So how do the Gods build new worlds without starting new Snarls?

[Mad Humanist]

My theory is that all their clerics have to be transported to the outer planes somewhere or the Astral plane and they hold godsmoots there. Perhaps 3 different places - one for each pantheon. Otherwise I cannot see how they can coordinate the process.

[Keltest]

This is going to sound more sarcastic than intended, but... very carefully.

They spelled out that there are a lot of rules and procedures that they follow to make sure there aren't any conflicts. They don't push the rules or each other because theyre all aware of the possibility for catastrophy.

[Rrmcklin]

At no point did they imply they'd be doing anything less than killing everyone on the world, so I'm going with "no".

There were no exceptions here - killing everyone one means killing everyone.

[Fyraltari]

Each one gets their turn to add something and the others can't say no. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)

[Roland Itiative]

Thor himself says that the danger of talking to The Dark One is that he isn't part of any of their covenants, and there's no framework for safe communication with him. So, between the other gods, these covenants and frameworks exist.

The Godsmoot is one of them, useful for when the world is already built and populated by mortals, and decisions that affect the entire world need to be made. The taking of turns at the moment of creation is another one. But there must be several others, that we never fully saw in practice, to guarantee safe communication inside each pantheon, and between them.

Like, say, when Tiger told Thor to stick to his own continent (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), they probably used one such framework (which is, in retrospect, probably why Thor so quickly backed away, afraid of trying to force his point and create a new mini Snarl). The Dark One, on the other hand, would probably gleefully antagonise any deity that talks to him (specially the Good-aligned ones), and this would be a problem.

[dtilque]

My speculation is that for the first N worlds, they didn't avoid creating a Snarl. It wasn't just the first one that generated a Snarl, but perhaps the first hundred or so. Eventually they worked out rules that avoided making Snarls. The extra Snarls probably got combined into one big one.

By the way, this is a very good reason Thor wants to avoid making a Snarl Jr. with the Dark One. Any new Snarls made with the DO will include a purple quiddity and thus, when combined with the existing Snarl, will make a 5-color one. Not good. Which is also a reason not to destroy the current world without agreements with the DO. If the three pantheons start to make a new world and the DO barges in to make sure goblins aren't XP-fodder in the new world, well, there's another purple-containing Snarl.

[Takver]

My speculation is that for the first N worlds, they didn't avoid creating a Snarl. It wasn't just the first one that generated a Snarl, but perhaps the first hundred or so. Eventually they worked out rules that avoided making Snarls. The extra Snarls probably got combined into one big one.

By the way, this is a very good reason Thor wants to avoid making a Snarl Jr. with the Dark One. Any new Snarls made with the DO will include a purple quiddity and thus, when combined with the existing Snarl, will make a 5-color one. Not good.

I don't see any reason why multiple Snarls have to be combined. I think a two-color Snarl is a fearsome enough possibility by itself (it could destroy the one-color gods) to make Thor veeery cautious.

[Synesthesy]

They could also use some kind of outsider as messengers. But even if they met in person, fear is more then enough to keep them in check.

[Mad Humanist]

They could also use some kind of outsider as messengers.

That's a neat way to short-circuit the plot. BZZZZZZZZZ Any thoughts on why the Thor has not just sent some devas over? May be he's worried that that would just provoke the Dark One to pay a visit.


But even if they met in person, fear is more then enough to keep them in check.

Not really sure what you're trying to say here. Fear stops them from meeting in person. It would not help if they actually met.

[Takver]

As a god, isn't the Dark One powerful enough to simply destroy Thor's devas? And wouldn't he do just that, since he has a grudge against all other gods in general, and a personal enmity with Thor specifically?

[hroþila]

He might. Or he might just refuse to listen to them, or even consider them insulting ("Thor is sending a mere deva to talk to me, a god?").

If there's an apparently obvious solution to the problem, it is a safe bet that it's been tried and it didn't work.

[Emanick]

I wonder if there are entities powerful enough that TDO can’t just slay them, but which aren’t divine. Thor could send one of them, maybe?

Maybe the MitD’s dad?

[Roland Itiative]

I don't see any reason why multiple Snarls have to be combined. I think a two-color Snarl is a fearsome enough possibility by itself (it could destroy the one-color gods) to make Thor veeery cautious.

Well, the original Crayons fo Time story seems to corroborate the Snarl-combining idea. Each and every time gods clashed and tried to force their views on others, a non-sentient snarl on the threads of creation was made. Only when a lot of them combined, did we get the Snarl. So there's definitely a possibility of this happening in the future.

[Mad Humanist]

Actually isn't there by the same token a flaw in the Dark One's plan? Sure once the ritual is complete, he can swing the gate round his head for all anyone can do about it, but how can he even make demands without creating a Snarl? Does this imply that the Dark One really doesn't have a clue what he is playing at?

[D.One]

I wonder if there are entities powerful enough that TDO can’t just slay them, but which aren’t divine. Thor could send one of them, maybe?

Maybe the MitD’s dad?

This made me think: how many colors the fiends have?

[Roland Itiative]

Actually isn't there by the same token a flaw in the Dark One's plan? Sure once the ritual is complete, he can swing the gate round his head for all anyone can do about it, but how can he even make demands without creating a Snarl? Does this imply that the Dark One really doesn't have a clue what he is playing at?
Well, the Snarls would only be created if he met any opposition, not if the gods immediately agreed to his demands... Which actually means he could probably execute his plan without the Gates.

But any newly made Snarls would probably put him in as much of a risk as any other god, so this isn't the safest idea (but then again, actually unleashing the already-existing Snarl isn't either, the plan only works if it's just a threat, that never comes to pass).

And I would assume that yeah, TDO's knowledge of the Snarl is probably more limited than our own right now. He got some info from some other gods, but I imagine they just told him the basics.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This made me think: how many colors the fiends have?

None. They are not gods, and thus have no quiddity.

Grey Wolf

[Takver]

I wonder if there are entities powerful enough that TDO can’t just slay them, but which aren’t divine. Thor could send one of them, maybe?

Maybe the MitD’s dad?
Why would Thor do that? Why would MITD's dad serve him in this? We don't have any reason to think the two even know about each other's existence. No, Thor obviously has a plan to use Durkon, who actually worships him, to make contact with The Dark One (probably via Redcloak.)

[factotum]

None. They are not gods, and thus have no quiddity.

Grey Wolf

But if they are *creations* of the Gods then they would have the same three colours as everything else in the world, presumably? If they're *not* creations of the Gods, then where did they come from?

[Roland Itiative]

None. They are not gods, and thus have no quiddity.

Grey Wolf

Mortals are not gods either, and yet they are composed of three colours. The key difference seems to be that gods emanate their respective colours, while their creations are just composed of them.

So, if the gods created the entire multiverse, the fiends should be three-coloured (or four-coloured, if they're as old as the first world) beings. If the gods didn't create the entire multiverse, we have yet to get an explanation for how "real" these beings are, and what they're composed of.

[Kish]

At the moment, it seems to me unlikely that the answers to those questions really matter for anything but gods and the Snarl.

[Worldsong]

I'm going to second "very carefully"

They have rules and stuff but honestly the most likely factor for minimizing the odds of a Snarl is the fact that no god wants to create a Snarl, so even if they're not directly in agreement they avoid open conflict.

[martianmister]

By not having disagreements about their creations? I mean, isn't it obvious?

[Fyraltari]

But if they are *creations* of the Gods then they would have the same three colours as everything else in the world, presumably? If they're *not* creations of the Gods, then where did they come from?

They are Evil (and Chaos and Law) personified. If I understand DnD cosmology (not guaranteed), Evil, Good, Law and Chaos exist idependently of the Gods and so do the Outsiders that sprung from them.

The OOTS Gods are only credited with creating the world that stands in the Material Plane, so I would guess that Devils and Devas really have no divine essence in them.

[Rrmcklin]

But if they are *creations* of the Gods then they would have the same three colours as everything else in the world, presumably? If they're *not* creations of the Gods, then where did they come from?


Mortals are not gods either, and yet they are composed of three colours. The key difference seems to be that gods emanate their respective colours, while their creations are just composed of them.

So, if the gods created the entire multiverse, the fiends should be three-coloured (or four-coloured, if they're as old as the first world) beings. If the gods didn't create the entire multiverse, we have yet to get an explanation for how "real" these beings are, and what they're composed of.

Evidently there's a difference between being made of three colors and actually producing a quiddity. Thor specifically calls it the essence of the gods.

Ordinarily, the assumption would be fairly reasonable, but they just don't make sense with what we've actually been told and how Thor has described things.

Also, nothing actually implying that the gods made the outer planes or outsiders so...

[Aidan]

That's a neat way to short-circuit the plot. BZZZZZZZZZ Any thoughts on why the Thor has not just sent some devas over? May be he's worried that that would just provoke the Dark One to pay a visit.



Not really sure what you're trying to say here. Fear stops them from meeting in person. It would not help if they actually met.

For the fear bit, I think that's more off a "If we ever meet, we'll not risk arguing, so I'll agree with you or just leave" then a "Let's never meet because we may argue.

With that I also subscribe to the thought that multiple Snarls may have (or do) exist. As mentioned the Snarl itself is made of smaller snarls, so I don't see it as too unreasonable that the first couple of worlds were made, and a new "piece" of the snarl joined the collective Snarl. Maybe they're is also a connection between the length a world lasts and the amount of arguments that were had in its creation. We know that the worlds increased in age as new ones were made, maybe the current world is the most stable thus far.