Versatile Weapons and Finesse

[BigRedJedi]

What would happen if, whether by feat or fiat, all weapons that are Versatile would gain both increased damage, when wielded with two hands, and the ability to use either Strength or Dexterity as your attack stat. I do not want to make Versatile grant the Finesse property, at the very minimum to avoid the Sneak Attack combo, but what do my fellow Playgrounders think of this tweak to Versatile?

This opens the door for the samurai with katana (reflavored longsword), the Strider-type ranger, the GoT Viper-type spear fighter (I also very much enjoy the polearms from Dauntless, which are wielded in a highly dexterous manner), a Darth Maul-type fighter, etc.

I do not, currently, see too many areas where this might step on class proficiencies or provide excessive synergies, but I admit I have only just started to consider this option.

What potential problems/synergy am I missing, if I allow my players this option?

Does this make some kind of sense mechanically or thematically?

If I chose to implement this via Feat, would a half-feat (either a +1 stat or +1 AC) make sense?

Is it something that you would use in your games?

I look forward to feedback, and thank you, in advance, for constructive criticism.

[Man_Over_Game]

This is not a terrible idea. There is one major concern that needs to be addressed, though. Dexterity characters already have a ton of options. As a rogue, I could go melee or ranged or both and it wouldn't even matter how I built it. As a Ranger, this is still true, and I could probably take a shield too and get the Defensive fighting style and now my AC is all jacked up as a Dexterity character.

But as a Strength character, what are my options? Go sword and shield, or Greatsword. Go naked (as Barbarian) or save up all of my money for the most expensive armors in the game to keep up with Dex characters.

After crunching through some numbers, your homebrew doesn't look like a bad idea at all, but Versatile is a thing for Strength based characters, and I think that's intentional by design. If Dexterity characters could do just as much damage with the same weapons as a Strength character, then nobody would be a Strength-based Fighter.

[stoutstien]

its overshadow str even more. top of head it would allow pam to be used with dex.

[Man_Over_Game]

I would allow this if there was a counter-offer to make Strength-based builds straight up better in most non-versatile circumstances.

I mean versatile in the English terms of being able to change your playstyle vs Versatile the weapon trait.

Strength-Based Builds have no choice but to be melee characters that either wear heavy armor or be barbarian. In every circumstance, these are characters that are not versatile in this, and their lack of adaptability is made up for in raw damage and AC (in most circumstances).

On the other hand, Dexterity is the stat for the malleable, the versatile. It allows characters multiple skills, multiple builds, it improves defense AND offense. It allows you to adjust what range you're fighting with. You have options.

If you're going to make Dexterity as good in melee as Strength, then there should be something on the flipside that makes Strength the better choice in virtually every melee combat scenario. Because as of right now, without any homebrew, Strength and Dexterity are...roughly the same in terms of power, but more people are picking Dexterity because it's a lot more fluid and easier to use. This change will move Dexterity builds to be the dominant, and there won't be any value in picking a Strength build, unless a player is picking it to gimp themselves.

There are exceptions to what I'm saying, like Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master, but I think those are exceptions as overpowered individual circumstances rather than Strength builds as a whole.

[BigRedJedi]

its overshadow str even more. top of head it would allow pam to be used with dex.

Yeah, that silly quarterstaff/PAM combo, I thought of that after the initial post.

STR fighters still get to use the traditional, heavy, 2H weapons for dealing damage vs. the versatile ones, I think that the Playground has pretty firmly established that Dex tends to be more valuable stat in a broader array of cases anyways, even in the absence of this tweak, with my group it has not prevented several players from still deciding to roll Str based characters, but I see where it does further increase the gap.

Keep 'em coming, and thanks!

[Tiadoppler]

What would happen if, whether by feat or fiat, all weapons that are Versatile would gain both increased damage, when wielded with two hands, and the ability to use either Strength or Dexterity as your attack stat. I do not want to make Versatile grant the Finesse property, at the very minimum to avoid the Sneak Attack combo, but what do my fellow Playgrounders think of this tweak to Versatile?

This opens the door for the samurai with katana (reflavored longsword), the Strider-type ranger, the GoT Viper-type spear fighter (I also very much enjoy the polearms from Dauntless, which are wielded in a highly dexterous manner), a Darth Maul-type fighter, etc.

I do not, currently, see too many areas where this might step on class proficiencies or provide excessive synergies, but I admit I have only just started to consider this option.

What potential problems/synergy am I missing, if I allow my players this option?

Does this make some kind of sense mechanically or thematically?

If I chose to implement this via Feat, would a half-feat (either a +1 stat or +1 AC) make sense?

Is it something that you would use in your games?

I look forward to feedback, and thank you, in advance, for constructive criticism.


I would not allow this in my game, and I would not recommend it to others for the following reasons:

Game Balance:
Dexterity is already the best stat. Big heavy two-handed and versatile weapons is one of the few perks of Strength. If you make Dexterity even better, Strength becomes even less valuable.

Realism:
Strength is very important for effective weapon use. Swinging heavy swords and long polearms is simply not a "Dexterity Only" activity, especially if you want to do it for more than a few minutes a day. (Edit: Frankly, if I were making realism tweaks, I'd make bow usage require Strength. Perhaps all weapon attack rolls should be Dexterity, and all damage rolls should be Strength and some weapons should have a minimum Strength requirement)

Character choice:
Samurai are already represented just fine as either fighters or kensei monks with longswords. Why can't a ranger have some Strength and some Dexterity? Pretty good at everything with no major dump stat. I could see Dexterity based short spears or something, a reflavored Rapier for example. What's wrong with Darth Maul having decent Strength?


Overall:
This idea comes up every few months, and your idea is better than most (you're trying not to grant sneak attacks with mauls, and you want it to cost the player a feat). A light, one-handed, dexterity-based spear is a good idea, but two-handed fighting should stay as a Strength perk.

I think one reason this is so popular is that people see (and stereotypically play) Strength fighters as "slow, lumbering heavy-armor users whacking each other with dull metal clubs" and Dexterity fighters as "quick, clever ninjas jumping around wearing nice leather jackets and fighting with great skill", or perhaps DEX users are David, and STR users are Goliath.

[NaughtyTiger]

This is for your own table. You don't need options for STR unless you players are worried about it. As long as no player feels slighted, go to town.

[BigRedJedi]

There are exceptions to what I'm saying, like Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master, but I think those are exceptions as overpowered individual circumstances rather than Strength builds as a whole.

I think that absent PAM or GWM, STR is almost always inferior to DEX, because as you mention, DEX simply affects a far broader range of things that a character actually will do or face, and other than heavy 2H weapons, the damage difference between a STR or DEX fighter is negligible, at best (again, absent PAM or GWM).

If including PAM or GWM, however, aside from the silliness of the PAMStick of Nonsense, I don't see where the damage differential comes into play between STR and DEX with this tweak, it simply gives more options to the already option-superior stat (which doesn't seem all that impactful, if one option can already do/choose more things, it little affects the weaker choice to add more choices to the stronger one. A player that wants to play STR-based faces the same shortcomings either way).

Thanks for the feedback, this is why I love the Playground.

[GlenSmash!]

Bumping the damage die is an option I like. Adding Finesse isn't one I like.

Kensei's and PAM/Quaterstaff aside, the current niche for versatile weapons is the Grappler. You wield it in one hand when you want to grab something, in two hands when you don't.

I think any proposed change or enhancement to Versatile weapons should improve this niche.

[stoutstien]

i counted up the number of str vs dex check in published materials. i miss places it -_-, but even excluding stealth, dex is called for way more often than str. i've toyed with making str the only way to break grapples.

[GlenSmash!]

i counted up the number of str vs dex check in published materials. i miss places it -_-, but even excluding stealth, dex is called for way more often than str. i've toyed with making str the only way to break grapples.

That's an interesting idea.

I would like it if you could still use Acrobatics to escape a grapple attempt, but once it's locked in an Athletics check to break free makes sense.

[stoutstien]

That's an interesting idea.

I would like it if you could still use Acrobatics to escape a grapple attempt, but once it's locked in an Athletics check to break free makes sense.

that is exactly what i did. minus monks who get a ribbon skill at lv 3 that allows acrobatics to break it.

[GlenSmash!]

that is exactly what i did. minus monks who get a ribbon skill at lv 3 that allows acrobatics to break it.

Smart. I like it too.

[BigRedJedi]

Realism:
Strength is very important for effective weapon use. Swinging heavy swords and long polearms is simply not a "Dexterity Only" activity, especially if you want to do it for more than a few minutes a day. (Edit: Frankly, if I were making realism tweaks, I'd make bow usage require Strength. Perhaps all weapon attack rolls should be Dexterity, and all damage rolls should be Strength and some weapons should have a minimum Strength requirement)

…

I think one reason this is so popular is that people see (and stereotypically play) Strength fighters as "slow, lumbering heavy-armor users whacking each other with dull metal clubs" and Dexterity fighters as "quick, clever ninjas jumping around wearing nice leather jackets and fighting with great skill", or perhaps DEX users are David, and STR users are Goliath.

I certainly think you capture the realism objection to the idea, but I would say that D&D on the whole, and particularly the current ruleset, embrace the idea of cinematic combat rather than realistic combat, which is why STR lends itself to the large, slow, lumbering, but powerful strikes, and DEX lends itself to the nimble, rapid, acrobatic type of striking. From an under the hood perspective, cinematic combat represents damage dealt from big, heavy weapons as the same as from light, nimble ones, flavored to taste at each DMs table. The aforementioned Viper from GoT, in his fight against the Mountain, illustrates a pretty exemplary example of a cinematic combat between a DEX user (with a 2H spear, no less) and a STR user, while in a real fight, both fighters would need strong arms and great stamina for that type of fight, the cinematic approach emphasizes the visual appeal and underlying heroic nature of the combatants.


I certainly agree that STR builds lag behind DEX, not so much as to make them unplayable, simply more limited. From a min-max perspective, DEX is going to be objectively more useful in many more situations, but that does not mean that building STR is hurting a party. The real reason for considering this tweak to Versatile is to open up more of these cinematic flavors, even if it is a case of the rich getting richer.

[Angelalex242]

I certainly think you capture the realism objection to the idea, but I would say that D&D on the whole, and particularly the current ruleset, embrace the idea of cinematic combat rather than realistic combat, which is why STR lends itself to the large, slow, lumbering, but powerful strikes, and DEX lends itself to the nimble, rapid, acrobatic type of striking. From an under the hood perspective, cinematic combat represents damage dealt from big, heavy weapons as the same as from light, nimble ones, flavored to taste at each DMs table. The aforementioned Viper from GoT, in his fight against the Mountain, illustrates a pretty exemplary example of a cinematic combat between a DEX user (with a 2H spear, no less) and a STR user, while in a real fight, both fighters would need strong arms and great stamina for that type of fight, the cinematic approach emphasizes the visual appeal and underlying heroic nature of the combatants.


I certainly agree that STR builds lag behind DEX, not so much as to make them unplayable, simply more limited. From a min-max perspective, DEX is going to be objectively more useful in many more situations, but that does not mean that building STR is hurting a party. The real reason for considering this tweak to Versatile is to open up more of these cinematic flavors, even if it is a case of the rich getting richer.

If you're gonna do this, add something like 'Str characters get to add double their str mod to damage in melee.'

And now that Fighter with a Greatsword is whacking people for 2d6+10 before magic...

[BigRedJedi]

If you're gonna do this, add something like 'Str characters get to add double their str mod to damage in melee.'

And now that Fighter with a Greatsword is whacking people for 2d6+10 before magic...

Isn't that what GWM is doing (essentially, though on an even bigger scale)? Versatile weapons don't qualify for GWM.

[langal]

Too many "melee" builds with 8 strength already. Maybe add a rule where negative strength modifiers apply to melee no matter what. It would at least make everyone try to have average strength for melee.

[DeadMech]

I was briefly annoyed that when I went to buy a sword for my elven wizard I couldn't add dex to damage. Not that a sword on a wizard was about anything other than having something on hand to cut ropes and the like. Maybe hide the fact that I'm a squishy caster from enemies for a round or two. Cultural inertia aside elves really should change their racial weapon proficiency to rapier.

But no, It seems all good points all around. There really isn't a terrible need to make dex better.

[BigRedJedi]

This is not a terrible idea. There is one major concern that needs to be addressed, though. Dexterity characters already have a ton of options. As a rogue, I could go melee or ranged or both and it wouldn't even matter how I built it. As a Ranger, this is still true, and I could probably take a shield too and get the Defensive fighting style and now my AC is all jacked up as a Dexterity character.

But as a Strength character, what are my options? Go sword and shield, or Greatsword. Go naked (as Barbarian) or save up all of my money for the most expensive armors in the game to keep up with Dex characters.

After crunching through some numbers, your homebrew doesn't look like a bad idea at all, but Versatile is a thing for Strength based characters, and I think that's intentional by design. If Dexterity characters could do just as much damage with the same weapons as a Strength character, then nobody would be a Strength-based Fighter.

Looking back through the thread, I feel like this is mutually an argument for or against letting Versatile use either stat, as you point out, for STR-based characters, the options are 1H and shield or Greatsword, to be "optimal" for a particular build/role, with maybe the occasional niche build like TWF (LOL?) filling in the STR-based outliers (we need a "beefy" thrown weapon subclass already, though, I suppose some weird version of a rogue, bugbear type might pull it off? :-P ). What STR-based characters are currently using Versatile weapons? I cannot think of too many, as it's all 1H and Board, Greatsword, or the one we forgot, PAM... I would wager that the most common usage of a versatile weapon is by a Monk, whether the traditional quarterstaff or a Kensei using their special weapons, off the top of my head, I cannot think of too many other builds that regularly use a Versatile weapon with both hands (maybe there's something obvious I'm forgetting, it wouldn't be the first time). There is little, if any, reason for a STR-based character to employ a Versatile weapon, even if it is argued that it is geared towards them as wielders.

On the flip side, without GWM, DEX-based characters and their typical weapons of choice are already mechanically superior for the majority of builds, STR already lags behind. Being able to use a Versatile weapon with 2H and forgo some of the other benefits (whether TWF or a shield, in various cases) isn't going to push the DEX-based character's damage any higher than a STR-based character, and the Versatile weapons can never use the most powerful bonus that THF normally allows, namely, GWM. Does allowing Versatile to use either DEX or STR add even more variety to the options that are available to DEX-based characters? Sure. Does it further weaken the comparison of STR-based vs. DEX-based characters? Iffy, but probably not, as it isn't opening the door (okay, PAMstick of Nonsense, will have to address that one, but that's true, regardless) to more powerful options for the DEX-based characters, it's just opening the door to more variety.


As it is, DEX-based characters can already do the same damage as STR-based characters in nearly every case, by using a Finesse weapon, only lagging behind the STR-based character when the move to 2H weapons is made; though, even then, because of Sharpshooter, the DEX-character with a ranged weapon can keep pace with the 2H STR-based character, lagging perhaps 2 points of average damage behind the STR-based character, while doing it away from the enemy, able to take advantage of cover or stealth far more easily, etc., etc. The only weapons that I can think of, off the top of my head, that would now be open to the DEX-based character to do equal effective damage to the STR-based character that is taking advantage of Versatile are the spear/trident and the longsword. The spear/trident would still require STR to throw, and its damage is matched by the finesse rapier or overall usefulness exceeded while dealing equal damage by the light crossbow, while the longsword is equaled in damage, but beaten by the advantages of the longbow or heavy crossbow. A 16 STR fighter and a 16 DEX fighter would have the same accuracy and same damage with a longsword if Versatile allowed either stat while using with 2H; but the STR user wouldn't be using a longsword with 2H, they would be using the Greatsword to do more damage. Alternately, the STR fighter would use the Longsword and a shield to have better defense, while a DEX fighter could do slightly more damage while 2H the Longsword, or could match the STR fighter's damage with a rapier and shield; and the reality, is that the more optimal approach for this specific scenario (a DEX fighter with 2H vs STR fighter with sword and board) would be for the DEX fighter to use a pair of Shortswords, to equal the Greatsword's potential damage output, for the same reason that the STR fighter would use a Greatsword instead of a Versatile Longsword.


I think the general underlying complaint is that DEX is already superior to STR, with which I agree; but this doesn't widen the gap between what being STR-based and what being DEX-based means for the character as a whole, it simply adds a broader range of aesthetic approaches for what is already the superior stat, which might fall under the rule of cool, as long as it isn't stepping on the underlying mechanics (e.g. breaking the bounded accuracy wall, etc.)

[GreyBlack]

What would happen if, whether by feat or fiat, all weapons that are Versatile would gain both increased damage, when wielded with two hands, and the ability to use either Strength or Dexterity as your attack stat. I do not want to make Versatile grant the Finesse property, at the very minimum to avoid the Sneak Attack combo, but what do my fellow Playgrounders think of this tweak to Versatile?

This opens the door for the samurai with katana (reflavored longsword), the Strider-type ranger, the GoT Viper-type spear fighter (I also very much enjoy the polearms from Dauntless, which are wielded in a highly dexterous manner), a Darth Maul-type fighter, etc.

I do not, currently, see too many areas where this might step on class proficiencies or provide excessive synergies, but I admit I have only just started to consider this option.

What potential problems/synergy am I missing, if I allow my players this option?

Does this make some kind of sense mechanically or thematically?

If I chose to implement this via Feat, would a half-feat (either a +1 stat or +1 AC) make sense?

Is it something that you would use in your games?

I look forward to feedback, and thank you, in advance, for constructive criticism.

If you do this, then you make strength more irrelevant than it already is.

So let's look at what secondary statistics (i.e. game data values that are not the Prime 6):

Initiative
Armor Class
Attack Bonus (conditional)
Damage (conditional)
Multiple common skills

This is in addition to Dexterity being a common save, which increases the relative value. By comparison, what does strength govern?

Attack bonus
Damage
One uncommon skill

And strength is an uncommon save.

If you allow, in one way or another, versatile weapons to key off dexterity, then you just decrease the relative value of strength while increasing the relative value of dexterity.

[Unoriginal]

Can anyone explain to me why a door would need to be opened for "samurai with a longsword"?


Samurai are just fine with their longswords already.


Also, just to say, but Strength checks, with Athletics proficiency or not, shouldn't be uncommon in a typical dungeon. I think way too often people allows to use Dex (Acrobatics) for things that squarely fall into Str.

[Morty]

There's absolutely no realistic or thematic concerns here. Swords and other weapons weren't heavy and using only dexterity isn't less realistic than using only strength. Realistically speaking, hand to hand combat requires upper body strength, manual dexterity, hand coordination, awareness and many others. But D&D is built around using only one attribute for hitting and doing damage. Boiling it down to dexterity makes no less sense than strength.

Game balance is an actual concern, but I see that opinions are split on whether it actually unbalances anything.

[BigRedJedi]

If you do this, then you make strength more irrelevant than it already is.

So let's look at what secondary statistics (i.e. game data values that are not the Prime 6):

Initiative
Armor Class
Attack Bonus (conditional)
Damage (conditional)
Multiple common skills

This is in addition to Dexterity being a common save, which increases the relative value. By comparison, what does strength govern?

Attack bonus
Damage
One uncommon skill

And strength is an uncommon save.

If you allow, in one way or another, versatile weapons to key off dexterity, then you just decrease the relative value of strength while increasing the relative value of dexterity.

Again, I am fully in the camp of STR is objectively the weaker choice of primary stats between it and DEX, but I ask again, what STR builds are currently using Versatile weapons that this change would de-value? Grappler was mentioned earlier, but how many people are playing Grapplers? I play or run between 4-6 games at a time, half of which are AL, and in a pool of over 100 players, I've never seen a single one. Where are all these Versatile-wielding STR builds that this change would so devalue?

Is there a particular weapon that is egregiously offensive to think of using with DEX? Spears? Rapier on a stick, doesn't qualify for PAM or GWM. Longsword? If open to DEX, would still be the inferior choice to staying at range and using the equal-damage longbow, but at least would be an option.

Yes, it's just one more thing that DEX could do, but is it unbalanced? Does it invalidate STR as a choice? No. People who want to wear the heaviest armor and use the biggest weapons are still going to take STR, despite it overall being behind DEX.

[stoutstien]

I'm in the camp strength based pc neex a bump prior to factoring in feats. Maybe add d4 to all weapon damage while using strength or grant gwm as a "bonus feat" just slightly reduced in power. Subtract Prof bonus to attack add 2x to weapon damage. Then add a +1 to str or Con to the feat

[GlenSmash!]

Again, I am fully in the camp of STR is objectively the weaker choice of primary stats between it and DEX, but I ask again, what STR builds are currently using Versatile weapons that this change would de-value? Grappler was mentioned earlier, but how many people are playing Grapplers? I play or run between 4-6 games at a time, half of which are AL, and in a pool of over 100 players, I've never seen a single one. Where are all these Versatile-wielding STR builds that this change would so devalue?

Is there a particular weapon that is egregiously offensive to think of using with DEX? Spears? Rapier on a stick, doesn't qualify for PAM or GWM. Longsword? If open to DEX, would still be the inferior choice to staying at range and using the equal-damage longbow, but at least would be an option.

Yes, it's just one more thing that DEX could do, but is it unbalanced? Does it invalidate STR as a choice? No. People who want to wear the heaviest armor and use the biggest weapons are still going to take STR, despite it overall being behind DEX.

Interesting.

I see all this as more reason to beef up the strength based versatile weapon.

[GreyBlack]

Again, I am fully in the camp of STR is objectively the weaker choice of primary stats between it and DEX, but I ask again, what STR builds are currently using Versatile weapons that this change would de-value? Grappler was mentioned earlier, but how many people are playing Grapplers? I play or run between 4-6 games at a time, half of which are AL, and in a pool of over 100 players, I've never seen a single one. Where are all these Versatile-wielding STR builds that this change would so devalue?

Is there a particular weapon that is egregiously offensive to think of using with DEX? Spears? Rapier on a stick, doesn't qualify for PAM or GWM. Longsword? If open to DEX, would still be the inferior choice to staying at range and using the equal-damage longbow, but at least would be an option.

Yes, it's just one more thing that DEX could do, but is it unbalanced? Does it invalidate STR as a choice? No. People who want to wear the heaviest armor and use the biggest weapons are still going to take STR, despite it overall being behind DEX.

Perhaps not overly imbalanced, no. However, what it does is take away one more option from a stat that really needs everything it can get. And that's where the imbalance comes in; it eliminates yet another reason to grab strength and go into dexterity. It's not anything inherently imbalancing, it's the effect on the overall system.

[bid]

I do not want to make Versatile grant the Finesse property, at the very minimum to avoid the Sneak Attack combo, but what do my fellow Playgrounders think of this tweak to Versatile?
That's more or less what the kensei martial arts does. It would make a fine fighting style.