What dysfunction? Applying Persistent via Occular.


Touch, and spells with range of an exact number are fixed. IIRC that's a separate error -- as far as I can tell, Touch isn't fixed-range in 3.5e.


Again, the distinction which I think was intended was that Persistent Spell can apply to spells which are effectively personal, which in Core is spells that are Personal range and happens to also be spells which were assigned a fixed range, like detect magic.