Strength to HP

[Speely]

The thread about Versatile got me thinking about ways to make Str a bit more on par with Dex. I don't think the balance is too off as it is by any means, but throwing a little love Strength's way seems sensible to me.

So, Dex is offensive and defensive. It also modifies some REALLY useful skills and one of the Big Three saves. Strength modifies Athletics, which is admittedly a very useful skill, but it also only affects offense and a rarer save. Sure, there are some good feats that benefit from a Str build, but those are feats, and there is no guarantee of ever getting them.

What if we take some inspiration from Dex (+attack and +AC) and make Str +attack and +HP? Obviously, making it just stack with Con at 1:1 when leveling up would be a bit much, but I am thinking of houseruling adding your Str bonus to the HP you gain on every other level (i.e. even-numbered levels.) I feel like it reflects how being brawny helps you shrug off damage a bit and gives Str a passive defense benefit that is thematically consistent, though only half as effectively as Con (which also modifies a Big Save.) I plan to make encounters a bit more deadly to account for this, which (in my mind) might help high-Str PCs stand out a little more.

Thoughts? I feel like this must have been discussed before, and probably presented better, but I missed it if so. Feel free to Shove me if this topic/idea is old news.

[Rebonack]

Or kill a sacred cow and remove Constitution completely. There are no skills associated with it. And let's be honest here, how often is the super strong guy in fantasy not also uncannily resilient?

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think the biggest problem with it is that, since physical characters usually already pump two physical stats, bundling Strength and Constitution (or HP) just makes the choice between Strength and Dexterity irrelevant. Any Strength character who maxed Strength and Constitution now maxes Strength and Dexterity. Similarly, any Dexterity character who maxed Dexterity and Constitution now maxes... Strength and Dexterity. Everyone now has the same HP bonus, AC bonus, and Greatsword damage bonus (and also uses a Greatsword now, unless they’re Rogues). Oh—and since Wizards tend to pump Constituon and Dexterity, you will see an emergence of Muscle Wizards and -alikes.

Not like that is necessarily a bad thing, if that’s what you and your friends want to do. But it might not be an intended consequence for you.

[DeadMech]

I'd have to find a new dump stat for my wizards. Had to put that rolled 7 somewhere. And I'm a big fan of not falling over all the time. Charisma is an old standby but I also like not starting fights every time I interject my being right and knowing everything into conversations.

[MeeposFire]

I made a small change where I made a few ranged weapons that allow for the use of str rather than using dex for attack and damage. The sling and the longbow allow you to opt to use str in this case which allows str characters an option like the dex characters do in having weapons for both melee and range though in both cases they can only use a subset of weapons and not the full list.

I had not considered just dumping con and putting HP on str but that certainly would eliminate one problem but there are a few things that would need to be considered with that.

[ZenBear]

This is really just a short hop away from reducing stats from 6 to 3: Fortitude, Reflex and Will. I’m not opposed, I think the differences between the 6 stats are adequately expressed through skills, but it’s a pretty big change.

@Meeposfire: I granted that as well in my game; bows are finesse, as well as longswords and spears to grant STR builds a reliable ranged option and DEX builds two-handed weapons. Notably this doesn’t allow DEX builds to steal the unique STR feats of GWM or PAM since for some dumb reason spears don’t qualify.

[Foxhound438]

Or kill a sacred cow and remove Constitution completely. There are no skills associated with it. And let's be honest here, how often is the super strong guy in fantasy not also uncannily resilient?

I dunno about that... sure, there's often a pretty good connection between having high strength and having high resilience, but...

"okay, the dragon breathes toxic gas over everyone in attempt to kill you. Everyone make strength saves to try to flex hard enough to not die"

it just isn't the same. Granted, I wouldn't be suuuper opposed to con going away and just having hit dice be your HP stat, but none the less it's in the game and it's probably not worth the... inevitable issues it would create to remove it.

As to giving strength more stuff, I feel like having strength based armor is enough in terms of having a defensive buff... plate armor is better than anything a dex build can get on AC short of a few exceptions that usually come at some cost. You can argue that you can just wear plate and take the drop in movement, but I feel like a much more intuitive and agreeable houserule would be to just up the cost of wearing armor that has too high a strength requirement.

[Nifft]

Or kill a sacred cow and remove Constitution completely. There are no skills associated with it. And let's be honest here, how often is the super strong guy in fantasy not also uncannily resilient?

Not a bad idea, but you might want to re-name the merged Str+Con into something which reflects both, or you get people mocking how you flex to negate poison damage. Body or Brawn perhaps.

To keep stats balanced, do the same for mental stats -- fold Intelligence and Wisdom into Brains (or the like).

Brawn
Dexterity
Brains
Charisma

Shuffle around some proficiencies -- each class having two good saving throws might not be viable with only four save types -- and you're good to go.

[JellyPooga]

I dunno about that... sure, there's often a pretty good connection between having high strength and having high resilience, but...

"okay, the dragon breathes toxic gas over everyone in attempt to kill you. Everyone make strength saves to try to flex hard enough to not die"

As the ZenBear says, it's a short leap from 6 stats to 3 and instead of Strength and Con, you just have Fortitude or Physique or something; a single stat to represent not only your physical power, but resilience as well. Wis and Cha combine neatly into Willpower, easily enough, which leaves Int and Dex sort of awkwardly smooshing into Reflexes, or perhaps more intuitively...Initiative (not the combat thing). I actually really like the idea of a less granular Ability Score breakdown, which is diversified by Skills and proficiency. To break it down, I'd be happy to see something like the following;

Ability Scores:
- Physique: Governs HP, most to-hit and damage bonuses, most overtly physical Skills (running, jumping, climbing trees, etc.), encumbrance, resistance to any "tough it out" challenges (poison, shoves, etc.)
- Initiative: Governs the most Skills, including those involving both manual and mental dexterity, as well as lore. Determines who goes 1st in all encounters (not just combat!). Resistance to "quick" or "work it out" challenges (dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge, intuition, vs. illusion, puzzles, etc.)
- Willpower: Governs mental fortitude and social prowess; probably the "spellcaster stat" for pretty much all kinds of spellslinging (why not?). Social skills fall under this Ability Score as do resistance to mind-affecting magic or abilities.

[GreyBlack]

Yeah, this is why dexterity had never applied to damage before, 4e not withstanding. With dexterity applying to damage and attack rating at baseline, it becomes too powerful a stat because it governs so many secondary abilities. As such, I don't think that it's that strength needs to be buffed; rather, I think dexterity needs to be nerfed.

The SIMPLEST fix is to make dexterity no longer apply to damage, and make finesse weapons only key off dexterity for attack bonus and not damage, but that would probably make a lot of people angry.

Honestly? I don't think there is a way to fix this perceived problem in 5e; dex is the god stat and that's what we need to build around. Let's hope they fix this in 6e.

[Unoriginal]

Or one could accept that Strength is not inferior to Dexterity, since the minuscule advantage that Initiative provides isn't enough to offset the balance between STR builds and DEX builds.

[Trask]

Folding Constitution into Strength feels good to me as it is opposite to Dex which gives damage and defense. That would allow Str to give damage and defense as well. It feels elegant. However implementation would be a nightmare I fear. So many races to rework, you have an absolute GLUT of Strength saves, and rebuilding monsters would be a pain.

I think a good halfway would be to allow characters to add half their Strength mod to HP, or 2x Strength mod to total HP.

[GorogIrongut]

My fix is very simple. Constitution works as is. Dex works as is. Str works as is and gets an extra perk. +1 hp/level for every + modifier/2 but rounded up.

It's a small bonus to a player's overall hp without going overboard. Str 12-15 all get +1 hp. 16 to 19 get +2. 20 gets +3.
And it helps counterbalance how much ridiculously stronger dex is than str.

[Millstone85]

Three abilities, eh? I think mine would look like this:

Physique
* Acrobatics
* Athletics
* Endurance
> Hit Points

Nimbleness
* Perception
* Recall
* Stealth
> Armor Class

Sociability
* Composure
* Empathy
* Persuasion
> Initiative

[GreyBlack]

Or one could accept that Strength is not inferior to Dexterity, since the minuscule advantage that Initiative provides isn't enough to offset the balance between STR builds and DEX builds.

I would beg to differ; Dexterity confers a number of advantages over strength, including bonuses to skills, being a more common save, bonuses to armor class, better ranged weapons, and initiative bonuses. Yes, strength is better in overall DPR due to GWM and heavy weapons being locked to strength, but 1) I also hail from the school that says that DPR should not ever be the be-all-end-all for determining the importance of any one given item, and 2) Sharpshooter is a thing.

That said, I will agree that the Initiative advantage is minuscule; it's the compounding effects of all of the above that makes Dex the overall superior stat.

[Zanthy1]

Three abilities, eh? I think mine would look like this:

Physique
* Acrobatics
* Athletics
* Endurance
> Hit Points

Nimbleness
* Perception
* Recall
* Stealth
> Armor Class

Sociability
* Composure
* Empathy
* Persuasion
> Initiative

Spellcasting
*Arcana
*Religion
*Nature
>Spell DCs

I would add that fourth one, which would be the dump stat for each martial, but would be a fine addition. Additionally, I would add in game bonuses to each of these 4 stats when you reach a certain point with them.

A 14 in Spellcasting nets you a bonus cantrip. A 20 Grants a level 1 spell like, 3 times a day for example. This way you are still incentivized to up other stats.

[DanyBallon]

Unless you handwave it, one of the major argument about having a decent STR score is Encumbrance. While it's not as sexy as having a better AC, but it will allow your party to bring back a fair share of the latest dungeon run. Which after having fun together, is next in line on the D&D goals :smallwink:

[Grod_The_Giant]

This is really just a short hop away from reducing stats from 6 to 3: Fortitude, Reflex and Will. I’m not opposed, I think the differences between the 6 stats are adequately expressed through skills, but it’s a pretty big change.

@Meeposfire: I granted that as well in my game; bows are finesse, as well as longswords and spears to grant STR builds a reliable ranged option and DEX builds two-handed weapons. Notably this doesn’t allow DEX builds to steal the unique STR feats of GWM or PAM since for some dumb reason spears don’t qualify.
Or heck, go whole-hog and remove ability scores altogether (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?503455-5e-Without-Ability-Scores-skills-Skills-Skills).

If you're talking about cutting just Con, though (which is not at all a bad idea), I'd suggest folding Con checks into Str, but removing stat-to-HP altogether and just boosting level-based HP. If you want to be unusually hearty, that's what the Tough feat is for.

[Foxhound438]

Ability Scores:
- Physique: Governs HP, most to-hit and damage bonuses, most overtly physical Skills (running, jumping, climbing trees, etc.), encumbrance, resistance to any "tough it out" challenges (poison, shoves, etc.)
- Initiative: Governs the most Skills, including those involving both manual and mental dexterity, as well as lore. Determines who goes 1st in all encounters (not just combat!). Resistance to "quick" or "work it out" challenges (dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge, intuition, vs. illusion, puzzles, etc.)
- Willpower: Governs mental fortitude and social prowess; probably the "spellcaster stat" for pretty much all kinds of spellslinging (why not?). Social skills fall under this Ability Score as do resistance to mind-affecting magic or abilities.

That's probably an okay system overall, but I don't think it's right for D&D. A system that's similar thematically but cuts down on mechanics might want this kind of stat breakdown.

Personally, I prefer having more separate scores that you can adjust to make a character have more specific strengths. In the warhammer TTRPG, there's something like 10 different stats that I can't remember all of, and with all those different things you can really get a character with much more specific upsides. There's a stat that's just for using guns, iirc.

[Willie the Duck]

With dexterity applying to damage and attack rating at baseline, it becomes too powerful a stat because it governs so many secondary abilities.


Or one could accept that Strength is not inferior to Dexterity, since the minuscule advantage that Initiative provides isn't enough to offset the balance between STR builds and DEX builds.


I would beg to differ; Dexterity confers a number of advantages over strength, including bonuses to skills, being a more common save, bonuses to armor class, better ranged weapons, and initiative bonuses. Yes, strength is better in overall DPR due to GWM and heavy weapons being locked to strength, but 1) I also hail from the school that says that DPR should not ever be the be-all-end-all for determining the importance of any one given item, and 2) Sharpshooter is a thing.

That said, I will agree that the Initiative advantage is minuscule; it's the compounding effects of all of the above that makes Dex the overall superior stat.

I think you are both right, depending on playstyle. Strength is a great stat if 1) you actually care about encumbrance, 2) you include GWM, PAM, and other strength-benefitting builds in the calculation, 3) enemies take maximum advantage of wind wall spells, rushing past the front line to chew on archers, and the like, 4)magic items not morphing to match player builds, such that the one guy with a strength build gets all the longswords and greataxes, while everyone else is fighting over the one magic rapier and one magic longbow that have shown up, and 5) DMs ruling that you can't run around with near-infinite arrows. Given that no two people agree on how reasonable those things are, how strong Str is relative to Dex is a strongly game-dependent question.

[Teaguethebean]

All this three stat stuff makes me want to just make it world of darkness and go
Physical
-Strength
-Dexterity
-Stamina
Mental
-Intellect
-Wits
-Resolve
Social
-Pressense
-Manipulation
-Composure
Each stat is decided in points for each substat based on you choosing a primary secondary and treciary stat and then putting stats into the sub stats to build your character

[JNAProductions]

I did this already. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?531769-5-Stats-For-5E)

Edit: Woops! No, I meant getting rid of Con. Not Strength to HP. I made it Prof to HP.

[ciarannihill]

As the ZenBear says, it's a short leap from 6 stats to 3 and instead of Strength and Con, you just have Fortitude or Physique or something; a single stat to represent not only your physical power, but resilience as well. Wis and Cha combine neatly into Willpower, easily enough, which leaves Int and Dex sort of awkwardly smooshing into Reflexes, or perhaps more intuitively...Initiative (not the combat thing). I actually really like the idea of a less granular Ability Score breakdown, which is diversified by Skills and proficiency. To break it down, I'd be happy to see something like the following;

Ability Scores:
- Physique: Governs HP, most to-hit and damage bonuses, most overtly physical Skills (running, jumping, climbing trees, etc.), encumbrance, resistance to any "tough it out" challenges (poison, shoves, etc.)
- Initiative: Governs the most Skills, including those involving both manual and mental dexterity, as well as lore. Determines who goes 1st in all encounters (not just combat!). Resistance to "quick" or "work it out" challenges (dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge, intuition, vs. illusion, puzzles, etc.)
- Willpower: Governs mental fortitude and social prowess; probably the "spellcaster stat" for pretty much all kinds of spellslinging (why not?). Social skills fall under this Ability Score as do resistance to mind-affecting magic or abilities.

Wasn't this similar to what 4E did? It had Str/Con for Fortitude, Dex/Int for Reflex and Wis/Cha for Willpower. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but certainly it was somewhat contentious at the time for DnD to condense the 6 attributes in that way. And it wasn't across the board, it was mostly used for Saving throws iirc.

[Willie the Duck]

Wasn't this similar to what 4E did? It had Str/Con for Fortitude, Dex/Int for Reflex and Wis/Cha for Willpower. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but certainly it was somewhat contentious at the time for DnD to condense the 6 attributes in that way. And it wasn't across the board, it was mostly used for Saving throws iirc.

Well yes. Sacred cows and all that. OTOH, attributes in general are a sacred cow too. There's no reason that there needs to be a (important to the game) attributes system at all.

[MeeposFire]

Wasn't this similar to what 4E did? It had Str/Con for Fortitude, Dex/Int for Reflex and Wis/Cha for Willpower. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but certainly it was somewhat contentious at the time for DnD to condense the 6 attributes in that way. And it wasn't across the board, it was mostly used for Saving throws iirc.

Actually I do not recall that particular aspect as being contentious. In fact I recall it being fairly well liked since it made it easier to have more decent defenses rather than in 3e where you were likely to have only one. The only contentious parts of the change (and of the things that people liked to argue about for 4e this is not often one of the big ones) was that it made certain ability score combos less optimal (str/con characters or cha/wis would be weaker than say str/dex or wis/int for instance at least via defenses) and some people did not like static defense rather than rolled saving throws (though to be fair that was not a criticism I heard that often though some would call it a change for the sake of change).

The only thing it was for was defenses (by the by saving throws are a different mechanic in 4e where it was more like the death saving throw in 5e but was used to end various effects fort, reflex, and will were called defenses).