Is Resilient (Con) + War Caster Necessary for Combat Optimization?

[Expected]

I'm planning a Half-Elf Sorlock with 10-14-15-8-12-17 and if I don't take Resilient (Con), I can start with 16 Con (and 8 Str) and get War Caster with my second ASI/feat. Is it necessary to have both? If I only have one, is that still optimal for combat?

[DeadMech]

Short answer no.

One or the other is usually a good idea for a caster. Both is overkill. Either have their upsides but I generally lean towards resilient con outside of situations like sorcadin where I want war caster so I can shield while I shield (and sword). But I'm sure everyone has their own preferences.

You'll usually be better off using your second ASI for something else.

[hymer]

I'd be considering which spells you choose (and use), and how your group plays as a whole. If you are heavily into concentration spells, and your group play so that you expect to make regular concentration saves, then taking both may well be optimal. But if either or both of those things aren't true, then the value of having both drops accordingly.

Btw, have you considered starting as Sorcerer, so you get proficiency in Con saves from the beginning?

[Contrast]

Btw, have you considered starting as Sorcerer, so you get proficiency in Con saves from the beginning?

This is a pretty important consideration.

I honestly feel both is a little overkill most of the time when improving you main stat is pretty important (I'm currently playing a level 4 var human bard and didn't feel the need to take either at level 1 or level 4). I also feel people often put too much value on getting res con early in a build - you have time to get it later on when it represents more than a +2. That said, it gets more important the smaller your party is as you're more likely to get hit when you can't hide behind allies as easily and its more important that you don't waste your actions in terms of action economy.

More generally this goes for all spellcasters - think carefully about your spell selections and try to ensure concentration spells aren't the only weapons in your toolkit.

[JellyPooga]

Short answer no.

One or the other is usually a good idea for a caster. Both is overkill. Either have their upsides but I generally lean towards resilient con outside of situations like sorcadin where I want war caster so I can shield while I shield (and sword). But I'm sure everyone has their own preferences.

You'll usually be better off using your second ASI for something else.

I don't know that taking both is necessarily overkill; if you're planning on spending much time in close proximity to your enemies and are expecting to take a lot of damage AND you're concerned about Con Saves other than concentration (you're adventuring in jungle or swamp, or you expect to fight a lot of things that inflict poison damage, for example), then I can definitely see the value in both (or starting as Sorcerer for the proficiency, indeed).

[Expected]

I have considered it, but I'd like to have proficiencies in both Con and Wis saves as well as even ability scores after feats and that was difficult (or next to impossible) starting Sorcerer. Unless Wis saves are not that important for a Sorlock? In that case, I'd start as a Sorcerer.

[hymer]

I have considered it, but I'd like to have proficiencies in both Con and Wis saves as well as even ability scores after feats and that was difficult (or next to impossible) starting Sorcerer. Unless Wis saves are not that important for a Sorlock? In that case, I'd start as a Sorcerer.

Fair enough. Just wanted to be sure you were aware of the option.
I don't think wis saves are any more or less important for sorlocks than they are for anyone else.

[Keravath]

I started my sorlock as a vHuman and took resilient con to start with. I went shadow sorcerer/hexblade so dark vision isn't an issue.

As for what is needed, most of the time one or the other is sufficient for a ranged character that has concentration spells they need to maintain. If you are a playing melee, will be concentrating on spells and expect to get hit frequently then both would be ideal but at least one (probably war caster for the spell casting ability while both hands are full) is critical.

[sambojin]

It's kind of one or the other. Since Sorlock is still kind of strapped on "spells known", and it's way less fun to play it as a purely combat optimized class, I'd say grab on or the other at 4th or 8th.

But this is from a Moon Druid's perspective. Who gets spells smacked out of them as par-for-the-course, but never uses a single one for self-heals.

Getting concentration broken doesn't happen "all-the-time", even then. Stuff misses. Stuff does very little damage. Stuff just locks you down. Sometimes you roll fairly well.

You getting f'd by conditions and then smack down will happen more often than you losing your precious concentration. And if you do, there's usually a party member to bail you out on that. Sorlock, concentration? Yep. You do the thing that makes the thing that could hit you not do that thing. With avengeance.

Grab one of them. Certainly not both. Maybe at lvl8-10, grab one. You're just being silly otherwise. Or you should have rolled a Moon Druid. Maybe with a level of Monk.

[Dalebert]

War caster isn't justified just to help with concentration. Take it only if you will benefit from the other parts. If you're doing sorcerer anyway, just take it as your first level. That's one of the nicest perk of sorcerers--con saves.

[darknite]

It depends on what you mean for Combat Optimization. Is your caster the kind that jumps into melee with sword & shield, bringing up Haste and casting Shield as needed? Then the answer is, 'yes'. Is your caster the kind that hangs in the back, inside a Globe of Invul tossing fireballs out of their Staff of the Magi? Then the answer is, 'not so much'.

[Galactkaktus]

I would probably do
1st level Sorc 19Cha 16Con 15dex 1 st asi 20 Cha 16Con 16Dex and just not take any of those feats until my second asi pick. Then i would decide do i want wis saves(mostly do i forsee alot of mages with cc spells since most of them target wis) if no i would ignore res(wis).

The main reason to why i would do that is that your race gives an even amount of points to your attributes and thus doesn't change that the sum of your attributes(especially the three highest) is an even number so i would need two half feats to make it even again.

[RSP]

One thing to consider: you can get the ability to cast while holding your pact weapon through the Improved Pact Weapon invocation, if going 3 levels into Warlock. If doing this, I’d probably consider the character fine with Resilient (Con), and no Warcaster.

If you intend to be a frontliner while maintaining Conc spells, I’d plan on getting as close to autopassing the min DC (DC 10), as possible. Con 16 and proficiency gets you pretty close. At level 5, you autopass on a d20 roll of 4 or higher, so passing on 85% of Checks.

Warcaster would help that, but if you don’t need it’s other benefits, compare taking Warcaster to just increasing your Con to 18 with that ASI instead (+HP plus the increased Con Save which helps with more than just Conc saves).

[Dark Schneider]

Take only one. Taking both is too much IMO. Use the other feat for some other and get a more flexible character.

[jiriku]

It really depends on what you have in mind.

I have a sorcadin build that gets 40% of its DPR from it concentration slot. Without that concentration spell, combat effectiveness drops way off unless I recast it after losing it -- which depletes spells I'd rather use on smites or save for later encounters, and further hits my combat tempo by denying my damage from my primary attack while I recast. I am also running a front-line character who only has the third-best AC in the party, so I expect to get hit (and make concentration saves) frequently. For that character, it's worth it -- although I took sorcerer first to get native Con save proficiency and save the feat slot.

I also run a Lore College bard with neither feat. For the bard, I hang in the back, avoid drawing attention to myself, and if I cast a concentration spell at all it's generally something that disables almost every foe on the battlefield. I barely ever get attacked while concentrating on a spell. My biggest problem is enemy skill checks and saving throws, not incoming damage, so I focus ASI's on boosting Charisma.

[Quietus]

I'm planning a Half-Elf Sorlock with 10-14-15-8-12-17 and if I don't take Resilient (Con), I can start with 16 Con (and 8 Str) and get War Caster with my second ASI/feat. Is it necessary to have both? If I only have one, is that still optimal for combat?

Worth remembering, unless you have houserules on the matter, you need at least 13 strength to multiclass into or out of Paladin.

[Dark Schneider]

I'd say in general:
- For casters Resilient , so they take proficiency in CON saves.
- For battlers War Caster, so they can cast with both hands occupied.

In your case, for Paladin purposes, War Caster.

[jdolch]

Where did the OP say he wants to multiclass Paladin? I mean it's probably not a bad idea to get 2 levels of Paladin and yes, then you need 13 STR and 13 CHA.

But speaking of Paladin. Do you have one in your Party, that is going to reach at least level 6? If yes, you get his CHAmod to your Saves if you stay close to him (10ft) due to Aura of Protection.

[Citan]

I'm planning a Half-Elf Sorlock with 10-14-15-8-12-17 and if I don't take Resilient (Con), I can start with 16 Con (and 8 Str) and get War Caster with my second ASI/feat. Is it necessary to have both? If I only have one, is that still optimal for combat?
Hi! :)

I'd be considering which spells you choose (and use), and how your group plays as a whole. If you are heavily into concentration spells, and your group play so that you expect to make regular concentration saves, then taking both may well be optimal. But if either or both of those things aren't true, then the value of having both drops accordingly.

Btw, have you considered starting as Sorcerer, so you get proficiency in Con saves from the beginning?


I don't know that taking both is necessarily overkill; if you're planning on spending much time in close proximity to your enemies and are expecting to take a lot of damage AND you're concerned about Con Saves other than concentration (you're adventuring in jungle or swamp, or you expect to fight a lot of things that inflict poison damage, for example), then I can definitely see the value in both (or starting as Sorcerer for the proficiency, indeed).
I think both sum up the reflexion well enough, and...

I would probably do
1st level Sorc 19Cha 16Con 15dex 1 st asi 20 Cha 16Con 16Dex and just not take any of those feats until my second asi pick. Then i would decide do i want wis saves(mostly do i forsee alot of mages with cc spells since most of them target wis) if no i would ignore res(wis).

The main reason to why i would do that is that your race gives an even amount of points to your attributes and thus doesn't change that the sum of your attributes(especially the three highest) is an even number so i would need two half feats to make it even again.
I'll 100% back this.
With starting Constitution proficiency, and considering WIS saves are scarce at low levels, it should give you ample time to think and analyse how you play and how your party relies on you, to decide at level 8 based on experience so far.

[NaughtyTiger]

Another minor point.
Con saves are useful from level 1.
Wis saves become "mandatory" about level 6-7. Because prior to that you are battling non-magical things.

Depending on how long you expect to grind 6-8:
Starting with sorc for the Con save,
ASI at 4,
suffer low wisdom saves until 8 -> resilient (Wis)

[bid]

I'm planning a Half-Elf Sorlock with 10-14-15-8-12-17
You get nothing from Cha17 unless you plan on a Cha half-feat, start Con16 / Cha16.

Now, warcaster is becomes useful as you find more use.
- concentration spells dropping? useful because your concentration holds.
- shield offhand from hexblade patron? useful because your hands are full.
- enemies will ignore you? useful because you can AO them with a spell.
If none of those occur, warcaster won't be used at all.
I'd push Cha18 early and see how bad it is before committing to that feat.

Starting sorcerer for Con save is a good plan, get resilient(Wis) by level 12.

[MeimuHakurei]

First of all Resilient (Con) is pointless on a Sorcerer since they're already proficient with Con saves by default.

Secondly, it's mainly relevant for casters who heavily rely on concentration-based spells, which is most Druids and gish builds. Elemental Adept and Spell Sniper are more useful to blasters who won't be in the thick of battle as often and a few martially inclined casters such as Hexblades would want feats like Sentinel or PAM/GWM.

It also depends on what attributes you need - maxing out your save DC is a higher priority than War Caster on a battlefield controller. But it's fine to grab a lot of feats on a Moon Druid in particular since you don't need any stat for viability as the majority of your good spells don't care about your save DC or spell attack roll.