Figuring out my carrying capacity.

[Doomboy911]

So things may have spiraled out of control with some combinations.
So I have knowledge is power which allows me to add my intelligence on top of my strength for carrying things. I have a 20 to my intelligence and a 16 to my strength, so 26 in total. I'm taking Muleback cords which makes my carrying capacity act as though my strength was 8 higher so 34 for my current max load I can carry.

On top of that I'm casting Ant Haul which triples my carrying capacity.

I'm having trouble figuring out what my maximum carrying capacity is. Any help out there?

[Remuko]

if you are a medium biped, using the numbers you've given, you should have a max heavy load of 7200 lbs.

[torrasque666]

Wait, does Knowledge is Power only add half your Intelligence or should your STR+INT be 36?

[Ramza00]

You are Atlas aren't you?

[Knaight]

I have a 20 to my intelligence and a 16 to my strength, so 26 in total. I'm taking Muleback cords which makes my carrying capacity act as though my strength was 8 higher so 34 for my current max load I can carry.

On top of that I'm casting Ant Haul which triples my carrying capacity.

I'm having trouble figuring out what my maximum carrying capacity is. Any help out there?

I'm not familiar with the intelligence to strength boost, but where is this 26 coming from? Does it add based on distance from 10? Does it add half intelligence? Should it just be 36. In any case, muleback cords work the same way regardless so you have either triple the load at 34 or triple the load at 44. Using the encumberance table that's the (strength at 24)x4x3 or the (strength at 24)x4x4x3, including Ant Haul. This works out to 8,400 or 37,600 respectively.

[Ramza00]

I'm not familiar with the intelligence to strength boost, but where is this 26 coming from? Does it add based on distance from 10? Does it add half intelligence? Should it just be 36. In any case, muleback cords work the same way regardless so you have either triple the load at 34 or triple the load at 44. Using the encumberance table that's the (strength at 24)x4x3 or the (strength at 24)x4x4x3, including Ant Haul. This works out to 8,400 or 37,600 respectively.

Factotum level 3
Brains over Brawn (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a modifier on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump.

[torrasque666]

Factotum level 3
Brains over Brawn (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a modifier on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump.
I don't think its that as none of that mentions carrying capacity.

[Knaight]

Factotum level 3
Brains over Brawn (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain your Intelligence bonus as a modifier on Strength checks, Dexterity checks, and checks involving skills based on Strength or Dexterity, such as Hide, Climb, and Jump.

That definitely doesn't apply here - carrying capacity isn't a check. It also adds a bonus and not your intelligence. That drops your strength to 24, which means you have a maximum carrying capacity of only 2100.

[Doomboy911]

This is knowledge is power from pathfinder . https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-discoveries/arcane-discoveries-paizo/knowledge-is-power-ex/

[ericgrau]

@^ That doesn't seem to affect carrying capacity. 2100 lbs. it is, assuming above is right.

[flappeercraft]

These calculators can help a bit for calculating carrying capacities.
3.5 (http://rpgtools.awardspace.com/cweight.htm)
PF (https://rimzy.net/tools/javascript_pathfinder_carrying_capacity_calculator .htm)

[Crake]

@^ That doesn't seem to affect carrying capacity. 2100 lbs. it is, assuming above is right.

Yeah, I was just looking at it myself.

Firstly, it only adds your intelligence modifier, and secondly it's only on strength checks to lift something, like a heavy portcullis or the like.

[Doomboy911]

Yeah, I was just looking at it myself.

Firstly, it only adds your intelligence modifier, and secondly it's only on strength checks to lift something, like a heavy portcullis or the like.

You are correct but here's the way to look at it. +3 from my strength, and +5 from intelligence thus +8 in total which as a stat would be 26 muleback cords increase that by eight for carrying objects and such. Also if the issue is I can't carry something because it's not a check and then I try to lift something that I currently can't lift it becomes a strength check which should mean I can over fill a backpack and then carry it.

[Knaight]

You are correct but here's the way to look at it. +3 from my strength, and +5 from intelligence thus +8 in total which as a stat would be 26 muleback cords increase that by eight for carrying objects and such. Also if the issue is I can't carry something because it's not a check and then I try to lift something that I currently can't lift it becomes a strength check which should mean I can over fill a backpack and then carry it.

Being able to lift something doesn't imply being able to carry it. I can lift a 800 pound object with one other person (I'm thinking of a specific thing I move a lot for work here), that doesn't mean I can walk around with it, let alone walk around anywhere close to my normal walking speed.

That's no way around requiring a check, and as far as I know there is no way around requiring a check.

[Crake]

You are correct but here's the way to look at it. +3 from my strength, and +5 from intelligence thus +8 in total which as a stat would be 26 muleback cords increase that by eight for carrying objects and such. Also if the issue is I can't carry something because it's not a check and then I try to lift something that I currently can't lift it becomes a strength check which should mean I can over fill a backpack and then carry it.

This right here is classic munchkinery: If I act like these two things which are not stated to be the case are in fact that case, then we can derive this thing into this thing into this thing which says I can do this, despite there actually being nothing about the rules leading to that conclusion.

Sorry Doomboy, but the feat gives you a bonus to strength checks to lift or break things, no bonus to carrying capacity in any way. The intent behind the feat is quite clear, you can use your intelligence to better calculate leverage to make breaking and lifting things easier, like how will turner uses the table to help lever the prison door from jack sparrow's cell in the original pirates of the carribean. That doesn't suddenly give him some sort of psychic power to enable him to be able to carry more than he once could on his back. If it did, the feat would be (Su) not (Ex).

[AvatarVecna]

A bit more to the point, that's not at all what Knowledge Is Power represents. Give a smart man a big enough lever, and he can move the world; give a smart man enough pulleys and rope, and he can lift a tank above his head. but that doesn't mean he can carry a tank or the world on his shoulders, just that he knows how to use levers and pulley systems to empower the force he puts into lifting something off the ground. I would argue that allowing Knowledge Is Power to apply in a roundabout fashion to carrying capacity isn't even keeping with Rules As Intended or Rules as Interpreted, much less Rules As Written. More to the point, wizard doesn't really need a way to add Int to Str for carrying capacity, because they have other solutions to the problem of "I can't carry all this crap around with me": self-buffs, extradimensional spaces, teleportation, and so on.

[Doomboy911]

These are very fair points actually although it would be a blast to carry that much I can still move boulders with relative ease. Although I'm upset I did learn stuff and got a very handy tool for keep track of this stuff so thank you everyone for the help.

[unseenmage]

What spell do Muleback Cords use to affect carrying capacity?

And if that spell is Ant Haul would this be a case of the same bonus from the same source being added twice?

[AvatarVecna]

What spell do Muleback Cords use to affect carrying capacity?

And if that spell is Ant Haul would this be a case of the same bonus from the same source being added twice?

Technically, no, and it's a giant cluster****. So starting out: Ant Haul is a spell that triples your carrying capacity, and doesn't interact with any other aspect of your strength score. Furthermore, Bull's Strength (and spells like it giving an enhancement bonus to Strength) affect every aspect of your Strength modifier, but don't affect your Strength Score for the purposes of carrying capacity. So if you were to make an item that affects only Carrying Capacity, basing it on Ant Haul (and using Ant Haul in the item creation) makes sense. And yet...Muleback Cords are crafted by casting Bull's Strength, for some reason.

Got that stupidity? Cool? Cool. Moving on. So let's look at the actual item effect and how it's worded. I will compare it with another item (the Heavyload Belt). The Heavyload Belt lets the user act as if under a continuous Ant Haul effect, full stop. That's how the mechanics of that item reads. That is also, very decidedly, not how the mechanics for the Muleback Cords read. In fact, the Muleback Cords don't even directly say that they triple your carrying capacity (which would happen to be the same effect as Ant Haul, and could allow for a good argument that they shouldn't stack). No, Muleback Cords let the wearer "treats his Strength score as 8 higher than normal when determining his carrying capacity". Now if you've looked into carrying capacity before, you almost certainly know that "adding 10 to your Str quadruples your CC", while "adding 5 to your Str doubles your CC". And if you're guessing that "adding 8 to your Str triples your CC", then...





Str
Str Hvy
Str+8 Hvy
Mult.


6
60
175
2.9166


8
80
230
2.8750


10
100
300
3.0000


12
130
400
3.0769


14
175
520
2.9714


16
230
700
3.0434


18
300
920
3.0666


20
400
1200
3.0000


22
520
1600
3.0769


24
700
2080
2.9714


26
920
2800
3.0434


28
1200
3680
3.0666


30
1600
4800
3.0000






...you'd be right at a few scores, and so close to being right on the rest that you can taste it. BUT because you cannot say that "+8 Str for CC" is the same as "triple CC" at all levels of Str, or even most levels of Str (even though it's very clearly extremely close all the time), then you can't say that Muleback Cords have the same effect as a continuous Ant Haul spell, and thus they should stack.

This is also a fun time to point out that - now that we've established that Muleback Cords and a continuous Ant Haul spell (or the Heavyload Belt) do basically the exact same thing - the Muleback Cords cost half as much as the Heavyload Belt.

[Crake]

Technically, no, and it's a giant cluster****. So starting out: Ant Haul is a spell that triples your carrying capacity, and doesn't interact with any other aspect of your strength score. Furthermore, Bull's Strength (and spells like it giving an enhancement bonus to Strength) affect every aspect of your Strength modifier, but don't affect your Strength Score for the purposes of carrying capacity. So if you were to make an item that affects only Carrying Capacity, basing it on Ant Haul (and using Ant Haul in the item creation) makes sense. And yet...Muleback Cords are crafted by casting Bull's Strength, for some reason.

Citation needed?

[AvatarVecna]

Citation needed?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores/


Temporary Bonuses: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense.

Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.

Basically, a permanent bonus (defined as "a bonus lasting more than 24 hours) effectively counts toward every possible use of that attribute (I think including qualifying for feats and the like), while a temporary bonus (defined as "anything that isn't considered a permanent bonus yet") only counts towards a limited list of things that attribute affects. Carrying Capacity is not listed among the statistics that a Temporary Bonus to Strength would affect, so it's not. Now, slight caveat to what I said: if you somehow found a way to get Bull's Strength to last more than 24 hours, then for the time between "24 hours has passed" and "the spell has ended", Bull's Strength would in fact increase Carrying Capacity, but I think they only way to make Bull's Strength last that long is some high-level Mythic crap. This is why the stat-boosting items have a line about "this is temporary for the first 24 hours", because even though you can look at the bonus and say "that's going to last for as long as I have the belt on", and could easily say that the bonus is permanent while worn, it's not mechanically a Permanent Bonus until you've had it on for 24 hours. That rule in those items isn't a specific rule regarding those items, it's a reminder about the general rule of temporary/permanent bonuses.

[Crake]

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores/



Basically, a permanent bonus (defined as "a bonus lasting more than 24 hours) effectively counts toward every possible use of that attribute (I think including qualifying for feats and the like), while a temporary bonus (defined as "anything that isn't considered a permanent bonus yet") only counts towards a limited list of things that attribute affects. Carrying Capacity is not listed among the statistics that a Temporary Bonus to Strength would affect, so it's not. Now, slight caveat to what I said: if you somehow found a way to get Bull's Strength to last more than 24 hours, then for the time between "24 hours has passed" and "the spell has ended", Bull's Strength would in fact increase Carrying Capacity, but I think they only way to make Bull's Strength last that long is some high-level Mythic crap. This is why the stat-boosting items have a line about "this is temporary for the first 24 hours", because even though you can look at the bonus and say "that's going to last for as long as I have the belt on", and could easily say that the bonus is permanent while worn, it's not mechanically a Permanent Bonus until you've had it on for 24 hours. That rule in those items isn't a specific rule regarding those items, it's a reminder about the general rule of temporary/permanent bonuses.

That's a very strange reading of it. Nothing really suggests that's a limited list. If it was strength checks are not included, and any feat or special ability based on strength would likewise not be included. To me that reads as a simple list of things to note when gaining a temporary increase to your strength score.

Consider it this way: Imagine you had an ability that changed your reflex to say, wisdom. Reflex temporary bonuses grant initiative bonuses, but it's not included on the wisdom temporary bonus list. Does that mean I wouldn't get a bonus to initiative from temporary wisdom bonuses? I'd say you would.

Honestly, your premise relies on that list being a limited list, but I just don't see it as such. Nowhere does it use any sort of limiting language at all, and honestly, I would find it really strange if a DM were to tell me that casting bulls strength doesn't increase my carrying capacity.

[AvatarVecna]

That's a very strange reading of it. Nothing really suggests that's a limited list. If it was strength checks are not included, and any feat or special ability based on strength would likewise not be included. To me that reads as a simple list of things to note when gaining a temporary increase to your strength score.

Consider it this way: Imagine you had an ability that changed your reflex to say, wisdom. Reflex temporary bonuses grant initiative bonuses, but it's not included on the wisdom temporary bonus list. Does that mean I wouldn't get a bonus to initiative from temporary wisdom bonuses? I'd say you would.

Honestly, your premise relies on that list being a limited list, but I just don't see it as such. Nowhere does it use any sort of limiting language at all, and honestly, I would find it really strange if a DM were to tell me that casting bulls strength doesn't increase my carrying capacity.

Nothing really suggests it's a limited list other than "if if isn't a limited list, there's literally no point in making a distinction between temporary and permanent bonuses at all, and since that's a difference they've made sure to highlight in multiple places, and they've invented a new spell to cover this theoretically lost aspect of Strength boosting, that's probably their intention with this separation". The fact is, there's two kinds of ability bonuses: there's permanent ones (which last at least 24 hours, and "modify all skills and statistics as appropriate"), and temporary (which has a list of what it applies to). If Temporary Bonuses apply to everything, there's literally no difference between Temporary and Permanent bonuses, and thus no reason to differentiate between them.

You're welcome to your dumb reading where "here's the list of things a temporary bonus applies to means" means "temporary bonuses apply to the things on this list, and also to things not on this list if you feel like they should", but that doesn't change the RAW. Unless you've got an FAQ/Errata quote (I'm to understand those are taken more seriously for PF than for 3.5), the RAW remains unchanged. But even then, if you could at least find a quote from the developers about how CC got left off the list for some stupid reason (they forgot CC is an aspect of Str, or they were trying to save on page-space), then that would at least indicate that the Rules As Intended should let temporary bonuses apply to CC, but if you don't even have that, and all you really have is your opinion that it should apply, you're perfectly allowed to make a houserule, or go play 3.5

[Vaern]

You're misreading that entire section. It's referring to bonus as a positive ability score modifier, not to an increase to the ability score itself. Otherwise, temporary bonuses to ability scores would be significantly more powerful.
For example, it says that a temporary constitution bonus gives you hit points equal to the temporary bonus times your hit dice. By your interpretation, that a temporary bonus refers to an increase to the ability score rather than an increase to the modifier, Bear's Endurance would grant hit points equal to four times your hit dice. Spells that increase mental ability scores would add their +4 bonus to the DCs of your saving throws. Two-handed weapons gain a bonus to damage rolls equal to 1 1/2 your strength bonus, which would be +6 from Bull's Strength. This is simply not the case, as the section uses "bonus" to refer to a positive change to your modifier and not to your score.

Carrying capacity is determined by your strength score on a point-by-point basis; it is independent of your strength bonus. That is why it isn't listed as a benefit for strength bonuses.

And as far as having a spell that increases carrying capacity without affecting strength goes, it's significantly more likely that the write it simply because carrying capacity tends to be a major problem for characters, especially spellcasters, before they have access to some sort of extradimensional storage or strength enhancement. That's why it's a first-level spell with a much more limited effect.

[Crake]

Nothing really suggests it's a limited list other than "if if isn't a limited list, there's literally no point in making a distinction between temporary and permanent bonuses at all, and since that's a difference they've made sure to highlight in multiple places, and they've invented a new spell to cover this theoretically lost aspect of Strength boosting, that's probably their intention with this separation". The fact is, there's two kinds of ability bonuses: there's permanent ones (which last at least 24 hours, and "modify all skills and statistics as appropriate"), and temporary (which has a list of what it applies to). If Temporary Bonuses apply to everything, there's literally no difference between Temporary and Permanent bonuses, and thus no reason to differentiate between them.

You're welcome to your dumb reading where "here's the list of things a temporary bonus applies to means" means "temporary bonuses apply to the things on this list, and also to things not on this list if you feel like they should", but that doesn't change the RAW. Unless you've got an FAQ/Errata quote (I'm to understand those are taken more seriously for PF than for 3.5), the RAW remains unchanged. But even then, if you could at least find a quote from the developers about how CC got left off the list for some stupid reason (they forgot CC is an aspect of Str, or they were trying to save on page-space), then that would at least indicate that the Rules As Intended should let temporary bonuses apply to CC, but if you don't even have that, and all you really have is your opinion that it should apply, you're perfectly allowed to make a houserule, or go play 3.5

Okay, here is a more direct and obvious example of why reading it as a limited list makes no sense:

A temporary bonus to strength gives you bonus weapon damage if the attack uses strength.
A temporary bonus to dex does not, because it's not listed, even if you have any ability (like unchained rogue's level 3 finesse training).

[AvatarVecna]

Okay, here is a more direct and obvious example of why reading it as a limited list makes no sense:

A temporary bonus to strength gives you bonus weapon damage if the attack uses strength.
A temporary bonus to dex does not, because it's not listed, even if you have any ability (like unchained rogue's level 3 finesse training).

RAW doesn't make sense, news at 11. Doesn't change the fact that the RAW is what it is. You can argue til you're blue in the face that that's not what it's meant to be, but until you've got quotes, then this:


This is a bonus to the stat lasting more than 24 hours. It applies to all things that stat applies to.

and this


This is any bonus to a stat that doesn't last long enough to become a "permanent bonus". It applies to this list of things.

Is a very clearcut case of "temporary bonuses don't apply to everything".

[Mordaedil]

I don't think you need to make a huge deal out of it, temporary strength bonus from Bull's Strength should increase carrying capacity for the time period it applies and if you exceed your max carry weight when the spell expires, you are crushed and start to take damage, until you can reapply a bonus to aid with carrying.

The ruling seems more intent to hinder carrying heavy loads while "fast-traveling" between cities, not intent on hindering you carrying a log from one part of town to the other.