Sanity check on a bard/druid hybrid class.

[BassoonHero]

I'm currently playing a bard/druid hybrid character. The build is fairly complicated -- Bard/Druid/Green Whisperer/Sublime Chord/Fochlucan Lyrist. It's hard for other players or the DM to understand how the character works, and advancement requires more spreadsheets than I'd like. It also involves a house-ruled Fochlucan Lyrist that eliminates both the bizarre Evasion prerequisite and the bizarre BAB progression.

We may be restarting the game at a low level. If we do, I'm thinking about proposing a simplified Druid variant that hits the important features without quite so many shenanigans. The character is supposed to take a support role, providing buffs, skills, divinations, BFC, and assorted spellcasting utility. This helps to temper the raw power of full casting, though of course it doesn't eliminate it.

The following is a quick attempt to modify the Druid class to serve this purpose:

- Replace Wild Shape with Bardic Music.
- Lower BAB to 1/2.
- Lower HP to d6.
- Add some class skills.
- Spell DC is based on Charisma. (Wisdom still used otherwise.)
- All spells require a verbal component, and Silent Spell is not permitted. Feats like Melodic Casting do work.

The spell list would be an amalgam of Druid and Bard (with levels adjusted as appropriate). I'd use the Pathfinder version of Glitterdust, Alter Self, and probably some other broken-ish spells. A number of spells would be removed:

- Summon Monster.
- Direct damage and area-effect damage.
- Dimensional travel (including Blink).
- The teleportation subschool (excluding Tree Stride).
- The scrying subschool.
- The shadow subschool.
- Buffs to manufactured weapons.
- Grease.
- Silence.
- Glibness.
- Celerity (all).

Two other changes I was considering were:

- Removing spontaneous SNA.
- Swapping the armor proficiencies for a monk's AC bonus.

I'm looking for feedback on the power level and on the changes in general. I'm hoping to drop the character a full tier by removing most of the direct offensive power and excluding some of the more problematic spell types, all while maintaining the support capability. I would intend to play this character single-classed. In addition, if we have more than one melee-competent character, I'd trade out the animal companion for an urban companion.

How does this look?

[Cosi]

Why are you dropping the BAB? Both Bard and Druid have average BAB, so it seems weird for a combination of the two to have poor BAB. Fochlucan Lyrist even has good BAB. Overall, it seems to me that a character like this is expected to be reasonably proficient in combat. If the concern is purely balance, I would look to take the points away somewhere else.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by BassoonHero
I'm currently playing a bard/druid hybrid character. The build is fairly complicated -- Bard/Druid/Green Whisperer/Sublime Chord/Fochlucan Lyrist.

Out of curiosity, what are the details of this build as you’re currently playing it?

[BassoonHero]

Why are you dropping the BAB? Both Bard and Druid have average BAB, so it seems weird for a combination of the two to have poor BAB. Fochlucan Lyrist even has good BAB. Overall, it seems to me that a character like this is expected to be reasonably proficient in combat. If the concern is purely balance, I would look to take the points away somewhere else.
It makes sense for the character in question. That's not to say that it would necessarily make sense for every such character. How much difference do you think it makes? Most of the melee "oomph" of a druid comes from Wild Shape, so perhaps removing it obviates any reason to hit BAB as well.


Out of curiosity, what are the details of this build as you’re currently playing it?
Off the top of my head, I think it's Bard 1 / Druid 3 / Bard 1 / Green Whisperer 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 9. Not that complicated by the standards of these boards, but a lot of work. The skill requirements in particular are extremely annoying to keep track of. It needs two instances of Practiced Spellcaster, plus other hybridization stuff. Plus, it's using a semi-obscure PrC from Dragon (Green Whisperer), a house-ruled version of Fochlucan Lyrist, and the notorious Sublime Chord. It's a bumpy ride at a lot of levels; the casting is delayed throughout and the Bardic Music is pretty sad for a while. It's a bit of a mess, in other words, even though it turns out all right in the end (largely due to the aforementioned Sublime Chord). Using a modified base class would get to more or less the same place with a lot fewer moving parts.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by BassoonHero
Plus, it's using a semi-obscure PrC from Dragon (Green Whisperer)….

I love Green Whisperer and I’ve always wanted to play one. I’ve used it for a couple of NPCs, but it never worked out for a PC.

What other feats are you using in this build besides the two cases of Practiced Spellcaster?


Originally Posted by BassoonHero
Using a modified base class would get to more or less the same place with a lot fewer moving parts.

How would you work the spellcasting for a combined base class? Would it be divine or arcane? Spontaneous or prepared? And what progression would it follow?


Originally Posted by BassoonHero
Most of the melee "oomph" of a druid comes from Wild Shape, so perhaps removing it obviates any reason to hit BAB as well.

Agreed. I think Cosi was correct that it seems strange for the hybrid child of druid and bard to have the worst BAB. For what you’re proposing, medium BAB makes sense.

[BassoonHero]

What other feats are you using in this build besides the two cases of Practiced Spellcaster?
Melodic Casting, Able Learner (to get the skill points to work), Song of the Heart, Ancestral Relic (for plot reasons), and some others I've forgot. I'll have to check my sheet later today.


How would you work the spellcasting for a combined base class? Would it be divine or arcane? Spontaneous or prepared? And what progression would it follow?
As Druid casting -- divine, prepared, following the Druid progression. Wisdom is the primary casting stat. The modifications are as follows:

- Many spells added from the Bard list. (Generally, these spells would use the Sor/Wiz spell level when applicable.)
- Remove a few Druid spells (mostly direct-damage).
- Use Cha for spell DCs.
- Require verbal components (like Bard spellcasting).


Agreed. I think Cosi was correct that it seems strange for the hybrid child of druid and bard to have the worst BAB. For what you’re proposing, medium BAB makes sense.
I think I'm convinced in the general case. If the DM has concerns about this character, I might ditch it, but for most applications 3/4 BAB is probably appropriate.

[Darrin]

Off the top of my head, I think it's Bard 1 / Druid 3 / Bard 1 / Green Whisperer 5 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 9. Not that complicated by the standards of these boards, but a lot of work. The skill requirements in particular are extremely annoying to keep track of. It needs two instances of Practiced Spellcaster, plus other hybridization stuff.


What do you need Practiced Spellcaster for, much less twice? You're only losing three caster levels on each side, and still getting Dual 9's.



Plus, it's using a semi-obscure PrC from Dragon (Green Whisperer), a house-ruled version of Fochlucan Lyrist, and the notorious Sublime Chord.


You can get evasion via Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots and Open Least Chakra: Feet.

The skill ranks can get pretty fiddly, but taking Bard 1/Druid 3/Bard 1 should let you top off Decipher Script and Sleight of Hand. Human race helps, particularly if you pick up Able Learner, but you might need to bump Int up if you're short.

When you say you want something single-classed... well, you're asking for feedback on something that's essentially a Bruid or a Druard. If I understand you correctly, you're trying to combine the two spellcasting lists so Fochlucan Lyrist is only advancing one casting class? (You're almost at the point where you should probably just homebrew a new Fochlucan Skald base class.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Darrin
You can get evasion via Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots and Open Least Chakra: Feet.

This is presuming access to sources that the DM might not allow. Not to mention it requires yet more dipping, something the OP clearly would rather avoid. And, as the OP noted, he's already working with a houserule that avoids the need for Evasion altogether.


Originally Posted by Darrin
If I understand you correctly, you're trying to combine the two spellcasting lists so Fochlucan Lyrist is only advancing one casting class?

Note that the OP has already stated that he’s using a houseruled version of Fochlucan Lyrist. He’s also already stated that his proposed hybrid would be using modified druid casting, so the dual-progression aspect of Fochlucan Lyrist wouldn’t be a factor here.

[BassoonHero]

What do you need Practiced Spellcaster for, much less twice? You're only losing three caster levels on each side, and still getting Dual 9's.
For those three caster levels on each side.


You can get evasion via Shape Soulmeld: Impulse Boots and Open Least Chakra: Feet.
I wouldn't allow that if I were the DM, so I won't ask as a player. But as I mentioned, the DM agreed to drop the requirement.


The skill ranks can get pretty fiddly, but taking Bard 1/Druid 3/Bard 1 should let you top off Decipher Script and Sleight of Hand. Human race helps, particularly if you pick up Able Learner, but you might need to bump Int up if you're short.
I did indeed. I also took Nymph's Kiss for the extra rank.


When you say you want something single-classed... well, you're asking for feedback on something that's essentially a Bruid or a Druard.
Yes.


If I understand you correctly, you're trying to combine the two spellcasting lists so Fochlucan Lyrist is only advancing one casting class?
I want to take this base class to 20. I'm trying to get rid of the pile of PrCs.


(You're almost at the point where you should probably just homebrew a new Fochlucan Skald base class.)
I am at exactly that point, except that I don't particularly care about the Fochlucan flavor; that was just a means to advance casting and music.

[Nifft]

I'd do it in a simpler way:

- lose Animal Companion
- lose Wild Shape
+ gain (6+Int) skill points, gain Perform, gain Bardic Music
+ gain Bardic spells known; can spontaneously cast from Bardic spells known by sacrificing a prepared Druid spell (with no increased casting time)


Losing your Animal Companion and Wild Shape means a lot of Druid spells stop being as useful as they are under core assumptions -- e.g. greater magic fang now has none of its usual targets.

Losing Wild Shape means you lose a lot of the combat competence & out-of-combat utility which justified having such a wonky spell list. Instead, you get access to a second wonky spell list, and you can spontaneously convert from one to the other -- that means prepping niche spells which don't turn out to be necessary can fuel generally useful Bard spells, or fuel differently niche Bard spells.

Your top slots can often only be converted into SNA spells, which means the buff you get from Bardic conversion often just means your lower-level spell slots are not useless.

You can't prepare spells from the Bard list, just cast the few you know, so you're not particularly advantaged over a Bard -- you just prep from the Druid list, so the at-the-table time complexity of a long rest isn't higher than it would be for a core Druid.

You don't get UMD, you don't get Bluff / Intimidate / Hide / Knowledge (all), nor do you get Bardic Lore -- the core Bard will still have things to do which you can't do. You will probably outshine a core Bard, since Druids tend to do that, but you're not strictly better.

[Krazzman]

Have you checked the Pathfinder Bard Archetype Voice of the Wild (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo-bard-archetypes/voice-of-the-wild)?

If you also look at the Skald (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/skald) you might see some other things you could trade to get a variant bardic music... but I think Nifft is at a really good point for his Druid variant.

[BassoonHero]

That's an interesting approach, and one that would have a lot in common with the current PrC build.

I'm a bit concerned about the power of the spontaneous conversion. The Bard chart provides a fair number of spells known, and the ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells to any of dozens of Bard spells might be a bit much. For instance, at seventh level, the Bruid could prepare a versatile mix of Druid utility spells and spontaneously convert any of them to:

- Improvisation
- Silent Image
- Instant of Power
- Grease
- Alter Self
- Dimension Leap
- Glitterdust
- Invisibility
- Blink
- Haste

Even using the "fixed" Pathfinder versions of spells like Alter Self and Glitterdust, this seems tremendously powerful. Although the Bard and Druid lists have a lot of overlap, the Bard list still represents a significant expansion in capability. That's why I'm thinking of trimming the combined list: to avoid adding too many new areas of arcane expertise.


Have you checked the Pathfinder Bard Archetype Voice of the Wild?
I have not, but I will.

[Nifft]

That's an interesting approach, and one that would have a lot in common with the current PrC build.

I'm a bit concerned about the power of the spontaneous conversion. The Bard chart provides a fair number of spells known, and the ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells to any of dozens of Bard spells might be a bit much. For instance, at seventh level, the Bruid could prepare a versatile mix of Druid utility spells and spontaneously convert any of them to:

- Improvisation
- Silent Image
- Instant of Power
- Grease
- Alter Self
- Dimension Leap
- Glitterdust
- Invisibility
- Blink
- Haste

Sure, but a 7th level Bard could do the same things, and that's not seen as a problem. The Bardruid™ who uses all those options isn't casting many (any?) Druid spells of level 3 or lower.

Your way of mixing the Bard list into prepared Druid slots has a bigger problem: reduced level for Bard spells usually compensates for later access to Bard spell levels, so a Bard gets better level 3 spells but can't have them at ECL 5 -- a level 3 Bard spell can be equivalent to a level 4 Wizard spell because both appear at level 7, and not before. Stuff like suggestion sticks out as being very strong even on a regular Bard, and on a Bardruid™ it's strong and early and outside the usual Druid capability space.

Not sure what's supposed to be so broken about your spell picks. Here are some other great Bard spells which you don't have:
- Inspirational Boost
- Charm Person
- Immediate Assistance
- Ambient Song
- Ancient Knowledge
- Tasha's Hideous Laughter
- Identify
- Suggestion
- Heroism
- Mirror Image
- Detect Thoughts
- Insidious Insight
- Cloud of Bewilderment
- Dispel Magic (normally level 4 for a Druid)
- Sculpt Sound
- Tongues
- Charm Monster
- Good Hope
- Hymn of Praise (oh look we are a Divine spellcaster)
- Sonic Shield

Preparing means you get to prep stuff like identify only when you already know that you have downtime -- it's an extra class ability rather than an opportunity cost.

You're right that getting spontaneous Bard casting is tremendously powerful, but Wild Shape is also tremendously powerful, and you get the one in trade for losing the other. That seems reasonable to me, and it doesn't have any hidden problems like early-access to reduced-level spells -- with my version, you only get Bard spells at the same level that a Bard would get them, never earlier.

[BassoonHero]

Sure, but a 7th level Bard could do the same things, and that's not seen as a problem. The Bardruid™ who uses all those options isn't casting many (any?) Druid spells of level 3 or lower.
The issue is that this is on top of another fifteen or so prepared spells. The ability to spontaneously convert allows the Bardruid to choose from about twenty-five different spells to cast, excluding SNA. This is substantially more than any other spellcasting class.


Your way of mixing the Bard list into prepared Druid slots has a bigger problem: reduced level for Bard spells usually compensates for later access to Bard spell levels, so a Bard gets better level 3 spells but can't have them at ECL 5 -- a level 3 Bard spell can be equivalent to a level 4 Wizard spell because both appear at level 7, and not before. Stuff like suggestion sticks out as being very strong even on a regular Bard, and on a Bardruid™ it's strong and early...
The idea was to restore the "standard" levels for those spells. I apologize if this wasn't clear. So Suggestion would appear as a third-level spell, not at second. Some bard-specific spells might need manual adjustments. I don't have a list, but I will assume for the sake of the argument that they are so adjusted. The hybrid prepared-spontaneous Bardruid can cast Suggestion at class level 4 using second-level slots, whereas the combined-list prepared Bardruid would have to wait until class level 5 to cast it using a third-level slot.


...and outside the usual Druid capability space.
This is definitely a concern I have: although there's a lot of overlap between what Bards and Druids can do, there is also a lot that each class can do with their spell list that the other can't. Social spells like Suggestion and Charm Person are one of these things, and adding them makes the Druid more versatile. I suggested removing several broad classes of spells to mitigate this, generally corresponding to things that Bards can do but Druids can't (or can't do as well): tactical teleportation, scrying, summoning magical creatures, and so on. (After further consideration, I'd nix the Polymorph subschool as well, including Alter Self.) It's definitely not all-or-nothing. Some of the gained Bard spells are particularly relevant to the character I have in mind: charms, illusions, light-themed spells, utility divinations.

I don't really think that the expanded capability space depends significantly on preparation versus spontaneous casting. If the full Bard list is added, the Bardruid gains a huge pile of good spells outside the Druid's usual capability space. If a filtered list is added, the Bardruid still gains, though somewhat less. What I think the hybrid spontaneous/prepared casting would do is give a character more flexibility in the moment from having many more spells available to cast at one time. The fully prepared Bardruid would have the same flexibility day-to-day, but like a regular Druid would have a more limited set available at any given time.


Preparing means you get to prep stuff like identify only when you already know that you have downtime -- it's an extra class ability rather than an opportunity cost.
Sure, although Identify might not be the best example because it's so easy, cheap, and convenient to replace it with a magic item. The main downtime spells I'm keeping my eye on are indeed divinations. This was one reason I think that the Bardruid shouldn't get the scrying subschool. That would still leave the Bardruid with Identify, Tongues (as a third-level spell), Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore (as a sixth-level spell), Hindsight (as a ninth-level spell), Locate Object, and Locate Creature.


You're right that getting spontaneous Bard casting is tremendously powerful, but Wild Shape is also tremendously powerful, and you get the one in trade for losing the other. That seems reasonable to me
I'd like to err on the side of less power, if possible. I really like your suggestion, in particular because I haven't seen that kind of hybrid prepared/spontaneous casting suggested before. I think that just expanding the spell list would probably be less powerful, and once the initial work on the spell list is done I think it would be simpler. Your mileage may vary!

[Grim Reader]

Consider taking the Prestige Bard and replacing the word "arcane" with "divine" through the class. Prestige Divine Bard if you will. Then apply that to a Druid base. Its not totally single classed but it does cut it down to one base class and one PrC.

[Nifft]

The issue is that this is on top of another fifteen or so prepared spells. The ability to spontaneously convert allows the Bardruid to choose from about twenty-five different spells to cast, excluding SNA. This is substantially more than any other spellcasting class. Spontaneous Divination Wizard can hit that number easy. Cleric with access to Sanctified spells can beat that number with no investment or effort.


The idea was to restore the "standard" levels for those spells. I apologize if this wasn't clear. So Suggestion would appear as a third-level spell, not at second. Some bard-specific spells might need manual adjustments. I don't have a list, but I will assume for the sake of the argument that they are so adjusted. The hybrid prepared-spontaneous Bardruid can cast Suggestion at class level 4 using second-level slots, whereas the combined-list prepared Bardruid would have to wait until class level 5 to cast it using a third-level slot. Ah, if you're changing the levels to be non-Bard then ... I guess it might be balanced?

But that seems like a lot of work.

Have you already looked at feats like Dderwydd Chymdeithas Initiate (Dr.332) and Greensinger Initiate (ECS)?

Benefit: Choose one of the following skills: Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (local), Knowledge (religion), or Knowledge (the planes). Add the chosen skill to your list of druid class skills.
In addition, you can cast the following spells as if they were on the druid spell list at the indicated level.

1st level: disguise self
2nd level: undetectable alignment
3rd level: helping hand
4th level: sending
5th level: teleport
6th level: shadow walk
7th level: sequester
8th level: discern location
9th level: etherealness


Benefit: Add Bluff, Hide, and Perform to your list of druid class skills.

In addition, you can cast the following spells as if they were on the druid spell list at the indicated level.
1st level: charm person
2nd level: daze monster
3rd level: displacement
4th level: charm monster
5th level: hold monster
6th level: cat's grace, mass
7th level: ethereal jaunt
8th level: charm monster, mass
9th level: etherealness





This is definitely a concern I have: although there's a lot of overlap between what Bards and Druids can do, there is also a lot that each class can do with their spell list that the other can't. Social spells like Suggestion and Charm Person are one of these things
(...)
I don't really think that the expanded capability space depends significantly on preparation versus spontaneous casting. Well, consider how an adventuring party might go through an adventure over the course of a few days.

Day 1: in a city - prep mostly Bard spells

Day 2: traveling a road to the borderlands - prep 50% Bard, 50% Druid

Day 3: at the keep on the borderlands - prep mostly Bard spells

Day 4: exploring the woods outside the keep - prep mostly Druid spells

Day 5: entering the caves of chaos - prep combat spells

Day 6: back at the keep with loot - prep identify



If the full Bard list is added, the Bardruid gains a huge pile of good spells outside the Druid's usual capability space. If a filtered list is added, the Bardruid still gains, though somewhat less. What I think the hybrid spontaneous/prepared casting would do is give a character more flexibility in the moment from having many more spells available to cast at one time. The fully prepared Bardruid would have the same flexibility day-to-day, but like a regular Druid would have a more limited set available at any given time. Well, the regular Druid also has Wild Shape, which is a lot of both combat value and utility. If you're removing Wild Shape, be sure you're giving enough in return.



Sure, although Identify might not be the best example because it's so easy, cheap, and convenient to replace it with a magic item. The main downtime spells I'm keeping my eye on are indeed divinations. This was one reason I think that the Bardruid shouldn't get the scrying subschool. That would still leave the Bardruid with Identify, Tongues (as a third-level spell), Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore (as a sixth-level spell), Hindsight (as a ninth-level spell), Locate Object, and Locate Creature. IIRC having Identify as a Divine spell means you don't need to drink a 100 gp cocktail per item, but yeah you're right. It's easily replaced.

Don't Druids have access to scrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm) already, though? As a 4th level spell, one lower than Clerics.



I'd like to err on the side of less power, if possible. I really like your suggestion, in particular because I haven't seen that kind of hybrid prepared/spontaneous casting suggested before. I think that just expanding the spell list would probably be less powerful, and once the initial work on the spell list is done I think it would be simpler. Your mileage may vary! Thanks.

I haven't seen anything else use that mechanic either -- but I do think it'd work pretty well.

[BassoonHero]

Consider taking the Prestige Bard and replacing the word "arcane" with "divine" through the class. Prestige Divine Bard if you will. Then apply that to a Druid base. Its not totally single classed but it does cut it down to one base class and one PrC.
That's a good idea. I don't think it would work for this particular character, though, because we're starting at low levels.


Spontaneous Divination Wizard can hit that number easy. Cleric with access to Sanctified spells can beat that number with no investment or effort.
True, but those abilities are pretty cheesy. I'm not aiming for the power level of a Spontaneous Divination Wizard. Most Wizards won't have nearly so many spells at hand. The Sanctified thing is kind of weird, because the BoED just randomly adds a class feature to Good-aligned Clerics. If a Bardruid wants to abuse the BoED for borderline cheese, it can use Luminous Armor and Words of Creation; otherwise, I don't think the BoED is a fair basis for comparison.


Ah, if you're changing the levels to be non-Bard then ... I guess it might be balanced?

But that seems like a lot of work.
Not too much, I hope. I'd just use the Sor/Wiz level in most cases. Manual intervention would only be required if no full-caster gets the spell, which is a substantial minority of the time. I'd only have to make the list once, and then I'd at least have only one list to look at when preparing spells.


Have you already looked at feats like Dderwydd Chymdeithas Initiate (Dr.332) and Greensinger Initiate (ECS)?
I haven't in relation to the Bardruid. The lists are interesting, but I don't think they can substitute for an enlarged spell list. Also, in some ways the enlarged list I'm thinking of is more conservative, explicitly lacking the teleportation and dimensional travel spells that those feats provide.


Well, consider how an adventuring party might go through an adventure over the course of a few days.

Day 1: in a city - prep mostly Bard spells

Day 2: traveling a road to the borderlands - prep 50% Bard, 50% Druid

Day 3: at the keep on the borderlands - prep mostly Bard spells

Day 4: exploring the woods outside the keep - prep mostly Druid spells

Day 5: entering the caves of chaos - prep combat spells

Day 6: back at the keep with loot - prep identify
Sure, but the Bard spells that a Bardruid might prepare on a noncombat day are mostly spells that a Bard would know anyway. A combined prepared/spontaneous Bardruid would be able to have nearly all of these spells ready every day rather than having to tailor their selection more narrowly.


Well, the regular Druid also has Wild Shape, which is a lot of both combat value and utility. If you're removing Wild Shape, be sure you're giving enough in return.
I'm not very concerned about maintaining the base Druid's power level. It would take a lot to drop the Bardruid out of Tier 1, and if that happened anyway I don't think I'd mind.


Don't Druids have access to scrying already, though? As a 4th level spell, one lower than Clerics.
I guess I missed that one. One less thing to be worried about, then.