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ExLibrisMortis
2018-10-02, 09:28 PM
It's fun to tinker around with low-level builds. The 3.5 rules, in all their glorious intricacy, often throw up interesting world-building hooks. Tonight, I thought I'd share some blacksmiths I've statted up.


Assumptions
The smiths are a mix of NPCs and PCs at levels 1 and 2, and one third-level legendary smith. They're built using the standard array (13/12/11/10/9/8) and the elite array (15/14/13/12/10/8) for NPCs and PCs respectively.

I've avoided some things that I think would make it too easy, primarily spells above first level (guidance of the avatar, especially) and stacking Aid Another. On the other hand, several smiths are over WBL, and I've used a houserule: Knowledge (architecture and engineering) provides a +2 synergy bonus on Craft (blacksmithing) and becomes a dwarf paragon class skill. It may seem a little silly to add this houserule in an otherwise fairly RAW exposition, but one of the things I like about the 3.5 skill system is the little synergy skill-bump at level 2, and in this case, the houserule helps cement the difference between 1st- and 2nd-level smiths.

Alternate Races
Any dwarf can instead be an earth dwarf, increasing their racial bonus on Craft checks by 2 to +4.

A human with Lesser Dragonmark (Mark of Making) equals a dwarf in all these builds. For the Forge Director, the lack of a Charisma penalty increases the aura’s granted bonus by 1.

Any race with an Intelligence bonus can do almost as well as a dwarf, especially if they have a Director and no racial Charisma penalty.

Artificer's Guild
The Artificer’s Guild is essentially a mercantile guild with Craft (blacksmithing) and Use Magic Device as associated skills. The default Mercantile guild doesn't have UMD, and the default Arcane Guild only has Craft (alchemy).

Buff Spells and WBL
For the purposes of this thread, I’ve assumed that only a bonus that remains active for the entirety of an eight-hour work day (or near enough) contributes towards the final craft check. This is not because of RAW reasons, but because of fluff reasons.

Magecraft is, for some reason, not an artificer infusion. As such, artificer smiths need a minor schema, scroll, (eternal) wand, or other item to get the benefit, which puts the first-level artificer well over WBL, and makes them require UMD to boot.

Skill enhancement is an artificer infusion with a duration of ten minutes per level, meaning that only Sindri can reasonably use it, and then only by going well over WBL with duration enhancers. I suppose this buff is only used when it’s really necessary.

Unity wine is a massively flavourful cleric spell with a duration of one hour per level. It provides a bonus to all skill checks, so it can be used to improve Appraise, Knowledge (architecture and engineering), and Use Magic Device as well. Here's the best part: you cast it on some wine, giving you four doses—but you have to share them, the duration starts right away. So with this spell, you have a good reason for your dwarven smiths to get together for a cup of mead every hour.

Basically, any four first-level clerics can provide unity wine for one another, each using their two first-level spell slots to create wine in turn, for eight hours total. Any two second-level clerics can provide unity wine for themselves and two others.

Artificers can access unity wine with spell-storing item or by activating a scroll or minor schema. It takes eight minor schemas to buff four artificers for an entire day. Generally speaking, it is easier to cooperate with two second-level clerics.

Item Familiar
Any third-level smith can take Item Familiar for an additional +6 or +7 bonus to Craft. This does require a rather high-priced item for the level (2000 GP out of 2700 GP WBL), but that’s not out of the question for such a focused character.

Taking Skill Focus (Diplomacy) at level 1 and then Marshal 1 at level 3 allows you to take both feats that require three levels to qualify: Item Familiar and Words of Creation.

Traits
Any smith can take the Illiterate trait and gain +1 to Craft, then spend two skill points to become literate.
Any smith can take Specialized to gain +1 to a specific Craft skill, and -2 to all others.
The priest, elder, and director can take Spellgifted (transmutation) to increase the duration of unity wine by one hour.



Item
Source


Apprentice
Dungeon Master's Guide II


armour enhancements, nonmagical
Dragon #358


artificer
Eberron Campaign Setting


cloistered cleric
Unearthed Arcana


commoner
Dungeon Master's Guide


Craft domain
Spell Compendium


dwarf paragon
Unearthed Arcana


dwarvencraft item
Races of Stone


earth dwarf
Unearthed Arcana


expert
Dungeon Master's Guide


fairy dust
Complete Mage


Favored
Cityscape


Flaws
Unearthed Arcana


guild system
Cityscape


Item Familiar
Unearthed Arcana


magecraft
Eberron Campaign Setting


magewright
Eberron Campaign Setting


masterwork tool
Player's Handbook


metamagic rod, lesser
Dungeon Master's Guide


minor schema
Magic of Eberron


Primary Contact
Cityscape


skill enhancement
Eberron Campaign Setting


Skill Focus
Player's Handbook


spell-storing item
Eberron Campaign Setting


unity wine
Player's Guide to Eberron


Wealth domain
Spell Compendium


Words of Creation
Book of Exalted Deeds




Mundane Blacksmiths
All NPCs, and no magic in sight. Your regular apprentices, journeymen, masters, and grandmasters.

Apprentice Blacksmith

Dwarf commoner 1
Abilities: 12/8/12/13/11/7
Feats: Apprentice (Craftsman)
Skills: Appraise +5 (4 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +11 (4 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +5 (4 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools

Craft (blacksmithing)

+4 ranks
+1 intelligence
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Apprentice)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+11 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Apprentice).


Journeyman Blacksmith

Dwarf commoner 1
Abilities: 12/8/12/13/11/7
Feats: Apprentice (Craftman), Skill Focus (Craft), any one flaw
Skills: Appraise +5 (4 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +14 (4 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +5 (4 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools

Craft (blacksmithing)

+4 ranks
+1 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Apprentice)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+14 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Apprentice).


Master Blacksmith

Dwarf expert 1
Abilities: 12/8/12/13/11/7
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Craft), any two flaws
Skills: Appraise +5/+7 (4 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +15 (5 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +5 (4 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools

Craft (blacksmithing) bonus:

+5 ranks
+1 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Favored)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+15 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Blacksmith’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).

A journeyman becoming a master retrains Apprentice into Favored and Commoner into Expert.


Grandmaster Blacksmith

Middle-aged dwarf expert 2
Abilities: 11/7/11/14/12/8
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Craft), any two flaws
Skills: Appraise +7/+9 (5 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +19 (6 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +7 (5 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools

Craft (blacksmithing)

+6 ranks
+2 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Favored)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+2 synergy (Knowledge (architecture and engineering))
+19 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Blacksmith’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).

There are lots of interesting things to say about these smiths:
The guild structure makes you a better smith. A non-guild smith has one rank less than a guild smith (Primary Contact).
A smith who’s never had training (no Apprentice) loses out on a +2 competence bonus, unless they managed to get into good standing with a guild without apprenticeship (Favored).
A smith who doesn’t have Knowledge skills (i.e. a commoner without Education) loses out on a +2 synergy bonus, but that doesn’t become relevant until you’re a really good smith (five ranks at second level).
A poor smith is likely to stay poor. Masterwork tools cost 50 gp, and it takes a year before they start being profitable. Joining a guild costs 25 gp up front, and you need Favored to earn a profit. Can't afford them? Enjoy having a +12 bonus against the guild's +15.
To emphasize the last point, let's calculate some sample incomes.
Craft can be used Profession-style to earn half your check result in gp per week, but we don’t want to use that option. Firstly, it’s more profitable to earn through the crafting rules. Secondly, guild benefits don’t show up until you can calculate sale prices and material costs.

A master smith (Craft +15) can take 10 to craft a DC 15 item, accelerated, making 625 sp’s worth of progress.
Their material expenses are 208 sp, reduced by 10% to 187.5 sp thanks to the guild.
Their sale price is increased by 5% to 656.25 sp, thanks to Favored.
Their profits before dues are thus 468.75 sp. The guild takes a 15% tax on profits, which is 70 5/16 sp (leaving a net profit of 398 7/16 sp). The guild benefit is only 20 ⅚ + 31 ¼ = 52 1/12 sp per week, so they’re actually losing money! But clever accounting is older than Rome, and they can probably get the tax down a bit by calculating labour costs, write-offs on the workshop, travel expenses, and so on. It’s reasonable to assume that another third of the weekly take goes up in costs (218.75 sp, for convenience), resulting in a tax of 37.5 sp, and a net monthly profit of 80 gp (versus 50 gp with Profession-style crafting).

The same smith not in a guild will only have a +12 bonus (+14 if they have Apprentice, but there's no DC 14 item to craft). They can take 10 to craft a DC 12 item, accelerated, making 484 sp’s worth of progress. Their material expenses are 161 ⅓ sp, their sundry expenses are the same, so their net profits are 161 ⅓ sp, about 64 gp per month (versus 44 gp with Profession-style crafting).

Note that the +5% sale price is the benefit of Favored, not regular guild membership. A non-Favored smith without Primary Contact won’t earn more than a non-guild smith.
It's nice how the numbers work out, and only a little (very reasonable) creative bookkeeping is required :smalltongue:. The game mechanics—quite accidentally, I'm sure—provide reasonable explanations for all the differences between the various blacksmiths in the world.


Magesmiths
Still NPCs, but now with a little magic.

Magesmith

Dwarf magewright 1
Abilities: 12/8/12/13/11/7
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Craft), any two flaws
Skills: Appraise +3/+5 (2 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +18 (5 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +5 (4 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools

Craft (blacksmithing)

+5 ranks
+1 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+5 competence (magecraft)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+18 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Blacksmith’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).


Master Magesmith

Middle-aged dwarf magewright 2
Abilities: 11/7/11/14/12/8
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Craft), any two flaws
Skills: Appraise +4/+6 (2.5 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +22 (6 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +7 (5 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools

Craft (blacksmithing)

+6 ranks
+2 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+5 competence (magecraft)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+2 synergy (Knowledge (architecture and engineering))
+22 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Blacksmith’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).
Interestingly enough, the overlapping competence bonus of magecraft and Favored means these smiths are only +3 ahead of the non-magical competetion. Luckily, they can simply pick another skill to apply the Favored bonus to, such as Appraise, which is cross-class for magewrights and thus lagging behind a bit.


Exemplary Smiths
More dwarven than most. PC-classed.

Exemplar

Dwarf paragon 1
Abilities: 12/8/12/15/13/12
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Craft), any two flaws
Skills: Appraise +6/+8 (4 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +19 (5 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +6 (4 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools


Craft (blacksmithing)
+5 ranks
+2 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Favored)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+1 racial (paragon)
+17 total
Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Blacksmith’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).


Paragon

Middle-aged dwarf paragon 2
Abilities: 11/7/11/16/14/13
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Craft), any two flaws
Skills: Appraise +8/+10 (5 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +22 (6 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +8 (5 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools

Craft (blacksmithing)

+6 ranks
+3 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Favored)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+2 racial (paragon)
+2 synergy (Knowledge (architecture and engineering))
+22 total
Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Blacksmith’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).


Priest-smiths
PC-classed smiths with divine crafting abilities.

Priest of the Forge

Dwarf cloistered cleric 1
Craft domain, Wealth domain, Knowledge domain
Abilities: 12/8/12/15/14/11
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Appraise)B, Skill Focus (Craft)B, any one flaw
Skills: Appraise +10/+12 (4 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +17 (5 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +7 (4 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools

Craft (blacksmithing)

+5 ranks
+2 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Favored)
+1 morale (unity wine)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+17 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Blacksmith’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).


Elder of the Forge

Middle-aged dwarf cloistered cleric 2
Craft domain, Wealth domain, Knowledge domain
Abilities: 11/7/11/16/15/12
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Appraise)B, Skill Focus (Craft)B, any one flaw
Skills: Appraise +12/+14 (5 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +21 (6 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +9 (5 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools

Craft (blacksmithing)

+6 ranks
+3 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Favored)
+1 morale (unity wine)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+2 synergy (Knowledge (architecture and engineering))
+21 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Blacksmith’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).


Magic-blooded Blacksmiths
PC-classed smiths with need for extra Charisma.

Artificer

Magic-blooded dwarf artificer 1
Abilities: 12/8/12/15/11/14
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Craft), any two flaws
Skills: Appraise +6/+8 (4 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +19 (5 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +6 (4 ranks), Use Magic Device +10 (4 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools, masterwork arcanometer (UMD tool), minor schema of magecraft

Craft (blacksmithing)

+5 ranks
+2 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+5 competence (magecraft)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+19 total

Use Magic Device

+2 charisma
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Favored)
+10 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Artificer’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).


Master Artificer

Middle-aged magic-blooded dwarf artificer 2
Abilities: 11/7/11/16/12/15
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Craft), any two flaws
Skills: Appraise +8/+10 (5 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +23 (6 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +8 (5 ranks), Use Magic Device +11 (5 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools, masterwork arcanometer (UMD tool), minor schema of magecraft

Craft (blacksmithing)

+6 ranks
+3 intelligence
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+5 competence (magecraft)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+2 synergy (Knowledge (architecture and engineering))
+23 total

Use Magic Device

+5 ranks
+2 charisma
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Favored)
+11 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Artificer’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).


Forge Director

Middle-aged magic-blooded dwarf marshal 1/cloistered cleric 1
Minor Aura (Motivate Intelligence), Craft domain, Wealth domain, Knowledge domain
Abilities: 11/7/11/15/12/16
Feats: Favored, Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Appraise)B, Skill Focus (Craft)B, Skill Focus (Diplomacy)B, any one flaw
Skills: Appraise +11/+13 (5 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +23 (6 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +8 (5 ranks)
Items: Masterwork blacksmithing tools

Craft (blacksmithing)

+6 ranks
+2 intelligence
+3 charisma (Minor Aura)
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Favored)
+1 morale (unity wine)
+2 racial (dwarf)
+2 synergy (Knowledge (architecture and engineering))
+23 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Blacksmith’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).


Sindri, Legendary Blacksmith
The greatest blacksmith alive, and still only third level.

Sindri, legendary blacksmith

Venerable magic-blooded earth dwarf cloistered cleric 1/marshal 1/artificer 1
Minor Aura (Motivate Intelligence), Craft domain, Wealth domain, Knowledge domain
Abilities: 4/2/8/18/14/17
Feats: Favored, Practiced Spellcaster (artificer), Primary Contact, Skill Focus (Appraise)B, Skill Focus (Craft)B, Skill Focus (Diplomacy)B, Words of Creation, any two flaws
Traits: Spellgifted (transmutation)
Skills: Appraise +14/+16 (6 ranks), Craft (blacksmithing) +39 (7 ranks), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +11 (6 ranks), Spellcraft +11 (6 ranks), Use Magic Device +14 (6 ranks)
Items: 300 gp’s worth of fairy dust, lesser metamagic rod of extend spell, masterwork blacksmithing tools, masterwork arcanometer (UMD tool), minor schema of magecraft

Craft (blacksmithing)

+7 ranks
+4 intelligence
+3 charisma (Minor Aura)
+3 Skill Focus
+2 circumstance (tools)
+4 circumstance (skill enhancement)
+5 competence (magecraft)
+4 sacred (Words of Creation)
+1 morale (unity wine)
+4 racial (earth dwarf)
+2 synergy (Knowledge (architecture and engineering))
+39 total

Use Magic Device

+6 ranks
+3 charisma
+2 circumstance (tools)
+2 competence (Favored)
+1 morale (unity wine)
+14 total

Can buy raw materials with a 10% discount (Artificer’s Guild).
Can sell items at a 5% markup in cities with a guildhouse (Favored).


Cooperation
For the purposes of this thread, I'll assume a blacksmith can benefit from at most one Aid Another bonus, but an assisted smith can assist a third smith. This becomes important when the assisted smith has a bonus just a little too low to hit the next point of Aid Another bonus.

Any smith can use Aid Another to provide a +2 bonus to any other smith. All smiths have at least +9 to their check, so success is guaranteed. But there’s more: per Complete Adventurer page 96, any smith who can hit a DC 20 check can provide a +3 Aid Another bonus. Beyond that, a DC 30 check provides a +4 bonus, a DC 40 check a +5 bonus, and so on. Both the assister and the assistee must have 5 ranks in Craft (blacksmithing) to benefit from bonuses higher than +2.

With the scaling Aid Another bonuses, Sindri's forge has an organizational structure like this:

An apprentice (Craft +14) assists a master smith (Craft +20).
The master smith assists a forge elder (Craft +27).
The forge elder attempts (90% chance) to assist a master artificer (Craft +30-31)
Several master artificers attempt (55-60% chance) to assist Sindri (Craft +43-44).
Sindri takes 10 and crafts 53 × 50 = 2650 SP worth of masterwork component in one week, for a profit of 176 GP… except that it’s split between four smiths, and they used 2100 gp’s worth of fairy dust. Yes, crafting is still terrible money.

A little more seriously: Sindri can hit a DC 50 check every week—with plenty of help, but without fairy dust—so there are some pretty epic pieces in the dwarven armoury. When it's really necessary, fairy dust is unlimited, and nobody's whining about ruined materials, it's possible to craft an item requiring a DC 60 check, which is probably the most expensive mundane item ever made.

Using Dragon #358 material (minus the feat requirement, that's just crazy), you can actually determine what you get for a DC 50 check.
A DC 50 check is required to make a razor sharp, perfectly balanced, ornate dwarvencraft greatsword from folded metal and with a blood groove, which costs 2550 gp, though if I were going to that effort, I'd pay for adamantine, as well. Mainly, the sword gets +6 hardness and +10 hp, and the wielder gets +2 to Diplomacy or Intimidate, and +1 to damage.
A DC 51 check can also craft you a reinforced lightweight mithral dwarvencraft suit of full plate caster armour (13 500 gp), which is notable for having a +9 armour bonus, +4 maximum dexterity bonus, 20% ASF, and weighing only 40 lb.


I don't really have a point here, other than that it's great—worldbuilding-wise—to have rules for NPCs. Stealth edition war jab!

JyP
2018-10-03, 03:50 AM
it's fun :smallsmile:

=> it shows that accumulating various bonus in D&D 3.5 is a plague ^^

=> once your crafter can do wondrous items, you can also craft magical tools way better than master tools.

I remember doing quite the same thing, but for Ars Magica 5th Edition with a "mundane" shepherdess (an immortal nephilim in disguise, which could craft woolen armors with wondrous effects at no cost, with a craft score around 28, where expected scores are between 1 and 8 and a Magus would not be able to reproduce her craft without sacrificing a lot of ressources)

Saintheart
2018-10-03, 07:30 AM
This is actually very useful stuff to the Runecaster PrC, since that explicitly requires a Craft check to make a rune, said DC being 20+spell level. It depends primarily on a Craft check, and whilst it wouldn't be blacksmithing, a lot of these tricks could be used to pump your Craft skill sky-high and cruise on into runemaking without having to worry about all those pesky Guidance of the Avatar routines. Basically, bar one Item Creation feat, those 2nd level Cloistered Cleric builds are set to get into Runecaster.

Saintheart
2018-10-11, 08:09 AM
One other minor point to make on all this: when it comes to Guild membership, per p. 84 of Cityscape, guilds don't just charge a 15% tax on trade affiliated with the guild, they also charge monthly dues equal to 5 gp per level, with the possibility that the fees go up or down depending on whether the setting is a rich or poor city.

Given this levy is 5 gp per level, this is even more of a guarantee that if you're a poor smith you're staying poor. That's 60 gp per year - would Favored even allow you to make a profit in those circumstances? And it gets worse if you somehow get to level 2, you're now paying double per month, 10 gp, 120 gp per year. I haven't done the calculations, but for the chicken scratch at these levels I'd have thought you never get a profit out of it all.

(Indeed it becomes predatory - guilds can make loans to members who have fallen on hard times, and you've got one month to pay it back! Failing to meet the deadline results in expulsion from the guild at the very least.)

At least the Craftsman (Apprentice) feat only pulls 100 gp out of you as a flat fee as the levels go by.

liquidformat
2018-10-11, 11:17 AM
There is also the question of rent, most likely guild members would be renting space to forge from the guild so even if the guild 'looses' a bit on the material vs. sales side, between monthly guild dues and rent the guild would probably more than makeup for the loss.

Also an interesting question would be between guild members and non-affiliated smiths what is the rent difference? I would assume the most beneficial would be non-affiliated who owns their own forge which would be the standard for family run forges. The least beneficial would be non-affiliated smiths renting smithy space.

Interestingly another question is the might that large family smithies and guilds would have over the market, such as their ability to do positive marketing for themselves, negative marketing for competitors, political maneuvering to gain governmental benefits, and just straight up sending goons to competitors to ruin their business.

Saintheart
2018-10-11, 11:46 AM
There is also the question of rent, most likely guild members would be renting space to forge from the guild so even if the guild 'looses' a bit on the material vs. sales side, between monthly guild dues and rent the guild would probably more than makeup for the loss.

Also an interesting question would be between guild members and non-affiliated smiths what is the rent difference? I would assume the most beneficial would be non-affiliated who owns their own forge which would be the standard for family run forges. The least beneficial would be non-affiliated smiths renting smithy space.

Interestingly another question is the might that large family smithies and guilds would have over the market, such as their ability to do positive marketing for themselves, negative marketing for competitors, political maneuvering to gain governmental benefits, and just straight up sending goons to competitors to ruin their business.

Insofar as it's relevant, an inn stay - just the inn, no food included - runs in the 2 gp per day range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm)for a single bed room with some amenities and a chamber pot. Even if the guild is more lenient and only hits up guild members for 1 gp per day for air, that's another 300-odd gp per year if a first level smith busts his proverbial at the forge trying to make a living. But I'd guess the 5 gp dues from the guild probably nets them time at a guild forge anyway.

liquidformat
2018-10-11, 11:55 AM
Insofar as it's relevant, an inn stay - just the inn, no food included - runs in the 2 gp per day range (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm)for a single bed room with some amenities and a chamber pot. Even if the guild is more lenient and only hits up guild members for 1 gp per day for air, that's another 300-odd gp per year if a first level smith busts his proverbial at the forge trying to make a living. But I'd guess the 5 gp dues from the guild probably nets them time at a guild forge anyway.

ya it really depends on what they are getting for the monthly guild dues, and cost of living. More wealthy cities tend to be more expensive so while you are making more money compared to a poor city you are also going to be paying more for food and lodging.

ExLibrisMortis
2018-10-11, 02:31 PM
One other minor point to make on all this: when it comes to Guild membership, per p. 84 of Cityscape, guilds don't just charge a 15% tax on trade affiliated with the guild, they also charge monthly dues equal to 5 gp per level, with the possibility that the fees go up or down depending on whether the setting is a rich or poor city.

Given this levy is 5 gp per level, this is even more of a guarantee that if you're a poor smith you're staying poor. That's 60 gp per year - would Favored even allow you to make a profit in those circumstances? And it gets worse if you somehow get to level 2, you're now paying double per month, 10 gp, 120 gp per year. I haven't done the calculations, but for the chicken scratch at these levels I'd have thought you never get a profit out of it all.

(Indeed it becomes predatory - guilds can make loans to members who have fallen on hard times, and you've got one month to pay it back! Failing to meet the deadline results in expulsion from the guild at the very least.)

At least the Craftsman (Apprentice) feat only pulls 100 gp out of you as a flat fee as the levels go by.
I included the 5 gp monthly fee in the monthly profits, it's just not shown. But yeah, you can easily manipulate the rules a little to make a LE guild. The difference between debt and profit is only a few percent.



Amount (sp/week)
Comment


625
base total take: Craft (blacksmithing) result 25 against DC 25


656 ¼
adjusted total take: +5% sale price (Favored)


208 ⅓
base material costs


187 ½
adjusted material costs: -10% cost (guild membership)


31 ¼
guild benefit on sale price


20 ⅚
guild benefit on material costs


52 1/12
total guild benefit


468 ¾
profit after materials







no non-material cost scenario


70 5/16
guild tax on profit after materials (15%)


398 7/16
profit after materials and tax


12 ½
guild membership fee (50/month)


-31 35/48
guild membership net benefit







additional cost scenario


218 ¾
additional costs (rent, wages)


250
profit after all costs


37 ½
guild tax on profit after all costs (15%)


212 ½
profit after all costs and tax


12 ½
guild membership fee (50/month)


2 1/12
guild membership net benefit


As you can see, the 212 ½ sp weekly profit minus the 12 ½ weekly membership fee works out to 200 sp per week, or 80g per month.


There is also the question of rent [...]
I already assumed a third of the overall take would go to expenses other than materials, which includes rent.

Guilds provide food and a bed to all guild members should they come to stay at the guild hall, so technically that's something free, but most people will rent or mortgage a forge. I was going to stat up an actual forge using the SBG rules, but it was 4 am when I posted this, and it kind of fell by the wayside.

liquidformat
2018-10-11, 03:10 PM
I would think getting Extraordinary Artisan would be a better choice than joining a guild and going for favored+primary contact especially if you took skill focus too. With Extraordinary Artisan+skill focus you take off 25% of material costs and still get the +3 skill bonus.



I already assumed a third of the overall take would go to expenses other than materials, which includes rent.

Guilds provide food and a bed to all guild members should they come to stay at the guild hall, so technically that's something free, but most people will rent or mortgage a forge. I was going to stat up an actual forge using the SBG rules, but it was 4 am when I posted this, and it kind of fell by the wayside.

I agree the 1/3 is a good average for side costs it was more of just a comment that where you fall with regards to that 1/3 average would probably determine whether or not you were successful as a smithy. A guild member renting forge space from the guild might be hitting 1/4th whereas someone working their families forge and home might hit 1/5th and the guy trying to make his way in the world of smithing without family or guild might be hitting 1/2...

ExLibrisMortis
2018-10-11, 03:30 PM
I would think getting Extraordinary Artisan would be a better choice than joining a guild and going for favored+primary contact especially if you took skill focus too. With Extraordinary Artisan+skill focus you take off 25% of material costs and still get the +3 skill bonus.
Extraordinary Artisan requires an item creation feat, so it replaces Favored and Primary Contact. That means you don't get the 5% sale price bonus or the extra skill rank, which means you're going from 468 ¾ sp to 446.4 sp profit after materials. It's pretty close, though.


I agree the 1/3 is a good average for side costs it was more of just a comment that where you fall with regards to that 1/3 average would probably determine whether or not you were successful as a smithy. A guild member renting forge space from the guild might be hitting 1/4th whereas someone working their families forge and home might hit 1/5th and the guy trying to make his way in the world of smithing without family or guild might be hitting 1/2...
Absolutely.

ExLibrisMortis
2018-10-13, 05:26 PM
I wrote up a very large forge using the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook rules. It's not bad.

A large smithing complex, covering about 40' by 140' and employing thirty people, in addition to the master and grandmaster smith.

The complex is built in temperate plains, inside or next to a large city. That gives it an overall cost modifier of +5%. It is made up of the following items:


Item
Cost (gp)
Space (ss)
Walls
Staff
Notes


Bath, basic ×2
800
1
wood

Shared.


Bedrooms, basic ×3
2100
3
wood

Sleeps six journeymen.


Courtyard, basic
1000
1
wood

For getting around.


Dining hall, basic
2000
2
wood

Seats thirty.


Dock, basic
500
1
wood
2 labourers (apprentices)
A canal supplies materials.


Kitchen, basic ×2
4000
2
masonry
2 cooks
Feeds thirty.


Office, basic ×2
400
1
wood
2 clerks
Administration.


Servant's quarters ×4
1600
4
wood

Sleeps twenty-four apprentices and staff.


Smithy, basic ×4
2000
4
masonry

Each smithy employs two smiths and two assistants.


Smithy, fancy x2
4000
2
masonry

Provides +2 circumstance on Craft.


Stable, basic
1000
1
wood
1 valet
For shoeing horses and general utility.


Storage, basic ×8
2000
8
hewn stone

Basement.


Total
21400
30

5



The forge has 50% interior and 50% exterior walls. Wooden walls are free aboveground, and stone walls are free underground. That means we only have to pay for eight spaces' worth of masonry exterior walls, which costs 10 000 gp (the forges and kitchen don't have any internal walls). The total cost of this forge is then 32 970 gp. The staff costs 36 gp per month—12 gp each for the clerks, 6 gp for the valet, and 3 gp each for the cooks. If you trust your apprentices to cook, you can save 6 gp per month (spoiler: it's not worth it).

The layout of the building is pretty fluid, but I'd assume the forges, kitchens, dining hall, dock, stables, courtyard, and offices are on the ground floor, with eight spaces belowground (the storage) and eight on the first floor (bed- and bathrooms).
Now that we have a forge, the question is, of course: What kind of money does this business make?

The SBG doesn’t explicitly give the capacity of the smithies, only that it requires a smith to work. I assume that one smithy allows two smiths and their assistants to work. That gives each a 10' square to work in, which might be a little tight, but we can draw some of the courtyard space into the smithy if needed.

In this building, the masters work in the fancy forges, which provides a +2 circumstance bonus to Craft checks. Six journeymen work the basic forges, and two apprentices work another basic forge (making nails and the like). Each working smith needs an apprentice to help out, employing twelve of them. Apprentices do the menial jobs as well, employing another five (two at the docks, others running errands or cleaning), for a total of one grandmaster, three masters, six journeymen, nineteen apprentices, and five support staff.

I'll assume that all the goods are sold by the masters, benefiting from the 5% Favored bonus. All materials are bought with the 10% guild discount. The craft DCs are 10 + AC and 20 for the masterwork component, and voluntary DC increases go in ten-point increments, so you naturally want to craft things with +6 armour bonus if you have a Craft multiplier ending in 6. I'm assuming this workshop produces heavy shields, breastplates, and suits of full plate, though. They're just more useful.

Grandmaster smith
Craft +19 +2 circumstance +2 Aid Another = +23 @ DC 32 (twice-accelerated heavy shield) = 1056 sp/week.

Master smith
Craft +15 +2 circumstance +2 Aid Another = +19 @ DC 28 (accelerated full plate) = 3 × 812 sp/week.

Journeyman smith
Craft +14 +2 Aid Another = +16 @ DC 25 (accelerated breastplate) = 6 × 650 sp/week.

Apprentice smith
Craft +11 +2 Aid Another = +13 @ DC 22 (accelerated heavy shield) = 2 × 506 sp/week.

Total take = 8404 sp/week.



Amount (sp/week)
Comment


8404
base total take


8824 ⅕
adjusted total take: +5% sale price (Favored)


2801 ⅓
base material costs


2521 ⅕
adjusted material costs: -10% cost (guild membership)


420 ⅕
guild benefit on sale price


280 2/15
guild benefit on material costs


700 ⅓
total guild benefit


6303
profit after materials







additional cost scenario


3003
additional costs (rent, wages)


3300
profit after all costs


495
guild tax on profit after all costs (15%)


2805
profit after all costs and tax


62 ½
guild membership fee (3 masters @ 50/month, grandmaster @ 100/month)


142 ⅚
guild membership net benefit


With the 3300 sp profit per week, it'll take about two years to earn back the cost of the forge, which is really very little. Of course, the master smiths have to live off this money as well, so in reality it's less, but the return on the investment is significant.

noob
2018-10-13, 05:41 PM
actually with how stronghold rules works one source of revenue at most gives you 1% of the value of the stronghold per year so even if you had literally 20103012002304032040230403040203400 gods of infinite power trying to make resources for you it would at most give 1% of the value of the stronghold per year because it would probably be a single source of revenue so if that stronghold costed nothing because the gods created it with their divine power without effort their business would provide at most 0 gold.
On the other hand if you make a stronghold that is a tower with a height of 32423554657843423454656344534643556345 kilometers for which you paid the full cost because you used no cost reducer with one source of revenue (such as this tower selling bread) since you paid a quadratic cost for that tower that tower with only 20 workers would make insane amounts of gold since it would provides 1% of its value per year.
More than 20 workers would provide nothing more and less than 20 workers would simply not provide any income.

Crake
2018-10-13, 07:54 PM
When I saw the part about item familiars, I couldn't help but think of magical tools passed down from generation to generation. I thought "hmm 2500gp for +5 tools would be neat", but then it occured to me.... Why not have the forge be magical? Wonderous architecture costs 1/4 for something that is built into the foundations and thus cannot be moved (such as a forge), so you could get a +10 forge for only 2500gp, while still qualifying for item familiar as well as it sits within the price requirement. 2500/2700 for a 3rd level NPC is a lot, sure, but at the same time, this is all they do, i'd say it sits nicely within what they would use.

Also, there are rules on how businesses work in DMG2.

ExLibrisMortis
2018-10-13, 08:47 PM
When I saw the part about item familiars, I couldn't help but think of magical tools passed down from generation to generation. I thought "hmm 2500gp for +5 tools would be neat", but then it occured to me.... Why not have the forge be magical? Wonderous architecture costs 1/4 for something that is built into the foundations and thus cannot be moved (such as a forge), so you could get a +10 forge for only 2500gp, while still qualifying for item familiar as well as it sits within the price requirement. 2500/2700 for a 3rd level NPC is a lot, sure, but at the same time, this is all they do, i'd say it sits nicely within what they would use.
That's a really good idea. After all, a fancy smithy is only 2000 gp, so it's actually very cheap to get a +10 forge. The only issue is the minimum caster level requirement for such a forge (if there even is one). Also, the competence bonus would overlap with the benefit of Favored and Apprentice, which would discourage guilds a little bit.

But the idea of a smith who has invested their essence and skill into the actual forge is pretty awesome, especially if you have a forge that's been running for generations.


Also, there are rules on how businesses work in DMG2.
Absolutely, but they're too abstract, intended for PCs who don't want to play Business & Management--it's all based on a single check per month. I want to show that you can build a reasonably sensible economy using (a selection of) existing materials. And I'm having fun doing the fiddly sums :smalltongue:.

Saintheart
2018-10-14, 12:51 AM
That's a really good idea. After all, a fancy smithy is only 2000 gp, so it's actually very cheap to get a +10 forge. The only issue is the minimum caster level requirement for such a forge (if there even is one). Also, the competence bonus would overlap with the benefit of Favored and Apprentice, which would discourage guilds a little bit.

But the idea of a smith who has invested their essence and skill into the actual forge is pretty awesome, especially if you have a forge that's been running for generations.

Don't forget you can cut those build costs by about 30% if you narrow it down so the Magic Forge of the House Of Steelpounding can only be used by a Cloistered Cleric, or an Artificer. And another 10% if you specify only someone with Craft (Blacksmithing) can use it.

In terms of minimum caster level, I'd go by the example that's given of an item that confers a competence bonus to a skill: Cloak of Elvenkind, which has an invisibility and CL 3 requirement. The most natural spell to apply to something that can dish out a +10 bonus on a skill (albeit insight rather than competence) is Divine Insight or Guidance of the Avatar.

If it's Divine Insight,, it's CL 5 since the spell dishes out 5 + your CL as a bonus on the skill check. But if you make the forge using Guidance of the Avatar, you can assume a CL 3 since it's Cleric 2 and it's a flat +20. Maybe one of Sindri's predecessors in the guild went three levels in Cloistered Cleric rather than 1.

Indeed since it's a custom magic item, you could build the forge to confer a +10 insight rather than +10 competence.

Malphegor
2022-09-23, 06:45 AM
With your losses from being a member of a guild you’re probably best also running a Profit Check-based business on the side (dmg2 I think?) as a ton of your operating costs are mostly abstracted away to be an expression of your profession check plus modifiers. Of course, this means you’re semi independent and prone to more risk.

(edit: ah crake already recommended these)

… gah this is reminding me too much of the business studies degree I started years ago but failed to do in the end and quit. I swear if d&d makes me finally understand how to do double entry book-keeping correctly I might be very annoyed with the education I had

(edit: I also just realised I necro’d this thread. Oops.)