D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

[Requilac]

Welcome to the chat thread for the Base Class Competitions for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitor’s work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but it is preferred if you do so through that class’ specific thread (if applicable). I will also be holding discussions over what the next competition’s theme should be in here. Let us begin.

Submissions thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570496-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IV-Does-Not-Meet-Expectations
Voting thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?574666-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IV-Voting-Thread

Former Competitions
1st contest: Who Needs Swords or Sorcery? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556338-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-I-Who-needs-Swords-OR-Sorcerery), won by WarrentheHero with the Inventor

2nd contest: Expect a low Margin of Terror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560208-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-II-expect-a-low-Margin-of-Terror), Won by Mourne with the Sleepwalker

3rd Contest: The Elements, and not the Periodic Ones (Probably?) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565360-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-III-The-Elements-and-not-the-periodic-ones-(probably-)!), won By Pygmybatrider with The Shaman

[pygmybatrider]

Woohoo! Onwards and upwards to the next big thing.

I am admittedly not immediately struck by inspiration here - but there are the beginnings of a Wisdom or Intelligence-based melee class, probably with a tribal theme, that gets a lot of action economy out of reactions due to enhanced perception/reaction time.

Interested to see where others take this!

[Requilac]

Woohoo! Onwards and upwards to the next big thing.

I am admittedly not immediately struck by inspiration here - but there are the beginnings of a Wisdom or Intelligence-based melee class, probably with a tribal theme, that gets a lot of action economy out of reactions due to enhanced perception/reaction time.

Interested to see where others take this!

I was actually planning on making a Constitution based necromancer type caster based around the manipulation the life energies. This idea suddenly occurred to me when I started making my own campaign setting and I discovered that three of the four planes all had several classes based around them but the fourth one, The Lightless Vaults of Zihnn (A plane of existence directly based on Zin, a region of the Dreamlands described in Lovecraft's The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, think Underdark meets Shadowfell), didn't have any class associated with it. I suppose nercomancy wizards and undying warlocks could sort of work, but those aren't full classes. This "Deathwalker of Zihnn" would be a little more broad than simply reanimation of the dead and necromancy spells though, they would also have a focus on spreading disease and poison, fear based spells, animalistic savagery and even healing (hey, healing is still a way of manipulating life energies ain't it?). I promise I will explain more about that precise plane of existence in the description of the class.

My main concern is that it may not be sufficiently out of the ordinary to support the theme. The concept is hardly unusual, just the fact that it uses Constitution as a casting stat is slightly out of the ordinary. What do you all think about it?

[Paleomancer]

An interesting contest! Trying to brainstorm some ideas. I just wanted to clarify a few things:

You mention non-bipedal beasts as classes. Would these essentially be 5e equivalents to 3e monster classes? I brainstormed a goofy class that allows a person to become (or be a member of a species that is) a centaur-like thing, mixing their species with some animal (as a life path). Would that be sufficiently out of the ordinary? Or playing as evil unicorns (a blatant oxymoron, all unicorns are evil... especially when they're not).
As for nontypical classes, would a profession like Programmer, Attorney, or Tourist be sufficiently unusual? Not necessarily these, but the general idea.
I admit, I want to make an Intelligence-based class, but aside from the usual manipulate reality path, I'm at a loss. Maybe a charisma-class that uses sheer arrogance to resist reality? ...Paladins?



I was actually planning on making a Constitution based necromancer type caster based around the manipulation the life energies. This idea suddenly occurred to me when I started making my own campaign setting and I discovered that three of the four planes all had several classes based around them but the fourth one, The Lightless Vaults of Zihnn (A plane of existence directly based on Zin, a region of the Dreamlands described in Lovecraft's The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath, think Underdark meets Shadowfell), didn't have any class associated with it. I suppose nercomancy wizards and undying warlocks could sort of work, but those aren't full classes. This "Deathwalker of Zihnn" would be a little more broad than simply reanimation of the dead and necromancy spells though, they would also have a focus on spreading disease and poison, fear based spells, animalistic savagery and even healing (hey, healing is still a way of manipulating life energies ain't it?). I promise I will explain more about that precise plane of existence in the description of the class.

My main concern is that it may not be sufficiently out of the ordinary to support the theme. The concept is hardly unusual, just the fact that it uses Constitution as a casting stat is slightly out of the ordinary. What do you all think about it?

It's an interesting idea... I especially like returning magical healing to Necromancy where it belongs. You might be right about Constitution being only slightly significant, but maybe go into why you'd use it, since Constitution is normally not associated with the undead. Maybe play on high constitution as key to Fortitude, and have the character be a festering pit of disease, poison, random vermin, and undead souls? All of which fail to control you precisely because you have adamantine fortitude? I am (mostly) joking, but playing on someone whose body resists any attempt by a parasitic force, living or dead, to take control or exploit it, might be a way to go.

Thanks again! Looking forward to see what people come up with in the contest, even if I don't get mine done.

[Requilac]

An interesting contest! Trying to brainstorm some ideas. I just wanted to clarify a few things:

You mention non-bipedal beasts as classes. Would these essentially be 5e equivalents to 3e monster classes? I brainstormed a goofy class that allows a person to become (or be a member of a species that is) a centaur-like thing, mixing their species with some animal (as a life path). Would that be sufficiently out of the ordinary? Or playing as evil unicorns (a blatant oxymoron, all unicorns are evil... especially when they're not).
As for nontypical classes, would a profession like Programmer, Attorney, or Tourist be sufficiently unusual? Not necessarily these, but the general idea.
I admit, I want to make an Intelligence-based class, but aside from the usual manipulate reality path, I'm at a loss. Maybe a charisma-class that uses sheer arrogance to resist reality? ...Paladins?


1) I don't see anything wrong with something like 3.5e's monster classes. Evil unicorn seems like it could fit the theme quite well.
2) I would certainly say that a class which is simply a representation of a common contemporary career would fit the competition quite well.



It's an interesting idea... I especially like returning magical healing to Necromancy where it belongs. You might be right about Constitution being only slightly significant, but maybe go into why you'd use it, since Constitution is normally not associated with the undead. Maybe play on high constitution as key to Fortitude, and have the character be a festering pit of disease, poison, random vermin, and undead souls? All of which fail to control you precisely because you have adamantine fortitude? I am (mostly) joking, but playing on someone whose body resists any attempt by a parasitic force, living or dead, to take control or exploit it, might be a way to go.

Thanks again! Looking forward to see what people come up with in the contest, even if I don't get mine done.

I was thinking more along the lines of how Constitution is a measure of "the will to live", which suggests that there is some aspect of personality involved in it. To me, it seems interesting to think about a spellcaster who would be so exposed to necromantic magic that they could basically use their force of will and determination to actually cast their spells. Sort of similar to the sorcerer and paladin, but it would be much more about grimm resolution than actual force of personality. A caster who literally siphons power from the act of survival in desperation.

[Paleomancer]

I was thinking more along the lines of how Constitution is a measure of "the will to live", which suggests that there is some aspect of personality involved in it. To me, it seems interesting to think about a spellcaster who would be so exposed to necromantic magic that they could basically use their force of will and determination to actually cast their spells. Sort of similar to the sorcerer and paladin, but it would be much more about grimm resolution than actual force of personality. A caster who literally siphons power from the act of survival in desperation.

Hmm... to tie the class overview better with Constitution (versus the usual Wisdom/Charisma), would it be that either you have a profound connection to the wellspring of life itself, or that you are imbued with necrotic power and your very lifeforce is sufficient to contain it? Regardless, it's a cool concept. It would explain how a living creature could channel the might of necrotic energy itself, since death itself struggles to sap your inner flame of life. That might also explain how you can control undead, as you can feed them lifeforce from your own reserve and remain unharmed.

[BlueHairedKat]

Why do I get the feeling that this is going to get ridiculous?

Oh, right, the evil unicorns.

I have ideas for an intelligence-based fighter, a biotinker who augments their own body with mad science. It would do some unconventional mechanical things that would fit the theme, but 'mad scientist' is maybe a bit conventional. Or something vaguely superheroic; again mechanically unusual (but without the 'opposite stats' thing, don't know how much of an issue that is) and thematically unexpected. Fun things to build, and somewhat in-theme, but I wonder if they're in-theme enough...

[MoleMage]

Might make a fighting class with Charisma as their key stat based on the hero's journey and the monomyth (destined hero with no particular martial skill). Thoughts?

[pygmybatrider]

My first stab at an entry is up in the entry thread. It's all over the place at the moment, but all the features have names now, and there's enough there that I'm hoping it will come together by the end of the competition. I found this one a lot more difficult than the last - no direct inspiration for abilities, no clear picture in my head from the start, and having to find features for every single level as there is no spellcasting.


Might make a fighting class with Charisma as their key stat based on the hero's journey and the monomyth (destined hero with no particular martial skill). Thoughts?

I love this idea - I did a lot of work on the monomyth throughout my uni years. I read the entire Belgariad probably every other year, and Garion is probably exactly the sort of character that would fit a build like that.


Why do I get the feeling that this is going to get ridiculous?

Oh, right, the evil unicorns.

I have ideas for an intelligence-based fighter, a biotinker who augments their own body with mad science. It would do some unconventional mechanical things that would fit the theme, but 'mad scientist' is maybe a bit conventional. Or something vaguely superheroic; again mechanically unusual (but without the 'opposite stats' thing, don't know how much of an issue that is) and thematically unexpected. Fun things to build, and somewhat in-theme, but I wonder if they're in-theme enough...

Yeah, I've had a few headaches with the theme too. It's different, but is it different enough? For all the thought that goes into making something with the right amount of juxtaposition, you still need to build a class that works. I for one like the idea of a biotinker...somebody who could end up looking like Winter Soldier, a 40k haemonculus or Mega Man depending on where you take it. Plus more int-based classes is always good!

@Requilac - I have always loved the idea of casting from hitpoints, but have never seen it done well. I'd definitely be interested to see your take on it, and have no qualms about it fitting the theme! :)

Lots of good ideas floating around in this thread!

[MoleMage]

I love this idea - I did a lot of work on the monomyth throughout my uni years. I read the entire Belgariad probably every other year, and Garion is probably exactly the sort of character that would fit a build like that.


Well I can't say I did a lot of work on the monomyth. It came up in one class which is enough for me to remember that it exists. So don't get your hopes too high; I'm using the Wikipedia page to put together the class (and I'm not sure I'll have enough ideas to fill everything out yet).

I've put up the first few levels, and need to sort out the chassis. So far I've only touched on two of the stages of the hero's journey (Answering the Call at 2nd level, while Death and Resurrection aren't written but are named with Beyond the Pale and Returned Hero at level 11), but I'm not sure how much I can put into a class without limiting the class's ability to exist in an outside narrative.

[Morphic tide]

Let's see... Ideas conductive to screwing with expectations... Some synonym for "flanker" being used for a highly mobile two-handed character that leaps to enemies to land immensely stronger than normal blows comes to mind, possibly with a further layer of misdirection by having a parrying-focused subclass carry Strength to AC, as they do so by literally forcing blows aside instead of redirecting force. Another thought would be a class built on playing with pre-existing lore and mechanical outcomes instead of general expectations, essentially D&D community in-joke subversions, such as a Pouncer that's actually built on single fairly stationary strikes and rapid repositioning instead of charges.

[Vogie]

The conceit of the deadeye was an intelligence-based ranger- or fighter-esque marksman character who uses firearms. Unlike all other D&D ranged weapons, firearms only require the intelligence (and the appropriate appendages) to use - you don't have to be particularly strong or dexterous, but rather calculating and precise. And there were three subclasses that immediately jumped to mind:

The Calm & Collected Sniper
The Walking Armory
The emotionless Tetragrammaton Cleric, from the movie Equilibrium.


I sampled a bit from the MFOV's Firearms Redux rules, as well as looking at various artificer and gunslinger builds.

The Accuracy mechanic I thought up in THIS (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23407439&postcount=28)other thread about replacing the extra attack feature with a single large attack. I think it's a bit clunky, but the heart is there. Mechanically the same as "extra attacks" in a rolling-dice-sense but only a single bullet leaves the gun, and the "additional hits" are effectively refluffed as that bullet doing more damage.

I do need to add some more polish, and prices on ammunition-crafting. PEACH here if you have some ideas.

[Requilac]

Hmm... to tie the class overview better with Constitution (versus the usual Wisdom/Charisma), would it be that either you have a profound connection to the wellspring of life itself, or that you are imbued with necrotic power and your very lifeforce is sufficient to contain it? Regardless, it's a cool concept. It would explain how a living creature could channel the might of necrotic energy itself, since death itself struggles to sap your inner flame of life. That might also explain how you can control undead, as you can feed them lifeforce from your own reserve and remain unharmed.

That is definitely a very interesting idea. It's not quite what I was thinking, but there is definitely some process to it. It reminds me a lot of blood magic, which I was never very fond off, but I don't necessarily need to use those same mechanics. I have also toyed with the idea of the necromancer gaining a pool of hit points from hitting enemies with necrotic damage that can be used to heal the necromancer or its allies, which seems to be pretty related to this.




I have ideas for an intelligence-based fighter, a biotinker who augments their own body with mad science. It would do some unconventional mechanical things that would fit the theme, but 'mad scientist' is maybe a bit conventional. Or something vaguely superheroic; again mechanically unusual (but without the 'opposite stats' thing, don't know how much of an issue that is) and thematically unexpected. Fun things to build, and somewhat in-theme, but I wonder if they're in-theme enough...

I would say that all of these concepts sounds pretty well within the boundaries of the theme. If you can justify it, it is probably acceptable.





@Requilac - I have always loved the idea of casting from hitpoints, but have never seen it done well. I'd definitely be interested to see your take on it, and have no qualms about it fitting the theme! :)



I wasn't thinking so much as casting from hitpoints so much as casting using Constitution as the ability score. I was never fond off the concept of draining hit points to empower spells/features, but I may add it in as it is thematically appropriate for this class. Don't keep your hopes up too high on that though.

[pygmybatrider]

Just had a quick read through of your Hero class, MoleMage!

I am already in love with it. I love the Warlocky patron/pact split at 1st and 3rd levels - I am hoping that later features buff these relics up as you level. Love the heroics dice.

Mighty and Cunning Hero are currently switched for their features. Heroic Strike - Cha to damage dice at level 11 to keep pace with Improved Divine Smite and Fighter's 3rd attack?

Backup Plan and Mystic Attunement sound sweet and thematic.

I am excited to see where you take this!

I have reshuffled a few things with the mesmer, and am a bit happier overall with how the class feels and flows - I think I have spent a bit of time wrapping my head around what they are thematically and what they should be able to do. Making Psych Out a mini-rage I think worked wonders for that. I might have to take Extra Attack off the Harlequin now though.

I am taking a look at the Deadeye now... :)


Base features all seem okay to me - firearms!

This One is Mine: love the Full Metal Jacket reference. Am I right in thinking that to hit you are only rolling d20 + prof, and then damage is 1d10 + int? I don't think you need the part in here about the Silencer reducing the boom as that is spelled out later on.

Called Shots: maneuvers are a big deal for battlemasters, and the defining feature of their subclass - your Deadeye gets this as a base feature. Could be fine or over the top depending how strong the subclass features are. There's also nothing in here about only being able to use these with firearms - is that intentional?

Fighting Style: accuracy 'or' attack rolls - is this intended to keep a longbow or crossbow using Deadeye viable? Depleted seems too finicky with resistances etc, I would keep it as a straight +2 damage, as opposed to Archery's +2 to hit. Impactful is fine and I like Penetrating (no pun intended) - you would feel like a boss when it came up, and it would add an interesting tactical element to battlefield positioning.

Marskman Styles: I'll come back to these at the end.

Increased Accuracy: interesting and thematic way to reflavour Extra Attack. Now it seems like you add your Int mod to hit - and I went back to check and it does seem that way. Maybe spell it out in the first feature for slow people like me - "when using your firearm you roll a ranged weapon attack, using your proficiency modifier + your Intelligence modifier."

Chain of Command: I like this feature. Good stuff. Could probably be reworded to something like "when you do not move on your turn, you can cast Command as bonus action (rather than a free one - does this class have lot of competing uses for bonus actions? doesn't seem so so far).

Ghillie Suit: I also like this feature. Double good stuff.

Silencer: Continuing the trend of cool features.

Steady Hands: the Ranger's capstone, at level 18, where it probably belonged in the first place.

Vorpal Headshot: Is this the level 20 feature? I assume so, but it doesn't say so in the description.

Elite Sniper: gains some of the sharpshooter benefits for free. I assume most Deadeyes would grab that feat at some point so it might be a bit redundant. Scaling halfish-sneak attack die - I am not sure you need this, given you also get scaling maneuvers. I haven't read those yet, so it might be fine.

Defensive Tactics: Smash Face is one of the coolest names for an ability I've ever seen and works fine. I would make the damage automatic and the save just for the disadvantage. I think Duck & Cover should probably be 'or' rather than 'and'. Steel Will is cool.

Scope: ridiculous range, living up to the name! I like that you can lay prone and snipe away, very thematic.

Glancing Shot: strong fluffy feature. I am a little nervous about power levels if those maneuvers are even halfway decent as an Elite Sniper Deadeye already has quite a lot going for it.

Walking Arsenal: feels like the 'champion' of the Deadeye. Features seem fine to me.

Unusual Arsenal: Dragonfire Round is a fire-type Lightning Bolt. Is there a level restriction or amount per rest limit on this? I don't have the Arcane Archer shots on me to compare, but overall this subclass seems weaker than the Elite Sniper. I still haven't checked the maneuvers though - those increased die sizes might make a big difference.

Gun Kata: guns akimbo! Nice. Six shots each is probably going to be a whole combat until you get 3rd extra attack.

Quantity over Quality: I don't really understand the difference between this and Improved Accuracy. It's also odd to give this archetype an extra feature at level 5. Could you just give the class Extra Attack at 5 and simplify the accuracy mechanic, or make the level 5 feature give players the option of taking Extra Attack or Improved Accuracy?

Quick Hands: steals a lot from the Dual Wielder feat. This might be personal preference but I tend to like keeping feat abilities in feats.

Point Blank Shot: this is a cool feature, and fluffy, but again this can be achieved with Crossbow Expert. I'd probably give this feature to them at level 3 so that anyone wanting to follow this archetype doesn't blow the feat just to get from 1-7 using the benefit.

Death Blossom: very cool. Nice capstone feature for this archetype.

Called Shots: are mostly straight from BM and so pretty strong overall, and really I'm not sure the Deadeye needs them. If you gave them a different feature at 2, say a X-per-rest advantage, or use a contested Int check to gain advantage, I don't think either Sniper or Gun Kata would miss it. Obviously it screws with the Walking Arsenal, but I think more could be done there to turn it into a demolitions-type archetype.

Obviously these are just my thoughts on the fly, I haven't really had time to sit back and digest them, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. Good stuff overall, I like the idea, the thematics, and the clear distinction between subclasses, I am just worried that the base class takes the best parts of the best fighter archetype and then the subclasses whack on some great bonuses too.

[MoleMage]

Just had a quick read through of your Hero class, MoleMage!

I am already in love with it. I love the Warlocky patron/pact split at 1st and 3rd levels - I am hoping that later features buff these relics up as you level. Love the heroics dice.

Mighty and Cunning Hero are currently switched for their features. Heroic Strike - Cha to damage dice at level 11 to keep pace with Improved Divine Smite and Fighter's 3rd attack?

Backup Plan and Mystic Attunement sound sweet and thematic.

I am excited to see where you take this!


I built it on a strange mix of Bard, Warlock, and Cleric (Heroics is Channel Divinity mixed with Bardic Inspiration, and the chassis is Warlock-like minus spellcasting).

Relics do indeed improve later on! The 13th level feature is now written for Weapon, Garb, and Focus (trying to figure out what sort of upgrade to give to Trinket).

Fixed the Mighty and Cunning Hero title blocks (I was experimenting with gmbinder variables and got the order wrong). Did some changes to the layout on Mighty: it now gets Feats of Strength at level 1 (which improves at level 6 like the other 1st-level Heroics features), and Heroic Strike was moved to level 6 (where subclasses will get their combat upgrade). The adding Charisma was moved to level 14 (when subclass-granted Heroics options all improve), an additionally allows rerolling of 1s and 2s a la great weapon fighting style.

Little worried about Backup Plan being just better than Feats of Strength, but then Medium Armor + Shields is probably better than Thieves' Tools so I'm gonna leave it for now.

Glad you like the early draft, that bodes well for the class once I get some revisions in!

[Vogie]

Called Shots: maneuvers are a big deal for battlemasters, and the defining feature of their subclass - your Deadeye gets this as a base feature. Could be fine or over the top depending how strong the subclass features are. There's also nothing in here about only being able to use these with firearms - is that intentional?

The Subtype is a nod to the Spell-Less Ranger, which is just a ranger with the spellcasting replaced by the Battlemaster Maneuvers. The base Deadeye has a small amount of maneuvers and superiority die, while the Walking Arsenal has the scaling that you see as part of the battlemaster subclass. I forgot to differentiate that the superiority die are LongRest Refreshed on Base, but Short Rest Refreshed on the Walking Arsenal.

I do need to write them all out instead of referencing the corresponding one, because they'll interact with the value of the superiority die rolled.



Fighting Style: accuracy 'or' attack rolls - is this intended to keep a longbow or crossbow using Deadeye viable? Depleted seems too finicky with resistances etc, I would keep it as a straight +2 damage, as opposed to Archery's +2 to hit. Impactful is fine and I like Penetrating (no pun intended) - you would feel like a boss when it came up, and it would add an interesting tactical element to battlefield positioning.

Increased Accuracy: interesting and thematic way to reflavour Extra Attack. Now it seems like you add your Int mod to hit - and I went back to check and it does seem that way. Maybe spell it out in the first feature for slow people like me - "when using your firearm you roll a ranged weapon attack, using your proficiency modifier + your Intelligence modifier."

I'll update Depleted to make more sense.
I try to avoid the words "ranged weapon attack" as it is a game-defined term that uses Dexterity. You don't use Dexterity until 18.
I indicate "accuracy or attack rolls" in the base class because 2 of the archetypes use accuracy rolls, while Gun Kata uses attack rolls like a normal D&D.



Chain of Command: I like this feature. Good stuff. Could probably be reworded to something like "when you do not move on your turn, you can cast Command as bonus action (rather than a free one - does this class have lot of competing uses for bonus actions? doesn't seem so so far).."

That is supposed to be as an action. Whoops. Fixed. Also changed the name to increase piggybacking.



Vorpal Headshot: Is this the level 20 feature? I assume so, but it doesn't say so in the description.
Fixed



Elite Sniper: gains some of the sharpshooter benefits for free. I assume most Deadeyes would grab that feat at some point so it might be a bit redundant. Scaling halfish-sneak attack die - I am not sure you need this, given you also get scaling maneuvers. I haven't read those yet, so it might be fine.
You don't get many Superiority die in this archetype, and the die don't scale. Only Walking Arsenal has the scaling die.



Walking Arsenal: feels like the 'champion' of the Deadeye. Features seem fine to me.

Unusual Arsenal: Dragonfire Round is a fire-type Lightning Bolt. Is there a level restriction or amount per rest limit on this? I don't have the Arcane Archer shots on me to compare, but overall this subclass seems weaker than the Elite Sniper. I still haven't checked the maneuvers though - those increased die sizes might make a big difference.
It's more of the utility version, rather than giant damage numbers on a single target like Elite Sniper. I'll get the Called shots & Unusual Arsenal lists updated this weekend.



Quantity over Quality: I don't really understand the difference between this and Improved Accuracy. It's also odd to give this archetype an extra feature at level 5. Could you just give the class Extra Attack at 5 and simplify the accuracy mechanic, or make the level 5 feature give players the option of taking Extra Attack or Improved Accuracy?


The point of the class is the accuracy mechanic, which is all about one big shot. However, this subclass is all about Dual Wielding, summoning those cinematic handgun firefights, which means pulling that trigger a whole lot. It's also the class where one might have a sword, dagger, (or whatever) in one hand and a firearm in the other, which doesn't work with the accuracy mechanic. The idea was you'd still have the accuracy mechanic while wielding your rifle, so I reworded it.



Quick Hands: steals a lot from the Dual Wielder feat. This might be personal preference but I tend to like keeping feat abilities in feats.
This class is basically "If Sharpshooter was a base class". And the Dual Wielder feat is really weak.
I did change the middle ability to more interesting than +1 AC, and the feature has now been renamed "Sly Flourish", as a nod to 4e & the Drunks & Dragons podcast.



Point Blank Shot: this is a cool feature, and fluffy, but again this can be achieved with Crossbow Expert. I'd probably give this feature to them at level 3 so that anyone wanting to follow this archetype doesn't blow the feat just to get from 1-7 using the benefit.

You're right, I need more here. I'll add a "you can't have disadvantage" clause, and probably make a Matrix reference. Having "Shot" in the feature name is confusing with the called shots mechanic.


THANKS!

[Crim the Cold]

I hope I have the time to flesh this out and finish it. Last time I tried to participate I wound up getting a new job and my spare time dried up for a while. I had an idea that I have had noodling around in my head for a while now and I think it fits. Some of the abilities are borrowed from other fantasy works but good ideas deserve to be spread outside their origins. Here is the very rough draft. I would like to know if ya'll think it fits the theme and would be worth taking the time to finish.

Blade mage (name wip)
Strength based spellcasting
High Risk high reward high action economy
Specializes in using slashing weapons
Becomes slashing damage resistant and eventually inmune. Eventually becomes resistant to piercing damage.
Low hp d6 hit die
Abilities that act as spells and consume spell slots just like spells would.
Can store slashing weapons in an extra dimensional space after bonding with them (10 minute ritual) and dismiss or summon them to hand at will. Uses bonus action.
Can make temporary and permanent enchantments to weapons. Can eventually stack enchantments both temporary and permanent on a weapon. Temp enchantments can be set on anyone's weapon. Permanent enchantment only on bonded weapons. Can utilize blacksmithing proficiency along with magic to improve even rusty pr damaged weapons to masterwork quality. Eventually can permanently transmute material a weapon is made of to improve it as well.

Sub classes, swords, axes, polarms, armor.
Sword specializes in disrupting offense.
Axes specializes in disrupting defenses.
Polarms specializes in pure offense.
Armor specialized in defense.
Proficient in blacksmithing, arcana, athletics.

I'm thinking the capstone(equivalent to a 9th level spell) will be to summon your entire arsenal (limit 20 weapons per target) to attack every enemy in a large area.

Please let me know if ya'll think I've got the bones of a good class here and if you think it is thematically appropriate.

Edit: I will put the completed, detailed, and fleshed out class in the actual contest thread..

[MoleMage]

I just realized that I forgot to update the link to the new GMBinder version control when I made changes to the Hero last week. Last weeks changes and today's changes should have all pushed through at once now. The changelog in my post has a pretty good record of what I did. Just need to figure out the rest of Mystic Hero and write the fluff of the class!

[Vogie]

Checking out some of the other classes:

For the Hero:

Hero's Boon - I assume it available at level 5, but it doesn't say.
Divine Blessing is kinda broken. Just a flat ignorance of resistance & immunity on weapon attacks once you reach level 11?
An idea for the Cross the Threshold/Heroic Sacrifice/Returned Hero combo for the level 10 ability: How about keep Cross the Threshold, then have a different 10th level ability for each subclass, that is only unlocked once you pass on.


For the Mesmer:

Why is the Unarmored Defense feature named "Inner Fire"? There's nothing else fire-related in the class.
Lightning Reflexes seems odd that you're giving the player a bunch of reactions, but at no cost. They're still getting normal features, and also all these extra reactions, but only used in minute ways.
Harlequin seems really boilerplate... Possibly because so many of its features are eaten up by Extra attack & Evasion. Could one of those be added to the base class? Or possibly have them combined so you can get a more Harlequin-y feature in there before 17?



I do need to write them all out instead of referencing the corresponding one, because they'll interact with the value of the superiority die rolled.


This has been done!

[MoleMage]

Checking out some of the other classes:

For the Hero:

Hero's Boon - I assume it available at level 5, but it doesn't say.
Divine Blessing is kinda broken. Just a flat ignorance of resistance & immunity on weapon attacks once you reach level 11?
An idea for the Cross the Threshold/Heroic Sacrifice/Returned Hero combo for the level 10 ability: How about keep Cross the Threshold, then have a different 10th level ability for each subclass, that is only unlocked once you pass on.


Hero's Boon unlocks at 6th level (one level after Font of Inspiration yes, but Heroes have extra attack at 5th level already which was making it fairly weighty. This should be updated in the sheet now.

Divine Blessing was based on another mechanic I had a while back for Heroic damage which basically is treated as the best possible damage type for resistance and immunity. If I limited it to the active portion do you think it would be strong enough for a tier upgrade? What if instead of ignoring resistance and immunity it made any simple weapon or Relic Weapon a +1 weapon as its passive effect instead?

The idea for making Returned Hero/Sacrifice a subclass specific one is a good one. I'll see if I can move one of the subclass features around so I can put an extra one in at 10. I'll probably leave the free ressurections on the base class and give an additional bonus per subclass along with an option for Heroics.

Thanks for the feedback! I will return the favor sometime this week (hopefully tomorrow).

[Requilac]

Okay, I just started to get to work on the death walker/emissary of Zihnn (http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Sy6kgTSqX) class I was talking about. I have yet to make flavor descriptions, but I have already completed all the proficiencies, spell list and am working on the class features. It is a full casting class, so it will not have many ground breaking features, but I will try to make them as thematic as possible. If you would like to make any commentaries on the mechanics, please feel free to do so.

[Vogie]

Divine Blessing was based on another mechanic I had a while back for Heroic damage which basically is treated as the best possible damage type for resistance and immunity. If I limited it to the active portion do you think it would be strong enough for a tier upgrade? What if instead of ignoring resistance and immunity it made any simple weapon or Relic Weapon a +1 weapon as its passive effect instead?

I wouldn't want to nerf it that much. I could see a:

Once/rest feature that removes both for a small period of time
Multiple times/rest that removes resistance, and reduces immunity to resistance for a small period of time
Always-on feature that allows the player to change their damage to less-resisted types, such as radiant or force
Always-on feature that maximizes damage dealt to targets with resistance

[pygmybatrider]

Thanks for the feedback, Vogie!

Inner Fire was a placeholder name for an earlier mechanic that got dumped in favour of Unarmored Defense - that's been fixed up now. Harlequin has also been made more harlequin-y as that was a fair critique. No more Extra Attack for them either.

The extra reactions were part of the design process for the class. Thematically it made sense to me that an Intelligence based fighter is going to be working on mental acuity and reflex speed. Mechanically, I thought it (along with Psych Out) would give the class a clear 'feel' to help distinguish itself from the Rogue and Monk, and I tried to work the 'cost' into the base class by giving them no real features that improve damage - no GWM option, no Fighting Style, no Extra Attack. The Harlequin is frail defensively, and the Hypnotist trades offense for defense. Now, whether or not I succeeded at that goal is a different question! I have thought about only giving them simple weapons - leaving them with a d4 dagger for finesse options - or simple weapons and short swords. Do you think that would make it an easier pill to swallow?

Also after looking again at Hexblades, I am thinking I will drop the second use of Psych Out per rest in favour of something similar to their 14th level ability where they can use a bonus action to transfer their Hexblade's Curse onto a different target. As it stands, Psych Out is great for bosses, but a waste on anybody else. Currently, it progresses from 1 badass boss self-buff > 2 badass boss self-buffs. Following the Hexblade way it goes from one badass boss self-buff per rest > one badass combat self-buff per rest.

I'll have a read through the new/revised classes over the weekend and get back to you guys. :)

[MoleMage]

Mesmer Feedback:


I like the extra reactions as part of the core progression, but with the limitation of only using a particular reaction once per round I'd like to see the subclasses unlock their reaction abilities sooner.
Overall, this class is top-notch for defensive features, but they have no ability to do extra damage between level 1 and level 20 (other than ASIs) that doesn't require enemies to hit them. I would throw an ability near Countercut (plus or minus a level or two) that allows them to manipulate which ally an enemy targets, allowing the Mesmer to trigger Countercut at least somewhat reliably.
I would let Harlequin use vicious mockery in the standard fashion in addition to the bonus action version. It's not a very strong cantrip but it would fit the theme well.
Reactionary Charm is just better than Mocking Strike, as the stunned condition grants advantage on all attack rolls targeting a creature in addition to its obvious effects. The saving throw to avoid RC might pull it back into line, but it's still more attractive as a player (it's flashier and feels more impactful).



Deadeye Feedback


The first one is just a formatting thing; it would be nice to have a table for this class so we can visualize the progression.
I love that Intelligence is the modifier for gun shooting. You could probably remove the condition that negative Dexterity still penalizes your damage rolls; the language is not used anywhere else in 5e that I know of, plus Steady Hands already gives (admittedly very late game) incentive to prioritize Dex secondary or at least tertiary.
Stand Down feels odd in the core class (it could be a subclass feature for a commando or Walking Arsenal).
Elite Sniper's Smash Face doesn't specify how the saving throw DC is calculated. It seems like the intent is for it to be your Called Shot DC, so something like "against your Called Shot saving throw DC" would be sufficient.
Walking Arsenal's Improved Called Shots feels pretty small for a tier upgrade. I'd give them extra uses of Superiority die also.
Gun Kata doubles as the blade and gun swashbuckler, which is cool. As with the standard guns' Dexterity penalty note, you probably don't need to make the Intelligence penalty note here.
Gun Kata's Quantity over Quality doesn't fit standard subclass progression. I would fold it into Sly Flourish.
Dodge This seemed weak until I saw it also negated Dodge. Proceed.


EDIT: I found the language for applying an ability penalty but not an ability bonus in two weapon fighting. Gun Kata should keep the language, but I think the standard rifle doesn't need it as it already uses Intelligence for those rolls and doesn't need a penalty for a second ability.

Emissary Feedback (for features complete so far)


Typo: Your first level hit points should be 8 + Con mod, not 10. Also, you left at least one cleric in the spellcasting section.
Blood Magic should be formatted as a separate class feature, as it is sufficiently unique as to warrant it.
Uncanny Constitution should be titled Unarmored Defense for multiclassing rules reasons (namely, you can't gain more than one Unarmored Defense).
Ghostly should allow flying creatures to retain their original fly speed if better. Zombie should have a minimum speed.
Defy the Dead is nice.
Overall this is shaping up to deliver on the minionmancer Necro in a way that DnD 5e just doesn't do, so I'm really excited to see the rest of it.

[Requilac]

Emissary Feedback (for features complete so far)


Typo: Your first level hit points should be 8 + Con mod, not 10. Also, you left at least one cleric in the spellcasting section.
Blood Magic should be formatted as a separate class feature, as it is sufficiently unique as to warrant it.
Uncanny Constitution should be titled Unarmored Defense for multiclassing rules reasons (namely, you can't gain more than one Unarmored Defense).
Ghostly should allow flying creatures to retain their original fly speed if better. Zombie should have a minimum speed.
Defy the Dead is nice.
Overall this is shaping up to deliver on the minionmancer Necro in a way that DnD 5e just doesn't do, so I'm really excited to see the rest of it.


1) Thanks for catching me on those typos, first drafts are always vulnerable to them.
2) While blood magic is fairly unique, it is heavily intertwined with the spellcasting system and granted at 1st level. I could put it in as its own feature, but I do not see how it would improve it if I did so.
3) I forgot completely about the rules regarding unarmored defense, I will go rename the feature.
4) I don't see why the ghostly template would allow creatures to keep their flying speed. If they are ethereal than their wings are rendered useless and the flying is completely due to magic, not the creature's physical abilities.
5) Don't get too excited, the minionmancy is simply a backdrop to the true nature of the class. Just given its spell list, death walkers are much better at buffing and debuffing than using minions.

[MoleMage]

2) Mostly because this is a cool thing that only this class can do, and putting it on the table and giving it its own heading draws attention to that.
4) Many flying creatures have a terrible run speed, often as low as 5 ft (owls and bats for example). While narratively it makes sense that they aren't flying under physical power anymore, as a player I would have an expectation that the ghost version of a flying animal would still be decent at flying.
5) Buffs and debuffs are perfect minionmancer spell options. If the class feature to raise dead scales my hopes are only slightly lowered based on your response.

[pygmybatrider]

Mesmer Feedback:

[LIST]
I like the extra reactions as part of the core progression, but with the limitation of only using a particular reaction once per round I'd like to see the subclasses unlock their reaction abilities sooner.
Overall, this class is top-notch for defensive features, but they have no ability to do extra damage between level 1 and level 20 (other than ASIs) that doesn't require enemies to hit them. I would throw an ability near Countercut (plus or minus a level or two) that allows them to manipulate which ally an enemy targets, allowing the Mesmer to trigger Countercut at least somewhat reliably.
I would let Harlequin use vicious mockery in the standard fashion in addition to the bonus action version. It's not a very strong cantrip but it would fit the theme well.
Reactionary Charm is just better than Mocking Strike, as the stunned condition grants advantage on all attack rolls targeting a creature in addition to its obvious effects. The saving throw to avoid RC might pull it back into line, but it's still more attractive as a player (it's flashier and feels more impactful).

Thankyou for the feedback mate, always welcome!

1 - good point on this. I tried to make their level 3 features key off Psych Out - but that is probably a strong enough feature on its own to stand for a while. I might have a think and reshuffle their features - get a new reaction at 3, get a boost to Psych Out at 6, fluff feature at 13, capstone at 17.
2 - Countercut doesn't care who the attacker targets - the mesmer will get a reaction attack as long as they are within 5 ft of the enemy making the attack. Maybe they could get a feature alongside Lightning Reflexes at 5 that lets them make an attack when an enemy enters their reach, ala PAM? It would essentially be their Extra Attack, as combat would usually look like: Enemy moves to mesmer, mesmer gets a reaction attack (and possibly Quick Steps away). At level 11, it becomes: Enemy moves to mesmer, mesmer gets a reaction attack. Enemy attacks, mesmer gets a reaction attack. Seems to follow fighter/paladin progression well.
3 - I have thought about giving this to Harlequins at level 3, and maybe give Hypnotists Word of Radiance or Guidance or something.
4 - yeah, I agree. Mocking Strike originally granted disadv. on the next attack roll, but I thought that overlapped with Vicious Mockery. The feature definitely needs some work to bring it back in line.

Also been thinking about themes for the next contest: I'd be interested in something like "Location, Location" - based on a particular place or environment, real or imagined. Picturing Crocodile Dundees or a Samurai or a Celtic spearwielding maniac-Hulk like Cuchulainn.

I know that the 'monster class' was included in the umbrella for this contest too, but if we don't get any of those this time around, I also think that's a great idea for a standalone contest.

[BlueHairedKat]

Mesmer Feedback

First of all, this looks like a really interesting class to play, so kudos on that.
- Lightning Reflexes is a tier upgrade that doesn't really do much. You can Light Step as well as make an opportunity attack, sure, but I'm not sure that can compete with Extra Attack. I'd really want to get them a polearm...
- Countercut, on the other hand, I really like. Nice way to make what is basically 'you get an extra attack' interesting and flavorful.
- I find it very weird that Unbreakable is an 18th level ability. Not that it's bad, per se, but for a class that's all about dominance over the mind I'd expect this much earlier.
- I love Taunting Jibe.
- Hypnotic Ward should say 'activate', not 'active'.
- As already mentioned, Reactionary Charm is much better-looking than Mocking Strike.



The biotinker is coming; hopefully I'll find enough time this weekend to get it to a postable state.

[Vogie]

Deadeye Feedback


The first one is just a formatting thing; it would be nice to have a table for this class so we can visualize the progression.
I love that Intelligence is the modifier for gun shooting. You could probably remove the condition that negative Dexterity still penalizes your damage rolls; the language is not used anywhere else in 5e that I know of, plus Steady Hands already gives (admittedly very late game) incentive to prioritize Dex secondary or at least tertiary.
Stand Down feels odd in the core class (it could be a subclass feature for a commando or Walking Arsenal).
Elite Sniper's Smash Face doesn't specify how the saving throw DC is calculated. It seems like the intent is for it to be your Called Shot DC, so something like "against your Called Shot saving throw DC" would be sufficient.
Walking Arsenal's Improved Called Shots feels pretty small for a tier upgrade. I'd give them extra uses of Superiority die also.
Gun Kata doubles as the blade and gun swashbuckler, which is cool. As with the standard guns' Dexterity penalty note, you probably don't need to make the Intelligence penalty note here.
Gun Kata's Quantity over Quality doesn't fit standard subclass progression. I would fold it into Sly Flourish.
Dodge This seemed weak until I saw it also negated Dodge. Proceed.


EDIT: I found the language for applying an ability penalty but not an ability bonus in two weapon fighting. Gun Kata should keep the language, but I think the standard rifle doesn't need it as it already uses Intelligence for those rolls and doesn't need a penalty for a second ability.



Table: Added!
The potential negative Dexterity modifiers is a nod towards recoil. If you're point-buy-ing, you may not want a 7 or 8 in that feature.
Smash Face now has a DC!
Improved the 11th level ability by adding a second fighting style. Changed the name to "Trick Shooter".
The second portion of Gun-Fu, as you noted, is part of the Two Weapon Fighting standard, and that ribbon is just there as a clarification. It also is mechanically the same as the appropriate portion of Crossbow Expert, which would not work with this class, as firearms are not hand crossbows. However, if the first attack was with a melee weapon, you'd still be firing at disadvantage until you pick up Dodge This.
Quantity over Quality wouldn't work well as anything other than a 5th level ability, and is too large to be folded into Sly flourish, so it's just an ability replacement similar to what was seen in previous editions. It'd be a substantive nerf to the subclass to not have either Increased Accuracy OR Extra Attack available until 7.

[BlueHairedKat]

Hero Feedback
- I completely get the name, but it still feels a bit... generic
- Nitpicks: Extra Attack should say 'starting at 5th level' or similar. Divine Blessing is two abilities written as one. Awakened Relic lists Trinket twice instead of Focus.
- I'm so torn on Cross the Threshold. On the one hand I love the thematics of it, the way it ties in to the hero's journey. On the other hand, the ability triggering it kind of comes out of nowhere, and feels a bit box-ticky to me.
- Trinket Relic seems pretty weak compared to the others, especially once it Awakens.
- Apotheosis seems really, really good. Maybe too good?
- Is Combat Ploy intended to trigger before the attack, so that the attack fails if you move out of range? Because that's obscene as an at-will ability.

Overall: I like this, it looks reasonably well-built and quite fun, but I have one huge problem with it: In a competition themed around the unexpected, you've made a class based on the archetypal hero's journey. That's maybe the most expected thing there is.

Deadeye Feedback
- Pedantry: Several Fighting Styles refer to an accuracy roll, which hasn't been defined yet. Traditionally the Marksman Styles entry would list the levels at which they grant features. All of the wording on Stand Down is just a little funky, and the DC is unclear.
- Proficiency to damage rolls is a bit weird to have as a default
- Increased Accuracy: I see no reason why these can't be attack rolls. Keep the feature as is mechanically, sure - I actually quite like the idea of a single more powerful shot - but you're breaking the attack-check-save trichotomy while also making sure that every ability ever designed for attack rolls doesn't work on rifles.
- Dragonfire Round does an obscene amount of damage.
- Piercing Round does an unspecified amount of damage.

Overall, a pretty nice Gunslinger class. Not 100% sold on 'does not meet expectations', but it works.

Emissary Feedback
- First impression: That's a lot of class features for a class with full spellcasting based on a very useful ability score.
- Nitpickery: Hit dice refer to the class as a death-walker, spellcasting as an emissary. I'd probably list Blood Magic as its own feature.

Has promise. Waiting eagerly.

Whitescourge Feedback
- Rebuke Unlife is very good for a low-level at-will, though it does only affect the undead. I'd tone the damage down and maybe give it cantrip scaling
- To cast a spell I have to expend healing resources and take damage? Ouch. Guess I won't be casting Cure Wounds any time soon...
- I would never use Flaring Strike; if I want to attack with Constitution, there are cantrips for that.
- Exalt is very unclear on what features come at what level

Overall: There's a solid class structure here, but I think you've failed to give several of your abilities, spellcasting especially, enough oomph to make up for the downsides, and it leaves the class rather underpowered.

[pygmybatrider]

I am loving how active this thread is at the moment!

Thankyou for your feedback BlueHairedKat!

I have made a few changes to the class now and am feeling pretty good about it overall. I shuffled Unbreakable down to level 10 as I agree it came too late. That pushed Improved Psych Out back to 14, and it now functions similarly to Improved Hexblade's Curse. Mind over Matter goes up to 18, and I don't think it's out of place there as it is a powerful feature in its own right.

I gave the class its 'Extra Attack' at level 5 - a PAM-type reaction where you can make an attack against an enemy that moves within 5 ft of you. It's called Riposte at the moment because I can't think of anything better, though I know there's a clash with the BM maneuver.

Harlequin gets Vicious Mockery at 3, and Hypnotist gets Thaumaturgy - it was the most fitting cantrip I could think of for them.

Mocking Strike now adds the Harlequin's Intelligence modifier to the next successful attack against the target. I'm still not really satisfied with this feature, I will probably adjust it again before the competition closes.

I am about to make some breakfast and then I'll sit down and read through the other classes!



I still love this class. There are some minor formatting issues for me - the ASI heading is at the bottom of one column while the text is at the top of the next, and the text of the Divine Blessing feature is off the page. This might be because I'm using Chrome - not sure how GMBinder works.

Divine Quest is a beautifully thematic feature. I can imagine lots of heroes using it to ask "Why me?" over and over.

I am a little conflicted about Cross the Threshold too. It's just so different to any other class feature in 5e - almost like it does not meet our expectations. Heroics: Sacrifice is great. I'm not sure that Returned Hero needs to add your Charisma modifier to Heroic Fortitude on top of the other benefits, though.

Divine Blessing really is two features in one, and I'm not sure you need both of them. It looks like you are trying to make it so that if the creature already has a vulnerability, you get to exploit it, and if it doesn't, you have a way to force it to anyway. I can see where you're coming from, and that it's more about luck/guidance influencing your strikes than just doing extra damage, but I'd be tempted to keep the fluff and just swap the mechanics to a reskinned Improved Divine Smite. The wording is a little confusing.

Awakened Relic: woohoo! I love this, but think that they could probably be streamlined. Relic Weapon could upgrade to a +1 in addition to its benefits. Trinket does feel a bit underpowered. Maybe you can simply re-roll it, and choose which die to keep? Then get advantage, or a +Cha mod boost, to your next saving throw, to keep it in-line with the other relics? I think the Relic Focus is a bit weak too. It gets better if you remove the 'damage dealing' part - a 1st-level blasting spell at level 13 is hardly ever going to be worth it, but Find Familiar or Faerie Fire will be. Maybe gain a boost to your next cantrip damage as well?

Apotheosis does seem really strong on paper, as does Fortune's Favoured. I guess I do have to remember that you're a d6 class that relies pretty heavily on your heroics dice. Might come back to these with suggestions for edits as I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

Mighty Destiny: at this stage I'd like to point out that I love that you've tied the Hero's strong save to their choice of subclass. Really great idea. Feats of Strength is a good fluff/utility feature. Beacon of Courage is probably okay but could also be toned down to using your BA to make a check to beat the fear, or to let your ally use their reaction to re-attempt the save. I don't have much experience with fear so I don't know if it's really a strong enough condition to break that it needs to be scaled down. Capstone seems fine - haven't done the math but you should be doing a buttload of damage by now, which is good for a d6 martial.

Cunning Destiny: still think Backup Plan is a good use of Heroics. The way I'm reading Combat Ploy is that you avoid the initial attack, deal some damage, but if the attacker still has movement left he can close the gap and try again. In that way of reading things, I don't think it's too overpowered. If it wastes the attacker's attack action, it probably is, as the movement is at-will, while the damage is tied to heroics dice. Evasive Tactics is fine, a nice twist on the rogue/ranger Evasion. Improved Heroics - you could probably re-word this to say that using Combat Ploy restores your reaction for the round. I might be biased but I like the idea of granting extra reactions... :)

Can't wait to see the Mystic Destiny!

In terms of theme, I think this class hits the mark for not meeting expectations. A d6 hit die, a versatile base class that can take 3 very different directions, the unique nature of some of the features (particularly Cross the Threshold). If not mechanically, then thematically, the Hero themself is doing the opposite of what was expected of them, as a lowly farmer's son/boring noble's daughter/wild child from the woods is shedding off their history to become something much greater. A cliche, sure - that's the point of the whole archetypal journey, but still fitting, I think.






Woohoo, a class table! This just makes thing much quicker to digest, and the progression easier to follow. I can see now that Called Shots sort of take the spot of spell levels for a half-caster, and I like that a lot. It does seem a little odd to get your 4th Extra Attack-analogue as well on top of the ability to insta-kill at level 20. On that note, I still don't really understand the mechanical difference between Improved Accuracy and Extra Attack. Sorry, maybe I am just a little slow.

Thankyou for dropping in the descriptions for Called Shots! I love the extra effects here, Wing Shot in particular - I'm not really sure how to justify Gag Shot working in real life, but I like it as an anti-caster mechanic.

I am still a little worried about the Walking Arsenal gaining access to 4 8d8 Lightning Bolt analogues at 3rd level.

I do think the class has come together nicely, and all three subclasses would be fun to play. Good stuff 8-)

Thematically, using Int for attacks, guns in DnD, and some of the more modern/camo abilities set it apart from any other class enough for it to not meet my expectations. Ticked that box!





Class Table does seem like a lot of features for a fullcaster, but then we already have the Bard. A d8 hit dice, and shields, and Unarmoured Defense, and an incentive to stack Con will probably make this the tankiest fullcaster as well. I have always been hesitant of casting from Con as it makes for a very SAD caster. Let's take a closer look before I judge anything though!

I like the descriptions of your spellcasting focus. You could probably name this as a 'necromantic focus' or something similar to keep the pattern with arcane focus, holy symbol etc.

Blood Magic is awesome. The hit points seem appropriate to spell level to me.

I too like the potential for minionmancy with Toll the Bell. The wording could probably still be cleaned up to make it read easier. I do feel like this is a lot of work for the DM, to find the base creature's statistics, and then apply the template, for up to 6 different creatures per long rest. To me, the ghost template seems much, much stronger than the other two as well.

Spell list seems extensive and thematic, about right for a full caster. Look forward to seeing more!







Love the fluff at the start. Really helps to get a sense of the class before you dive into the mechanics. Definitely twists the 'holy warrior' archetype on its head, fits the contest well!

Proficiencies, hit die, skills, all look good. Class Table makes this look like a spontaneous 3rd caster? Interesting!

Snippets of Power: gives me the same hesitation that the Deathwalker does, as casting from Constitution, while definitely unique, gives spellcasters one main attribute to pump. If the Whitescourge is a gish, it's probably going to want a high Con anyway, so it's putting strength on strength. Thematically, cleric cantrips fit the fluff perfectly.

Primal Resilience is early to gain resistance, and 9th is early to gain immunity, and 16th is a strange feature, but radiant is so rare a damage type for monsters to have that I can't even remember the last time it came up in a game. It's probably fine, and again, very thematic.

Rebuke Unlife definitely needs to scale. I'd probably start it out as 1d10 or 2d6, and bump it up an additional 1d10 or 1d6 at cantrip levels.

Spellcasting section should probably say max 4th level to match the class table? Not sure how you intended this to work.

Vision of the Heartseer probably doesn't need to be rounded, and the wording could then be cleaned up a bit.

Unquenchable Life is essentially DR6. I'd probably make it scale off either Strength or Con mod, just to encourage boosting that stat.

Pulsing Form should probably be a reaction so you can only trigger it once per round.

Restoration looks good for a capstone.

I think there is a lot of Overlap between Burning Blade and Exalt Centers. One, you make your sword catch fire, the other, your fists. You could probably make this a two-subclass base class; one healer, one damage dealer. I did find the subclasses hard to read in their current form, so my opinion might change with later drafts.
.

[SunderedWorldDM]

Whitescourge Feedback
- Rebuke Unlife is very good for a low-level at-will, though it does only affect the undead. I'd tone the damage down and maybe give it cantrip scaling
- To cast a spell I have to expend healing resources and take damage? Ouch. Guess I won't be casting Cure Wounds any time soon...
- I would never use Flaring Strike; if I want to attack with Constitution, there are cantrips for that.
- Exalt is very unclear on what features come at what level

Overall: There's a solid class structure here, but I think you've failed to give several of your abilities, spellcasting especially, enough oomph to make up for the downsides, and it leaves the class rather underpowered.
Fixed Rebuke Unlife, thanks. I added in Expedited Rejuvenation to help avoid the feeling of losing HD, which a normal character gets back so slowly, considering a good chunk of this class revolves around using HD, but I'm not sure if it makes the class too powerful. And I know Exalt is problematic, I'm trying to adapt it.

Thanks for your feedback!

[SunderedWorldDM]

I am loving how active this thread is at the moment!
[spoiler=Whitescourge]

Love the fluff at the start. Really helps to get a sense of the class before you dive into the mechanics. Definitely twists the 'holy warrior' archetype on its head, fits the contest well!

Proficiencies, hit die, skills, all look good. Class Table makes this look like a spontaneous 3rd caster? Interesting!

Snippets of Power: gives me the same hesitation that the Deathwalker does, as casting from Constitution, while definitely unique, gives spellcasters one main attribute to pump. If the Whitescourge is a gish, it's probably going to want a high Con anyway, so it's putting strength on strength. Thematically, cleric cantrips fit the fluff perfectly.

Primal Resilience is early to gain resistance, and 9th is early to gain immunity, and 16th is a strange feature, but radiant is so rare a damage type for monsters to have that I can't even remember the last time it came up in a game. It's probably fine, and again, very thematic.

Rebuke Unlife definitely needs to scale. I'd probably start it out as 1d10 or 2d6, and bump it up an additional 1d10 or 1d6 at cantrip levels.

Spellcasting section should probably say max 4th level to match the class table? Not sure how you intended this to work.

Vision of the Heartseer probably doesn't need to be rounded, and the wording could then be cleaned up a bit.

Unquenchable Life is essentially DR6. I'd probably make it scale off either Strength or Con mod, just to encourage boosting that stat.

Pulsing Form should probably be a reaction so you can only trigger it once per round.

Restoration looks good for a capstone.

I think there is a lot of Overlap between Burning Blade and Exalt Centers. One, you make your sword catch fire, the other, your fists. You could probably make this a two-subclass base class; one healer, one damage dealer. I did find the subclasses hard to read in their current form, so my opinion might change with later drafts.

Vision of the Heartseer, Pulsing Form, and Rebuke Unlife have all been fixed. Thanks!

Unquenchable Life, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't want to make too much of the class so heavily dependent on the one score, so if a Whitescourge were to have a CON of 18 instead of 20 they wouldn't be left by the wayside (bit overenthusiastic, but the point stands). I think I'll keep it Proficiency.

For Snippets of Power, is your concern that if you give the Whitescourge just one ability to focus on for survival, it'll be unbalanced? See, I recognize that, and what I'm trying to do is to make most abilities have some form of HP or healing cost so that it won't feel like the Whitescourge just has a crazy amount of health before making them nigh-unkillable at higher levels. If you can think of any specifics on how to reel it in, let me know!

Spellcasting: I've added Expedited Rejuvenation. This ability lets the Whitescourge gain half hit dice at a short rest, and all on a long rest. Makes their spellcasting more effective, as well as the other HD-dependent abilities.

You also said something about the 9th level cap. The wording is 'the level you wanted to cast the spell at'. So say I'm a 13th level Whitescourge and I want to cast Cure Wounds on my buddy. But my buddy's really hurt, and he needs a lot of healing. So I drop 7 HD while casting to cast it as a 7th level spell. The risk-reward is further balanced by that versatility- if a normal spellcaster were to use their one fourth-level slot, no more 4th level spells. But a Whitescourge can use 4th level spells 3-5 times in the upper levels.

Thanks for the feedback! Keep it coming. I'll work on cleaning up the subclasses and fleshing out the class abilities.

[Requilac]

Okay, I have completed the base class features for the deathwalker/emissary of Zihnn class. You will probably recognize that altogether the class seems largely underpowered. That is because the class is a full casting class and I wanted to ensure that it would not become overpowered. I will be working on the subclass features and flavor descriptions later.


2) Mostly because this is a cool thing that only this class can do, and putting it on the table and giving it its own heading draws attention to that.
4) Many flying creatures have a terrible run speed, often as low as 5 ft (owls and bats for example). While narratively it makes sense that they aren't flying under physical power anymore, as a player I would have an expectation that the ghost version of a flying animal would still be decent at flying.
5) Buffs and debuffs are perfect minionmancer spell options. If the class feature to raise dead scales my hopes are only slightly lowered based on your response.

2) Fair enough, I will make it its own feature and bump it to level 3. There was another feature I wanted to include at level 3, but I decided to remove it once I recognized how oddly complex it would work in game.
4) Yes, I forgot about the slow walking speed of many flying creatures. I will just make the ghost's movement a static 30 ft., regardless of the creature's walking speed.
5) Toll the Bell does not really get that much better over the levels. The only thing that really gets added to the feature later on is Parasitic Bond and some of the subclasses may get a level 17 feature which has an aura that effects the undead servants.

[SunderedWorldDM]

I'm going to do my best to put my 2 cents in, but I'm not the greatest and homebrew and balance testing, so take anything I say with a grain of salt!

MESMER
-I can definitely see the rogue influences here, and while the classes are similar, you took this in a wildly different direction, so no need to worry there! I also like how most of your abilities are short and to the point, something I'm striving to do with the Whitescourge!
-Quick Thinking: does the Intelligence modifier stack on top of the normal ability? For example, I have a +1 STR and +4 INT. I make an Athletics check with QT. Do I add a +4 or +5 due to my ability scores?
-Social Savant: If it's only for Deception vs. Insight, the name is a bit of a misnomer. I would consider expanding the skills to include Persuasion or call it something different, like 'Calculating Liar' or the like.
-The Approaches feel... odd. Reading the flavor text and the abilities, they make sense, but just from the names, you wouldn't know how they connect to the theme. Possibly try renaming them to make them mesh better with the rest of the class? i.e. Hypnotist could become Manipulator or Influence, and Harlequin could be... something else. Just a suggestion, and I know that you're attached to the names of your subclasses, but maybe it would help clarity?

Good class, good concept, and good execution! Just a couple of minor phrasing things and I think it's good to go.

HERO
I can't access GMBinder at the moment. If and when I can, I'll check back and review the Hero. Sorry I couldn't give you any feedback!

DEADEYE
-This One is Mine: The wording of the properties of the rifle seem a bit clumsy. Try cleaning it up and reducing it to one sentence?
-Marksman Styles: It seems like you started typing a sentence, got distracted, and forgot to finish. At least put a period on!:smallwink:
-Increased Accuracy: I can't see what the major difference between this and multiattack. Why not just make it multiattack?
-I like how your class features are reminiscent of military tactics and the class is more a soldier than a flamboyant, pistol-holding, baggy-pant-wearing swashbuckler!
-Archetypes and Called Shots, without heavy analysis, looks good!

Nice class, different from the more romantic archetype and gritter than the other options I've seen. I would just ask what makes this class so unexpected? There's a lot of INT-based gunslingers out there...

DEATHWALKER
-It's interesting: the Whitescourge and the Deathwalker are almost exact polar opposites. Both draw immense power from an outside plane, use their stamina to cast spells and utilize the energy, and represent opposite ends of the life spectrum! Great minds think alike, I suppose...
-The lack of flavor text breaks my description-loving little heart. I assume you'l add some in later?
-15 hit points for a 1st level slot? That feels like a lot, considering a 1st level character might (will) die from that. Maybe consider rescaling Blood Magic just a tad?
-Without my beloved flavor text to give a lore explanation, Walk Between Worlds feels out of place. All of a sudden, when there once was a pure necro class, now we can traverse the planes? Some context for the ability would be nice.

Very nice! I see no balance issues, just some thematic things. Flavor text should clear it right up!

[Requilac]

DEATHWALKER
-It's interesting: the Whitescourge and the Deathwalker are almost exact polar opposites. Both draw immense power from an outside plane, use their stamina to cast spells and utilize the energy, and represent opposite ends of the life spectrum! Great minds think alike, I suppose...
-The lack of flavor text breaks my description-loving little heart. I assume you'l add some in later?
-15 hit points for a 1st level slot? That feels like a lot, considering a 1st level character might (will) die from that. Maybe consider rescaling Blood Magic just a tad?
-Without my beloved flavor text to give a lore explanation, Walk Between Worlds feels out of place. All of a sudden, when there once was a pure necro class, now we can traverse the planes? Some context for the ability would be nice.

Very nice! I see no balance issues, just some thematic things. Flavor text should clear it right up!

1) I will indeed by adding in a great amount of flavor text as soon as I can find the time. Deathwalkers were self-tailored for a specific campaign setting, and they are pretty crucial there. Basically deathwalkers are necromancers that pool their power from another plane of existence known as Zihnn. Zihnn used to be a desolate cavern only full of bestial monsters that cannibalized each other in the darkness, but once the Gods died the souls of the dead started drifting to its necromantic energies. Some living people have found ways to siphon power from this plane via Astral Projection, mainly through manifesting curses and the raising of the dead. Arcane casters draw power from R'lyeh, divine casters draw power from Leng, animist/nature casters draw power from Sylwyth, but Deathwalkers draw their power from the fourth plane; Zihnn. Much more will be revealed later.

2) Blood Magic I worry would become too overpowered very easily. The high HP cost makes one reluctant to do it, but that is intentional. I don't want people spamming blood magic. Judging by the fact those spells on average only do a little damage then they take to fuel, It is a point of complication.

3) Deathwalkers are just as much ferrymen on the River Styx as they are necromancers. By 20th level they sort of ascend into psychopomp status. Through that ability they actually can lead the souls of the dead through Zihnn. They basically can turn into Charon by max level, which was a big inspiration for this class really.

[pygmybatrider]

I'm going to do my best to put my 2 cents in, but I'm not the greatest and homebrew and balance testing, so take anything I say with a grain of salt!

MESMER
-I can definitely see the rogue influences here, and while the classes are similar, you took this in a wildly different direction, so no need to worry there! I also like how most of your abilities are short and to the point, something I'm striving to do with the Whitescourge!
-Quick Thinking: does the Intelligence modifier stack on top of the normal ability? For example, I have a +1 STR and +4 INT. I make an Athletics check with QT. Do I add a +4 or +5 due to my ability scores?
-Social Savant: If it's only for Deception vs. Insight, the name is a bit of a misnomer. I would consider expanding the skills to include Persuasion or call it something different, like 'Calculating Liar' or the like.
-The Approaches feel... odd. Reading the flavor text and the abilities, they make sense, but just from the names, you wouldn't know how they connect to the theme. Possibly try renaming them to make them mesh better with the rest of the class? i.e. Hypnotist could become Manipulator or Influence, and Harlequin could be... something else. Just a suggestion, and I know that you're attached to the names of your subclasses, but maybe it would help clarity?

Good class, good concept, and good execution! Just a couple of minor phrasing things and I think it's good to go!

Woo, thanks for reading and commenting!

On Quick Thinking, yep, that was the intention. I’ve cleaned up the wording a bit, hopefully that stops any confusion. For Social Savant, the benefit applies to the mesmers insight checks on others as well, so the social part came from being adept at reading other people. Might need some more flavour text in there to clarify.

I get your point on the names subclasses, and it’s fair critique. But like you point out I am pretty attached to them at this point. I like to think that the mesmer base class is a set of skills and abilities that the character innately has, and their approach is more like their day job than a special branch of psychic powers. I’m sure there are plenty of mesmers who would be doctors or lawyers rather than clowns or spoon benders, but they were the two I ran with for this competition.

I’ve also updated Mental Dominance, Paych Out and the Harlequin’s Mocking Strike. It’s been fun (read: a pain) trying to balance all these abilities, and avoid stepping on each other’s toes or stacking up to end up overpowered.

In regards to your Whitescourge, I stopped being worried about using Con for casting when I saw the hit dice mechanic. No dramas there now! I will have to have a closer look in the next couple of days because I must have been confused about the way their casting worked in regards to spell slot levels. Looking forward to reading revised subclasses!

[Vogie]

Stand Down feels odd in the core class (it could be a subclass feature for a commando or Walking Arsenal).

Missed this on the first go-round. The whole class is a commando class - hence why things like Ghillie Suit, Tactical cover and Silencer are part of the base class.


It does seem a little odd to get your 4th Extra Attack-analogue as well on top of the ability to insta-kill at level 20.

That's a good point. I've now made it that your 20th level feature always ignores resistance to piercing, then the player can choose EITHER Increased Accuracy (x4) OR Vorpal Headshot. Snipers & Gun Kata players will probably lean towards Headshot, while Arsenals would lean towards another increased accuracy die (because they already have an increased crit range, and all abilities are based on weapon hit)



I am still a little worried about the Walking Arsenal gaining access to 4 8d8 Lightning Bolt analogues at 3rd level.

Adjusted damage, so it's now more like a Fireball, dealing 6d8 instead of 8d6 damage, and limited to 2. It still has the Lightning Bolt mechanic, though



Thematically, using Int for attacks, guns in DnD, and some of the more modern/camo abilities set it apart from any other class enough for it to not meet my expectations. Ticked that box!


Thanks!



-Marksman Styles: It seems like you started typing a sentence, got distracted, and forgot to finish. At least put a period on!:smallwink:

Fixed!

I also removed proficiency to damage, that was a goof.



-Increased Accuracy: I can't see what the major difference between this and multiattack. Why not just make it multiattack?
Mechanically, it's identical to "Multiattack" or "extra attack"... except without the "multi" or "extra". A 20th level deadeye gives the player the physical dice roll that is *exactly the same* as a 20th level fighter... but instead of 4 individual attacks, it's one attack. You're still rolling 4 dice, and dealing damage based on the amount of hits, but it's only on a single target, because you're pulling the trigger precisely once. A unique difference is that if you have advantage on a single attack, all accuracy rolls are made with advantage... because it's just one attack.

This is also important because of the Loading property that Rifles and Crossbows have -

Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.
Multiple attacks and Extra Attacks don't work with such a property by definition.

The feel, playstyle-wise, is actually closer to the comparison between Fire Bolt and Eldritch Blast. At high level, both spells are dealing 4d10 damage to their target, but EB could potentially hit 4 different targets (and trigger hits 4 different times for things like Hex or Hexblade's Curse), and FB can only hit one target (and trigger a hit only once). The Increased accuracy mechanic is like a hybrid between the two - You're rolling attack and damage as though you're attacking a target with 4 rays, but it only counts as a single hit.

The Gun Kata subclass eschews that by allowing one-handed firearms that do have the extra attack/multiattack feature.

The Deadeye player could just as easily play the Elite Sniper or Walking Arsenal without a firearm, and using a heavy Crossbow.

[SunderedWorldDM]

2) Blood Magic I worry would become too overpowered very easily. The high HP cost makes one reluctant to do it, but that is intentional. I don't want people spamming blood magic. Judging by the fact those spells on average only do a little damage then they take to fuel, It is a point of complication.

3) Deathwalkers are just as much ferrymen on the River Styx as they are necromancers. By 20th level they sort of ascend into psychopomp status. Through that ability they actually can lead the souls of the dead through Zihnn. They basically can turn into Charon by max level, which was a big inspiration for this class really.
Okay, that makes sense. For a moment I forgot the class still had actual spell slots as opposed to purely hit-point based casting. (This thread ain't big enough for the both of us...)

I love that explanation, where eventually they become so attuned to Zihnn and death itself that they can transport souls to their respective afterlives! Could you put something like that in the flavor text of the Walk Between Worlds ability?



Woo, thanks for reading and commenting!

On Quick Thinking, yep, that was the intention. I’ve cleaned up the wording a bit, hopefully that stops any confusion. For Social Savant, the benefit applies to the mesmers insight checks on others as well, so the social part came from being adept at reading other people. Might need some more flavour text in there to clarify.

I get your point on the names subclasses, and it’s fair critique. But like you point out I am pretty attached to them at this point. I like to think that the mesmer base class is a set of skills and abilities that the character innately has, and their approach is more like their day job than a special branch of psychic powers. I’m sure there are plenty of mesmers who would be doctors or lawyers rather than clowns or spoon benders, but they were the two I ran with for this competition.

I’ve also updated Mental Dominance, Paych Out and the Harlequin’s Mocking Strike. It’s been fun (read: a pain) trying to balance all these abilities, and avoid stepping on each other’s toes or stacking up to end up overpowered.

In regards to your Whitescourge, I stopped being worried about using Con for casting when I saw the hit dice mechanic. No dramas there now! I will have to have a closer look in the next couple of days because I must have been confused about the way their casting worked in regards to spell slot levels. Looking forward to reading revised subclasses!
Quick Thinking is now much clearer, as is the reasoning behind Social Savant. And the subclasses, your reasoning makes sense, but if you have the time or willpower, I would consider adding in another subclass that's more mundane just to show that side of the coin exists and that the Mesmer isn't just people who run around with swirly glasses on their face or in a puppet suit!



Mechanically, it's identical to "Multiattack" or "extra attack"... except without the "multi" or "extra". A 20th level deadeye gives the player the physical dice roll that is *exactly the same* as a 20th level fighter... but instead of 4 individual attacks, it's one attack. You're still rolling 4 dice, and dealing damage based on the amount of hits, but it's only on a single target, because you're pulling the trigger precisely once. A unique difference is that if you have advantage on a single attack, all accuracy rolls are made with advantage... because it's just one attack.

This is also important because of the Loading property that Rifles and Crossbows have -

Multiple attacks and Extra Attacks don't work with such a property by definition.

The feel, playstyle-wise, is actually closer to the comparison between Fire Bolt and Eldritch Blast. At high level, both spells are dealing 4d10 damage to their target, but EB could potentially hit 4 different targets (and trigger hits 4 different times for things like Hex or Hexblade's Curse), and FB can only hit one target (and trigger a hit only once). The Increased accuracy mechanic is like a hybrid between the two - You're rolling attack and damage as though you're attacking a target with 4 rays, but it only counts as a single hit.


This makes it much more clear! I'll review the actual language used in the class to see if it's comprehensible to someone who hasn't received an explanation.
EDIT: It's not. Even when I go through again, it reads the exact same as Multiattack to me. Try making it more clear that it's technically one attack, but you're testing to hit multiple times to deal more damage?

[BlueHairedKat]

A version of the Biotinker is up. Review welcome, because I have a lot of worries:

- Does the Augmentation system do funny things to power level (you can't put ribbons at certain levels, as you can always just choose a lower-leveled ability). Would replacing the fighter-y bonus ASIs with ribbons help with this?
- Does the Augmentation system, fundamentally, work in 5e, or do I need to scrap it entirely? (I've been playing some Pathfinder 2e recently, and while it has a lot of flaws I really like its approach to classes; this is an homage to that which also fits with 'does not meet expectations').
- Is it too monk-ish, with Weaponised Form being a mandatory first-level feature? I feel like the class should default to unarmed strikes, but I could also move it into the Augmentations and give more of those at 1st.
- Is it cohesive? It's effectively a big grab bad of abilities, and I worry that that could become rather athematic. I have tried my hardest to keep the abilities matching that feel.

[Requilac]

I love that explanation, where eventually they become so attuned to Zihnn and death itself that they can transport souls to their respective afterlives! Could you put something like that in the flavor text of the Walk Between Worlds ability?



Yes, I will make sure to write a new description for Walk Between Worlds so that it mentions that as soon as I get them time. Thank you so much for your commentary, I will be writing the flavor text soon and I hope you take a liking to it. I shall try to get around to reviewing your class if I find the time.

[Vogie]

This makes it much more clear! I'll review the actual language used in the class to see if it's comprehensible to someone who hasn't received an explanation.
EDIT: It's not. Even when I go through again, it reads the exact same as Multiattack to me. Try making it more clear that it's technically one attack, but you're testing to hit multiple times to deal more damage?

I've changed it to

Beginning at 5th level, you gain the ability to increase your rifle damage output by firing your single shot more precisely. Whenever you take the Attack action with a two-handed ranged weapon with the loading property on your turn, you can roll 2 Accuracy dice instead. These dice are also d20s, and are rolled independently of each other; if you have advantage or disadvantage on your attack roll, you roll each accuracy die with either advantage or disadvantage. For each of the rolls, plus modifiers, that would equal or exceed the target’s AC, you roll damage, plus modifiers.

Is that more clear?

[SunderedWorldDM]

I've changed it to


Is that more clear?

Much, thank you!

[MoleMage]

Doing a Hero update based on feedback received.


Fixed a couple of formatting/typing errors.
Some class features were renamed/refluffed to be based on fate rather than divine intervention to further distinguish the narrative space of this class.
Relic Trinket now specifies that the additional heroics die it grants is restored on a short or long rest.
Returned Hero is now limited to the free rez effect in baseline, with an extra effect based on Destiny. The old bonus to death saves was moved to the Mighty Destiny. See the Cunning and newly complete Mystic Destinies for their own unique Returned Hero benefits.
Fated Warrior (new Divine Blessing) now causes all weapon attacks to deal 1d6 bonus damage. This bonus damage ignores resistances and immunities, but normal weapon damage does not.
Awakened Trinket now grants a bonus to saving throws on spending a dice, and its passive has changed to granting an additional extra use of Heroics. Awakened Weapon now counts as a +1 weapon. Awakened Focus no longer requires a damage dealing spell and now increases the next cantrip damage on spending a heroics die (much like relic weapon's die effect).
Apotheosis tuned down. The health restore was maintained, and it now causes 1s and 2s on the heroic die to be treated as 3s. All other effects removed.
Fortune's Favored crit range increase reduced to 19; otherwise unchanged.
Combat Ploy changed slightly. It now requires a Heroics die to use the movement portion also and grants +2 AC against the triggering attack (+3 with Improved Heroics).
Improved Heroics (Combat Ploy) wording clarified. The first Combat Ploy each round no longer requires or expends a Reaction.
The Mystic Destiny is written. The capstone is tentative for now (the boring part feels too strong compared to Cunning and Mighty, while the interesting part feels to niche).


EDIT: I will get reviews for Whitescourge, Biotinker, and the rest of Emissary up tomorrow. If anyone else wants me to take a second look at their class because of large edits let me know.

[pygmybatrider]

Doing a Hero update based on feedback received.

EDIT: I will get reviews for Whitescourge, Biotinker, and the rest of Emissary up tomorrow. If anyone else wants me to take a second look at their class because of large edits let me know.

If you've got the time, I'd love a second glance at at the mesmer - mainly just how the Psych Out, Mental Dominance, and subclass 17th level features interplay. There's been a lot of chopping and changing with those three and I want to make sure they make sense to someone who isn't me.

Your hero changes sound good to me - particularly the awakened items buffs - I will check them out with the Mystic Destiny this arvo.

[MoleMage]

If you've got the time, I'd love a second glance at at the mesmer - mainly just how the Psych Out, Mental Dominance, and subclass 17th level features interplay. There's been a lot of chopping and changing with those three and I want to make sure they make sense to someone who isn't me.

Your hero changes sound good to me - particularly the awakened items buffs - I will check them out with the Mystic Destiny this arvo.


I think the change to incapacitated for Reactionary Charm is good, since it's at-will and stunned is really strong.
Mocking Strike I think you could just tack the damage directly onto the attack that activates it rather than making it trigger on the next attack. It's cleaner without drastically changing the numbers.
I like the new Psych Out (no crit-fishing multiclass, just straight up accuracy).
Mental Dominance triggering on misses has a negative interaction with other class features that boost accuracy (especially Psych Out), which typically feels bad, but it also mitigates bad dumb luck with misses, which feels good. I'm torn. As a gut instinct, I'm not a fan personally, but I can see some players being really excited to pick that up.


Whitescourge


Convention is to spell out the saving throw DC formula every time. That said, we all know it, so I won't count it against you come voting time.
There's an ASI missing from your class chart at level 16 (checked the text and it's still there in the text part).
Primal Resilience (2) probably doesn't need to give immunity to people already resistant since they'll get it at 9. Primal Resilience (16) wording could be more open so that it applies to other sources of divine magic as well (including enemy Whitescourges).
Whitescourge Spellcasting is great, especially for this theme because of how unique it is, but you might want to put a limit based on class level on the maximum amount you can spend, or you'll have scourges throwing around 8th level spiritual weapon 7 levels before a cleric could.
Necrotic damage has some odd rules implications. For example, an undead Whitescourge (which by fluff should be an oxymoron) would be better at casting spells because of their necrotic resistance/immunity. As a damage type it fits the theme (you are literally giving up life force in order to cast spells), it only becomes weird when you look at what other things interact with necrotic damage.
In addition to getting hit dice back each short rest, you might give Expedited Revitalization some built-in short rest healing; they might need those hit dice to perform core functions like spellcasting. On a related note, can I spend hit dice I gain during a short rest immediately or do I have to wait until the next short rest?
Eternal Vitality could give full immunity to disease and poisoned (the condition), and should probably be a level earlier (level 11 should be a tier upgrade, and Eternal Vitality isn't impactful enough for that).
Vision of the Heartseer has too many restrictions. I would suggest allowing it to be used once successfully per long rest. You could also make it require one minute of study (no check or limited uses) similar to Battlemaster Fighter or Mastermind Rogues' features that detect game stats.
Unquenchable Life's wording is odd. It looks like it's supposed to be on your next turn you get the healing, but as written it would be you get healing on your turn if you took damage on that turn. Alternate wording suggestion: "At the start of your turn, if you have taken damage since the start of your last turn, you regain hit points equal to your proficiency bonus. This ability does not function if any of the damage taken in that time was necrotic damage."
You get a new spell level at 17, but it isn't one of the "tier upgrade" spell levels (3, 6, or 9); a class feature for the tier upgrade should go here.
Pulsing Form should have the level it's acquired in the text of the ability.


Overall, the core class is really neat. It suffers from health attrition a lot though. I'd like to see either extra hit points per level (a la dragon sorcerer) or some way to regain hit points beyond hit dice, since you likely want to bank all of your hit dice for spellcasting.


Woundknitter's Pool of Life is a cool feature, but it doesn't actually restore any hit points, just moves them around (until Unquenchable Life kicks in at 15 that is).
Woundknitter's Death's Ward is redundant with spare the dying. It also shares its name with an existing spell.
Exalt's Exarch form requires unarmed strikes for bonus damage, but no other part of the class interacts with them (though I guess I didn't expect that so you could leave it in if you wanted).
How does Burning Blade's Mastery of Flame interact with Brilliant Technique?


Of the subclasses, Woundknitter feels the weakest right now; it feels like it should fill the main healer role, but since it draws on your own hit points (which are already harder to regain than other classes per my comments on the main class) to do so, it winds up being mostly a status-quo or sometimes an overall loss. Exalt feels similarly strong, while Burning Blade feels like it's hit the balance point just about right (though I'd like the damage of Brilliant Technique to be based on levels in Whitescourge or an ability score rather than proficiency bonus).


Emissary


Toll the Bell: I'm not a fan of proficiency modifier as a number-of-uses determiner (I missed this on my first read-through).
Defy the Dead should probably treat immunity as resistance, at least early on (it could improve later on).
Parasitic Bond is neat, and is kept from being too strong by the limitation of creatures of CR 1/4 or lower for Toll the Bell.
Walk Between Worlds could use a wording clarification, as it was hard for me to follow which plane it was referring to.



Core class looks good, all of the mid-range features I didn't mention here felt right to me. Looking forward to subclasses!

Biotinker


I'd like to see more body augmentations available (especially early on, maybe getting extra augmentations at 4, 6, and 10 but not new augmentation tiers), since they are taking the place of core features and the class has a pretty bare-bones list at the current rate.
Some augmentations are nearly mandatory (such as Guidance System or Extra Attack) in order to stay competitive, while others are just going to always be a good option (Improved Durability and Unarmored Defense-Int). Instead of increasing number of augmentations (or possibly in addition to doing so), you could make these core features.
Toxicology (Poison Injection) doesn't specify save DC. "against your body augmentation saving throw DC" would be sufficient.
Immunology is fine balance wise, but unexciting as its features are just clones of other classes' features. It would be nice to see something new here (or, as I mention in the next bullet, these features but with a twist).
Similarly, some of your current augmentations are just clones of existing features (especially the tier upgrade ones). This is obviously a necessity of homebrew, especially for such a modular class, but they would be more compelling if they had a unique twist to differentiate them from existing features. For example, your Unarmored Defense augmentation could give a static armor class or 13+Int instead of 10+Dex+Int, allowing the Biotinker to dump Dex if they wish (something no other unarmored defense class can do).
Reinforced Chassis gives Con saves way too early. The earliest any core class gets a extra saving throw proficiency is monk at 14 (all saves), and the only other one is rogue at 15 (Wis only). I'd say you could put an extra save as early as 9 if that was the only effect of the augmentation, but even that might be too soon for a primary save.



I haven't done a deep reading pass of augmentations yet (I did mention a couple above from my skim through), but I like the core concept you've established for the class. At a glance, it might end up too strong (it gets multiple options for tier upgrade levels, and it can choose all of them, several before even the next tier upgrade), and it is probably the second biggest one-stat-wonder class (after my own submission), which makes for either really interesting characters or really uninteresting characters. I'll have to take another look when the rest of the augmentations are written.


EDIT: What's the policy on multiple submissions? I told my table about this and they suggested a Chef class, which made me want to make a class that scales their combat effectiveness based on Artisan's Tools instead of weapons (with subclasses for Chef, Carpenter, and Tailor, among potential others). Probably gonna make it either way. Might replace my Hero if it falls together well.

[SunderedWorldDM]

Whitescourge

[LIST]
Convention is to spell out the saving throw DC formula every time. That said, we all know it, so I won't count it against you come voting time.
There's an ASI missing from your class chart at level 16 (checked the text and it's still there in the text part).
Primal Resilience (2) probably doesn't need to give immunity to people already resistant since they'll get it at 9. Primal Resilience (16) wording could be more open so that it applies to other sources of divine magic as well (including enemy Whitescourges).
Whitescourge Spellcasting is great, especially for this theme because of how unique it is, but you might want to put a limit based on class level on the maximum amount you can spend, or you'll have scourges throwing around 8th level spiritual weapon 7 levels before a cleric could.
Necrotic damage has some odd rules implications. For example, an undead Whitescourge (which by fluff should be an oxymoron) would be better at casting spells because of their necrotic resistance/immunity. As a damage type it fits the theme (you are literally giving up life force in order to cast spells), it only becomes weird when you look at what other things interact with necrotic damage.
In addition to getting hit dice back each short rest, you might give Expedited Revitalization some built-in short rest healing; they might need those hit dice to perform core functions like spellcasting. On a related note, can I spend hit dice I gain during a short rest immediately or do I have to wait until the next short rest?
Eternal Vitality could give full immunity to disease and poisoned (the condition), and should probably be a level earlier (level 11 should be a tier upgrade, and Eternal Vitality isn't impactful enough for that).
Vision of the Heartseer has too many restrictions. I would suggest allowing it to be used once successfully per long rest. You could also make it require one minute of study (no check or limited uses) similar to Battlemaster Fighter or Mastermind Rogues' features that detect game stats.
Unquenchable Life's wording is odd. It looks like it's supposed to be on your next turn you get the healing, but as written it would be you get healing on your turn if you took damage on that turn. Alternate wording suggestion: "At the start of your turn, if you have taken damage since the start of your last turn, you regain hit points equal to your proficiency bonus. This ability does not function if any of the damage taken in that time was necrotic damage."
You get a new spell level at 17, but it isn't one of the "tier upgrade" spell levels (3, 6, or 9); a class feature for the tier upgrade should go here.
Pulsing Form should have the level it's acquired in the text of the ability.


Overall, the core class is really neat. It suffers from health attrition a lot though. I'd like to see either extra hit points per level (a la dragon sorcerer) or some way to regain hit points beyond hit dice, since you likely want to bank all of your hit dice for spellcasting.


Woundknitter's Pool of Life is a cool feature, but it doesn't actually restore any hit points, just moves them around (until Unquenchable Life kicks in at 15 that is).
Woundknitter's Death's Ward is redundant with spare the dying. It also shares its name with an existing spell.
Exalt's Exarch form requires unarmed strikes for bonus damage, but no other part of the class interacts with them (though I guess I didn't expect that so you could leave it in if you wanted).
How does Burning Blade's Mastery of Flame interact with Brilliant Technique?


Of the subclasses, Woundknitter feels the weakest right now; it feels like it should fill the main healer role, but since it draws on your own hit points (which are already harder to regain than other classes per my comments on the main class) to do so, it winds up being mostly a status-quo or sometimes an overall loss. Exalt feels similarly strong, while Burning Blade feels like it's hit the balance point just about right (though I'd like the damage of Brilliant Technique to be based on levels in Whitescourge or an ability score rather than proficiency bonus).

Corrected the ASI thing (don't know how I missed that), Primal Resilience, Spellcasting level cap (now max cast level half WS level), Mastery of Flame/Brilliant Blade (made them nonstacking), Death's Ward (will be replaced soon), Unquenchable Life (took your wording, thanks!), and Pulsing Form.

What would you say for spellcasting damage instead of necrotic? Radiant?:smalltongue:

Expedited Revitalization is fine, I feel, because (at least in my experience) no one actually takes short rests anyway, and the class already has enough going for it by way of restoration effects. But if it's grossly underpowered, then I'll change it.

Eternal Vitality fixed, but not moved. I put it there to fill a gap I had in the class progression, and they already got increased spells, cantrips, and Rebuke Undead at 10, so I don't think having a slightly weaker ability after that is too big a deal.

I like Vision of the Heartseer as it is because it has a level of uncertainty in the analysis, and as far as making it a minute, I wanted it to be more like seeing an aura than studying an enemy, so an action is more appropriate. Maybe if I change it to a bonus action?

Got it. A 17th-level ability. I'll see what I can come up with. Also, I'll adapt Woundknitter. I know it was terrible, I did it pretty quickly, so I'll take some time to figure out some good mechanics.

Exalt originally had an unarmed strike mechanic, but it was grossly under-powered, so I cut it, but liked the idea of having the unarmed strike with the Exarch Form, so I kept it.

About your 'healing commodity' complaint, I added in Pinnacle of Health, but I don't know if that tips the scales too heavily... Does it make the class overpowered or have a nice balance with the crap ton of hit points you get in return for all the self-damaging effects?

[MoleMage]

I think Pinnacle of Health works. Pre-pinnacle, a Whitescourge who used all of their hit dice on spellcasting would be expected to take about 4.5 damage per level per day from their spellcasting, or 9 if they got the DM's guide-recommended 2 short rests. They were expected to have 5+ Con Bonus health (+3 at first level) per level. Using all of their resources (and assuming max Con) they would deal a little less than half of their HP on average for the hit dice from a long rest (more conservatively, probably about a third). Now they're down to a little over a third for the long rest hit dice and a probably around a quarter conservatively, on average. If they do choose to short rest and use those hit dice for casting, that still leaves them with around half of their hit points for getting hit (with some extra hit dice left over to actually heal on short rests when needed. All of this is a rough estimate, but I think you're in a decent space health wise (leaves them some extra to work with Pool of Life for Woundknitter too).

It should probably specify that it only applies to hit dice from Whitescourge levels so that you aren't bumping d6s from Wizard/Sorcerer up.

EDIT: I would let (living) characters with resistant to necrotic damage just be better Whitescourges, but put in a clause that undead take radiant damage or just that Whitescourge abilities do not function for undead somewhere; undead Whitescourges just don't make sense to me, it's like combining matter and antimatter. Radiant is the only other damage type that makes sense but with Primal Resilience...well your choice of smiley sums it up.

[Requilac]

Emissary


Toll the Bell: I'm not a fan of proficiency modifier as a number-of-uses determiner (I missed this on my first read-through).
Defy the Dead should probably treat immunity as resistance, at least early on (it could improve later on).
Parasitic Bond is neat, and is kept from being too strong by the limitation of creatures of CR 1/4 or lower for Toll the Bell.
Walk Between Worlds could use a wording clarification, as it was hard for me to follow which plane it was referring to.


Core class looks good, all of the mid-range features I didn't mention here felt right to me. Looking forward to subclasses!

1) What is wrong with Toll the Bell having a number of uses based on proficiency bonus? It keeps the numbers manageable while having it scale with level, and it uses a number that is easy to remember. What are your objections to it?
2) I could rewrite defy the dead so that immunity is treated as resistance, but I don't know why I should. That sort of mechanic isn't really seen in 5e, even magic weapons completely bypass immunity to nonmagical weapons. I could implement it, but what would that add? Its not like defy the dead is overpowered enough to deserve any more limitations, and this class is already incredibly low on features.
3) Yes, I will need to re-write the description of walk between world's when I make the flavor text for the class and subclasses. Please be patient with me.

[pygmybatrider]

Some more feedback 8-)


Class features all seem good. Class table is exciting - grafted-on weapons? Sweet. The features look a bit bare though, outside of Fighter-level ASIs, so it looks like augmentations might take the place of spells. Cool, let's take a look!

Weaponised Form is pretty much what it says on the tin. Fists are weapons with competitive damage. I'm guessing most of the meat of the class will come from Body Augmentations. Lots of ASIs. Sufficiently Advanced Strikes comes at the right level. At a glance, it seems a little odd that neither class nor subclass gets a capstone feature.

Toxicology: Poison Injection is a cool, if odd (unexpected!) first feature. Solid damage, but only once per rest, and a commonly resisted damage type. I love the fluff of using it while shaking hands with a sleazy merchant or underhanded baron who thinks you've just signed your own death warrant. I think you could probably add more uses though - maybe Int mod/long rest. Or no damage on a save, but you can keep using it until somebody fails the save, you get max damage at least once. Toxic Dart is missing the "at 10th level" blurb, and the words "expend a use of your Poison Injection reinforce the idea that you should get to it more than once per rest. I think it's a useful upgrade for the main subclass feature though, good stuff.

Immunology: Self-repair is cool and fitting but seems a little weak considering you get it a level later than the Fighter and it's your first/defining feature. I'd be tempted to either up the uses, or add a small benefit that you gain when you use the feature, like advantage on your next attack as your systems go into overdrive, or resistance to all damage until the start of your next turn. Healthy Body sort of feels the same. It's useful, but very passive, and pretty situational. Unless 'poison' includes both the condition and the damage type.

Optics: I was going to say that Improved Darkvision was an underpowered first feature as well until I read Threat Analysis. I think this is a sweet combo for this level and like it a lot. Retinal Overlay continues the theme. It is a lot of potential expertise for a martial class - if they are great in combat, and great at common skills like Perception and Insight, it might overshadow the rogue/ranger.

Body Augmentations: I love the flavour text of Spiny Body. It is a little odd reading through these that such a SAD class gets so many ASIs. You can use Int to attack, Int for your hit points, Int for stealth, Int to decrease damage taken, Int for saving throws, and Int and Dex for your AC. I'm not sure it's overpowered, since you don't really want any weapon feats between your natural weapons and simple-weapons-only restriction, it just feels...strange. What feats do you take after you've maxed Int at 6-8? Are there still a few levels of augmentations to come at this stage? I really like the augmentations that are specific to one Field of Study, or build on earlier ones. Shattering Leap is badass. I think Acidic Blood should probably be save-or-suck, especially when paired with Programmed Alacrity vs a baddy with 2 attacks.

In regards to your specific worries:

- Augmentation power level: I think there are definitely must-picks at each level, but the fact you get to choose more than one per level makes it fine in principal. I do like the idea of replacing the bonus ASIs with ribbons - you could even keep the theme going by offering a choice of 3-4 ribbon features at those levels. Are there realistically any builds you can think of that wouldn't take Extra Attack? If not, you could probably also make Extra Attack the base level 5 feature for the class, and move the other features up or down as you see fit.

Augmentation feasibility: I think it's a fine base system to work with. There's certainly a precedent in the Warlock's Invocations, and they all tie into the same thing. I like that you can either double down on one aspect, or become a sort of generalist bio-freak with a bit of everything thrown in.

Monk-toe-stepping: I wouldn't worry about this at all. Really the only similarities are that you're both punching stuff.

Cohesion: as above, it's cool that you can sort of take the class where you want it. I really would like to see a class or subclass capstone, probably at 18th level, when you're not getting an ASI or a spell (augmentation) level, just to tie things in together. Flavour text would also help, but I think it's a pretty self explanatory chassis. No dramas here about the class standing on its own.




I'm not sure about MoleMage, but my issue with Toll the Bell scaling with proficiency is that it makes the Emissary an attractive 2 level dip, and a level 18 Wizard/2 Emissary will have the same amount of uses as a level 20 Emissary, which sort of feels wrong for such a core thematic feature.

Undead Fortitude is a really interesting mechanic in that as long as it keeps working, you keep standing up. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Really cool stuff.

Parasitic Bond is a nice defensive feature. It is a little odd it recharges on a short rest given Toll the Bell, Undead Fortitude, and spells all restore on a long rest.

Uncanny Endurance is a whole stack of abilities that on their own would probably be underpowered even for ribbons, but together seem about right despite the complexity.

Still looking forward to subclasses!




I like the changes to Cross the Threshold. Getting subclass-specific boosts is really cool.

Mystic Destiny: Mystic Attunement is a really nice first-level feature. Scaling at 6 is good. Soul Burst does seem weak, and the buffs to it at 14 feel too little too late. 1d8 damage in a cone, save-or-suck, is pretty ordinary - especially considering most horde-likely mobs have a high Dex, unless you are facing a wall of zombies. I'd either double the dice at level 6, or make it save-on-half from the start, or add Cha damage, or something. It is a little hard to balance when it's only replacing one attack; I'd almost be tempted to buff it up a fair bit and make it a separate action all on its own. You only get limited Heroics dice, so it makes sense to have them be discrete actions. I think that would help solidify this non-spell-casting subclass as the spell-casting subclass as well.

At first glance, Divine Battle, Divine Mysticism and Divine Cunning are all really powerful capstones. Level 20 is level 20 and all but they do seem to make a solid base class into a diamond one. But then I did the math on a dual wielding divine might hero vs a level 20 fighter, and they came out pretty much exactly the same so I'm not sure how to feel. I think I continually undervalue the difference being a d6 hit die class with no martial weapons or fighting style makes. The double-concentration does bother me though, if only because sorcerers and Twinned metamagic exist meaning someone could essentially be concentrating on four spells at once.

Updates to Awakened Relic are great.



Apologies if none of this makes sense, my brain feels a little mushy at the moment. Get all the sleep you can before the baby is born, they say. Between cramps and rolling over being akin to climbing Mt Everest and a couple of big Braxton Hicks false alarms, neither of us have had a decent sleep in weeks!

New class contest idea: babies. Psychic damage, concentration debuffs, disadvantage on Investigation checks to find stuff you put down 5 minutes ago.

Edit: for a real class contest idea, how about “mirror image” or “reversal” or something similar? Take an existing class and flip it on its head, mechanically or thematically. Might be a bit too similar to this one though.

[Paleomancer]

Having trouble coming up with ideas, might quickly see what you guys think. Currently, I’m thinking of a Lawyer class, some kind of Thud and Blunder Strength-based spellcaster, or

The Advocate (working name) would be a class that (a) relies on legal argument and trickery as a theme, (b) must have a client to use their abilities (and is kind of a guardian), and (c) is a typical squishy clerky person (so not normally someone one would expect to shield someone else). My only concern is it seems to be similar to normal wizards/warlocks in certain respects, especially the dependency on Intelligence and Charisma, save for interject into melee combat part (which I’m struggling to mechanically justify). Maybe Phoenix Wright as an inspiration? Some ideas below:

Unconventional combatant, so few weapons and armor, lots of skills.
The Advocate could select an ally to be the Plaintiff, and seeking to defend them, while designating their target or attacker as a Defendant, and perhaps have the rest of the party be the Jury?
Contracts as rituals?
Paths might include Public Defender (Lawful Good),
Possibly build up a “case” and defeat opponents with a summation?
Maybe minimize dependency on ability scores altogether?
Expertise on certain skills - Persuasion, Deception, etc.?


The Thud Mage is even more ill-formed - essentially it is a wizard who thinks it is a fighter. The idea was to replicate everything wrong with the Thud and Blunder genre (slicing people like jello, riding impossible distances through snow, loincloths and bikini armor...) and “explain” it as the delusions of someone with moderate magical talent. In some ways it is perhaps too close to the 3.5e Tome of Battle classes, though, and unlike the Advocate, where I can see some valid roleplay opportunities, the Thud Mage is a bit of a joke.

I’m not sure what else to try...

[SunderedWorldDM]

Having trouble coming up with ideas, might quickly see what you guys think. Currently, I’m thinking of a Lawyer class, some kind of Thud and Blunder Strength-based spellcaster, or

The Advocate (working name) would be a class that (a) relies on legal argument and trickery as a theme, (b) must have a client to use their abilities (and is kind of a guardian), and (c) is a typical squishy clerky person (so not normally someone one would expect to shield someone else). My only concern is it seems to be similar to normal wizards/warlocks in certain respects, especially the dependency on Intelligence and Charisma, save for interject into melee combat part (which I’m struggling to mechanically justify). Maybe Phoenix Wright as an inspiration? Some ideas below:

Unconventional combatant, so few weapons and armor, lots of skills.
The Advocate could select an ally to be the Plaintiff, and seeking to defend them, while designating their target or attacker as a Defendant, and perhaps have the rest of the party be the Jury?
Contracts as rituals?
Paths might include Public Defender (Lawful Good),
Possibly build up a “case” and defeat opponents with a summation?
Maybe minimize dependency on ability scores altogether?
Expertise on certain skills - Persuasion, Deception, etc.?


The Thud Mage is even more ill-formed - essentially it is a wizard who thinks it is a fighter. The idea was to replicate everything wrong with the Thud and Blunder genre (slicing people like jello, riding impossible distances through snow, loincloths and bikini armor...) and “explain” it as the delusions of someone with moderate magical talent. In some ways it is perhaps too close to the 3.5e Tome of Battle classes, though, and unlike the Advocate, where I can see some valid roleplay opportunities, the Thud Mage is a bit of a joke.

I’m not sure what else to try...

The Advocate sounds kinda cool. I'd pursue that one.

[MoleMage]

Some more feedback 8-)


I like the changes to Cross the Threshold. Getting subclass-specific boosts is really cool.

Mystic Destiny: Mystic Attunement is a really nice first-level feature. Scaling at 6 is good. Soul Burst does seem weak, and the buffs to it at 14 feel too little too late. 1d8 damage in a cone, save-or-suck, is pretty ordinary - especially considering most horde-likely mobs have a high Dex, unless you are facing a wall of zombies. I'd either double the dice at level 6, or make it save-on-half from the start, or add Cha damage, or something. It is a little hard to balance when it's only replacing one attack; I'd almost be tempted to buff it up a fair bit and make it a separate action all on its own. You only get limited Heroics dice, so it makes sense to have them be discrete actions. I think that would help solidify this non-spell-casting subclass as the spell-casting subclass as well.

At first glance, Divine Battle, Divine Mysticism and Divine Cunning are all really powerful capstones. Level 20 is level 20 and all but they do seem to make a solid base class into a diamond one. But then I did the math on a dual wielding divine might hero vs a level 20 fighter, and they came out pretty much exactly the same so I'm not sure how to feel. I think I continually undervalue the difference being a d6 hit die class with no martial weapons or fighting style makes. The double-concentration does bother me though, if only because sorcerers and Twinned metamagic exist meaning someone could essentially be concentrating on four spells at once.

Updates to Awakened Relic are great.



Apologies if none of this makes sense, my brain feels a little mushy at the moment. Get all the sleep you can before the baby is born, they say. Between cramps and rolling over being akin to climbing Mt Everest and a couple of big Braxton Hicks false alarms, neither of us have had a decent sleep in weeks!

New class contest idea: babies. Psychic damage, concentration debuffs, disadvantage on Investigation checks to find stuff you put down 5 minutes ago.

Edit: for a real class contest idea, how about “mirror image” or “reversal” or something similar? Take an existing class and flip it on its head, mechanically or thematically. Might be a bit too similar to this one though.

Did we already put "time" on the list? Babies could be a subset of time while allowing non-jokey classes alongside them.

RE: damage maths for mighty destiny, don't forget that they can get access to martial weapons through Relic Weapon. This brings their expected "per-hit" to ~34 if they use Heroic Strike or ~23 if they don't, not including benefits such as rerolling 1s and 2s on the dice or assuming any feats. Sustainably they can do ~46 average damage per round (assuming all attacks hit), compared to the fighter's ~48 (again, I didn't include fighting style or feats). Their nova goes up to ~68, while the fighter novas up to ~96, though the Hero has more resources to distribute. The increased throughout the day nova I think is approximately compensated by the fact that Heroes have to compete with other features for their nova resource while fighers generally don't.

RE: Soul Burst, I wasn't completely sold on this feature myself. I'll see about buffing it (I want some sort of throwing energy around ability here, but this one could be stronger). EDIT: Soul Burst buff idea: It now adds Charisma to damage and does half damage on save by default. It also benefits from Fated Warrior when that feature is unlocked. Improved Soul Burst now allows it to be used twice per round (replacing both attacks, or two of three if two-weapon fighting) in addition to doubling the Heroics die.

RE: double-concentration, I hadn't considered interactions with twinned spell. I guess technically you could combine the two with say...haste to affect 4 targets with two third level spell slots and 6 sorcery points plus a heroic die. What are the worst abuse cases for twinned-spell concentration effects? Dominate Person/Hold Monster? Haste isn't so bad (you could get the same effect by casting it at 6th level instead of 3rd, this is just an efficiency shift). Dominate Monster could be twinned but not recast by the sorcerer, so the normal number of targets is affected the sorcerer just gets to do other things during that time. Stoneskin is pretty nice if you can get it. Hmmm...I'll look into rewriting this feature when I go to do fluff.

[Requilac]

I will try and see if I can make the complete flavor descriptions for the Emissary of Zihnn this weekend. I have been too caught up with other things to get to it. Hopefully now I can make some real progress.


Some more feedback 8-)

I'm not sure about MoleMage, but my issue with Toll the Bell scaling with proficiency is that it makes the Emissary an attractive 2 level dip, and a level 18 Wizard/2 Emissary will have the same amount of uses as a level 20 Emissary, which sort of feels wrong for such a core thematic feature.

Undead Fortitude is a really interesting mechanic in that as long as it keeps working, you keep standing up. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Really cool stuff.

Parasitic Bond is a nice defensive feature. It is a little odd it recharges on a short rest given Toll the Bell, Undead Fortitude, and spells all restore on a long rest.

Uncanny Endurance is a whole stack of abilities that on their own would probably be underpowered even for ribbons, but together seem about right despite the complexity.

Still looking forward to subclasses!


I will say this every time I enter one of these competitions, I cannot consider multi-classing into the equation. That will complicate things far more than they should. I find that using proficiency bonus is the most elegant and streamlined solution to this, and despite lacking a precedent gives the number and scaling I want. If we are to consider multiclassing than everything becomes much more complex than it needs to be. This is why there is note about it my homebrew compendium. Even core classes don't factor multiclassing into their design, hence why the cofeelock is a thing, so how could I perfectly address the problems of multiclassing?



Apologies if none of this makes sense, my brain feels a little mushy at the moment. Get all the sleep you can before the baby is born, they say. Between cramps and rolling over being akin to climbing Mt Everest and a couple of big Braxton Hicks false alarms, neither of us have had a decent sleep in weeks!

New class contest idea: babies. Psychic damage, concentration debuffs, disadvantage on Investigation checks to find stuff you put down 5 minutes ago.

Edit: for a real class contest idea, how about “mirror image” or “reversal” or something similar? Take an existing class and flip it on its head, mechanically or thematically. Might be a bit too similar to this one though.

I am not a big fan of the mirror image idea. It doesn't seem so much based around creating a unique and new class so much as making an antithesis to another. I have my concerns that most of the class features would simply revolve around inverses of existing class features. Like an anti-bard which can use a bonus action to apply a negative bonus to an enemy's rolls ala anti-inspiration style. That competition sounds like a breeding ground for banality.

[pygmybatrider]

I will say this every time I enter one of these competitions, I cannot consider multi-classing into the equation. That will complicate things far more than they should. I find that using proficiency bonus is the most elegant and streamlined solution to this, and despite lacking a precedent gives the number and scaling I want. If we are to consider multiclassing than everything becomes much more complex than it needs to be. This is why there is note about it my homebrew compendium. Even core classes don't factor multiclassing into their design, hence why the cofeelock is a thing, so how could I perfectly address the problems of multiclassing?

I mean, you definitely can take multiclassing into consideration when you're homebrewing a class. Whether or not you do is up to you, of course. For a relevant example from this thread, I changed the mesmer's Psych Out feature from granting advantage on attack rolls to adding Int to the attack roll. They are mechanically very similar, with the new change starting out slightly worse on average and ending up slightly better, but prevents abuse with a rogue multiclass for sneak attack, or some sort of Champion crit-fishing build.

I would also say that WoTC pretty clearly considered multiclassing when designing their base classes, even though multiclassing is technically an optional rule in 5E. For example, being explicitly unable to stack Extra Attack and Unarmored Defense, rules for multiclassing spellcasters, Wild Shape working with all class features rather than simply Druid ones, Clerics and Paladins sharing Channel Divinity, off the top of my head - these have definitely been intentionally factored into class design.

For the simplest of solutions, if you aren't completely anti-anything-to-do-with-multiclassing-in-my-homebrew-classes, is to give the classes additional uses of the feature when they reach 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level in the class. Mechanically it functions exactly the same, you have maybe one extra line of text, and it stops any multiclassing trickery in its tracks.

Ultimately, of course, it's your homebrew and how you do it is totally up to you, but food for thought.


I am not a big fan of the mirror image idea. It doesn't seem so much based around creating a unique and new class so much as making an antithesis to another. I have my concerns that most of the class features would simply revolve around inverses of existing class features. Like an anti-bard which can use a bonus action to apply a negative bonus to an enemy's rolls ala anti-inspiration style. That competition sounds like a breeding ground for banality.

Yeah, I can see certain changes being very boring. Others, however, could be interesting - a Paladin-based class that uses spell slots to heal instead of deal damage. Divine Smite? Never heard of it. Here, have some Divine Light!

I did also mention thematic opposites as well as mechanical - a neo-noir detective class as an urban take on the outdoorsy ranger class, a brawny 'thug' take on the rogue etc...but oh well, different strokes for different folks... 8-)


Did we already put "time" on the list? Babies could be a subset of time while allowing non-jokey classes alongside them.

RE: damage maths for mighty destiny, don't forget that they can get access to martial weapons through Relic Weapon. This brings their expected "per-hit" to ~34 if they use Heroic Strike or ~23 if they don't, not including benefits such as rerolling 1s and 2s on the dice or assuming any feats. Sustainably they can do ~46 average damage per round (assuming all attacks hit), compared to the fighter's ~48 (again, I didn't include fighting style or feats). Their nova goes up to ~68, while the fighter novas up to ~96, though the Hero has more resources to distribute. The increased throughout the day nova I think is approximately compensated by the fact that Heroes have to compete with other features for their nova resource while fighers generally don't.

Time would be interesting! Chronomancers, grim reapers and babies in the ultimate showdown.

Yeah, it seems the more I think about it the more in-line Mighty Destiny is. It just feels odd that you can tack an extra 1d10 on to at-will melee attacks at 20th and still be within the power curve. D&D is a funny game.


RE: Soul Burst, I wasn't completely sold on this feature myself. I'll see about buffing it (I want some sort of throwing energy around ability here, but this one could be stronger). EDIT: Soul Burst buff idea: It now adds Charisma to damage and does half damage on save by default. It also benefits from Fated Warrior when that feature is unlocked. Improved Soul Burst now allows it to be used twice per round (replacing both attacks, or two of three if two-weapon fighting) in addition to doubling the Heroics die.

Sounds better already. I love the idea of a class-feature blast replacing spell-slot blasts, but it's gotta have enough oomph to make it worthwhile.


RE: double-concentration, I hadn't considered interactions with twinned spell. I guess technically you could combine the two with say...haste to affect 4 targets with two third level spell slots and 6 sorcery points plus a heroic die. What are the worst abuse cases for twinned-spell concentration effects? Dominate Person/Hold Monster? Haste isn't so bad (you could get the same effect by casting it at 6th level instead of 3rd, this is just an efficiency shift). Dominate Monster could be twinned but not recast by the sorcerer, so the normal number of targets is affected the sorcerer just gets to do other things during that time. Stoneskin is pretty nice if you can get it. Hmmm...I'll look into rewriting this feature when I go to do fluff.

I didn't realise Haste could affect additional targets if upcast - unless this has been errata'd in, it's not in my PHB printing. My love for the spell has grown even greater if so. It is definitely a niche case, but a Sorcerer could double-twin things like Haste and Greater Invisibility onto the barbarian and the ranger. Polymorph for 4 T-rexes as well. Dropping the Heroics-die to the concentration check would probably make it easier to swallow, but would also make it much weaker if you don't have a Twinning sorcerer in the party.

Damn sorcs, they ruined sorcland!

https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0333/48/1405144711539.jpg

[MoleMage]

I didn't realise Haste could affect additional targets if upcast - unless this has been errata'd in, it's not in my PHB printing. My love for the spell has grown even greater if so. It is definitely a niche case, but a Sorcerer could double-twin things like Haste and Greater Invisibility onto the barbarian and the ranger. Polymorph for 4 T-rexes as well. Dropping the Heroics-die to the concentration check would probably make it easier to swallow, but would also make it much weaker if you don't have a Twinning sorcerer in the party.

Upon review Haste can't. I don't know why I thought it could. I'll start thinking about wording changes or new ideas for the feature.

[Requilac]

I mean, you definitely can take multiclassing into consideration when you're homebrewing a class. Whether or not you do is up to you, of course. For a relevant example from this thread, I changed the mesmer's Psych Out feature from granting advantage on attack rolls to adding Int to the attack roll. They are mechanically very similar, with the new change starting out slightly worse on average and ending up slightly better, but prevents abuse with a rogue multiclass for sneak attack, or some sort of Champion crit-fishing build.

I would also say that WoTC pretty clearly considered multiclassing when designing their base classes, even though multiclassing is technically an optional rule in 5E. For example, being explicitly unable to stack Extra Attack and Unarmored Defense, rules for multiclassing spellcasters, Wild Shape working with all class features rather than simply Druid ones, Clerics and Paladins sharing Channel Divinity, off the top of my head - these have definitely been intentionally factored into class design.

For the simplest of solutions, if you aren't completely anti-anything-to-do-with-multiclassing-in-my-homebrew-classes, is to give the classes additional uses of the feature when they reach 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level in the class. Mechanically it functions exactly the same, you have maybe one extra line of text, and it stops any multiclassing trickery in its tracks.

Ultimately, of course, it's your homebrew and how you do it is totally up to you, but food for thought.


Fair enough, I will change it to simply having a number of uses that start out with two but gradually increase at the same rate as the proficiency bonus. It seems like a clunkier solution to me at first glance, but when thinking through it I don't know why that is so I am just going to shove that bias towards the subconscious recesses of my mind and feed it to my id.



Yeah, I can see certain changes being very boring. Others, however, could be interesting - a Paladin-based class that uses spell slots to heal instead of deal damage. Divine Smite? Never heard of it. Here, have some Divine Light!

I did also mention thematic opposites as well as mechanical - a neo-noir detective class as an urban take on the outdoorsy ranger class, a brawny 'thug' take on the rogue etc...but oh well, different strokes for different folks... 8-)



These still seem to be based around incredibly banal subjects. Healing can already be done with spell slots, its called Cure Wounds. An urban style ranger sounds better off as a subclass and a brawny thug would just be a fighter. I can't help but imagine that all of these classes would simply be representations of things which are already present and possible within the game with the same amount of efficiency. To me, a homebrew class should be based around a flavor concept, not a mechanical one, and I fear that this mirror world idea focuses too much on the mechanics. Instead of seeing detailed classes with interesting fluff as submitted in the other competitions, I fear that this one will revolve into making anti-versions of all the classes with flavorless class features and no real mechanical nor thematic niche to occupy that can't already be done better by official rules.

[Requilac]

Okay everybody the Emissary of Zihnn has no fully update flavor descriptions. I will now move onto the subclasses, which will be dependent on which domain of Zihnn the deathwalker draws their power from. Domains are specific sections of Zihnn which are overseen by a specific ruler. The manner in which someone dies dictates which domain they go to. This includes Chorobajed, where those who die by poison or disease go, and four others which I have yet to flesh out.

[pygmybatrider]

Thought to revise the mesmer’s capstone.

Change from re-rolling a miss with an added damage rider on hit as it seems antithetical to Paych Out’s main advantage being to make targets easier to hit.

Potentially:

A) grant a 4th reaction through another use of Lightning Reflexes
B) add a rider to Psych Out that says while it is active, they have disadvantage on all mental saving throws
C) you can use your reaction to force the target of your Psych Out feature to reroll an attack roll or saving throw
D) combination of A and C
E) combination of A and some other use of your reaction

So far, for reactions we’ve got:

1) normal opportunity attack
2) Light Step - disengage and move half speed when a baddie approaches
3) First Strike - one melee weapon attack when a baddie approaches (our Extra Attack)
4) Countercut - one melee weapon attack when a baddie within 5 feet makes an attack roll (our 3rd attack/Imp divine smite)
5) Mind Over Matter - turn any save into an Int save 1/rest

For Harlequin:

6) Laugh it Off - Rogues evasion

For Hypnotist:

6) Anodyne Trance - remove reactions from target (seems a bit weak on a second read through? Maybe reduce AC or grant advantage on the next attack against the target?)

Adding the forced disadvantage would give 7 reaction options to fill 3, potentially 4 reactions. My worry is that with only 3, the Mesmer will really struggle to keep up in the damage dealing department as 2 of those reactions should be dedicated to attacks each turn to keep the pace with other martials. That makes me lean towards offering a 4th at 20.

[Requilac]

Alright then, the Emissary of Zihnn is essentially finished on the mechanical side. I still need to make it into a google doc, edit some grammatical errors, add in some pictures (I found a decently good amateur artist that drew some of the creatures I mention), and possibly make some homebrew spells, but other than that not much else is going to be changed. My main concern is that the subclasses aren't equal in power to one another, but when you have five subclasses, it changes things. Unless anyone makes a comment otherwise, this is probably going to be the final draft.

Edit: As soon as I finish that, I will go look into reviewing the homebrew of others. I haven't really been able to do that recently and I must apologize for it.

[Requilac]

Alright then, the Emissary of Zihnn class has been fully completed. Grammar has been fixed, there is a google doc for it and I added pictures to the Homebrewery document. Later today I will try to see if I can get around to reviewing other people's homebrew classes.

[BlueHairedKat]

The Biotinker's now complete up to level 20. I'm much less certain about balance at the higher levels, and some of the augmentations are fairly... out there. Feedback appreciated.

[Requilac]

Okay Molemage, I would like to thank you for all the hard work you have done judging the Emissary. I feel as if it is my turn to repay your actions. Below I have written a detailed review on the Monomythic Hero class which I hope is helpful.

The Monomythic Hero
•I would recommend changing the title to something more descriptive then hero. That is just to general and not descriptive enough. Maybe something like “The Legend” or “The Monomythic” would be more suiting. Hero as is just doesn’t give me a good enough picture of what the class should work like. You can tell what the class would be like when you hear the word “Barbarian” or “Cleric”, but hero makes it ambiguous as to what he class is about.
•I am sure you are aware of this, but there is no flavor description for your class yet.
•Symbolic relic doesn’t seem nearly as powerful as it should be.
•For Divine Quest I would recommend allowing them to use more than just Divination. Augury, Commune and Contact Other Plane would all make sense here too.
•Cross the Threshold is admittedly interesting, but I feel like it is overpowered. If the hero knows that the situation looks like they are going to die, they could use this to virtually escape permemant death every time. Due to the guaranteed resurrection, I could easily see the Hero spamming this is an emergency button. Maybe you should put a limitation on how many times per lifetime it can be used? Or have some cost associated with the resurrection, as seen with raise dead?
•Wait, so the damage from Fated Warrior ignores Resistance and Immunity? What is the explanation for how this works on largely incorporeal things, like air elementals?
•For awakened relic the feature for Relic Focus is largely underwhelming when compared to the competition. At level 13 there would be very few occasions in which casting a 1st level spell would using a limited resource is just sad.
•How is Link an example of a “mighty hero”? Have you ever seen how many puzzles are involved in Legend of Zelda Games? He would probably be a better example of a cunning hero.
•For Beacon of courage there would be very few situations in which someone would want to waste their action ending the Frightened condition on someone. Maybe making it a bonus action should be better?
•The Cunning Destiny and Mystic Destiny archetypes lack flavor descriptions.
•The Cunning Destiny is significantly superior to all of the other archetypes, especially with Combat Ploy and the second part of Evasive Tactics.
•Soul Burst does an incredibly low amount of damage, which even at level 13 does less damage than a Dragonborn at level 1. Maybe you should up it just a little bit more.

After reading through the Hero I see some potential in it, but at its current form it is largely underpowered. It seems like you where hinging most of the class’ power off of the Heroics dice, but that is a bad idea because it is a limited resource that could go very quickly, especially at low levels. With its d6 hit die and lack of martial weapon proficiency, the Hero simply couldn’t hold up very long in extended combat even with Heroic’s dice and the subclass features.

I think you need something to boost their power and give them a niche. The only class which doesn’t get martial weapon proficiency or spellcasting is the monk and rogue, both of which get a plethora of immensely powerful features to help them. The Hero just gets heroics dice and a couple of subclass features which usually aren’t that great, with the exception of the Cunning Archetype. I think if you are truly intent on having the Hero go without spell casting and martial weapons, then go the rogue route and give them features to help with exploration and social interaction. If they aren’t great in combat, the Hero can make up for it in other regards.

There are many different exploration based features I can imagine being suitable for the hero of a monomyth. A bonus to certain checks based on who the Hero’s mentor was? An ability to quickly learn the habits or language of the natives wherever they go to reflect Crossing the First Threshold? Perhaps the Hero could, once per day, mark a specific challenge as one of their trials and gain a bonus to any check related to overcoming it? Something which protects the Hero against magical enchantments or being deceived or manipulated for when the “Woman as Temptress” scene rears its ugly head?
An ability that prevents you from being frightened or otherwise unable to move closer to an enemy, so that that the Hero my stone with the father without fear? A feature that allows for rapid movement or escape from a dangerous situation for when the Magic Flight step comes up? Some sort of conjuring abilities to get those allies necessary for the Rescue from Without step? Perhaps an ability travel between Planes of Existence to represent being a Master of Two Worlds? Like I said, there is a lot you could do.

[MoleMage]

Okay Molemage, I would like to thank you for all the hard work you have done judging the Emissary. I feel as if it is my turn to repay your actions. Below I have written a detailed review on the Monomythic Hero class which I hope is helpful.


Thanks for the feedback! Some clarification and roadmap below.

I guess I should finish the polish on the Hero, eventually, eh?


I appreciate it! I keep procrastinating on fixing the name and flavor text, but I plan to come up with ideas for both.
Symbolic Relic I can take a look at. Weapon felt like a decent mark (since it grants martial weapon access/magic weaponry), but some of the others I wasn't sure on.
I thought about putting other "get information" spells into Divine Quest, but I didn't want to make it too complicated, since the class has a lot going on and this was primarily a ribbon feature.
Cross the Threshold, as written, can be used exactly once (once you've used it you lose the feature and replace it with Returned Hero and Heroics: Sacrifice. I'll clarify the language.
Basically, your normal damage is as normal, and the extra 1d6 from Fated Warrior is damage of no type that ignores all resistance and immunity, because destiny says so. I'll add some flavor to clarify it.
Relic Focus can be used to gain Hex/Hunter's Mark, Shield of Faith, Faerie Fire, and a handful of other useful spells. I'll look at a pass to improve Focus, but Hex at the drop of a hat is pretty nice.
Link is a Mighty Hero because Mighty Heros have the best skill with swords and the features relating to courage. Really Link fits a little bit in all three categories (even Mystic in Ocarina and Link to the Past).
I feel like I had it as a bonus action at some point, and nerfed it. I will put it back at bonus.
Flavor for destinies also being procrastinated.
I'll drop Combat Ploy's secondary trigger to melee only. I feel comfortable with where Evasive Tactics is, because it's essentially a weaker version of Aura of Protection (Dex only, requires a Reaction) with a longer range. I'd rather buff Beacon of Courage and Soul Attunement.
Soul Burst is something I need to revisit. On the whole, it just isn't very satisfying as a feature. Consider it for now just a placeholder so I remember to have Heroics Feature at that level.



Power on this was hard to judge. The Monk is similarly dependent on a limited resource, but I suppose the monk's resource is available more often and they have some stuff they can do in its absence. I may increase Heroics baseline to Class Level/Short Rest and put something else at level 6. Would that be a solid all-around boost for the yet-to-be-renamed Hero? Maybe the "bread-and-butter" archetype Heroics spenders should come with tacked-on passive boosts?

I also have around 12 days left. I might try to throw together my Artisan class in place of the Hero. Probably not though. It's a busy month and updating Hero might be all the time I have.

[Requilac]

@ Molemage, I have more comments regarding the Hero


•can you explain what you mean by saying that this class is having “a lot going on?” Almost all of the features hinge off of Heroics Dice, which aren’t exactly a rocket science feature. I don’t think there is anything remiss about giving more spells to Divine Quest. It would take up an extra line at most, and probably not even that. You could just rephrase it as “You learn four spells; augury, commune, contact other plane, and divination. You may use this feature to cast one of those spells without expending a spell slot. You regain the use of this ability whenever you complete a long rest.”
•Sorry about the misunderstanding over Cross the Threshold, it’s just that there isn’t a precedent in official rules for a feature going away like that so I failed to understand what the lasts sentence meant. It is probably best to make that message more clear.
•The spells granted by the Awakened Relic for the Relic Focus are useful, but they are also received at 13th level. At level 13 most classes are pulling off 6th level spells, alongside a plethora of lower level spells. Of course there is some use to the level 13th feature for the Relic Focus, but at level 13 it should be something that grants more power. If it was at a lower level than that would be acceptable, but at T3 it will be a ribbon at best.
•Oh no, don’t get me wrong, it’s not that Evasive Tactics is overpowered for a 9th level feature, it’s that it is too powerful in comparison to the other level 9 subclass features. Empowering the other subclasses to an equal level would solve my complaints entirely.

Even if you allowed the Heroics dice to recharge at 1st level it wouldn’t be enough. The effects of the Heroics dice simply aren’t strong enough to carry the class as a whole without any passive, unlimited features. A d6 hit die and proficiency with simple weapons really lays the Hero on the chopping block as soon as it needs to be conservative with the the Hero dice. The Monk has many passive abilities to help it out when it must be careful with their ki usage, whereas the Hero has to expend all their Hero dice in rapid succession or get slaughtered with their d6 hit dice, average movement and pitiful damage output.

What I am saying is that you either need to make it so that there are enough Hero dice so that you can use them as frequently as a wizard casts spells or you need to add in some potent passive features. As is, the class has extremely low survivability without a mobile, utilitarian or offensive factor to make up for it like the other classes do. I really think you should imagine to yourself what it would look like if a level 11 Mighty Hero where to go up against a single CR 5 gladiator, and then compare how it’s performance would be to a level 11 Champion Fighter vs that same gladiator. I can guarantee you that the fighter would get that fight done quicker without expending any resources whereas the Hero, even if it used its Hero dice as much as possible, would lose the fight entirely. I would do the math, but I sadly lack the free time.

[MoleMage]

It has a lot going on in that it has a lot of special action options. Sure, almost all of them use Heroics Dice, but they still add complexity. I will add Commune to Divine Quest starting at level 11 (two levels after Clerics get it). Augury and Contact Other Plane I am leaving off as the former is outright weaker than Commune/Divination and the latter is non-divine in nature.

Cross the Threshold was the big status-quo breaker more than anything. I'll make the wording more explicit in my next update push.



Expected Damage dealt per round by Hero 11 (not using Heroic Strike): ~19 (includes the Gladiator parrying each round, assuming a Relic Weapon: Greatsword/Maul and max Charisma).
Expected Damage dealt per round by Fighter 11 (not using Action Surge): ~24 (includes the Gladiator parrying each round, assuming a Greatsword and max Strength).

Turns to kill Gladiator straight damage (CR 5 from MM): 6 for Hero, 5 for Fighter.

Heroic Strike adds 5.5 damage per use to the Hero (as it, like smite, is used after the hit is known and never wasted). Assume the hero uses it once a round on average: Turns to kill Gladiator: 5.
Action Surge doubles fighter damage one round (actually slightly more as the Gladiator can't parry, but not enough to knock off an extra turn), so 4 turns to kill gladiator.

Gladiator expected damage per round to Hero 11 (with +2 Dex and Half Plate): 18.15
Gladiator expected damage per round to Fighter 11 (with Full Plate): 16.5

Turns to kill a Hero, assuming +2 Con (he had to invest in Dex while the fighter didn't): 4 (without spending Heroics Dice on Fortitude)
Turns to kill a Fighter, assuming +3 Con: 6 (without using Second Wind)

Each round that the Hero uses Heroic Fortitude the damage it takes drops to 12.65. Fortitude every round gives the hero 5 turns of living instead of 4.
Second wind gives the fighter one extra turn of life, bringing it to 7.

Envelope math suggests you are correct in your estimation. The fighter has a full round over Mighty Hero both on offense and defense against the CR 5 Gladiator, assuming both use their combat resources aggressively The Hero matches offensively and loses defensively if the fighter uses no resources and the Hero uses all Heroics dice. Buffs for the Hero will be incoming.

My current plan is as follows: Increase the number of Heroics Dice to Level+Cha (up from half level + Cha), and make them short rest instead of long rest by default. Hero's Boon (level 6 feature that gave short rest Heroics Dice) now adds a "free" variation for core Heroics functions (Fortitude and all of the level 6 subclass ones). For example, Hero's Boon Fortitude will now give "free" temporary hit points on any turn where Heroic Fortitude is not used. This means that all of the passives are folded in as "improvements" to existing features.

Also adding Easy Integration at 3 (ignore language barriers through wording that I am still settling) and Just That Lucky at 9 (find exactly the item you need 1/long rest so long as that item is not a specific item, magical item, or mundane item worth more in GP than twice your level) as extra social interaction.

EDIT: Relic Trinket considered upgrade: Allow upcasting of selected spells by spending extra heroics dice. Alternately, no optional upcasting, but every time you cast it it's as a third level spell. Thoughts?

[Requilac]

There is less than three days left until the competition is over everybody, if any last minute changes need to be made then do them now.




My current plan is as follows: Increase the number of Heroics Dice to Level+Cha (up from half level + Cha), and make them short rest instead of long rest by default. Hero's Boon (level 6 feature that gave short rest Heroics Dice) now adds a "free" variation for core Heroics functions (Fortitude and all of the level 6 subclass ones). For example, Hero's Boon Fortitude will now give "free" temporary hit points on any turn where Heroic Fortitude is not used. This means that all of the passives are folded in as "improvements" to existing features.

Also adding Easy Integration at 3 (ignore language barriers through wording that I am still settling) and Just That Lucky at 9 (find exactly the item you need 1/long rest so long as that item is not a specific item, magical item, or mundane item worth more in GP than twice your level) as extra social interaction.

EDIT: Relic Trinket considered upgrade: Allow upcasting of selected spells by spending extra heroics dice. Alternately, no optional upcasting, but every time you cast it it's as a third level spell. Thoughts?

Oh, I am sorry Molemage, I hadn't realized that you updated the Hero. You added it in as an edit to a post I already read, so it isn't until now that I came around to reading it.

I think the changes you have made definetely gave the Hero a needed power boost. The additional Heroics dice and short rest recharge are probably the biggest change, the former of which covers many of my problems. Now the Hero can use the Heroics dice enough to rely on it as a core feature. The Hero is definitely utilizing some unorthodox features so it is difficult to imagine how balanced it would be in actual play, but I suppose that only play-testing shall prove that. It might turn out all right, but I wouldn't trust that outcome.

I think that the Awakened Relic Trinket still seems like it isn't sufficiently powerful, but considering how many times that spell could be cast makes me reconsider. Regardless, I would add in more than one known spell, possibly up to charisma modifier maybe? This could just me being biased at this point, its hard to tell really.

One last question though; why does the passive part of Heroic Fortitude always grant just 2 THP regardless of level? I am not saying that this is necessarily unbalanced, but most features in 5E will have quantities that are effected by an ability score modifier, proficiency bonus, or class level; very few are that static. Why did you choose the static number 2 for Heroic Fortitude instead of making it grow with levels or be based on a bonus?

[MoleMage]

[B]One last question though; why does the passive part of Heroic Fortitude always grant just 2 THP regardless of level? I am not saying that this is necessarily unbalanced, but most features in 5E will have quantities that are effected by an ability score modifier, proficiency bonus, or class level; very few are that static. Why did you choose the static number 2 for Heroic Fortitude instead of making it grow with levels or be based on a bonus?

I originally had it scaling based on your dice size improvements, but took it out so that it wouldn't compete with the active portion. Then later I added the cumulative with active portion clause so I will put scaling back in tomorrow.

[SunderedWorldDM]

I'll do a last-minute go over of each class and say any final comments I may have. In the meantime, I would appreciate if I got some final reviews on the Whitescourge, as it's pretty good, but I'm worried that it's not as good as it could be.

Biotinker: I have a hard time getting over the fact that the only ability this class has is the enhancements. Every 5e class, even the Wizard, has class features outside of the core mechanic, but Biotinker doesn't have that. I suppose one could use that argument for the 'expectations' bit, but I have a hard time getting over the lack of variance.

Emissary: The only qualm I have is how much its steeped in your world's lore, particularly the subclasses go overboard on this (making you slog through two paragraphs to see why the abilities make sense). Maybe reflavoring them so the names of the subclasses aren't the domains, rather, they're an adjective to describe them, i.e. 'the Toxic' or 'the Squamous'? It would make this class a lot easier to understand and use in settings that... aren't yours.

Mentalist: Looks pretty much good. Flavor fits, class is streamlined, simple, and balanced, and everything more or less makes sense for a cunning psionic fighter. Strong contender for my vote :smallsmile:

Deadeye: Pretty solid. A bit complicated, but to be expected. Just falls a bit shy on not meeting expectation.

Destined: I can't access GMbinder on this device, so sadly I can't give much feedback. From what I've heard, it seems you have a solid idea, varied and interesting mechanics, and Hero Dice to tie it all together. Just again, what really exceeds expectation? All D&D PCs are mighty heroes. This one just has its job in the name.

I'm not good at mechanical review, just flavor and overall look, so that's what I got. Anyone got any qualms on the Whitescourge?

[pygmybatrider]

Thanks for bumping this thread, SWDM. I'd almost forgotten about this little contest! Didn't realise it was almost over.

Appreciate your comments on the mesmer - I do think your earlier critique about the subclasses feeling too distant/distinct from the base class was warranted, and I did intend to add a third that would feel more like your average dude with psychic powers and hopefully tie the others together - but didn't get around to it. I did update the capstone ability to give you the option of using your reaction to impose disadvantage on the target of your Psych Out's attack roll/ability check/saving throw. I ended up not giving them a 4th reaction as I think choosing which 3 of your 7 reactions you're going to use per round is enough book-keeping/decision making for a player, and I think at-will disadvantage is a pretty juicy ability, even if it's only one specific target per round @ level 20.

I'll give your Whitescourge my best shot at reviewing, and if anyone else would like me to take another look at their class before the deadline, just let me know.


Still love the fluff at the start. Simple and evocative - gives you a clear picture of what to expect from the class.

Does your Center give you benefits at level 1? Its position in the class table would suggest so, but it doesn't look like you actually gain any features from your Center until 3rd level. (I later saw that you must have changed around the levels you gain features - the text of the Center feature should be updated to reflect that :) )

I still think Rebuke Unlife should scale at cantrip levels - eg 2d6 base, 3d6 at 5, 4d6 at 11, 5d6 at 17. I'm also not sure if this is important enough a feature to be in the class table - given that how often you use it will be entirely dependent on how many undead are in your campaign. If you want it to stay in the table, I can't help but feel there should be a way to use this feature against non-undead - I know it might be hard to work out the fluff, but I would like to see a line or two at the end saying something like: "You can also choose to release your stored hatred for the undead as a tangible wave of unrelenting force. As long as you have not used your Rebuke Unlife feature since your last long rest, you can use an action to cause all creatures you choose within 15 feet of you to make a Strength save against your Snippets of Power DC. On a fail, a creature takes 2d6 force damage and is knocked prone. On a success, a creature takes half as much damage and is not knocked prone. The damage increases as you gain levels in the class, according to the Whitescourge table. Once you use Rebuke Unlife in this way, you can't use your Rebuke Unlife feature again until you finish a long rest. "

You then have a class feature that is usable throughout your career, and gives the Whitescourge some much needed power at lower levels. Primal Resilience will be great when it comes up, but won't come up often, and the cantrips from Snippets of Power will be roughly equal to just hitting things with a pair of daggers until 5th level.

My issue with Spellcasting keying off Constitution is that since Constitution is already a secondary stat for everybody, you lower a spellcaster's needed attributes from 3 to 2. Every other caster needs their mental stat for spells, Con for HP, and Str or Dex for armour. Woundknitter and Exalt Whitescourges just need Con and Dex - Burning Blades also have the potential to stay with Dex using rapiers or that OP elven glaive, or take up Strength for heavy weapons. It's not a dealbreaker for everyone, as shown in this thread, but it does just feel out of place to me. Personally, after reading the fluff, either Strength or Charisma would fit better for me as a spellcasting stat. Charisma is boring but works for the same reason as a sorcerer using Cha - it's an innate, personal power that you're channeling. Strength keeps your casting stat out-of-the-box, and can use nearly all the same fluff as Con - resolve, physical might, perseverence etc. I still think it makes sense to cast from hit dice with Strength as a spellcasting mod too. Obviously it's ultimately up to you, but this is why I and others have stayed away from Con as a spellcasting mod in other homebrews.

I re-read our earlier conversation about max spell level, and I'm still a little confused. Your example of being a 13th-level Whitescourge casting Cure Wounds on his buddy allows for a 7th level spell as long as you expend 7 hit die. But a 13th-level Whitescourge has a Max Spell Level in the class table of 4th level. What does the max spell level in the table refer to, if not to the max level at which a Whitescourge can cast a spell? The levels that you get new Max Spell Levels are also out of whack for a third-caster.

I do still love the casting from hit dice mechanic, and think it works well on paper, just looking for clarification there. It's probably also worth noting that at 20th level, you essentially get a 9th level spell slot back every short rest. Expedited Revitalisation makes sense both thematically and mechanically - great design and execution.

Pinnacle of Health is a big buff that comes at the same time as Extra Attack for Burning Blade, essentially turning you into a d14 hit dice class past level 1. I can see this is an attempt to balance out the damage you're taking from spellcasting, but without running the numbers (i suck at them!)/playtesting it's still a bit hard to see the power level. As it is, I'd probably keep this feature the same but move it to a level that it can stand on its own, without also gaining other benefits at the same level.

Eternal Vitality feels more like a ribbon with a little extra than a tier-upgrade - although I guess Whitescourges get their upgrade at 12, when they gain access to 6th level spells, rather than 11, in which case it makes a little more sense.

Vision of the Heartseer is a cool feature, but should probably be a bonus action, and give you more useful information than just how many HP it has left. Maybe learn its vulnerabilities and resistances/immunities?

Unquenchable Life is badass. I'd swap this with Eternal Vitality as your 3rd-tier upgrade feature. As a rule I don't like features that scale off proficiency, but I think I already mentioned that and you decided against changing it.

Pulsing Form is solid mechanically, but should probably read: "Beginning at 17th level, your body can’t contain the radiance within, releasing it into the surrounding area. Whenever a hostile creature ends its turn within 10 feet of you, you can use a reaction to force the creature to make a Dexterity saving throw against your Snippets of Power DC. On a fail, it takes 2d8 radiant damage, or 4d8 if it is undead or from the Negative Energy plane."

Spellmaster is oddly worded, because as a class you don't have spell slots to expend. If it works how I think it works (giving you free 1st-level slots forever), I think it probably needs to be toned back. Similar to the wizard's Spell Mastery, I'd only give the Whitescourge one first-level spell for free - but instead of also gaining a 2nd level spell, they can choose which 1st level one they can cast at-will when they prepare spells for the day (lot of good Cleric options even at high levels - Bless, Guiding Bolt [great w a rogue], Sanctuary, Shield of Faith).

Restoration is a good capstone for this class. Nice work.

For all your subclasses, I'd suggest finding some way to combine or trim their 5th and 7th level features into one. Given that Burning Blade should probably get Extra Attack at the same time as martials, I'd suggest moving their features to 5th and putting Pinnacle of Health at 7th - only 1 level after you get access to 3rd level spells, so still in time to cast away freely with Spirit Guardians and Mass Healing Word.

Woundknitter: Pool of Life and Benevolence are both solid - although Pool of Life is really two features rolled into one. If you were going to move Pinnacle of Health to 7th, I'd just scrap Our Souls as One altogether. I do like the idea of somebody else choosing to steal your health when they need it from a gameplay point of view, I don't really see how it works fluff-wise, and you can already save people as a BA on your own turn. Master of the Aura would be more appealing if Vision of the Heartseer was buffed in usefulness/power.

Exalt: Woundknitter gives a big buff to healing at level 1. Exalt gives a big buff to...detecting magic and scaring zzombies. It probably needs a bit more oomph there. If this is the spellcasty subclass, it might even be a thought to give them a limited subclass spells list ala the paladin/druid/warlock - full of things like burning hands and fireball. If not, Imperial Fire could probably come down here, alongside a more passive boost. I do like that you get to choose charmed or frightened, for social and combat situations - that's a nice touch. Exarch Form is ridiculously powerful when you compare it to the Woundknitter's 14th level feature - so I'd either drop its power or significantly boost Master of the Aura. Does the turn that you use to activate the feature count against the number of rounds you can stay in the form? I'd probably just make it last for a minute like many other classes' transformation-type features.

Burning Blade: Brilliant Technique is a nice idea, but again scales of proficiency. a 1 Whitescourge/19 anything else gets just as much value from this as a level 20 Whitescourge. Is the effect indefinite? Most other classes get magical-weapon-features around level 6. I can see the fluff reasoning behind calling Extra Attack Radiant Speed, but for consistency's sake/ease of reading, it should probably just be Extra Attack. This subclass is a bit trickier as it doesn't easily fit into my Pinnacle of Health-at-level-7 pattern. If you added the extra damage scaling into the base Brilliant Technique feature, that would go a long way. Although, as it stands, at level 7 a Whitescourge with 16 Strength, PAM and a glaive will be doing 2d10+1d4+3d6+18 (average of 42 damage) - vs a raging barbarian's 2d10+1d4+15 (average of 28.5). I'd definitely tone down the bonus damage you're giving them on their weapon attacks. Mastery of Flame is an even more attractive feature than Exarch Form as it is always-on. Although strictly worse damage-wise than a rapier that has been Brilliant Techniqued, that rider is massive. End of their next turn means you're giving your allies advantage vs them and the creature gets disadvantage on all its attacks as well. And you can do this every round. While dual-wielding another rapier that has been Brilliant Techniqued, and hitting away with advantage and massive damage over and over. Or wielding a shield. This subclass probably needs the most work out of the three to become balanced IMO.

Overall, I think this class has come a long way since the last time I read it, and it looks like you've got a solid grasp on where you want it to be thematically and mechanically. It definitely feels unique enough to stand on its own as a class, and the hit dice mechanic is really interesting and does seem (to my admittedly shoddy eye) to be reasonably well balanced. A few screws to tighten in regards to wording - I understand there's probably a few mechanical points we will still disagree on - and another look over the Burning Blade and it will be all sweet for me.

[MoleMage]

Destined: I can't access GMbinder on this device, so sadly I can't give much feedback. From what I've heard, it seems you have a solid idea, varied and interesting mechanics, and Hero Dice to tie it all together. Just again, what really exceeds expectation? All D&D PCs are mighty heroes. This one just has its job in the name.


I'll make this last edit and then put up a PDF of the class too. It's not-within-expectations are more on the mechanical side (it has a d6 hit dice, a Charisma primary stat, and simple weapon proficiency but its role is melee combatant), rather than the thematic side. Though it is someone that is good at things because fate said so rather than the standard D&D assumption of people who learned exceptional skills through practice for a weaker thematic unexpected nature.

[SunderedWorldDM]

Thanks for bumping this thread, SWDM. I'd almost forgotten about this little contest! Didn't realise it was almost over.

Appreciate your comments on the mesmer - I do think your earlier critique about the subclasses feeling too distant/distinct from the base class was warranted, and I did intend to add a third that would feel more like your average dude with psychic powers and hopefully tie the others together - but didn't get around to it. I did update the capstone ability to give you the option of using your reaction to impose disadvantage on the target of your Psych Out's attack roll/ability check/saving throw. I ended up not giving them a 4th reaction as I think choosing which 3 of your 7 reactions you're going to use per round is enough book-keeping/decision making for a player, and I think at-will disadvantage is a pretty juicy ability, even if it's only one specific target per round @ level 20.

I'll give your Whitescourge my best shot at reviewing, and if anyone else would like me to take another look at their class before the deadline, just let me know.


Still love the fluff at the start. Simple and evocative - gives you a clear picture of what to expect from the class.

Does your Center give you benefits at level 1? Its position in the class table would suggest so, but it doesn't look like you actually gain any features from your Center until 3rd level. (I later saw that you must have changed around the levels you gain features - the text of the Center feature should be updated to reflect that :) )

I still think Rebuke Unlife should scale at cantrip levels - eg 2d6 base, 3d6 at 5, 4d6 at 11, 5d6 at 17. I'm also not sure if this is important enough a feature to be in the class table - given that how often you use it will be entirely dependent on how many undead are in your campaign. If you want it to stay in the table, I can't help but feel there should be a way to use this feature against non-undead - I know it might be hard to work out the fluff, but I would like to see a line or two at the end saying something like: "You can also choose to release your stored hatred for the undead as a tangible wave of unrelenting force. As long as you have not used your Rebuke Unlife feature since your last long rest, you can use an action to cause all creatures you choose within 15 feet of you to make a Strength save against your Snippets of Power DC. On a fail, a creature takes 2d6 force damage and is knocked prone. On a success, a creature takes half as much damage and is not knocked prone. The damage increases as you gain levels in the class, according to the Whitescourge table. Once you use Rebuke Unlife in this way, you can't use your Rebuke Unlife feature again until you finish a long rest. "

You then have a class feature that is usable throughout your career, and gives the Whitescourge some much needed power at lower levels. Primal Resilience will be great when it comes up, but won't come up often, and the cantrips from Snippets of Power will be roughly equal to just hitting things with a pair of daggers until 5th level.

My issue with Spellcasting keying off Constitution is that since Constitution is already a secondary stat for everybody, you lower a spellcaster's needed attributes from 3 to 2. Every other caster needs their mental stat for spells, Con for HP, and Str or Dex for armour. Woundknitter and Exalt Whitescourges just need Con and Dex - Burning Blades also have the potential to stay with Dex using rapiers or that OP elven glaive, or take up Strength for heavy weapons. It's not a dealbreaker for everyone, as shown in this thread, but it does just feel out of place to me. Personally, after reading the fluff, either Strength or Charisma would fit better for me as a spellcasting stat. Charisma is boring but works for the same reason as a sorcerer using Cha - it's an innate, personal power that you're channeling. Strength keeps your casting stat out-of-the-box, and can use nearly all the same fluff as Con - resolve, physical might, perseverance etc. I still think it makes sense to cast from hit dice with Strength as a spellcasting mod too. Obviously it's ultimately up to you, but this is why I and others have stayed away from Con as a spellcasting mod in other homebrews.

I re-read our earlier conversation about max spell level, and I'm still a little confused. Your example of being a 13th-level Whitescourge casting Cure Wounds on his buddy allows for a 7th level spell as long as you expend 7 hit die. But a 13th-level Whitescourge has a Max Spell Level in the class table of 4th level. What does the max spell level in the table refer to, if not to the max level at which a Whitescourge can cast a spell? The levels that you get new Max Spell Levels are also out of whack for a third-caster.

I do still love the casting from hit dice mechanic, and think it works well on paper, just looking for clarification there. It's probably also worth noting that at 20th level, you essentially get a 9th level spell slot back every short rest. Expedited Revitalization makes sense both thematically and mechanically - great design and execution.

Pinnacle of Health is a big buff that comes at the same time as Extra Attack for Burning Blade, essentially turning you into a d14 hit dice class past level 1. I can see this is an attempt to balance out the damage you're taking from spellcasting, but without running the numbers (i suck at them!)/playtesting it's still a bit hard to see the power level. As it is, I'd probably keep this feature the same but move it to a level that it can stand on its own, without also gaining other benefits at the same level.

Eternal Vitality feels more like a ribbon with a little extra than a tier-upgrade - although I guess Whitescourges get their upgrade at 12, when they gain access to 6th level spells, rather than 11, in which case it makes a little more sense.

Vision of the Heartseer is a cool feature, but should probably be a bonus action, and give you more useful information than just how many HP it has left. Maybe learn its vulnerabilities and resistances/immunities?

Unquenchable Life is badass. I'd swap this with Eternal Vitality as your 3rd-tier upgrade feature. As a rule I don't like features that scale off proficiency, but I think I already mentioned that and you decided against changing it.

Pulsing Form is solid mechanically, but should probably read: "Beginning at 17th level, your body can’t contain the radiance within, releasing it into the surrounding area. Whenever a hostile creature ends its turn within 10 feet of you, you can use a reaction to force the creature to make a Dexterity saving throw against your Snippets of Power DC. On a fail, it takes 2d8 radiant damage, or 4d8 if it is undead or from the Negative Energy plane."

Spellmaster is oddly worded, because as a class you don't have spell slots to expend. If it works how I think it works (giving you free 1st-level slots forever), I think it probably needs to be toned back. Similar to the wizard's Spell Mastery, I'd only give the Whitescourge one first-level spell for free - but instead of also gaining a 2nd level spell, they can choose which 1st level one they can cast at-will when they prepare spells for the day (lot of good Cleric options even at high levels - Bless, Guiding Bolt [great w a rogue], Sanctuary, Shield of Faith).

Restoration is a good capstone for this class. Nice work.

For all your subclasses, I'd suggest finding some way to combine or trim their 5th and 7th level features into one. Given that Burning Blade should probably get Extra Attack at the same time as martials, I'd suggest moving their features to 5th and putting Pinnacle of Health at 7th - only 1 level after you get access to 3rd level spells, so still in time to cast away freely with Spirit Guardians and Mass Healing Word.

Woundknitter: Pool of Life and Benevolence are both solid - although Pool of Life is really two features rolled into one. If you were going to move Pinnacle of Health to 7th, I'd just scrap Our Souls as One altogether. I do like the idea of somebody else choosing to steal your health when they need it from a gameplay point of view, I don't really see how it works fluff-wise, and you can already save people as a BA on your own turn. Master of the Aura would be more appealing if Vision of the Heartseer was buffed in usefulness/power.

Exalt: Woundknitter gives a big buff to healing at level 1. Exalt gives a big buff to...detecting magic and scaring zombies. It probably needs a bit more oomph there. If this is the spellcasty subclass, it might even be a thought to give them a limited subclass spells list ala the paladin/druid/warlock - full of things like burning hands and fireball. If not, Imperial Fire could probably come down here, alongside a more passive boost. I do like that you get to choose charmed or frightened, for social and combat situations - that's a nice touch. Exarch Form is ridiculously powerful when you compare it to the Woundknitter's 14th level feature - so I'd either drop its power or significantly boost Master of the Aura. Does the turn that you use to activate the feature count against the number of rounds you can stay in the form? I'd probably just make it last for a minute like many other classes' transformation-type features.

Burning Blade: Brilliant Technique is a nice idea, but again scales of proficiency. a 1 Whitescourge/19 anything else gets just as much value from this as a level 20 Whitescourge. Is the effect indefinite? Most other classes get magical-weapon-features around level 6. I can see the fluff reasoning behind calling Extra Attack Radiant Speed, but for consistency's sake/ease of reading, it should probably just be Extra Attack. This subclass is a bit trickier as it doesn't easily fit into my Pinnacle of Health-at-level-7 pattern. If you added the extra damage scaling into the base Brilliant Technique feature, that would go a long way. Although, as it stands, at level 7 a Whitescourge with 16 Strength, PAM and a glaive will be doing 2d10+1d4+3d6+18 (average of 42 damage) - vs a raging barbarian's 2d10+1d4+15 (average of 28.5). I'd definitely tone down the bonus damage you're giving them on their weapon attacks. Mastery of Flame is an even more attractive feature than Exarch Form as it is always-on. Although strictly worse damage-wise than a rapier that has been Brilliant Techniqued, that rider is massive. End of their next turn means you're giving your allies advantage vs them and the creature gets disadvantage on all its attacks as well. And you can do this every round. While dual-wielding another rapier that has been Brilliant Techniqued, and hitting away with advantage and massive damage over and over. Or wielding a shield. This subclass probably needs the most work out of the three to become balanced IMO.

Overall, I think this class has come a long way since the last time I read it, and it looks like you've got a solid grasp on where you want it to be thematically and mechanically. It definitely feels unique enough to stand on its own as a class, and the hit dice mechanic is really interesting and does seem (to my admittedly shoddy eye) to be reasonably well balanced. A few screws to tighten in regards to wording - I understand there's probably a few mechanical points we will still disagree on - and another look over the Burning Blade and it will be all sweet for me.

Thanks for the in-depth review! Just what I need.

Center, Radiant Speed, Vision of the Heartseer, Pulsing Form, Spellmaster, and Subclasses fixed/altered/corrected, maybe not entirely the ways you suggested, but it gets them closer to balanced, clear and workable.

I'll take an in-depth look at your subclass comments in a bit, but I've tried altering Woundknitter and Exalt to eliminate the 7th level abilities and move them all to 5th. To make Exalt appealing, I've put Imperial Fire into the Visible Might ability, so it gains the charmed/frightened at 3rd level. Still need to take a bigger look at Burning Blade, though, as I see how it could quickly get out of hand.

EDIT: Did a subclass redux: eliminated the extra damage on Burning Blade, gave Woundknitter a pretty powerful capstone, and nixed/reduced some features on Exhaled Form. Would you mind looking through and seeing if I've at least addressed the problems you brought up, if not entirely fixing them?

The following has been added to Rebuke Unlife:

However, you can also manipulate this power to harm those who have a beating heart in their body, not simply those with death behind their eyes. Once before you take a long rest, you can use Rebuke Unlife on any creatures within range, not just undead or residents of the Negative Energy Plane.
I decided to keep the die leveling as-is because it lines up with the spell prep max, and as you improve in spellcasting power, the hostility and potency of your internal power increases. If I change it now, I feel it might throw off that balance.

To answer your 'max spell' question, here's a line from the Spellcasting ability.

The maximum level of spell you can prepare is shown on the table above.
So you can cast it at any level you wish, but the spells you have prepared must be of X level and under. Does that make sense?

Thanks a lot! I really needed this. Everyone else, hit me with your best shot!

[pygmybatrider]

Ahh, yep, that makes total sense! Must have missed that line about max spell level being for prepared spells.

I also think I worked out why the spell progression was giving me headaches - you get slower spell slot progression than a third caster, despite getting spellcasting at the same level as a halfcaster - and I was trying to square that circle for a while before realising that you are neither a half or a third caster, as the casting from HD mechanic lets you upcast spells known before either of those could. If that was your thought process, that justifies the unique progression enough for me, and whether or not it is accurate/balanced would probably have to be gauged through play testing or by someone more well versed in math than me.

Sorry I was so late in giving feedback, but it looks like you are already polishing the finished product! Good stuff :)

Edit: I will take a closer look at the changes this afternoon, particularly for subclasses. I can say right now that I like your Rebuke Unlife change much better than the one I suggested - simple, straightforward and useful!

[pygmybatrider]

Alright SWDM, on a second read-through, here's my thoughts on the changes:

I'm not sure if it's because I'm reading between edits, or because my brain is fried from new dad duties, but the first few levels look really different to me. I could have sworn the Whitescourge got Spellcasting at 2, and the Center features came at 1st (but the feature text said 3rd - that was the cause of my confusion in the original post), and Primal Resilience came at 2nd. Sorry if my comments have caused any confusion on your end!

I think the early progression is a little messy at the moment, gaining 2 relatively weak features at 1st level, one situationally strong one at 2nd, and then 3 features at 3rd.

Given the really specific nature of some of those features, I think they should probably be reshuffled to make sure the Whitescourge isn't really suffering for those first two levels. Here's my recommended order:

I actually liked the Center features coming at 1st, as they really made the subclass feel like part of your origin story. I read them as if they worked that way on the first review, and didn't see any major balance issues other than dipping 1 level of Burning Blade for free proficiency to weapon damage forever.

I'd put Center features and Snippets of Power at 1st. The healy subclass can heal, the fighty subclass can fight, the flamey subclass can flame, all from level 1, with the added benefit of a ranged attack cantrip or Guidance or Thaumaturgy. Otherwise, the Whitescourge has no martial weapons or spells until 3rd level, having to deal with simple weapon or cantrip die and one use of non-undead Rebuke Unlife per rest.

At 2nd, I'd give them Rebuke Unlife and Spellcasting. I think that if you give them spellcasting at 3rd level, and they prepare spells at 1/3rd of Whitescourge level, it'd be really odd to not give them 1/3rd caster progression - ie 2nd @ 7th level, 3rd @ 13th level, 4th @ 19th. The way it is now is sort of a mix between half and third caster, and I liked that as working in combination with the HD casting to make a really unique spellcasting class.

At 3rd, they gain Expedited Revitalisation, which gives them a bunch more 'mana' to cast spells, and then progression carries on as written from there.

Spellmaster should probably specify "that you have prepared", or "from the cleric spell list" if you want to give them an extra prepared spell slot, as at the moment you could justifiably choose Shield or Absorb Elements from the wizard list.

I can't remember if the bit about not dying from old age was in Restoration the last time I read it, but I like it - it fits the fluff of certain temples hiding their warriors away for times when they need them. I'm picturing Vader meditation chambers and the like - very cool.

Subclasses:

Woundknitter: I like the new 14th level feature. In fact, I like it so much I would probably scrap the Master of the Aura one altogether. Maybe I am overlooking something, but I'm struggling to find situations where Vision of the Heartseer would be worth using over casting a spell - the only place I can see it proving useful is sizing somebody up out-of-combat to see whether you can fight them or you need to run the hell away.

Exalt: I like the Charm-or-Frighten ability coming early, feels stronger and fluffier and gives the subclass some substance in comparison to the other two, who already had their niche carved out early.

Burning Blade: Brilliant Technique only lasting for a minute is nice, as it means you will at least have to use one bonus action per combat to initiate it. It's still unlimited as written though - compare the Hexblade's Curse, which is considered one of the better 1st level abilities in the game, which gives proficiency (grr) to hit for 1 min, once per rest. The curse also crits on a 19-20, but is limited to 1 target only, whereas Brilliant Technique affects anybody who gets in your way.

On further thought, I'm also a little puzzled by the dead levels at 6 and 10. I know you get new spell levels here, but you also do at 17, where you receive Pulsing Form, which is one of your stronger features. EKs/ATs also gain class features at 7/13/19 (not sure if ASI @ 19 counts...) when they learn new spell levels - although I know you're technically not exactly a 3rd caster.

One way I can see to change that is to shift Apex Primal Resilience to 15, then Unquenchable Life to 11 (I really like this idea - most classes get a real power boost at 11), Eternal Vitality to 10, move your level 5 class features to level 6, and make a new class feature @ 5 that essentially gives the choice of Extra Attack, or adding your spellcasting modifier (I guess Con in this case) to your cantrip damage. Something like:

Blazing Soul
Beginning at 5th level, the intensity of your inner radiance manifests itself in one of two ways. You can choose one of the following benefits to gain:

Extra Attack: You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn.
Empowered Cantrip: You can add your Constitution modifier to the damage done by your Whitescourge cantrips.

I feel like I'm adding complexity with each comment I make, rather than simplifying, so do feel free to ignore any and all of this - it's just what's coming into my admittedly muddled head as I read! I might be inventing problems when there aren't any, and I definitely won't pretend to have a better grasp on the intended design of your class than you do. It's looking pretty good at this stage, and I think I'm thinking the same way I do about my own homebrews when they are at that stage - lots of nitpicking, lots of what ifs, lots of how abouts!

[SunderedWorldDM]

Alright SWDM, on a second read-through, here's my thoughts on the changes:

I'm not sure if it's because I'm reading between edits, or because my brain is fried from new dad duties, but the first few levels look really different to me. I could have sworn the Whitescourge got Spellcasting at 2, and the Center features came at 1st (but the feature text said 3rd - that was the cause of my confusion in the original post), and Primal Resilience came at 2nd. Sorry if my comments have caused any confusion on your end!

I think the early progression is a little messy at the moment, gaining 2 relatively weak features at 1st level, one situationally strong one at 2nd, and then 3 features at 3rd.

Given the really specific nature of some of those features, I think they should probably be reshuffled to make sure the Whitescourge isn't really suffering for those first two levels. Here's my recommended order:

I actually liked the Center features coming at 1st, as they really made the subclass feel like part of your origin story. I read them as if they worked that way on the first review, and didn't see any major balance issues other than dipping 1 level of Burning Blade for free proficiency to weapon damage forever.

I'd put Center features and Snippets of Power at 1st. The healy subclass can heal, the fighty subclass can fight, the flamey subclass can flame, all from level 1, with the added benefit of a ranged attack cantrip or Guidance or Thaumaturgy. Otherwise, the Whitescourge has no martial weapons or spells until 3rd level, having to deal with simple weapon or cantrip die and one use of non-undead Rebuke Unlife per rest.

At 2nd, I'd give them Rebuke Unlife and Spellcasting. I think that if you give them spellcasting at 3rd level, and they prepare spells at 1/3rd of Whitescourge level, it'd be really odd to not give them 1/3rd caster progression - ie 2nd @ 7th level, 3rd @ 13th level, 4th @ 19th. The way it is now is sort of a mix between half and third caster, and I liked that as working in combination with the HD casting to make a really unique spellcasting class.

At 3rd, they gain Expedited Revitalisation, which gives them a bunch more 'mana' to cast spells, and then progression carries on as written from there.

Spellmaster should probably specify "that you have prepared", or "from the cleric spell list" if you want to give them an extra prepared spell slot, as at the moment you could justifiably choose Shield or Absorb Elements from the wizard list.

I can't remember if the bit about not dying from old age was in Restoration the last time I read it, but I like it - it fits the fluff of certain temples hiding their warriors away for times when they need them. I'm picturing Vader meditation chambers and the like - very cool.

Subclasses:

Woundknitter: I like the new 14th level feature. In fact, I like it so much I would probably scrap the Master of the Aura one altogether. Maybe I am overlooking something, but I'm struggling to find situations where Vision of the Heartseer would be worth using over casting a spell - the only place I can see it proving useful is sizing somebody up out-of-combat to see whether you can fight them or you need to run the hell away.

Exalt: I like the Charm-or-Frighten ability coming early, feels stronger and fluffier and gives the subclass some substance in comparison to the other two, who already had their niche carved out early.

Burning Blade: Brilliant Technique only lasting for a minute is nice, as it means you will at least have to use one bonus action per combat to initiate it. It's still unlimited as written though - compare the Hexblade's Curse, which is considered one of the better 1st level abilities in the game, which gives proficiency (grr) to hit for 1 min, once per rest. The curse also crits on a 19-20, but is limited to 1 target only, whereas Brilliant Technique affects anybody who gets in your way.

On further thought, I'm also a little puzzled by the dead levels at 6 and 10. I know you get new spell levels here, but you also do at 17, where you receive Pulsing Form, which is one of your stronger features. EKs/ATs also gain class features at 7/13/19 (not sure if ASI @ 19 counts...) when they learn new spell levels - although I know you're technically not exactly a 3rd caster.

One way I can see to change that is to shift Apex Primal Resilience to 15, then Unquenchable Life to 11 (I really like this idea - most classes get a real power boost at 11), Eternal Vitality to 10, move your level 5 class features to level 6, and make a new class feature @ 5 that essentially gives the choice of Extra Attack, or adding your spellcasting modifier (I guess Con in this case) to your cantrip damage. Something like:

Blazing Soul
Beginning at 5th level, the intensity of your inner radiance manifests itself in one of two ways. You can choose one of the following benefits to gain:

Extra Attack: You can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the attack action on your turn.
Empowered Cantrip: You can add your Constitution modifier to the damage done by your Whitescourge cantrips.

I feel like I'm adding complexity with each comment I make, rather than simplifying, so do feel free to ignore any and all of this - it's just what's coming into my admittedly muddled head as I read! I might be inventing problems when there aren't any, and I definitely won't pretend to have a better grasp on the intended design of your class than you do. It's looking pretty good at this stage, and I think I'm thinking the same way I do about my own homebrews when they are at that stage - lots of nitpicking, lots of what ifs, lots of how abouts!

Yeah, I changed the first few levels quite a bit. I like your changes, so I'll reorder a bit to get those in place.

I feel like reordering the 'gap levels' at this point would be a bit too much of a hassle, so I'll leave it be.

Will reword Spellmaster. Thanks!

I see the problem with Brilliant Blade. I just need to find some way of having a bit of an extra 'oomf' of radiant damage on normal hits without it getting overpowered. Maybe the max level of spell you can prepare? So you would have to take Whitescourge, and it wouldn't get out of hand. But that feels too weak... maybe add to both attack and damage? So on a dip, you can essentially summon a +1 magic weapon. No, that's too much. I see the problem now!

To be honest, I'm ready to simply leave it as-is and give a good reward to anyone who takes a dip. Proficiency bonus boost in damage gets less significant the higher level you are, so it's only disbalancing at the lower levels.

Thanks a lot for your advice! I tried looking critically through the Mesmer, but your eye is better than mine, so I saw nothing that immediately popped out to me as odd or a red flag. Does anyone else have any comments on the Whitescourge?

[BlueHairedKat]

Biotinker: I have a hard time getting over the fact that the only ability this class has is the enhancements. Every 5e class, even the Wizard, has class features outside of the core mechanic, but Biotinker doesn't have that. I suppose one could use that argument for the 'expectations' bit, but I have a hard time getting over the lack of variance.

Strictly speaking, the Biotinker has more features than the Wizard (Weaponised Form, Extra Attack, Sufficiently Advanced Strikes, Timeless Body, True Genius vs. Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, Signature Spell). Do these features feel less like features, because they're quite passive? Or for some other reason?

Taking another look at the Whitescourge, Spellcasting is confusing - am I right in thinking that you can upcast spells to level/2 (like a full caster), but only prepare spells like a third-caster? That's a bit odd, and also, owwwwwww.

Rebuke Unlife is interesting - it's very thematic, but I'd be leery of an ability that's just 1/long rest in games without undead, but up against a necromancer or Strahd or what-have-you becomes spammable without limits.

I'm not sure about Expedited Revitalisation. It's so so thematic, but also daaang, that's a lot of health. Multiclassing probably breaks it, but I think it's fine otherwise?

Pinnacle of Health: DAAAANG. I might just never cast spells. This is more health than a barbarian, and more recovery to boot.

Subclasses look pretty fine, if not super exciting.

Overall: daaang. I don't know - maybe the power level works out, maybe it doesn't. As a habitual gish, though, I'm pretty sure I'd just never cast spells, and soak aaalll of the damage.

[SunderedWorldDM]

Strictly speaking, the Biotinker has more features than the Wizard (Weaponised Form, Extra Attack, Sufficiently Advanced Strikes, Timeless Body, True Genius vs. Arcane Recovery, Spell Mastery, Signature Spell). Do these features feel less like features, because they're quite passive? Or for some other reason?
Well, add Wizard Schools into the mix and you get three extra highly flavored abilities. The passivity is one part, definitely, but the other is that even when you do have abilities for your subclasses, they're written out as Augmentations, not as standalone abilities. Just the void of things that aren't Augmentations or specifically written to... augment... Augmentations is what I'm talking about.


Taking another look at the Whitescourge, Spellcasting is confusing - am I right in thinking that you can upcast spells to level/2 (like a full caster), but only prepare spells like a third-caster? That's a bit odd, and also, owwwwwww.
You can upcast spells as far as you'd like (there's just a cap on what level you can prepare to, which I think is throwing people off), but preparation as a third caster, yup.


Rebuke Unlife is interesting - it's very thematic, but I'd be leery of an ability that's just 1/long rest in games without undead, but up against a necromancer or Strahd or what-have-you becomes spammable without limits.
I think it's okay as-is.


I'm not sure about Expedited Revitalisation. It's so so thematic, but also daaang, that's a lot of health. Multiclassing probably breaks it, but I think it's fine otherwise?
Yeah, I'm afraid of that kind of disbalance too, but I've been told it's okay. Just gotta cross my fingers multiclassing isn't an issue! And besides, what would I change it to without drastically limiting the spellcasting potential of the Whitescourge?


Pinnacle of Health: DAAAANG. I might just never cast spells. This is more health than a barbarian, and more recovery to boot.
Yeah, but you're going to be casting a number of spells, and those will drain you. I added this so it's near impossible to commit suicide by your own spell. There's also other abilities sprinkled throughout that drain your HP pool, so I though this would be good to pad it. I mean, you're just getting 3 extra hit points per level. At 20th, you'd have 260 HP (in theory) while a Barbarian has 240 (in theory). That's not a drastic difference, although you're probably not going to be as front-line, so you'll be a bit harder to kill. So I think it should be fine- it could be abused, but that's not the spirit of the class.


Subclasses look pretty fine, if not super exciting.
They'll do. :smalltongue:


Overall: daaang. I don't know - maybe the power level works out, maybe it doesn't. As a habitual gish, though, I'm pretty sure I'd just never cast spells, and soak aaalll of the damage.
Yeah, that's fair. It takes a specific type of player, willing to get into the give-and-take mechanics to let this class shine. I feel it could easily be abused, particularly by a Burning Blade jut doing melee with their huge HP pool, but that's not the intention of the class.

Thank you very much! I appreciate your feedback. Anyone else wanna take a swing?

[Requilac]

Sorry everybody, I was more than a little late to the announcement, but the voting period has begun and no more changes may be made to any classes. The voting period will end on December 2nd in which we will tally up the votes and saw what class won. Please visit the voting thread in this link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?574666-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IV-Voting-Thread) to voice your opinion.

[Requilac]

It’s the last day for everyone to vote, so if anyone wishes to vote but hasn’t done so yet they had best do it soon.

[Requilac]

Only three hours left until voting is over, if you are going to vote then its now or never.

[MoleMage]

So what's the protocol in case of a tie?

[SunderedWorldDM]

So what's the protocol in case of a tie?

Maybe the person who got the most net votes?

[Requilac]

The Voting period is over and the results of this competition are as shown below.

Voting Points
The Destined: IIII III (8) 2 1st place vote, 1 2nd place vote
The Mesmer: IIII III (8) 2 1st palce vote, 1 2nd place vote
The Whitescourge: IIII I (6)
The Deathwalker: IIII (4)
The Deadeye: II (2)
The Biotinker: II (2)

So it appears that The Destined and Mesmer are tied in 1st place, the Whitescourge scored in 2nd place, and the Deathwalker scored in 3rd. Congratulations to Molemage and Pygmybatrider. I would normally try to settle the tie, but seeing as how both reached their equaling score of 8 upon the final vote, had equal net amounts of votes, and had an equal amount of 1st place votes it doesn't seem like there is an easy way to break it. If any of you have any ideas on what to do here please tell me about them.

_____________________

Before we move onto next competition, something needs to be spoken about. Namely the fact that we had a tied vote fore which theme to go with next. Pygmybatrider and Sundered World DM voted for the theme of time, while me Molemage voted for the theme of monsters. Ivelius abstained from voting. But Molemage and SunderedWorldDM both showed interest in playing a Winter themed competition without actually voting for it. But would you all prefer to go with the idea of a Winter theme for next competition, even though no one technically voted on it, or would you prefer that we hash out the tie between Time and Monsters instead? How I would personally handle breaking the tie here is by choosing which one got the most votes first, which in this case is time, but I am open to suggestions on alternatives if the latter option becomes wanted.

[SunderedWorldDM]

The Voting period is over and the results of this competition are as shown below.

Voting Points
The Destined: IIII III (8) 2 1st place vote, 1 2nd place vote
The Mesmer: IIII III (8) 2 1st palce vote, 1 2nd place vote
The Whitescourge: IIII I (6)
The Deathwalker: IIII (4)
The Deadeye: II (2)
The Biotinker: II (2)

So it appears that The Destined and Mesmer are tied in 1st place, the Whitescourge scored in 2nd place, and the Deathwalker scored in 3rd. Congratulations to Molemage and Pygmybatrider. I would normally try to settle the tie, but seeing as how both reached their equaling score of 8 upon the final vote, had equal net amounts of votes, and had an equal amount of 1st place votes it doesn't seem like there is an easy way to break it. If any of you have any ideas on what to do here please tell me about them.

_____________________

Before we move onto next competition, something needs to be spoken about. Namely the fact that we had a tied vote fore which theme to go with next. Pygmybatrider and Sundered World DM voted for the theme of time, while me Molemage voted for the theme of monsters. Ivelius abstained from voting. But Molemage and SunderedWorldDM both showed interest in playing a Winter themed competition without actually voting for it. But would you all prefer to go with the idea of a Winter theme for next competition, even though no one technically voted on it, or would you prefer that we hash out the tie between Time and Monsters instead? How I would personally handle breaking the tie here is by choosing which one got the most votes first, which in this case is time, but I am open to suggestions on alternatives if the latter option becomes wanted.

First, thank you so much to everyone who voted for me! This was my first class contest, and to make the leaderboard was an achievement I will flaunt in my signature for a while to come. I can't wait to improve the Whitescourge until it's actually playable!

Second, if I could, I'd like to change my vote to Winter, and I'd like to stay away from Monster as I feel there's a lot of existing content around that angle, but various interpretations of Chronomancy would be a lot of room to homebrew in. But, of course, I am but a drop in an ocean...

[MoleMage]

The Voting period is over and the results of this competition are as shown below.

Voting Points
The Destined: IIII III (8) 2 1st place vote, 1 2nd place vote
The Mesmer: IIII III (8) 2 1st palce vote, 1 2nd place vote
The Whitescourge: IIII I (6)
The Deathwalker: IIII (4)
The Deadeye: II (2)
The Biotinker: II (2)

So it appears that The Destined and Mesmer are tied in 1st place, the Whitescourge scored in 2nd place, and the Deathwalker scored in 3rd. Congratulations to Molemage and Pygmybatrider. I would normally try to settle the tie, but seeing as how both reached their equaling score of 8 upon the final vote, had equal net amounts of votes, and had an equal amount of 1st place votes it doesn't seem like there is an easy way to break it. If any of you have any ideas on what to do here please tell me about them.

_____________________

Before we move onto next competition, something needs to be spoken about. Namely the fact that we had a tied vote fore which theme to go with next. Pygmybatrider and Sundered World DM voted for the theme of time, while me Molemage voted for the theme of monsters. Ivelius abstained from voting. But Molemage and SunderedWorldDM both showed interest in playing a Winter themed competition without actually voting for it. But would you all prefer to go with the idea of a Winter theme for next competition, even though no one technically voted on it, or would you prefer that we hash out the tie between Time and Monsters instead? How I would personally handle breaking the tie here is by choosing which one got the most votes first, which in this case is time, but I am open to suggestions on alternatives if the latter option becomes wanted.


Wow, thanks everyone! I was pretty pleased with the Destined, so it feels good to know that you were too.

I'm okay with letting the tie stand. The only good way I could think of to resolve it further than vote distribution is another round of voting, and that will bog us down too much.

For the next theme, I am also okay with doing Winter this time and looping back around to Time/Monsters next time.

[pygmybatrider]

Congrats MoleMage, I’m very proud to share the tie with you and the Destined. Especially given I’d somehow flubbed the math in my head and thought you and SWDM were on top!

Thanks everyone who gave their 2c during the process - especially you Requilac as you’ve given me some motivation to go back and take a second look at the power level and maybe adding a few more active features.

I’m also happy to get festive with Winter for the next contest! Tis the season :)

[Requilac]

First, thank you so much to everyone who voted for me! This was my first class contest, and to make the leaderboard was an achievement I will flaunt in my signature for a while to come. I can't wait to improve the Whitescourge until it's actually playable!

Second, if I could, I'd like to change my vote to Winter, and I'd like to stay away from Monster as I feel there's a lot of existing content around that angle, but various interpretations of Chronomancy would be a lot of room to homebrew in. But, of course, I am but a drop in an ocean...

Oddly enough, one of the main reasons I didn't want to go with the Time theme is because I felt it was too narrow. I would worry that there would be too many Chronomancer classes with virtually the same theme and purpose, but just with different individual mechanics that make them up. When I first heard the theme of time, very few classes came to mind except for the archetypal time traveler. There is some room for creativity for sure, but I just didn't feel like there is enough.


Wow, thanks everyone! I was pretty pleased with the Destined, so it feels good to know that you were too.

I'm okay with letting the tie stand. The only good way I could think of to resolve it further than vote distribution is another round of voting, and that will bog us down too much.

For the next theme, I am also okay with doing Winter this time and looping back around to Time/Monsters next time.


Congrats MoleMage, I’m very proud to share the tie with you and the Destined. Especially given I’d somehow flubbed the math in my head and thought you and SWDM were on top!

Thanks everyone who gave their 2c during the process - especially you Requilac as you’ve given me some motivation to go back and take a second look at the power level and maybe adding a few more active features.

I’m also happy to get festive with Winter for the next contest! Tis the season :)

It is nice to here that my review was helpful, I was worried it would come across as too harsh. Don't get me wrong, it has a lot of potential, but its lack of flavor description and active features made it undesirable to me. A couple of additional features or feature rewrites should do the trick.

__________________

Alright everyone, sometime within the next week, hopefully sooner rather than later I will hold the winter themed competition.

[Requilac]

Okay everybody I just recently created the 5th D&D 5e Base Class Contest: Time to Chill out. You can find a link to the submissions thread below. I hope to see you all there again in our new Winter themed competition.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576131-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-V-Time-to-Chill-Out&p=23567807#post23567807