[3.5] Large Lich?

[Thurbane]

So, just a bit of idle pondering.

What are the options for having a NPC who is a Lich of large size?

I've got a few possibilities, none of which are ideal. The fact Lich specifies the Humanoid type limits things:

- A large Humanoid, of which only Hornhead Saurial springs to mind.

- A Half-Ogre (RoD) with the Humanoid heritage feat.

- A Humanoid with Permanent Enlarge Person.

- A large evil Outsider using the Lichfiend (LM) template.

Any other options I haven't considered? As an NPC, CR is more relevant than LA.

Cheers - T

[Buufreak]

Do either the half giant or half minotaur from that one dragon magazine change base creature's type? If not, you could slap them on your preferred PHB race and go from there.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's Ulitharid into Alhoon.

[Insert Dragon] into Dracolich, literally anything evil with the dragon creature type qualifies, so slap Half-Dragon onto whatever base you prefer.

Permanency: Enlarge Person won't work since it can only affect humanoids, becoming undead would mean they no longer gain its benefits.

I'd go with a Primordial Giant Half-Ogre, that should still work with Human Heritage, if not just Half-Dragon and Dracolich it. A large size lich that flies with skeletal wings has a certain appeal to it.

[Saintheart]

Jotunbrud? All the tags, none of the occupied space?

[Thurbane]

Good feedback everyone!


Do either the half giant or half minotaur from that one dragon magazine change base creature's type? If not, you could slap them on your preferred PHB race and go from there.

Ooh, should have specified no Dragon Mag, sorry.

[Caudex Capite]

Not exactly permanent, or Large, but there is the Wu Jen spell Giant Size, for up to Colossal size when you need it. Might take a bit of work to get access to it as Wizard or Sorc, but it can be done, and even Persisted with the standard methods. I'm aware this is kinda pushing the boundaries of the question, but I figured it was close enough to be relevant. If Colossal is too big, you can stop at Huge.

[Falontani]

Death Master 20 gives lichdom to any creature (even an undead)
Wallet in the wastes 10 gives dry lich, which iirc doesn't have the type requirement
Alhoon as stated above works, but illithids can be created from any humanoids, so you have all the human heritage tricks without actually taking them (though that's a weird trick)
Obviously dracolich works
Finally iirc monster of faerun has a few lich variants, although afb

Probably not acceptable is the third party ravenloft book denizens of dread's Elemental Lich

[Bartmanhomer]

There's an Ogre Mage that might fit the criteria.

[Thurbane]

OK, thanks for all the suggestions.

I'm leaning towards a Primordial Magic-Infused (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041222a) Half-Ogre (RoD) with the Human Heritage feat.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2m85mgw.png

[Yogibear41]

Iron Lich from Iron Kingdoms d20 sets your size to large. For the most part its worse than a regular lich for player characters use, but it has some cool fluff and could be an amusing evil NPC. It also boosts your strength to 20 if it wasn't already, so you could theoretically start out with like a 6 strength halfling, and go to 20 strength large sized.

[The Viscount]

If you don't use the Dragon Magazine Update for Oriental Adventures, Chameleon, Asp, and Cobra Shinomen Naga are all large humanoids.

[flappeercraft]

Well the Dry Lich template from Sandstorm can be applied to any living creature. Although it does require ten levels of Walker in the Waste

[Nifft]

Wallet in the wastes 10 gives dry lich, which iirc doesn't have the type requirement

You have a call from El Segundo about a lost wallet.

[Saintheart]

You have a call from El Segundo about a lost wallet.

Hey, Wallet in the Waste is a legit good PrC, the Auto Club Membership Card (Ex) ability is really handy for getting you out of tricky spots.

[Thurbane]

So, the ability mods for a Primordial Magic-Infused Half-Ogre are Str +2, Dex -2, Con --, Int +4, Wis +2, Cha +4.

Assuming Wizard 12, I'm looking at Str 16, Dex 12, Con --, Int 21, Wis 12, Cha 16, using the elite array (as I do for NPCs).

Thank you all for the suggestions and feedback. :smallsmile:

[frogglesmash]

My sig has a list that could be helpful.

[Nifft]

My sig has a list that could be helpful.

Maybe you could display it?


https://image.ibb.co/h5yKBz/Screen_Shot_2018_10_03_at_2_12_10_PM.png (https://imgbb.com/)

[JNAProductions]

I got it.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=21821549&postcount=1).

[frogglesmash]

I'm not sure why my sig isn't showing.

[Nifft]

I'm not sure why my sig isn't showing. In this post right now, your sig is showing.

There's a check-box which you can use to display or suppress your sig, might have gotten toggled by mistake on your previous post.

[ShurikVch]

- A large Humanoid, of which only Hornhead Saurial springs to mind.Well, there are also:
Qullan (Living Greyhawk Journal #4): CR 2
Yeti (Dungeon #84): CR 3

Also, how about the Large-sized Hybrid Form of various Lycanthropes?

Grim Psion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b) is psionic lich in all but name

"Wells of Darkness" (Savage Tide Adventure Path, Dungeon #148) have three "Male arcanist varrangoin lich binder 3/anima mage 2", who are "discovered a method of attaining lichdom that bypasses the need of a phylactery."
Their "communal phylactery" is the Wells of Darkness - 73rd layer of the Abyss
Also, their method "also capable of allowing non-humanoid creatures to become liches" (Varrangoins are Magical Beasts)

http://ddm-images.s3.amazonaws.com/cards/Uh/31R.gif

[Amemnon91]

I like the idea of an Ogre Mage lich that I saw someone mention. Really, any large creature that's smart enough to have class levels you could justify any way you want to so long as they meet the prereqs for making a phylactory or whatnot.

Try some elemental influences too. Maybe a salamander or a big sahuagin

[Bartmanhomer]

I like the idea of an Ogre Mage lich that I saw someone mention. Really, any large creature that's smart enough to have class levels you could justify any way you want to so long as they meet the prereqs for making a phylactory or whatnot.

Try some elemental influences too. Maybe a salamander or a big sahuagin

I mentioned about the Ogre Mage lich. :smile:

[Amemnon91]

I mentioned about the Ogre Mage lich. :smile:

Siiiiick. Ogre mage cleric lich sounds like a hell of a boss to me

Also, OP, doesn't have to be an arcane caster or even a full casting class to meet the 11th level caster requirement to make the phylactory. So if you wanted your large lich creature to be a gish (which I would recommend for the size boost to equipment damage) like a duskblade, have fun!

[ShurikVch]

The Dead Throne is a minor artifact from the Sandstorm
It's able to turn into Lich any living creature who sit on it and agree on it's bargain: "Rule my minions, and I will grant you life everlasting."
(The "life everlasting" is, actually, Lichdom, and newly created Lich wouldn't be able to go farther than 100' from the Throne, which acts as the Lich's phylactery)
Throne grants ability to turn living creatures into various "lesser" Undead, and to control up to 100 HD of Undead

Since the Throne explicitly ignores spellcasting requirements, than, maybe, "Humanoid" isn't necessary too?

[Bartmanhomer]

Siiiiick. Ogre mage cleric lich sounds like a hell of a boss to me

Also, OP, doesn't have to be an arcane caster or even a full casting class to meet the 11th level caster requirement to make the phylactory. So if you wanted your large lich creature to be a gish (which I would recommend for the size boost to equipment damage) like a duskblade, have fun!
I couldn't agree with you more. An Ogre Mage cleric lich is a great boss to face. :biggrin:

[Endarire]

Spells in general only check legality at cast time. Thus, enlarge person only checks the creature's type at cast time. If it's still in effect at type changing, you should still qualify.

[Crake]

You know, as the DM, you could just ignore the restriction on having to be a humanoid to become a lich. It doesn't really make sense anyway, there's no real reason a non-humanoid couldn't become a lich, hell dracoliches prove that to be the case.

[Amemnon91]

You know, as the DM, you could just ignore the restriction on having to be a humanoid to become a lich. It doesn't really make sense anyway, there's no real reason a non-humanoid couldn't become a lich, hell dracoliches prove that to be the case.

Very true. I'm a firm believer in the rule that if you can come up with a legit backstory, make it happen. Dark fey pixilich? Game on

[Thurbane]

You know, as the DM, you could just ignore the restriction on having to be a humanoid to become a lich. It doesn't really make sense anyway, there's no real reason a non-humanoid couldn't become a lich, hell dracoliches prove that to be the case.

I know, but I always try RAW options before resorting to house-ruling/rule 0.

[Nifft]

I know, but I always try RAW options before resorting to house-ruling/rule 0.

Making a monster isn't what I usually think of as rule 0.

I mean, it seems like there are better guidelines for creating & modifying monsters than there are for most ad-hoc parts of the game.

[Bartmanhomer]

Also any Giant with Large size obviously will make a great lich.

[Endarire]

Any Medium creature with the expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) power of sufficient duration.

[Kaihaku]

https://kaihaku.net/roleplaying/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/VordakaiCyclopsLich_Front-1.jpg

Cyclops Lich. Of course. Reaper already has the mini ready for you and everything.

But, for RAW considerations... Large Humanoids in 3.5 are Giants or Monstrous Humanoids. There are some in 3 if that's less of a stretch than just letting Giants be Liches.


There are four large humanoids:

Shinomen Naga, Chameleon. 2HD, 30', NA +3, Poison DC 13, +8 Hide and Move Silently.
Shinomen Naga, Asp. 3HD, 30', Swim 30', NA +4, Poison DC 14.
Shinomen Naga, Cobra. 3HD, 30', NA +5, Poison DC 13, Danger Sense.
Stingtail Asabi. 7HD, 40', Burrow 30', Poison DC 15.

The first three are in Oriental Adventures, p. 173. The last one is in Monsters of Faerun, p. 15, but has too many HD for Alter Self.

Also, apparently, the Shinomen Naga were updated to 3.5 in Dragon #318 and somehow managed to keep their Large Humanoid status without errata.

[Thurbane]

Thanks all for the feedback, given me plenty of options. :smallsmile: