Help with Charging Build

[Master O'Laughs]

I saw a thread mentioning the leap attack and shock trooper feats and I was thinking of making a charger build but sticking with 2H weapons. This is what I have so far:

Race: Half-Orc
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Class: Barbarian 2/Fighter 8
ACF: Spirit Lion Totem, Half-Orc Racial Substitution, Whirling Frenzy

Attributes:
Strength 18+2(race)+2(Level)=22
Dexterity 12
Constitution 16
Intelligence 10-2(race)=8
Wisdom 14
Charisma 8-2(Race)=6

Feats:
Lvl 1 - Power Attack
Lvl 3 - Extra Rage
F1 - Cleave
F2 - Improved Bull Rush
Lvl 6 - Leap Attack
F4 - Great Cleave
F6 - Shock Trooper
Lvl 9 - Headlong Rush
F8 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked Chain)

BAB: 10/5

Full attack: 16/16/11 Charge: 22/22/17
PA Damage: 4d4+18+40

A couple questions:

1) Is the expanded reach from spiked chain worth the feat or am I better off going with the traditional Greatsword or Falchion?

2) Is combat Brute worth picking up at some point or am I likely to kill things flat out that I ma continually be charging?

3) I plan on getting Valorous on my weapon for another increase in damage on the charge, any other enhancements worth it?

4) Any feats I should look to get as I keep leveling?

5) Any prestige class worth getting or stick with fighter?

The party I will be in seems like mid to low OP. I saw some crazy builds using dungeon crasher fighter and the Prestige class making you part goliath to add additional damage but not sure if it is worth it/over kill where I show up the party too much.

I also plan on avoiding Frenzied Berzerker... I don't want to be the cause of the TPK.

EDIT: Title to make more clear what thread was about

[Rebel7284]

While Knockback feat from Races of Stone is fun for battlefield control and bowling enemies down with other enemies with Shock Trooper, it can indeed be overkill in a low OP game.

Water Orc in Unearthed Arcana is potentially a better race to use. I often see it combined with Dragonborn (Wings) to remove the light sensitivity in addition to getting a flight speed (and keeping the swim speed too!). Charging in mid-air helps avoid a number of obstacles. In addition, if a dive attack counts as a charge for your other feats, you can get another damage multiplier out of it.

A cleric dip, while hurting your BAB, can give you up to three feats and, if you chose wrath domain for Rhino Rush, another damage multiplier.

Power Lunge is a rarely referenced way to add more damage to a charge. (un-updated 3.0)

[Master O'Laughs]

While Knockback feat from Races of Stone is fun for battlefield control and bowling enemies down with other enemies with Shock Trooper, it can indeed be overkill in a low OP game.

Water Orc in Unearthed Arcana is potentially a better race to use. I often see it combined with Dragonborn (Wings) to remove the light sensitivity in addition to getting a flight speed (and keeping the swim speed too!). Charging in mid-air helps avoid a number of obstacles. In addition, if a dive attack counts as a charge for your other feats, you can get another damage multiplier out of it.

A cleric dip, while hurting your BAB, can give you up to three feats and, if you chose wrath domain for Rhino Rush, another damage multiplier.

Power Lunge is a rarely referenced way to add more damage to a charge. (un-updated 3.0)

I was thinking of Water Orc, but not sure if DM will go for the Dragonborn route (I will ask though), I know the other way to remove sunlight sensitivity is a 1 level dip in Orc Paragon which I know is not available. It sounds like picking wings is the best option, should I aim to wear medium armor and pick up the feat that allows flight in medium armor? Or should I go all the way and spend 2 feats to fly in heavy armor (though that will be feat expensive)?

I am trying to avoid spell casting for thematic reasons.

Would flight stack with the Leap Attack feat? or should I expect to pick 1 over the other?

[RaiKirah]

A couple notes:

If you're playing this from level one swap Power Attack and Extra Rage to be more consistent for the first two levels.

Cleave and Great Cleave are cool and flavorful, but generally don't get you all that much.

Spiked Chain is absolutely worth it, particularly if you pick up Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip and Knock-Down.

You mentioned the rest of your party is low to mid OP. With this build you'll be doing fairly absurd amount of damage and may not fit into a low OP group.

[Master O'Laughs]

A couple notes:

If you're playing this from level one swap Power Attack and Extra Rage to be more consistent for the first two levels.

Cleave and Great Cleave are cool and flavorful, but generally don't get you all that much.

Spiked Chain is absolutely worth it, particularly if you pick up Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip and Knock-Down.

You mentioned the rest of your party is low to mid OP. With this build you'll be doing fairly absurd amount of damage and may not fit into a low OP group.

Starting at level 10. There is a druid... so I guess they are strong. A sorcerer who has picked more thematic spells rather than straight power choices. There is another melee character who is in the process of becoming a vampire.

The druid and sorcerer do stuff I simply will not be able to, while I will probably out-shine the other melee, he has stated he plays more for the role-play character interactions than combat (which has been showcased by the fact he still does not know what his character can do in combat through 8 levels of play).

[Darrin]

1) Is the expanded reach from spiked chain worth the feat or am I better off going with the traditional Greatsword or Falchion?


The duom, last printed in Dragon Compendium, is a martial two-handed reach weapon that can be used to attack adjacent opponents. It looks like there's a -2 penalty for this, but it's actually a penalty for attacking a second creature. If you are only attacking one creature, there's no penalty.



2) Is combat Brute worth picking up at some point or am I likely to kill things flat out that I ma continually be charging?


Not worth it. Improved Sunder destroys loot and wastes an attack action that could be spent making your opponent dead. Charge/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper with a Valorous weapon should be more than enough damage.



3) I plan on getting Valorous on my weapon for another increase in damage on the charge, any other enhancements worth it?


For your main weapon, consider getting Collision (+2 enhancement, MIC). This adds a static modifier instead of extra damage dice, so it gets multiplied by Valorous/etc.

Smoking property (+1 enhancement, Lords of Darkness) on some armor spikes is nice. If you can get ahold of some Strongarm Bracers, maybe the Sizing property (+5000 GP, MIC).



4) Any feats I should look to get as I keep leveling?


As Rebel7284 mentioned, I'm fond of Power Lunge. However, it was reprinted in Ghostwalk, which did get a 3.5 update, so it is official 3.5 material.



5) Any prestige class worth getting or stick with fighter?


I'm fond of Hellreaver (Fiendish Codex II), which adds some chunks of versatility to a melee build. Knight of the Middle Circle (Masters of the Wild) is a great meatbag-friendly PrC. Soldier of Light (Deities & Demigods) is a nice little "Paladin in a Can" for a 1-level dip. Dragon Lord (Dragon Magic) might be interesting for a short dip.

[Master O'Laughs]

The duom, last printed in Dragon Compendium, is a martial two-handed reach weapon that can be used to attack adjacent opponents. It looks like there's a -2 penalty for this, but it's actually a penalty for attacking a second creature. If you are only attacking one creature, there's no penalty.

Not worth it. Improved Sunder destroys loot and wastes an attack action that could be spent making your opponent dead. Charge/Leap Attack/Shock Trooper with a Valorous weapon should be more than enough damage.

For your main weapon, consider getting Collision (+2 enhancement, MIC). This adds a static modifier instead of extra damage dice, so it gets multiplied by Valorous/etc.

Smoking property (+1 enhancement, Lords of Darkness) on some armor spikes is nice. If you can get ahold of some Strongarm Bracers, maybe the Sizing property (+5000 GP, MIC).

As Rebel7284 mentioned, I'm fond of Power Lunge. However, it was reprinted in Ghostwalk, which did get a 3.5 update, so it is official 3.5 material.

I'm fond of Hellreaver (Fiendish Codex II), which adds some chunks of versatility to a melee build. Knight of the Middle Circle (Masters of the Wild) is a great meatbag-friendly PrC. Soldier of Light (Deities & Demigods) is a nice little "Paladin in a Can" for a 1-level dip. Dragon Lord (Dragon Magic) might be interesting for a short dip.

For the smoking armor spikes, I just need +1 armor with armor spikes and I can enchant them right?

What type of armor (Medium/Heavy) would be best if attempting to gain a fly speed through dragonborn?

Hellreaver seems all kinds of yes. It boosts will and gives me some cool abilities. I'm loving it.

Power lunge, if using a 2 handed weapon, would it make my strength bonus x3 or x2.5?

[Master O'Laughs]

Another question, would becoming a dragonborn prohibit me taking the orc racial substitution level for barbarian at lvl 2?

[Darrin]

For the smoking armor spikes, I just need +1 armor with armor spikes and I can enchant them right?


Yep. 2350 GP out the door, although netcutter spikes (200 GP, Races of the Wild) offer a smidge more versatility.



What type of armor (Medium/Heavy) would be best if attempting to gain a fly speed through dragonborn?


Darkleaf masterwork breastplate is 2600 GP (non-magical), which is cheaper than a mithral breastplate at 4200 GP.

However, by RAW, wearing medium or heavy armor doesn't prevent you from flying as a dragonborn. The text mentions a medium or heavy load, but that's different than wearing medium/heavy armor (even though medium/heavy armor may restrict your movement similar to carrying a medium/heavy load). The rules on whether or not you can fly in armor are not clear, so you may need to discuss that with the DM.



Power lunge, if using a 2 handed weapon, would it make my strength bonus x3 or x2.5?

As per the text: "A successful attack roll during a charge allows you to add double your normal Strength modifier to the attack's damage, regardless of whether you're using one- or two-handed weapons."

So your Str bonus on damage would be x2 (normally it's x1.5).

However, you might be able to talk your DM into x2.5 or x3 if he/she is open to getting all fiddly with the math.


Another question, would becoming a dragonborn prohibit me taking the orc racial substitution level for barbarian at lvl 2?

Dragonborn doesn't change your race, so you would still be eligible for racial substitution levels.

You can take Wolf Totem at Barbarian 2 to get Improved Trip (you can stack it with Spirit Lion Totem). And the Skilled City-Dweller ACF from the Cityscape Web Enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) can be used with both Barbarian and Fighter to treat Tumble as a class skill.

[Master O'Laughs]

I would definitely prefer tumble over ride.

And I double checked and you are definitely right about no mention of armor for flying. I guess I was confused because of the feats later in the book. I guess I would be wanting to rock Full-plate then if my dex mod is +3 or lower. Is it worth it to make it mithral to help make it lighter?

I guess the bonus damage is not really that great from orc-racial substitution level of barb. I would be better off with Improved trip from wolf totem (though having spirit lion and wolf totem seems weird). That way if I pick up combat reflexes I can trip people before they reach me :D.

Am I best off with boots of springing and striding to help with movement speed and jump checks (since reduced movement from armor)? What belt would be best? Not sure if the DM will allow a belt of battle, if not allowed just go with +4 Strength?

Also, would 2 levels of feat rogue be a good idea to help with all the feats I need? I would lose 1 BAB but it would also help boost reflex saves (minorly important)

[Darrin]

And I double checked and you are definitely right about no mention of armor for flying. I guess I was confused because of the feats later in the book.


It can be very confusing, because the text of whatever gives you flight can sometimes mention medium/heavy loads or medium/heavy armor, and sometimes it doesn't. The SRD/MM mentions that you can only fly at the given speed if you're lightly encumbered, but doesn't actually say that flight is impossible or just at a reduced speed. However, the SRD/MM description of movement modes explicitly calls out that wearing heavier armor isn't always the same as being encumbered: "Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load."

The Reinforced/Heavyweight Wings feats are likely the result of the designers being confused about the flight rules. Whoever wrote those feats most likely assumed that medium/heavy armor always prevents you from flying. And while some methods of obtaining flight don't allow you to fly in medium/heavy armor... some methods do.



I guess I would be wanting to rock Full-plate then if my dex mod is +3 or lower. Is it worth it to make it mithral to help make it lighter?


Darkleaf (A&EG, Eberron Campaign Setting) is cheaper, although the Max Dex bonus is only +1 instead of +2. With a Dex bonus of +3, then full plate + mithral is probably your best possible combo of Armor/Dex Bonus. If money is no object, then the Half-Weight property (+3 enhancement, FR Underdark) can also make full plate count as light armor.

Keep in mind that heavy armor will still reduce your speed, and if you don't move your minimum forward speed (half for Average maneuverability), you'll stall.



I guess the bonus damage is not really that great from orc-racial substitution level of barb. I would be better off with Improved trip from wolf totem (though having spirit lion and wolf totem seems weird).


It's not weird if your culture is not monotheistic. Look up some totem poles. How many animals do you see? Or if you're still not comfortable with that, write into your backstory that your parents came from two different tribes: Spirit Lion was your father's tribe, and Wolf was your mother's tribe.



Am I best off with boots of springing and striding to help with movement speed and jump checks (since reduced movement from armor)?


Boots of the Unending Journey (4000 GP, MIC) are a bit cheaper. There's also the Crystal of Alacrity (3500 GP, MIC) for +5' morale bonus to speed, but it only works with medium/heavy armor.



What belt would be best?


Healing Belt (750 GP, MIC) is considered mandatory for adventurers. I'm also fond of the Novice Stone Dragon Belt (3000 GP, Tome of Battle).



Not sure if the DM will allow a belt of battle, if not allowed just go with +4 Strength?


As per the MIC rules, +4 Strength can be added to any magic belt for the same price as a Belt of Giant Strength.



Also, would 2 levels of feat rogue be a good idea to help with all the feats I need? I would lose 1 BAB but it would also help boost reflex saves (minorly important)

Which feats? Barb 2/Fighter X gets quite a few feats. Ranger dip could also get you some feats. Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc, for example, gets TWF/Rapid Shot at Ranger 2, any bonus feat at Ranger 3, and another bonus feat at Ranger 4 (via Champion of the Wild ACF, Complete Champion). You should be qualified for Horizon Walker at that point.

[Saintheart]

A small suggestion, but something that grants you Freedom of Movement might be worth considering. A flight speed will get you over obstacles or difficult terrain perhaps, but stuff like a tanglefoot bag -- or any spell that imposes the entangle condition -- can shut down your charging.

[Rebel7284]

Would flight stack with the Leap Attack feat? or should I expect to pick 1 over the other?

There is nothing in the rules that prevents you from jumping while flying. However, some DMs may not allow this for reasons of realism.

If your DM doesn't allow for a jump mid-air, you should be able to combine the two by jumping into the air and then diving down. Requires a pretty high jump check, but extra multipliers are nice.

If you take two levels of Warblade, you can use Leaping Dragon stance to pretty much auto-succeed. I suggest you give up Great Cleave and still turn everyone around you into a fine red mist while gaining a BUNCH of utility from 3rd level maneuvers. Specifically, check out
- White Raven Tactics: action economy
- Iron Heart Surge: poorly worded, but should be able to stop a number of conditions
- Battle Leader's Charge: No longer provoke AOOs while charging. Check if this overrides Headlong Rush/Power Lunge
- Wall of Blades: sometimes your AC will be very bad due to shock trooper. This allows you to have good AC as an immediate action.
- Sudden Leap: swift action movement is good to have!
- Moment of Perfect Mind: if you chose to invest in Concentration, you can have the best Will save in the party!
- Action Before Thought: as above but reflex save.

You'll be able to chose 4 of those.

[Master O'Laughs]

To answer the feats I would "like" to take:

B2/F6/Hellreaver2

ECL1 - L1 - Extra Rage
ECL2 - B2 - Improved Trip (Wolf Totem)
ECL3 - L3 - Power Attack
ECL3 - F1 - Cleave
ECL4 - F2 - Improved Bull Rush
ECL6 - L6 - Leap Attack
ECL6 - F4 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)
ECL8 - F6 - Shock Trooper
ECL9 - L9 - Headlong Rush

From there, I noticed if I use a slashing weapon then it is worth it to go Weapon Focus->Weapon Specialization->Melee Weapon Mastery->Slashing Flurry

Driving Attack looks a lot less impressive, but I am getting another x2 if I get a diving attack (requires piercing).

would this make the halberd worth using? It doesn't have reach but has both slashing and piercing?

Additional Feats:
Combat reflexes
Greater Cleave
Reckless Rage
Extra Rage (if 3 uses is not enough for the day)
Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Weapon Mastery
Improved Initiative

If anything seems worthless or unnecessary let me know. Also any suggestions that may be better.

I think I plan to Have a lvl 20 build of B2/F6/H10/Paladin of Freedom2 (or more fighter levels)

With the introduction of Hellreaver, I plan to somehow manage a Charisma modifier of at least +2.

[Darrin]

ECL3 - L3 - Power Attack
ECL3 - F1 - Cleave


I would consider taking Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) at L3 and Power Attack at F1. Cleave is a fun feat to have, but it's not *essential*.



ECL6 - F4 - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain)


Are the Fighter variants from Dragon #310 available? If so, then Exoticist Fighter can save you a feat here.



From there, I noticed if I use a slashing weapon then it is worth it to go Weapon Focus->Weapon Specialization->Melee Weapon Mastery->Slashing Flurry


I'm not sure I'd say Slashing Flurry is worth it. If you want another attack with a spiked chain, then dip into Exotic Weapon Master for Flurry of strikes.



would this make the halberd worth using? It doesn't have reach but has both slashing and piercing?


Slashing *or* piercing. You don't get both at once, you have to choose one. The advantage of using a halberd would probably be picking up the Spinning Halberd weapon style (Complete Warrior), which gives you an extra bludgeoning attack at BAB -5. This requires TWF, but oddly enough, does not actually count as an offhand attack.



Greater Cleave


Not worth it. The odds that you will be surrounded by enough cannon fodder to make this useful are very, very, very low. Keep in mind what level you would be getting this feat, and then just imagine the most ideal situation to use it... is it even conceivable that at that point in your career, would the DM ever actually surround you with enough kobolds/goblins to make it actually work?



Reckless Rage


Meh.



Extra Rage (if 3 uses is not enough for the day)
Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization/Weapon Mastery
Improved Initiative


Somewhat more useful.



With the introduction of Hellreaver, I plan to somehow manage a Charisma modifier of at least +2.

Desert half-orc doesn't take a Cha penalty, but also loses the Str bonus. If your DM will allow the Magic-Blooded template (Dragon #306), then you can have a magic-blooded desert half-orc with +2 Con, +2 Cha, -2 Int, -2 Wis.

[mabriss lethe]

You could always use monk to create a Poor Man's Shadowpouncer if other builds are too over powered for the table. (Monk 7+ Using the Lion Tribe Warrior and Mantis Leap, then using your preferred method of choice to make a swift jump check, travel devotion is my favorite.) There a few other components that streamline it, but I can't recall the specifics. The gist of it is that you can make 3 jump checks per round, as a swift, move, and standard action, and at the end of each one you get a full attack with light weapons.

[Master O'Laughs]

I can always ask about Dragon Magazine material but I am sure my DM will be skeptical about allowing it.

As far as the shadow puncher thing, Even if a straight charger might do more damage, I wonder if lots of full round attacks (in the same turn) may be met with more raised eyebrows.

[Master O'Laughs]

Also, with re-reading the dive attack from dragonborn and leap attack feat, along with the rules for jumping, how do you combine flight with a jump?

Should I be looking at Leap of the Heavens (PHB2) to remove the penalty for not getting 20 ft of movement?

Or are you running 20 ft, jumping 10 and then flying up 10 to crash down for the attack?

Is combing jumping and flying cheese?

[Rebel7284]

Also, with re-reading the dive attack from dragonborn and leap attack feat, along with the rules for jumping, how do you combine flight with a jump?

Should I be looking at Leap of the Heavens (PHB2) to remove the penalty for not getting 20 ft of movement?

Or are you running 20 ft, jumping 10 and then flying up 10 to crash down for the attack?

Is combing jumping and flying cheese?

I think taking levels in an initiator class is better than wasting a feat on Leap to the Heavens, but it's certainly an option and frees you up to take other stances.

If your movement meets all the criteria for leap attack and a dive, I don't see any issues with applying both types of bonuses. You would indeed have to jump up into the air, and then use your wings during the descend part of the jump to also be diving.

Ask your DM if that's cheese at your table. Certainly, adding another damage multiplier is very powerful, but it requires a very particular type of movement to work.

If this combination is too powerful, your DM can always say that once you start using your wings, it's no longer a jump, or something like that.

[Master O'Laughs]

Quick question on Knock-down and improved trip, If I trip someone through Knock-down, do I get the free attack from improved trip?

Question about charging, when I charge with a reach weapon, can I only attack enemies directly in front of me (2 squares) or can I attack any square in front of me (8 total)?

[Darrin]

Quick question on Knock-down and improved trip, If I trip someone through Knock-down, do I get the free attack from improved trip?


That's been a point of contention. The errata for Sword & Fist said no:



Use of this feat cannot be combined with Improved Trip to generate an extra attack, and successful use of this feat does not grant an extra attack through the Cleave or Great Cleave feats.
Insert may into “you may make a trip attack as a free action.”
After “whenever you deal 10 or more points of damage to your opponent in melee” insert: with a single attack


However, the feat was reprinted in Deities & Demigods, and was added to the online 3.5 SRD in the "Divine" section. It was reprinted *without* the errata, which gives us two possibilities:

1) The designers changed their mind about the errata and felt that the original text of the feat was sufficiently balanced.

2) The designers forgot about the Sword & Fist errata and just didn't include it in the Divine section of the SRD out of sloppiness or laziness. If they were aware of the oversight, then they probably would have included it.

Insisting that the S&F errata is still in effect is one of the cornerstones of a philosophy that is typically abbreviated on this forum as MCHNT ("Melee Can't Have Nice Things"). For me personally, I disagree with this philosophy, so I'm inclined to advocate for Option #1 (although my gut says Option #2 is the more likely scenario).



Question about charging, when I charge with a reach weapon, can I only attack enemies directly in front of me (2 squares) or can I attack any square in front of me (8 total)?

There is no "front" or "facing" in D&D combat, so there's no functional difference between the threatened squares around you. In most cases, if you have multiple attacks then you can switch targets or alternate attacks between any opponents within your threatened area. However, the text for Charge refers to a "designated opponent" (singular), so it assumes there's only one target when you're charging. So long as you are following the movement requirements for charging (in a straight line, no intervening terrain/obstacles, nearest square where you can attack), you can attack your designated opponent wherever he happens to be in your threatened area.

If you have Pounce (or some other method to attack more than once), and you have multiple opponents in your threatened area after you finish moving on the charge, then... the rules don't explicitly cover that. I would say that so long as you attack your "designated" charge opponent at least once, I'd be fine with it if you wanted to use your other attacks for different opponents that happened to be within your threatened area.

[Master O'Laughs]

So knock-down errata made it so you could only trip 1 opponent for free and it does not allow an attack from Improved Trip.

The srd wording goes back to the original wording that lets you make a free trip attempt against each opponent you deal more than 10 damage to and it may allow free attacks against each of them through improved trip.

Did I get that correctly?

Also, as far as ToB, Is warblade or crusader the better choice? What maneuvers/stances would I be looking at to remove the need of a 20 ft run?

[Master O'Laughs]

So if I chose to be mounted, my DM said he would be open to giving me a Roc as a mount. How much it is weakened to be level appropriate is TBD.

If mounting up is worth it, should I look at paladin/cavalier levels? Also, I was trying to find decent mounted PrC's and saw windrider but do not see it mentioned often at all in all the forums/guides I was trying to find.

[Darrin]

So knock-down errata made it so you could only trip 1 opponent for free and it does not allow an attack from Improved Trip.

The srd wording goes back to the original wording that lets you make a free trip attempt against each opponent you deal more than 10 damage to and it may allow free attacks against each of them through improved trip.

Did I get that correctly?


Yes, I think you've got it.



Also, as far as ToB, Is warblade or crusader the better choice? What maneuvers/stances would I be looking at to remove the need of a 20 ft run?

Warblade is a little more popular than Crusader for a variety of reasons. Warblade is something of a "sports car": a little flashy, high-performance engine throws out a lot of horsepower, corners well in a tight spot, vicious when let loose on a track but still feisty enough for street-rodding. Gets access to disciplines with a decent variety of strikes, boosts, utility, and a little defense/support.

Crusader is more of a "pick-up truck": solid, dependable chassis that can take a lot of punishment, not quite as flashy as the sports car but a reliable workhorse. Can take a huge amount of punishment, and is considered the closest thing 3.5 has that could be called a "tank". Disciplines tend to be heavy on standard action strikes, a little thin on boosts/counters, but has more defensive and support options.

If you want to focus on Pounce/Leap Attack, then Warblade works best, as they have access to the Tiger Claw discipline. The stance you're looking for is Leaping Dragon Stance, which gives you a +10-foot bonus on jump checks and allows you treat all your jump checks as if you had a running start. To pick it up, though, you'll need an Initiator Level of 5, so if you're just looking for a dip, then that probably works best at Barbarian 2/Fighter 6/Warblade 1. The text in ToB says you have to start play with a level 1 stance (either Punishing Stance or Leading the Charge is good), but there's some argument about whether characters that don't start as martial adepts should be forced to pick a 1st-level stance or if they can pick a higher-level stance with a later dip. You'll want to check on that with the DM... if he says you have to pick a 1st-level stance, you can take Martial Stance as your 9th level feat to get Leaping Dragon Stance if need be.


So if I chose to be mounted, my DM said he would be open to giving me a Roc as a mount. How much it is weakened to be level appropriate is TBD.


*blink* *blink* Um... a hippogriff is considered a level-appropriate mount for a 6th level Paladin. I suppose you could start with that, call it a "baby roc", but getting a flying mount before 4th level might ruffle some feathers (pun intended).



If mounting up is worth it, should I look at paladin/cavalier levels? Also, I was trying to find decent mounted PrC's and saw windrider but do not see it mentioned often at all in all the forums/guides I was trying to find.

Windrider is a decent enough PrC, but it doesn't give your mount the same benefits as a paladin's special mount or a druid's animal companion. The other issue with it is if your mount is larger than medium-sized, then it can be problematic to take it into dungeons and other environments where it doesn't fit well through doors/tunnels. Cavalier is a pile of garbage... feat tax is way too high, and doesn't advance your mount without taking 5 levels of Paladin first.

If you want to do something with mounted combat, Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 3 is probably better than mucking around with Paladin or Cavalier. The Wild Cohort feat (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) can also give you a mount that scales up as you gain levels. I've also heard good things about Ashworm Dragoon (Sandstorm).

[Master O'Laughs]

Yes, I think you've got it.



Warblade is a little more popular than Crusader for a variety of reasons. Warblade is something of a "sports car": a little flashy, high-performance engine throws out a lot of horsepower, corners well in a tight spot, vicious when let loose on a track but still feisty enough for street-rodding. Gets access to disciplines with a decent variety of strikes, boosts, utility, and a little defense/support.

Crusader is more of a "pick-up truck": solid, dependable chassis that can take a lot of punishment, not quite as flashy as the sports car but a reliable workhorse. Can take a huge amount of punishment, and is considered the closest thing 3.5 has that could be called a "tank". Disciplines tend to be heavy on standard action strikes, a little thin on boosts/counters, but has more defensive and support options.

If you want to focus on Pounce/Leap Attack, then Warblade works best, as they have access to the Tiger Claw discipline. The stance you're looking for is Leaping Dragon Stance, which gives you a +10-foot bonus on jump checks and allows you treat all your jump checks as if you had a running start. To pick it up, though, you'll need an Initiator Level of 5, so if you're just looking for a dip, then that probably works best at Barbarian 2/Fighter 6/Warblade 1. The text in ToB says you have to start play with a level 1 stance (either Punishing Stance or Leading the Charge is good), but there's some argument about whether characters that don't start as martial adepts should be forced to pick a 1st-level stance or if they can pick a higher-level stance with a later dip. You'll want to check on that with the DM... if he says you have to pick a 1st-level stance, you can take Martial Stance as your 9th level feat to get Leaping Dragon Stance if need be.



*blink* *blink* Um... a hippogriff is considered a level-appropriate mount for a 6th level Paladin. I suppose you could start with that, call it a "baby roc", but getting a flying mount before 4th level might ruffle some feathers (pun intended).



Windrider is a decent enough PrC, but it doesn't give your mount the same benefits as a paladin's special mount or a druid's animal companion. The other issue with it is if your mount is larger than medium-sized, then it can be problematic to take it into dungeons and other environments where it doesn't fit well through doors/tunnels. Cavalier is a pile of garbage... feat tax is way too high, and doesn't advance your mount without taking 5 levels of Paladin first.

If you want to do something with mounted combat, Beastmaster 1/Wild Plains Outrider 3 is probably better than mucking around with Paladin or Cavalier. The Wild Cohort feat (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) can also give you a mount that scales up as you gain levels. I've also heard good things about Ashworm Dragoon (Sandstorm).

Thanks for the input. I will try and order my thoughts as best as possible.

1) Sadly I checked about Ashworm Dragoon and Worms in general do not exist on the continent and all characters would not know if other continents even existed. So even though I am starting at level 10, for the foreseeable future, Ashworm Dragoon not an option.

2) Since Demons will be heavily featured as a common enemy, I really want 10 levels of HellReaver. Whether or not the lvl 10 ability is good, it has so much flavorful.

3) The mount size issue is one that is bothering me and, when a Roc mount was first suggested I was super excited, it ultimately is not something I want to base my whole character upon. I am leaning more towards spiked chain fighting instead of lance so I have more options in combat. If feats are too tight and I cannot take exoticist fighter for spiked chain proficiency, then I guess halberd and armor spikes will have to do.

4) I think I want to base the character on charge into the fray and then lock down baddies. It sounds like I want to focus maneuvers on boosts and counters to take advantage of my full BAB. and from what I read, Crusader gives access to Devoted Spirit which has good stances for locking down targets. Possible Level Path could be Barb2/Fighter2/Crusader1/Hellreaverx/Crusaderx/Hellreaver(10-x)/Crusader(5-x)

5) If human, is dragonborn worth the loss of feat & skills? Wings seem like the best pick because of some stacking with charge bonuses.

6) Can Warblade sufficiently improve lock down capabilities or is that more the Crusaders' stchick?

[Darrin]

4) I think I want to base the character on charge into the fray and then lock down baddies. It sounds like I want to focus maneuvers on boosts and counters to take advantage of my full BAB. and from what I read, Crusader gives access to Devoted Spirit which has good stances for locking down targets. Possible Level Path could be Barb2/Fighter2/Crusader1/Hellreaverx/Crusaderx/Hellreaver(10-x)/Crusader(5-x)


Crusader gets you Thicket of Blades and a few standard-action strikes that can prevent or discourage an opponent from moving. If you want to do Lockdown, you'll want to pick up Combat Reflexes and Stand Still (XPH). But that's a much different strategy than the Pounce/PA/Leap Attack. It would be difficult to fit both strategies into the same build.



5) If human, is dragonborn worth the loss of feat & skills? Wings seem like the best pick because of some stacking with charge bonuses.


You do *not* have to lose your human bonus feat. Read Races of the Dragon p. 10 carefully:

"If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have." (emphasis added)

This means if you gain a bonus feat via class levels, you can lose that instead. By taking levels in Fighter, you can lose Tower Shield Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, etc. Those are granted as bonus feats as per the text in the PHB.

On top of that, you can also trade on of your existing feats for Dragon Tail (add Prehensile Tail for an additional offhand attack) or Dragon Wings (one feat away from a fly speed, if you really want that Dragonborn breath weapon).

Losing the skill points might sting a bit, but it sounds like it's not really your job to be the skillmonkey.



6) Can Warblade sufficiently improve lock down capabilities or is that more the Crusaders' stchick?

A Warblade that picks up Thicket of Blades (with Martial Study/Martial Stance) or via a Crusader dip can be decent at lockdown. You can pick up Combat Reflexes via the Warblade 5's bonus feat, but with everything else going on in the build that could be a long wait.

[Master O'Laughs]

Crusader gets you Thicket of Blades and a few standard-action strikes that can prevent or discourage an opponent from moving. If you want to do Lockdown, you'll want to pick up Combat Reflexes and Stand Still (XPH). But that's a much different strategy than the Pounce/PA/Leap Attack. It would be difficult to fit both strategies into the same build.



You do *not* have to lose your human bonus feat. Read Races of the Dragon p. 10 carefully:

"If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have." (emphasis added)

This means if you gain a bonus feat via class levels, you can lose that instead. By taking levels in Fighter, you can lose Tower Shield Proficiency, Heavy Armor Proficiency, etc. Those are granted as bonus feats as per the text in the PHB.

On top of that, you can also trade on of your existing feats for Dragon Tail (add Prehensile Tail for an additional offhand attack) or Dragon Wings (one feat away from a fly speed, if you really want that Dragonborn breath weapon).

Losing the skill points might sting a bit, but it sounds like it's not really your job to be the skillmonkey.



A Warblade that picks up Thicket of Blades (with Martial Study/Martial Stance) or via a Crusader dip can be decent at lockdown. You can pick up Combat Reflexes via the Warblade 5's bonus feat, but with everything else going on in the build that could be a long wait.

So it looks like I would need to take a psionic's feat to grant psi points to even take stand still?

So far this is the class progression/feat progression if I completely abandon the mounted angle.

Classes:
ECL1 - Barbarian 1 (Spirit Lion Totem ACF)
ECL2 - Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem ACF)
ECL3 - Fighter 1 (Exoticist ACF)
ECL4 - Fighter 2
ECL5 - Crusader 1
ECL6 - Hellreaver 1
ECL7 - Hellreaver 2
ECL8 - Hellreaver 3
ECL9 - Hellreaver 4
ECL10 - Crusader 2

Feats:
ECL1 - L1 - Power Attack
ECL1 - H1 - Stand Still
ECL2 - B2 - Improved trip
ECL3 - L3 - Knock-Down
ECL3 - F1 - Improved Bull Rush
ECL4 - F2 - Combat Reflexes
ECL6 - L6 - Shock Trooper
ECL9 - L9 - Leap Attack

That would allow me to grab Thicket of Blades at level 10 for my second stance. I would also cap Crusader at 6th by 20 unless we go into epic levels.

[Master O'Laughs]

Also, could you post the book and page number or link the srd on tower shield/heavy armor proficiency being equivalent for feats?

Along those lines, if I gain 4 exotic weapon proficiencies from Exoticist fight I could lose proficiency in one of them?

[tyckspoon]

So it looks like I would need to take a psionic's feat to grant psi points to even take stand still?


No, not everything in the XPH is a [Psionic] feat. Stand Still is a standard feat that just happens to be printed in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

[Master O'Laughs]

No, not everything in the XPH is a [Psionic] feat. Stand Still is a standard feat that just happens to be printed in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Okay, because I saw it list this as the pre-reqs:

Prerequisite
STR 13, reserve power points 1+,

[tyckspoon]

Okay, because I saw it list this as the pre-reqs:

Prerequisite
STR 13, reserve power points 1+,

?? (googles) Oh. Make sure you're looking at the Expanded Psionics Handbook or a source that draws from it - that's the 3.5 version of the psionics material. The prereq you cite there is from the Psionics Handbook, which is the 3.0 (almost completely obsolete and replaced with the Expanded Psionics Handbook) version of the material. The 3.5 version of the feat just has the Str requirement. No, I don't know why they didn't give the 3.5 rewrite of psionics a more distinct name either.

[Master O'Laughs]

?? (googles) Oh. Make sure you're looking at the Expanded Psionics Handbook or a source that draws from it - that's the 3.5 version of the psionics material. The prereq you cite there is from the Psionics Handbook, which is the 3.0 (almost completely obsolete and replaced with the Expanded Psionics Handbook) version of the material. The 3.5 version of the feat just has the Str requirement. No, I don't know why they didn't give the 3.5 rewrite of psionics a more distinct name either.

ah okay gotcha! Thanks!

[Master O'Laughs]

So Item-wise for the Crusader/Hellreaver, this is what I was thinking so far:

Mithral Full Plate +1
Animated Shield +1
Valorous Spiked Chain +1
Belt of Giant Strength +2
Boots of Striding and Springing
Cloak of Resistance +3

The MiC is a mixed bag and my DM is likely to say no if the item "seems" vastly underpriced (ie Chrono Charms). I know Healing Belt and Belt of Battle are listed as "good" items but not sure if necessary and whether I should just go for the +STR belt.

The sorcerer in the group has craft wondrous item so I could go lower on the Cloak of Resistance and have them buff it for cheaper costs.

Valorous is the only non-PHB magic enhancement I have gotten approved so far but my DM is reasonable for other suggestions.

THanks

[Master O'Laughs]

Another question I have, does thicket of blades/stand still/knock down create complete lock down or redundancies?

I charge in attack and attempting to trip everyone I hit for over 10 damage. If prone, then on their turn, does stand still goes off as they try to stand up? And does it prevent them from standing up?

Also, does knock down/improved trip occur on Attacks of Opputunity?

[Darrin]

Also, could you post the book and page number or link the srd on tower shield/heavy armor proficiency being equivalent for feats?


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#armorProficiencyHeavy

"Special: Fighters, barbarians, paladins, clerics, druids, and bards automatically have Armor Proficiency (heavy) as a bonus feat. They need not select it." (emphasis added)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#towerShieldProficiency

"Special: Fighters automatically have Tower Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat. They need not select it." (emphasis added)



Along those lines, if I gain 4 exotic weapon proficiencies from Exoticist fight I could lose proficiency in one of them?

Yes, that should also work.


Another question I have, does thicket of blades/stand still/knock down create complete lock down or redundancies?

I charge in attack and attempting to trip everyone I hit for over 10 damage. If prone, then on their turn, does stand still goes off as they try to stand up? And does it prevent them from standing up?

Also, does knock down/improved trip occur on Attacks of Opputunity?

Standing up from prone provokes an AoO because Table 8-2 in the PHB says it does. Standing up does not trigger Stand Still because the text for the feat says it activates when an opponent moves "out of a square you threaten", and standing up within the same square doesn't count as moving out.

Thicket of Blades is a little trickier, as the text specifies "any sort of movement" but doesn't explicitly define what that means. Standing up, drawing a weapon, retrieving a stored item, or opening a door are all classified as "move actions" and by definition would involve "any sort of movement", but my understanding is these types of "movement" are not considered as triggering Thicket of Blades. Otherwise, an opponent moving his lips to talk or even breathing could be considered "any sort of movement". You'll probably want to check with the DM, but I think most people play with Thicket of Blades triggering on entering or exiting a square, so standing up would not typically trigger Thicket of Blades.

However, an opponent standing up from prone, if this triggers an AoO, you would not be able to trip them again. AoOs happen before the event that triggers them, so they are still on the ground when you get your AoO. If your AoO did 10 damage, this doesn't trigger Knock-Down if they are already prone, so you don't get the free trip or the free attack.

If your opponent is standing when they trigger an AoO and your AoO does 10 damage, then yes, you'd get a free trip and possibly a free follow-up attack.



Mithral Full Plate +1
Animated Shield +1
Valorous Spiked Chain +1
Belt of Giant Strength +2
Boots of Striding and Springing
Cloak of Resistance +3


If available, Darkleaf (A&EG) is cheaper than mithral, and gives almost the same benefits. You can add a Strength bonus to any waist item for the same price as the Belt of Giant Strength. Same as adding a Resistance bonus to any shoulder item.

Head: Helm of Tactics (2000 GP, MIC). 3/day +2 damage bonus to all allies within 60' when flanking for 10 rounds. If you're looking for another attack to add to your Pounce, save up for a Horned Helm (8000 GP, MIC).

Face: Third Eye Clarity (3000 GP, MIC), Third Eye Dampening (2500 GP, MIC), Third Eye Freedom (2600 GP, MIC), or Third Eye Surge (2100 GP, MIC) are all good face options for meatbags.

Throat: You already mentioned that the DM thought chronocharms were underpriced, so it sounds like that's not an option? Enduring Amulet (1500 GP, MIC) or Amulet of Tears (2300 GP, MIC) are good starter-amulets. Enemy Spirit Pouch (2100 GP, MIC) and Githborn Talisman (1800 GP, MIC) give you a damage bonus against certain types of enemies, which might fit the "Hellreaver" theme a little better.

Shoulders: Travel Cloak (1200 GP, Magic of Faerun) provides food and water every day, and can also turn into a one-person tent. I'm also fond of the Cloak of Elemental Protection (1000 GP, MIC) as a good starter-cloak. Save up for a Shadow Cloak (5500 GP, Drow of the Underdark), which is basically "Abrupt Jaunt" 3/day.

Arms: Armband of Elusive Action (800 GP, MIC) is a good starter for arms. Bracers of Striking (1310 GP, Magic of Faerun) gives you Improved Unarmed Strike. For any build relying on Power Attack, Armbands of Might (4100 GP, MIC) gets you +2 extra damage when Power Attacking for at least -2. Also, that's a damage modifier, not bonus damage dice, so it gets multiplied. I also love Strongarm Bracers (6000 GP, MIC), even though the damage increase usually isn't all that much.

Hands: Brute Gauntlets (500 GP, MIC) are good to start out with. Glove of the Master Strategist (3600 GP, Ghostwalk) does everything a Glove of Storing does, but without the horrendously high price tag. Also, true strike 1/day. Gloves of the Balanced Hand (8000 GP, MIC) can give you TWF or Improved TWF.

Rings: Ring of Protection +1 (2000 GP, DMG) and Ring of Feather Falling (2200 GP, DMG) are typically what you start with. Ring of Four Winds (2000 GP, MIC) is a slightly more interesting version of the latter. Ring of Sustenance (2500 GP, DMG) may be useful in some campaigns. After that, there aren't a lot of decent options that would be considered "affordable". I also like a Novice Ring of Diamond Mind (3000 GP, Tome of Battle), and Stormfire Ring (4000 GP, MIC) is one of my all-time favorite magic items.

Torso: If you have any Diamond Mind maneuvers, then pick up a Tunic of Steady Spellcasting (2500 GP, MIC) for a +5 bonus on Concentration checks. Otherwise... Vest of Resistance (1000-5000 GP, MIC) can be moved here if you want to do something else with your shoulder slot.

Waist: Healing Belt (750 GP, MIC) is a stupendously good bargain, but might get bounced by your DM as too good. I'm a big fan of a Novice Stone Dragon Belt (3000 GP, Tome of Battle) for access to Mountain Hammer.

Feet: Anklets of Translocation (1400 GP, MIC) are cheap and very popular at all levels of play. Boots of the Battle Charger (2000 GP, MIC) lets you charge as a standard action 2/day. Vanguard Treads (3100 GP, MIC) lets you ignore difficult terrain, move safely across slippery surfaces, and give you a bonus against bull rushes. Boots of Swift Passage (5000 GP, MIC) lets you teleport up to 20' as a move action 5/day.