Messing with Metamagic: Some houserule ideas for 3.5

[PhantasyPen]

Hey Playground!

So, you know what's really cool? Metamagic feats. You know what's not cool? Metamagic feat costs.

So currently, I'm looking at two different ways I might want to handle metamagic feats, and I have a question for you playgrounders at the end.

For the first method, I'm probably not going to make any big changes for how metamagic feats work, but instead, I am going to remove the restriction on metamagic limiters that they cannot reduce metamagic costs below +1 spell level. This is probably the least obstructive way to do things, but it still forces people to have to, you know, buy metamagic reducers with their feats.

With the second method, metamagic costs are all free, and you can apply them to spells spontaneously, but you can only use them a number of times per day equal to 7 - the metamagic spell level adjustment.

Now, ignoring the two methods above, instead of introducing a new houserule, I was thinking about introducing one of the variant rules in the UA: specifically, the one where instead of changing the level of the spell, the metamagic cost determines the maximum level of the spell you can apply it to (so Quicken Spell, with a metamagic cost of +4, can only be applied to spells of 5th-level and lower, while Searing Spell, with a cost of +1, can be applied on anything up to an 8th-level spell) Before I use this rule however, I wanted to know if anyone else has tried it, and what their experiences were with this rule variant.

[King of Nowhere]

Casters are already powerful enough without need to further help them by giving free cheese. If you want to do that, make sure to give boons to martial types too.

[noob]

Casters are already powerful enough without need to further help them by giving free cheese. If you want to do that, make sure to give boons to martial types too.

Like allowing the fighter to swim in the street and mug people even when the street is empty and comparable epic nonsense.

[Cosi]

One metamagic fix idea I quite liked was that instead of using a higher level slot, you could apply metamagic for free as long as the adjusted spell level wasn't higher than the highest spell level you could cast. So a 7th level Wizard could cast a Sculpted fireball out of a 3rd level spell slot, but couldn't cast an Empowered fireball at all. That's similar to what you're proposing, but I'm unclear on whether your proposal would allow Quickened 5th level spells at 9th level (I would expect not, as that would be quite deadly).

In general, I would be cautious about changing the rules for stacking level adjustment reduction. Even ignoring questions of negative adjustment, adding three or four force multiplying metamagic effects to a scorching ray or enervation turns it into a OHKO.


Casters are already powerful enough without need to further help them by giving free cheese. If you want to do that, make sure to give boons to martial types too.

Metamagic itself is not really cheesy. Most metamagic effects are bad, overcosted, or both. No one goes around dropping Widened fireballs or Trans-dimensional acid fogs. There are a few metamagic effects that are quite powerful -- notably Quicken and a Persistent, but also stacking the ones that increase the damage output of a single spell -- but overall Metamagic is fairly weak. As a result, it's probably better to directly address the broken abilities, rather than trying to balance the whole system around a set of nerfs that bring them in line. Doing the later is a problem people frequently encounter in their suggestions to "balance" casters.

For example, one change that I saw as a proposed fix to Persistent Spell was to make it (and Extend Spell, which it stacked with) move spells' duration range up one step. So 1 round/level -> 1 minute/level -> 10 minutes/level -> 1 hour/level. So you couldn't do things like having all-day wraithstrike or divine power as easily.

[DarkSoul]

... the variant rules in the UA: specifically, the one where instead of changing the level of the spell, the metamagic cost determines the maximum level of the spell you can apply it to (so Quicken Spell, with a metamagic cost of +4, can only be applied to spells of 5th-level and lower, while Searing Spell, with a cost of +1, can be applied on anything up to an 8th-level spell) Before I use this rule however, I wanted to know if anyone else has tried it, and what their experiences were with this rule variant.


One metamagic fix idea I quite liked was that instead of using a higher level slot, you could apply metamagic for free as long as the adjusted spell level wasn't higher than the highest spell level you could cast. So a 7th level Wizard could cast a Sculpted fireball out of a 3rd level spell slot, but couldn't cast an Empowered fireball at all.

<snip>

For example, one change that I saw as a proposed fix to Persistent Spell was to make it (and Extend Spell, which it stacked with) move spells' duration range up one step. So 1 round/level -> 1 minute/level -> 10 minutes/level -> 1 hour/level. So you couldn't do things like having all-day wraithstrike or divine power as easily.I think a combination of these fixes would work well. I might even implement them myself.

[noob]

Trans-dimensional acid fogs
There is in fact cases where that specific spell is awesome.
Imagine casting that spell on someone with a bag of holding?
What is in that bag of holding is soon going to not be my problem anymore.(the undead, the scrolls and so on)

[heavyfuel]

A while ago there was a thread on house ruling the fair cost of metamagic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?553324-Houserule-thought-experiment-Fair-costs-of-metamagic).

It might interest you, and I've been using it for a couple of months with great success. Casters can't ignore metamagic costs with reducers, but aren't forced to over pay for modified spells. Great house rule, 9/10, would recommend.


Imagine casting that spell on someone with a bag of holding?
What is in that bag of holding is soon going to not be my problem anymore.(the undead, the scrolls and so on)

Trandimensional Spells explicitly only affect creatures. The undead won't be a problem anymore, but it will have no effect on scrolls and other objects.

[noob]

Trandimensional Spells explicitly only affect creatures. The undead won't be a problem anymore, but it will have no effect on scrolls and other objects.

It is even better than I did think it was.

[PhantasyPen]

Casters are already powerful enough without need to further help them by giving free cheese. If you want to do that, make sure to give boons to martial types too.

I mean, 99% of the houserules I currently use (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1To6wEgnR3KX39SbdHBHKovnfMx4YPfQT9XhnPRQ7zpE/edit?usp=sharing) are about making martials better. But I also need to focus on making the game as a whole more fun, and Metamagic feats are unquestionably fun, but they are often blocked off by ridiculous spell costs, and are remarkably restrictive if you happen to want to play a spontaneous caster.

[Mike Miller]

I have used the UA variant without even realizing it was a printed variant! I came up with that idea on my own. It has worked well in our group. I would recommend it.

[Mordaedil]

If you use spellpoints rules, you can always allow casters to overspend normal allowed spellpoints to metamagic the heck out of their spells, over and above what they normally have access to (but at appropriate cost anyway)

[King of Nowhere]

Metamagic itself is not really cheesy. Most metamagic effects are bad, overcosted, or both. No one goes around dropping Widened fireballs or Trans-dimensional acid fogs. There are a few metamagic effects that are quite powerful -- notably Quicken and a Persistent, but also stacking the ones that increase the damage output of a single spell -- but overall Metamagic is fairly weak. As a result, it's probably better to directly address the broken abilities, rather than trying to balance the whole system around a set of nerfs that bring them in line. Doing the later is a problem people frequently encounter in their suggestions to "balance" casters.

For example, one change that I saw as a proposed fix to Persistent Spell was to make it (and Extend Spell, which it stacked with) move spells' duration range up one step. So 1 round/level -> 1 minute/level -> 10 minutes/level -> 1 hour/level. So you couldn't do things like having all-day wraithstrike or divine power as easily.

That descriptor (not being really cheesy, in fact being bad or overcosted, with a ffew exceptions that are quite powerful) can be applied to ANY game mechanic.
So if you wanted to buff metamagic you should be fine so long as exclude those things that already need no buffing.

That said, I don't like much when you can take something powerful without losing anything. I think limitations and prices of power - with all the tradeoffs that entails - are much more interesting than power itself, and metamagic without cost is exactly that. empower and maximize would be very strong if applied without any level increase.
Although, if it is also a limited number of times per day, then it would be probably ok.

[Mike Miller]

That descriptor (not being really cheesy, in fact being bad or overcosted, with a ffew exceptions that are quite powerful) can be applied to ANY game mechanic.
So if you wanted to buff metamagic you should be fine so long as exclude those things that already need no buffing.

That said, I don't like much when you can take something powerful without losing anything. I think limitations and prices of power - with all the tradeoffs that entails - are much more interesting than power itself, and metamagic without cost is exactly that. empower and maximize would be very strong if applied without any level increase.
Although, if it is also a limited number of times per day, then it would be probably ok.

The limitation of both max spell level and uses per day worked well for me.