Can Evil Characters Have Good Manners?

[Bartmanhomer]

I know that most evil characters are jerks but what if there's an evil character who have good manners. (How to act properly at dinner or any other setting where they use manners.) I know it very rare to have a character like that but it is possible? :confused:

[Koo Rehtorb]

Alignment has nothing to do with manners.

[LordCdrMilitant]

Yes. Noble lords almost certainly have a mastery of ettiquette, and can easily be quite evil.

I don't think it's uncommon at all for the villains to be well mannered.

Heroes also frequently have no sense of manners.

[2D8HP]

I know that most evil characters are jerks but what if there's an evil character who have good manners. (How to act properly at dinner or any other setting where they use manners.) I know it very rare to have a character like that but it is possible? :confused:


Not only possible, but it has a long history (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FauxAffablyEvil)

But, I hope this isn't too gauche, perhaps it's best to call an expert in....

RED FEL!

RED FEL!

RED FEL!

[Morty]

I would say so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html), yes. The archetype of an outwardly courteous black-hearted villain is as old as dirt.

[Knaight]

I would say so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html), yes. The archetype of an outwardly courteous black-hearted villain is as old as dirt.

So is the history of actual people who fit the mold pretty well. Manners can be a shield as much as anything else, and a really useful shield for the particularly monstrous.

[KorvinStarmast]

Don Rafael Montero, from the movie The Mask of Zorro (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120746/). Impeccable class and manners, fine swordsman, impeccably dressed. The villain. (One of my favorite movie villains ever). Yeah, evil.

[hotflungwok]

Etiquette is a set of rules that dictate behavior, laws if you would. A LE character could have truly excellent manners, followed to the letter. Dolores Umbridge maybe? A NE character would probably have decent manners, enough to function normally in society, but maybe not all the time. It's the CE characters who would have bad manners, putting their feet up on tables, wearing white after Labor Day, burying entire families alive, etc.

[Maelynn]

I would even take it so far as to say that I'd sooner mistrust someone with impeccable manners and a gracious and courteous attitude...

No, seriously. Every time in films or series or even books, whenever there's a character who expertly displays that kind of behaviour and is positively charming... they turn out to be the bad guy. The hero always have this little bit of roughness around the edges that make them relatable and likeable, the bad guy is all grease and silver tongues.

[Nifft]

I would even take it so far as to say that I'd sooner mistrust someone with impeccable manners and a gracious and courteous attitude...

No, seriously. Every time in films or series or even books, whenever there's a character who expertly displays that kind of behaviour and is positively charming... they turn out to be the bad guy. The hero always have this little bit of roughness around the edges that make them relatable and likeable, the bad guy is all grease and silver tongues.

Sure, but that's just Hollywood pandering to American anti-intellectualism.

It's like how European accents are usually evil in action films -- especially the tricky disguised Brit who pretends to be an ignorant, innocent, accent-free hostage before revealing his true evil nature by evilly quoting Shakespeare in erudite Received Pronunciation.

[dmteeter]

Having good manners and being evil are not remotely related.

Almost every person interviewed said Ted Bundy was Polite and seemed perfectly normal and we all know how that turned out.

In fact if you look through comic books, literature, real life, and even movies the bad guys have a long history of being polite, well mannered sociopaths so absolutely i'd say it's not only possible but probable that your evil character would have good manners.

[Knaight]

Sure, but that's just Hollywood pandering to American anti-intellectualism.


Intellectualism and manners are two entirely different things - inasmuch as manners is tied to anything else it's a class signifier, and while aristocrats are fond of posturing about their superior intelligence the actual superior intelligence has a tendency not to be there.

Or, a little less coyly - there are some deeply stupid well mannered people.

[Lord Torath]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html)! He is the very soul of courtesy, at least as long as things are going his way.

[Nifft]

Intellectualism and manners are two entirely different things - inasmuch as manners is tied to anything else it's a class signifier, and while aristocrats are fond of posturing about their superior intelligence the actual superior intelligence has a tendency not to be there.

Or, a little less coyly - there are some deeply stupid well mannered people.

Sure, and that's why the combo of good manners + foreign accent + high-class is the action movie dog-whistle, and not just good manners.

Good manners can be used by anti-intellectual films when the manners are about respecting the traditions of the target audience, and the intellectual antagonist is presented as defying or disrespecting those traditions.


But I think your last sentence is talking about the IRL intelligence levels of manners-knowers, and that isn't particularly relevant to anything Hollywood produces.

[Geddy2112]

As many have said, the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Proper etiquette is completely and utterly independent of alignment. If it had any bearing on alignment at all, I would wager that it would be more law and chaos than good and evil. Chaotic evil can be genteel, lawful good can be brusque, and every permutation in between.

[Maelynn]

Sure, but that's just Hollywood pandering to American anti-intellectualism.

You keep referring to Hollywood and intelligence/class in this and your other post. First off, not every film/series/book is Hollywood, try looking past your own country and realise there's many other sources and a long history of villain stereotypes. Richelieu, Moriarty, Dracula, hell even Sauron when he was still living among the Eldar, these are all characters from European literature that fit the description. Hollywood be damned.
Second, manners do not depend on intelligence or class. There are many mannerless intellectuals and many well-mannered simple folk. Trying to defend an opinion by stringing those together doesn't hold water.

[Knaight]

Second, manners do not depend on intelligence or class. There are many mannerless intellectuals and many well-mannered simple folk. Trying to defend an opinion by stringing those together doesn't hold water.

There's a definite link to class though - if only because the ritualized interactions of higher classes are afforded the term "manners", whereas the ritualized interactions of lower classes aren't.

[Nifft]

No, seriously. Every time in films or series or even books, whenever there's a character who expertly displays that kind of behaviour and is positively charming... they turn out to be the bad guy. The hero always have this little bit of roughness around the edges that make them relatable and likeable, the bad guy is all grease and silver tongues.


You keep referring to Hollywood and intelligence/class in this and your other post. I haven't seen nearly as many CLASSY = EVIL stereotypes in non-Hollywood, non-action films.

You brought up films, so that's what I'm talking about. See your above-quoted post, with bold in case you missed what you wrote the first time through.


Second, manners do not depend on intelligence or class. There are many mannerless intellectuals and many well-mannered simple folk. Trying to defend an opinion by stringing those together doesn't hold water.

Gosh, if only someone talked about that.

Oh wait, I did:
Sure, and that's why the combo of good manners + foreign accent + high-class is the action movie dog-whistle, and not just good manners.

Good manners can be used by anti-intellectual films when the manners are about respecting the traditions of the target audience, and the intellectual antagonist is presented as defying or disrespecting those traditions.


But I think your last sentence is talking about the IRL intelligence levels of manners-knowers, and that isn't particularly relevant to anything Hollywood produces. Hope that helps you to understand my position a bit better.

[Koo Rehtorb]

is a fighter more or less polite than a wizard?

[Nifft]

is a fighter more or less polite than a wizard?

Is it bad manners to bring a knife to a gun fight?

[Anonymouswizard]

I would even take it so far as to say that I'd sooner mistrust someone with impeccable manners and a gracious and courteous attitude...

No, seriously. Every time in films or series or even books, whenever there's a character who expertly displays that kind of behaviour and is positively charming... they turn out to be the bad guy. The hero always have this little bit of roughness around the edges that make them relatable and likeable, the bad guy is all grease and silver tongues.

Having consumed a lot of English media, in our case the opposite us likely to be true. While you do get well mannered villains, somebody without manners is highly likely to be the villain, or at least up to no good.

Now the hero doesn't need perfect manners, but they will at the very least be decent.

[NovenFromTheSun]

"Put your feet of the table Billy, just because we're cannibals doesn't mean we're savages."

[Lunali]

The best way to do evil is to appear to do good.

[TheYell]

Not to mention every Bond villain from the original books. Goldfinger fit in perfectly except for wearing a tailored golf suit with matching socks, and Le Chypre's only gaffe in black tie society was he used a nasal inhaler at the baccarat table. Emilio Largo was the king of Nassau café culture while on his mission, and Hugo Drax was actually a member at the Blades gambling club, where the only requirements were 100,000 pounds in capital and manners of a gentleman. Dr. No gave Bond a dinner party before torturing him to death (fail, so sorry) and there was Blofeld who would execute a thief in the middle of the meeting without breaking his agenda.

[Red Fel]

Not only possible, but it has a long history (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FauxAffablyEvil)

But, I hope this isn't too gauche, perhaps it's best to call an expert in....

RED FEL!

RED FEL!

RED FEL!


A proper invitation is never gauche, and always appropriate. Attendance should be prompt. If a dinner jacket is worn, a pocket square is recommended.


I know that most evil characters are jerks but what if there's an evil character who have good manners. (How to act properly at dinner or any other setting where they use manners.) I know it very rare to have a character like that but it is possible? :confused:

... "very rare," you say? I daresay you wound me, good sir or madam! Manners should neither be very rare nor alignment-dependant.

To cite two posters in this very thread:


is a fighter more or less polite than a wizard?


As many have said, the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Proper etiquette is completely and utterly independent of alignment. If it had any bearing on alignment at all, I would wager that it would be more law and chaos than good and evil. Chaotic evil can be genteel, lawful good can be brusque, and every permutation in between.

These. Manners have everything to do with a character's upbringing, respect for others, or attempt to affect gentility, and little if anything to do with one's personal views on murder.

Consider one Dr. Hannibal Lecter, a particular idol of mine since childbirth. Here is a man who will know exactly what wine to pair with your liver (typically a red), and in which glass (broad glass for reds, narrow flute for whites), and which fork to use whilst eating your brain (dessert fork if chilled, else dinner fork). Here is a person who is effortlessly polite and civilized, almost to a fault, except when his more beastly nature is provoked - although whether the civility or the savagery is the act is anyone's guess - despite being a cannibal and serial killer, with no moral compass or conscience to speak of.

He may be a terrifying monster, but he's an exceptional dinner guest. I guarantee you he'll have the appropriate pocket square.

[TheYell]

I guarantee you he'll have the appropriate pocket square.

There was this Spanish general who commanded their Blue Division at Leningrad and won the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross from Hitler.

He returned to Spain, where Franco gave him government jobs.

One of which was diplomat to the United Nations in New York in the 1950s.

So he went.

And when he went to dinner parties in America, he wore all his decorations.

ALL of them.

[Necroticplague]

Not sure how this is even a real question. Manners are entirely separate from alignment. The only possible correlation is that’s Sevilla indicates a lack of respect for others, which might lead to being a jerk. However, that same lack of respect can just as easily manifest as the smiling black widow of high society and the politician who offers the world to your face before turning around and offering someone else to step over your corpse for a tax cut as it can for the boorish lout who makes his lack of respect for others life translate into a lack of respect for conduct.

[Mr Beer]

Most of my villains are polite. Murderous but polite.

Their thugs are rude. But they're only thugs.

[Mordaedil]

Often a lot of people insisting on decorum are evil people who can't empathize with others plight.

[Morty]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html)! He is the very soul of courtesy, at least as long as things are going his way.

I think you'll find...


I would say so (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html), yes. The archetype of an outwardly courteous black-hearted villain is as old as dirt.

...that I did.

[TeChameleon]

is a fighter more or less polite than a wizard?

Depends pretty heavily on the player- in my case, the wizard who is my longest-played character is breathtakingly rude, although this is in part because he's a fairly highly-ranked noble, and, to loosely paraphrase Sir pTerry, sure, the common folk can be jerks, but for real incivility you need the nobility. It's also partly because he keeps getting into ridiculous situations and his nerves were never great to begin with, but that's life as a PC :smalltongue:

But yeh, the whole super-suave evil guy goes back a very, very long ways.

[Ninja Bear]

I haven't seen nearly as many CLASSY = EVIL stereotypes in non-Hollywood, non-action films.


"Good manners," "foreign accent," and "high-class bearing" is basically "conspicuous-consumption Bingo" as per Theory of the Leisure Class &c. All you're missing is either a gold toilet seat or a superfluous credential wielded as a discount title of nobility (or even the real thing with authentic foreign-types). The latter is more usual, since the former is not generally considered sufficiently wasteful (since, after all, it has resale value).

The reason it tends to pop up in Hollywood mass-market films and nowhere else is that:

1) playing to conspicuous-consumption stereotypes establishes the villain as economically powerful (therefore credible) and also detestable, meaning that you have much more screen time available for explosions
2) people who are frittering away lots of money on entertainment to go see the obscure non-mass-market films are more likely to have accumulated an unhealthy amount of similar qualities, and as such are unlikely to respond positively to such portrayals (in fact, icky rubes play better as villains)
3) most foreign countries whose cinema you are likely to see (Canada, Western Europe) more strongly associate conspicuous consumption with a "brash American" stereotype or at least historically have done so, and do substitute such portrayals for roughly the same purpose

[Mystral]

I know that most evil characters are jerks but what if there's an evil character who have good manners. (How to act properly at dinner or any other setting where they use manners.) I know it very rare to have a character like that but it is possible? :confused:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AffablyEvil

[tomandtish]

Having consumed a lot of English media, in our case the opposite us likely to be true. While you do get well mannered villains, somebody without manners is highly likely to be the villain, or at least up to no good.

Now the hero doesn't need perfect manners, but they will at the very least be decent.


As I tend to see it in movies, villains tend to cover the extremes on both ends. A villain is more likely to either be extremely well-mannered (well above the average) or extremely ill-mannered (well below the average).

[weckar]

I frankly don't see why it is hard to imagine an Evil character having good manners, let alone good table manners. Are we forgetting the snobby bond villain here? Or the evil aristocrat?

[Mutazoia]

Manners have nothing to do with good or evil. They have to do with upbringing.

[Sermil]

Having consumed a lot of English media, in our case the opposite us likely to be true. While you do get well mannered villains, somebody without manners is highly likely to be the villain, or at least up to no good.

Now the hero doesn't need perfect manners, but they will at the very least be decent.

If we're looking for non-Hollywood villains ... didn't Professor Moriarty have pretty good manners? At least most of the time? At least, he generously allows Holmes enough time to write a note to Watson before (trying to) push Holmes off a cliff.

(Professor-Moriarty-as-written-by-Doyle, I mean, not the endless re-imaginings that followed.)

[Anonymouswizard]

If we're looking for non-Hollywood villains ... didn't Professor Moriarty have pretty good manners? At least most of the time? At least, he generously allows Holmes enough time to write a note to Watson before (trying to) push Holmes off a cliff.

(Professor-Moriarty-as-written-by-Doyle, I mean, not the endless re-imaginings that followed.)

While I was exaggerating for effect, there is the case that villains in English media tend to be either very well mannered (as in at least three times the norm for an American evil Brit), or having no manners at all. The real difference is that we're significantly more likely to have well mannered heroes, unless they are a dirty rotten criminal type of course (in which case they are allowed to be partially uncouth, can't have then too rude or they might appear American ).

[raygun goth]

Depending on situation, one could make a convincing case that "good manners" might very well be a hallmark​ of evil. Especially considering the very concept of "good manners" was cooked up specifically to keep "lower class" people in their place. Same reason the sword had such vicious propaganda behind it being "elegant" and ranged weapons or poison being bad form - it's easier as a member of a wealthy ruling class to defend yourself from a sword than from a sling or poison. All you have to do is label the things that common people have to do as distasteful, and the things you get to do as a member of the ruling class as "tasteful" or "refined," and you have a system that makes it very easy to step on necks and still come up smelling like roses.

The oppressor does not have to get angry. The oppressor does not have to sling mud.Their lives aren't at stake. They set the system up, and "good manners" and "etiquette" are working as intended.

[RedMage125]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Tarquin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html)! He is the very soul of courtesy, at least as long as things are going his way.

I was also going to mention him.

D&D is replete with examples, too. Strahd Von Zarovich is the soul of courtesy. Asmodeus is almost always depicted as urbane and polite. On that note, most archdevils are. Graz'zt isn't so much polite as...seductive, but that's usually a product of good manners. In many D&D novels, Ancient Dragons have that "Bond villain" kind of air, discoursing with the heroes before planning to eat them.

[Nifft]

In many D&D novels, Ancient Dragons have that "Bond villain" kind of air, discoursing with the heroes before planning to eat them.

"Do you expect me to talk?"

"No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to stir-fry!"

[Cluedrew]

Funnily enough in a threat about "Can Evil Characters Have Good Manners?" I feel the need to jump to the defence of good characters with good alignments. Despite some comments about it I think there are several (morally) good archetypes that often have good manner. Mentors, wizards and that straight laced member of the team who has to lighten up for instance. However, one difference I think is there is they tend to have moments where the manners slip. I think it is because the virtues that manners are supposed to represent (hospitality, respect, appreciation and so on) are actually there, so when the virtues slip, the manners slip as well. Evil characters with good manners are however just going through the motions, there is no foundation to shake.

On the completely other end of the conversation I can think of a few reasons why well mannered villains are popular. One I think it is sometimes a bit of a redeeming trait, not all the time. More commonly I think it exists to stretch out the time the hero and villain spend in each other's presence before coming to blows.

[Jay R]

Goldfinger (James Bond)
Richelieu (The Three Musketeers)
Tarquin (The Order of the Stick)
Belloq (Raiders of the Lost Arc)
Marquis de la Tour d'Azyr (Scaramouche - the book)
Marquis de Mainz (Scaramouche - the Stewart Granger movie)
Morden (Babylon 5)
Long John Silver (Treasure Island)
Khan Noonien Singh (Star Trek - the original series)
Don Vito Corleone (The Godfather)
Dolores Umbridge (Harry Potter)
Hannibal Lecter (The Silence of the Lambs)
Ozymandias (Watchmen)
George Wickham (Pride and Prejudice)
Tywin Lannister (Game of Thrones)

Yes.

[FathomsDeep]

There was this Spanish general who commanded their Blue Division at Leningrad and won the Knights Cross of the Iron Cross from Hitler.

He returned to Spain, where Franco gave him government jobs.

One of which was diplomat to the United Nations in New York in the 1950s.

So he went.

And when he went to dinner parties in America, he wore all his decorations.

ALL of them.

That is the very definition of sang froid. And now I must know more about this evil gentleman!

[Spore]

On the contrary I say it is quite DIFFICULT to write a rude villain that has the same impact as a polite and respectful person that you STILL WANT TO GOUGE THE EYES OUT OF!

My personal favorite is Inglorious Basterd's Hans Landa. But that is because the actor knows when to switch from correct etiquette to becoming a monster that is only faintly hidden by social standards.

[Marlowe]

My personal favorite is Inglorious Basterd's Hans Landa. But that is because the actor knows when to switch from correct etiquette to becoming a monster that is only faintly hidden by social standards.

I liked that they even put him in the same movie as Dieter Helstrom, who can be summed up as "tries to be the same thing, but kind of sucks at it."

On an unrelated note; I'm amused that people like to use the name "Helstrom" for German villains because it sounds sinister in English but it really just means "Clearstream". Meanwhile German has surnames like "Mannteuffel" which literally mean "Devilman".

[Bohandas]

Goldfinger (James Bond)
Richelieu (The Three Musketeers)
Tarquin (The Order of the Stick)
Belloq (Raiders of the Lost Arc)
Marquis de la Tour d'Azyr (Scaramouche - the book)
Marquis de Mainz (Scaramouche - the Stewart Granger movie)
Morden (Babylon 5)
Long John Silver (Treasure Island)
Khan Noonien Singh (Star Trek - the original series)
Don Vito Corleone (The Godfather)
Dolores Umbridge (Harry Potter)
Hannibal Lecter (The Silence of the Lambs)
Ozymandias (Watchmen)
George Wickham (Pride and Prejudice)
Tywin Lannister (Game of Thrones)

Yes.
And a lot of others that aren;t as obvious.

Like The Joker.

"Hi. I don't want there to be any hard feelings between us, Harvey. When you and Rachael were being abducted I was sitting in Gordon's cage. I didn't set those charges...."

[Bohandas]

Right now, on TCM, there's a movie called The 7th Victim on. I haven;y seen the beginning, I just tuned in, but in the current scene a cult or secret society are holding a woman captive and very affably trying to convince her to kill herself.

[Spore]

I liked that they even put him in the same movie as Dieter Helstrom, who can be summed up as "tries to be the same thing, but kind of sucks at it."

On an unrelated note; I'm amused that people like to use the name "Helstrom" for German villains because it sounds sinister in English but it really just means "Clearstream". Meanwhile German has surnames like "Mannteuffel" which literally mean "Devilman".

Teufel would be a much more common - and usual - German surname. Mannteuffel just sounds made up, or worse, Dutch :P But imho that is a bit too much on the nose here. I like stuff like "Herr Adler" or "Feldwebel Klink" much better. Even though the latter is just Major Door Knob. :P

[Florian]

I know that most evil characters are jerks but what if there's an evil character who have good manners. (How to act properly at dinner or any other setting where they use manners.) I know it very rare to have a character like that but it is possible? :confused:

Going by your recent posts and questions, I´d suggest that you should actually sit down and tackle the whole topic of "alignments" from start to finish. Alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive, if you understand the difference between those two.

It´s like saying: You're an U.S. American, therefore you are such and such and behave in such and such way vs. U.S. Americans have a tendency to be such and behave in this way, if you understand my meaning. See: Lawful alignments and flirting, your endless questions beginnen with "I play an X (alignment) Y (race) Z (class), how do I...."


Teufel would be a much more common - and usual - German surname. Mannteuffel just sounds made up, or worse, Dutch :P But imho that is a bit too much on the nose here. I like stuff like "Herr Adler" or "Feldwebel Klink" much better. Even though the latter is just Major Door Knob. :P

Ok, gotta burst that bubble: "Germany" as a whole is a relatively new thing (globally speaking) and maybe only half of the surnames around are in what could be considered as the german language.
Of those surnames that can be considered to be traditional, most hail back to the time when they were based on job description, so we have a lot of Schmi(t/d)t (Smith), B(e/ä)cker (Baker), Müller (Miller), along with a lot of surnames with a latin origin, like Palatinus (literally, someone from the region of Palatium, now the Pfalz), the other half following either the nordic tradition (Peterson = Son of Peter, Hein Peterson = Hein, son of Peter) or the slavic tradition (with a lot of names that use bastardized Cyrillic - like Malinowski).

And no, "Feldwebel Klink" doesn't make sense, like, at all. It´s either "Klinke" (which means door handle) or "Klinker" (which is using a second layer of red bricks as a isolating elements for houses)

[Bohandas]

Anyone remember the Simpsons episode where Homer gets hired by a really friendly supervillain?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Only_Move_Twice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QEsjd1WZuY

EDIT


Singing: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QEsjd1WZuY)

Scorpio!
He'll sting you with his dreams of power and wealth.

Beware of Scorpio!
His twisted twin obsessions are his plot to rule the world and his employees' health.

He'll welcome you into his lair
Like the nobleman welcomes his guest
With free dental care and a stock plan that helps you invest!

But beware of his generous pensions
Plus three weeks paid vacation each year
And on Fridays, the lunchroom serves hot dogs and burgers and beer!
He loves German beer!

[Spore]

And no, "Feldwebel Klink" doesn't make sense, like, at all. It´s either "Klinke" (which means door handle) or "Klinker" (which is using a second layer of red bricks as a isolating elements for houses)

Geez, way to overanalyze a harmless German wordplay. I know of German's Latin and Germanic roots, in fact I live here and speak the language.

Es ist eine Sache, ein Wortspiel zu machen, aber eine ganz andere, eine Ethymologie zu einem Wort aufzustellen.

[Personification]

"Do you expect me to talk?"

"No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to stir-fry!"

Well, you can't talk the talk if you don't walk the wok.

[weckar]

Going by your recent posts and questions, I´d suggest that you should actually sit down and tackle the whole topic of "alignments" from start to finish. Alignments are descriptive, not prescriptive, if you understand the difference between those two. It has nothing to do with their recent threads. But, then, they are always a hoot.