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Fax Celestis
2007-09-16, 11:39 PM
I'm making a very UMD/Sneak Attack centric character. What's a good couple of low-level spells to wand that either get me sneak attack or I can sneak attack with? I've got my bases covered as far as healing and buffing, but I've still got 20,000gp to spend, and no idea what on.

Solo
2007-09-16, 11:47 PM
Scorching Ray might work for you, as would Orb of Force.

Golemstrike and Gravestrike let you attack Constructs and Undead respectively.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-16, 11:49 PM
It's obvious and it's not subtle, but I like Ray of Enfeeblement.

ocato
2007-09-16, 11:50 PM
As I suggested, Lesser Restoration is worth considering. You already grabbed light and all that jazz, maybe silence for those times when the rest of the gang ain't so sneaky.

kpenguin
2007-09-16, 11:54 PM
Anything that you'll need on infrequently enough not to learn or prepare but frequently enough not not to scroll, get a wand.

Jasdoif
2007-09-17, 12:01 AM
Acid splash (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/acidSplash.htm). Ignores SR and is valid for sneak attack. And is cost-effective, at 375gp for 50 charges. If you know some people with Energy Substitution, you can get them in other energy varieties for the same cost.


EDIT: Hmm...you'd need it at CL 2 if you want to get a full 30-foot range, which doubles the price...still, ignoring SR and getting sneak attack isn't too bad at 750gp for 50 charges, is it?

Leon
2007-09-17, 01:07 AM
hehe, you take 2pts of acid damage and 6d6 of aftershock

The_Werebear
2007-09-17, 02:02 AM
hehe, you take 2pts of acid damage and 6d6 of aftershock

I always saw it as 2 pts of acid as acid, 6d6 points of acid in your groin.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-09-17, 04:54 AM
It's obvious and it's not subtle, but I like Ray of Enfeeblement.

You can't SA with Ray of Enfeeblement, since it's a penalty and not damage. The chart is lying, the description is right.

Anyways, you want to get scrolls of just about every utility you want. And then get wands for things you know you're going to use frequently. That means you're going to get a wand of Lesser Vigor, and then an Orb wand or something. And then you're going to get something like Dual Wand Wielder so that you can actually get a decent amount of attacks on that. And don't forget, you can sneak attack with Cloud of Knives, so you totally want that.

Jack_Simth
2007-09-17, 06:23 AM
A Druid's Produce Flame; it's only 1d6+caster level (max +5), but you get caster level attacks off it; as an Effect spell, you can put something else in your other hand, no problem. Makes all those attacks touch attacks. Likewise, the Sor/Wiz Chill Touch, or the Druid's Flame Blade work well.

Don't ignore Alchemical items - Flasks of Acid are only 10 gp each, and with Quickdraw, you can make iterative attacks with them (on the first round, if need be). Flasks of Alchemist's Fire are similar at 20 gp, and have an added bonus of an extra d6 of damage the next round.

Also, Grease. It forces Balance checks, and anyone without at least 5 ranks in Balance is considered Flat-Footed while balancing. Almost nothing has actual ranks in Balance. You do the math.

Zim
2007-09-17, 08:09 AM
If you're also interested in melee touch attacks, chill touch is nice. You get damage and potential ability damage too. Inflict spells are also great. I think most of the ranged ones are covered, but the (lesser) orb ones are great since they ignore SR. Having a backup healing wand might be really useful for the party as a whole (and is useful against undead)

My artificer/sorc is lvl 3 and is putting together his batman utility belt too. I find it's best to avoid spells that have save(negates) on the primary function of the spell since the DC's are very low for wands/scrolls. Any spell effects you can get that depend on hit rolls (esp touch for a rogue) or have no save are great for putting into a wand/scroll. Spells that have a save are best left to casters with good ability modifiers for their class.

Darth Mario
2007-09-17, 08:37 AM
A Druid's Produce Flame; it's only 1d6+caster level (max +5), but you get caster level attacks off it; as an Effect spell, you can put something else in your other hand, no problem. Makes all those attacks touch attacks. Likewise, the Sor/Wiz Chill Touch, or the Druid's Flame Blade work well.

Produce Flame has the added bonus that it can also be used as a ranged touch attack, as the fire can be thrown.

Person_Man
2007-09-17, 09:23 AM
Flame Blade gives you touch attacks every round.

Lesser Vigor (Spell Compendium) is one of the most efficient healing spells I know of - 11 points for a 1st level spell.

Entangle and Stinking Cloud: Pick one. Have a friend cast the other. Used together, and your enemies can be seriously screwed.

Indon
2007-09-17, 10:41 AM
What's a good couple of low-level spells to wand that either get me sneak attack or I can sneak attack with?

Ray of Frost is Sneak Attackable, and very cheap as wands go.

Plus, you can say that you kill things with cantrips.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-17, 10:45 AM
If I rememeber correctly, ray of frost scepters are readily available. Which means you can frost at will.

Indon
2007-09-17, 10:46 AM
If I rememeber correctly, ray of frost scepters are readily available. Which means you can frost at will.

That's pretty sweet. What book are they detailed in?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-09-17, 10:51 AM
DMG had a scepter that allowed at will ray 'o frosting, I think. Else, I'll need a little bit of time for searching.

Dr. Weasel
2007-09-17, 11:42 AM
You can't SA with Ray of Enfeeblement, since it's a penalty and not damage. The chart is lying, the description is right Curses.

Wasn't this even the example in Complete Adventurer (Arcane? I don't remember anymore) for a source of negative energy sneak attacking?

PlatinumJester
2007-09-17, 12:07 PM
Wraithstrike - Level 2 (Spell Compendium)
Shivering Touch - Level 3 (Stormwrack)
Vinestrike/Grave Strike/Sniper's Shot/Golem Strike - Spell Compndium.

Peregrine
2007-09-17, 12:29 PM
DMG had a scepter that allowed at will ray 'o frosting, I think. Else, I'll need a little bit of time for searching.

You sure you're not thinking of Neverwinter Nights? Arcane casters get given a rod of frost in the prologue. It helps them survive the hordes of goblins.

A wand of true strike could be nice... especially with Dual Wand Wielder, which I think would let you get off both the true strike and the attack spell at once.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-17, 12:33 PM
Wraithstrike - Level 2 (Spell Compendium)
Shivering Touch - Level 3 (Stormwrack)
Vinestrike/Grave Strike/Sniper's Shot/Golem Strike - Spell Compndium.

You'd need a wand of extended Wraithstrike. Wraithstrike lasts 1 round, standard action minimum to cast all wands (or longer if Summon Spells, etc).
Extended would give 2 rounds.
Example:
First round draw wand (unless already had it out), use standard to use spell. Can't attack except attack of opportunities.
second round: attack (touch AC is easier).

Indon
2007-09-17, 01:39 PM
A wand of true strike could be nice... especially with Dual Wand Wielder, which I think would let you get off both the true strike and the attack spell at once.

I don't think so.

It's a standard action to activate a wand with UMD, under normal circumstances... but if there are any feats that can change that, that would be cool.

You'd have to do as suggested earlier, to draw and use the wand and attack over 2 rounds.

jjpickar
2007-09-17, 01:52 PM
Get knock and spend your open lock skill points on something useful like spot.

goat
2007-09-17, 03:27 PM
A wand of mending (or Make Whole if your DM thinks you're cheesing). Break into the house, mend the window on your way out. Slice a hole in a covered wagon to get at the contents, wand it back together. Strip the clothes from the dead noble, patch up the holes where you stabbed him...

GimliFett
2007-09-17, 03:31 PM
If you've got gravestrike, or wraithstrike, how bout disrupt undead?

Fax Celestis
2007-09-17, 03:52 PM
Thanks for the advice. This (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=5) is what I finally came up with, and I think I have a decent mix of ways to acquire Sneak Attack, ways to Sneak Attack, and ways to better be a thief. The one thing I'm unsure of is my lack of wand of knock, though I'm not sure what I'd replace to get one.

Godna
2007-09-17, 05:38 PM
Wand of Sleep is always good for some fun though not for a new DM lol
I didnt like them using all the time it seemed.

Person_Man
2007-09-17, 06:28 PM
Thanks for the advice. This (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=5) is what I finally came up with, and I think I have a decent mix of ways to acquire Sneak Attack, ways to Sneak Attack, and ways to better be a thief. The one thing I'm unsure of is my lack of wand of knock, though I'm not sure what I'd replace to get one.

Damn. Talk about efficient use of resources. And its made all the more interesting by the fact that its a Spellthief. (By the way, does anyone else play there Spellthieves like Peter Petrelli and/or Sylar, or is it just me).

Good build. I'd ditch Magical Aptitude and take 1 level of Exemplar at ECL 11 instead. I also think the Luck feats are a huge mechanical waste, though the fluff is great.

kjones
2007-09-18, 08:02 AM
Just a question, Fax: I'm lovin' the glamered mithril, but why get glamered instead of a simple Hat of Disguise? Is there an item slot issue? I'm pretty sure it works out cheaper this way...

Fax Celestis
2007-09-18, 10:40 AM
Damn. Talk about efficient use of resources. And its made all the more interesting by the fact that its a Spellthief. (By the way, does anyone else play there Spellthieves like Peter Petrelli and/or Sylar, or is it just me).

Good build. I'd ditch Magical Aptitude and take 1 level of Exemplar at ECL 11 instead. I also think the Luck feats are a huge mechanical waste, though the fluff is great.

Yeah, I was a bit up in the air on the Luck feats. Mostly, I took Good Karma/Unbelievable Luck so that if someone tried to zap one of my party members with a ray spell, I'd be able to Good Karma it onto myself and then Absorb Spell it. What would you recommend instead?

Hm. Looking at it, Weapon Finesse might be useful, considering both weapons I have--the punching dagger and the flame blade are both light weapons. Beyond that, though, I'm a bit lost. Luck of Heroes, maybe, for a +1 all saves instead of +2 to lowest (from Unbelievable Luck)?

And I thought that the Exemplar DipTM couldn't get Skill Mastery (Use Magic Device), since it's the skill description that says "you can't take ten", not the Rogue class feature.

Oh! I see. Do the dip for the +4 bonus to UMD, and Skill Mastery something else! Hm. That'd mean I'd need to move some skills around so I had 13 ranks in Diplomacy--and I'd have to take the Exemplar Dip next level.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-18, 10:44 AM
Just a question, Fax: I'm lovin' the glamered mithril, but why get glamered instead of a simple Hat of Disguise? Is there an item slot issue? I'm pretty sure it works out cheaper this way...

Glamered fit the character better than the Hat of Disguise. There's a couple of things I went with on the sheet that weren't exactly the best options--such as dropping 5000 gp on a house--but fit the character so I needed them.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-18, 11:11 AM
It seems to me that Nephele has squandered her youth as a rebellious child, trying to get the attention of her parents (a deadbeat and a faerie). This has lead her down a dark path eventually to the edge of the Abyss. There, she turned back with a realization that that dark path does not lead to respect.

With her tentative steps into law, she finds that respect must be gained through leading, not following.

Selene also seems concerned with appearances. Although she has a manor, I suggest that the grounds be manicured and the foyer, but beyond the closed doors her home would be largely unfurnished and sparse. Her motivations may go towards acquiring opulent furnishings to fill her home in a wonderful metaphor of filling a hole in her life and a reflection of the ephemeral nature of power, respect and appearances.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-18, 11:16 AM
It seems to me that Nephele has squandered her youth as a rebellious child, trying to get the attention of her parents (a deadbeat and a faerie). This has lead her down a dark path eventually to the edge of the Abyss. There, she turned back with a realization that that dark path does not lead to respect.

With her tentative steps into law, she finds that respect must be gained through leading, not following.

Selene also seems concerned with appearances. Although she has a manor, I suggest that the grounds be manicured and the foyer, but beyond the closed doors her home would be largely unfurnished and sparse. Her motivations may go towards acquiring opulent furnishings to fill her home in a wonderful metaphor of filling a hole in her life and a reflection of the ephemeral nature of power, respect and appearances.

That's almost dead-on what I was going for. Further, she has a strange fixation on material possessions, but once she has them she no longer cares for them. It's more the act of acquisition than an act of possession.

kjones
2007-09-18, 11:31 AM
Well, that explains why you have a house...

One of my characters had a house once. He kept it in a portable hole.

The DM didn't really know the rules...

My brother's Favored Soul had a feat that let him add +3 to a saving throw before he rolled it. I think it was in CDiv, but I am AFB. Would that be useful? Am I making this up?

Citizen Joe
2007-09-18, 11:55 AM
That's almost dead-on what I was going for. Further, she has a strange fixation on material possessions, but once she has them she no longer cares for them. It's more the act of acquisition than an act of possession.

That could lead to some interesting paths.
1) She may intentionally not protect the stuff she has already acquired, so that she may go collect them again.
2) Her desires may turn to people instead of objects. This will undoubtedly leave a string of broken hearts in her wake. It could also ruin marriages as the purist love would be the hardest one to acquire.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-18, 12:06 PM
2) Her desires may turn to people instead of objects. This will undoubtedly leave a string of broken hearts in her wake. It could also ruin marriages as the purist love would be the hardest one to acquire.

She already does that, actually. With a number of charming SLAs and a Charisma of 27, it's also not very hard.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-18, 12:15 PM
I can picture it now...

Wedding scene...
Preist asks if anyone has just cause for these two not to be married...
Nephele bursts in! "I haven't slept with that man yet!"

*charm*
*enthrall*
*Walks out of the closet smoking a cigarette*

"OK, I'm done... you can have him now."

Person_Man
2007-09-18, 12:17 PM
Yeah, I was a bit up in the air on the Luck feats. Mostly, I took Good Karma/Unbelievable Luck so that if someone tried to zap one of my party members with a ray spell, I'd be able to Good Karma it onto myself and then Absorb Spell it. What would you recommend instead?

You have Sneak Attack, so Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer) is always a good idea. It gives you a big action advantage all non-casters.

Reckless Wand Wielder from Complete Arcane let's you burn 2 charges to up the caster level of the wand by 2. This will mostly be to boost the duration of your Wands, since most of them are such low level, they won't last very long.

Duel Wand Wielder from Complete Arcane lets you activate 2 wands at once at a cost of 2 charges each, giving you an action advantage.

Darkstalker from Lords of Madness will let you Hide even if your opponent has Scent, See Invisibility, Tremorsense, etc. Great for ambushes or scouting.

Leadership is always helpful for the Cohort, and your Cha is quite high. Similarly, you may wish to add a Dragon Cohort or Dragon Familiar (Draconomicon).

As an aside, I hope you get a lot of millage out of your Skills. There's no reason you can't solve most of your combat encounters by casting Disguise Self, walking up to your potential enemies, and talking them into helping you. Maybe use Charm, Dominate, etc. Heck, you could even dip one level into Beast Heart Adept for Monstrous Empathy (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070209a&page=4), and solve most of your encounters with Skills and roleplaying, saving the bulk of your resources for the BBEG fights.




Oh! I see. Do the dip for the +4 bonus to UMD, and Skill Mastery something else! Hm. That'd mean I'd need to move some skills around so I had 13 ranks in Diplomacy--and I'd have to take the Exemplar Dip next level.

Yup. One level of Exemplar gives you +4 in any one Skill, plus the ability to Take 10 in Int+1 Skills. So I might lower Str to 10, Wis to 8, and raise Int. That way you'll never have to roll for 3-4 of your favorite Skills.

Having said that, if you know that this campaign is going to last beyond ECL 13th, then even Exemplar would be a waste. You only need to reliably make a DC 20 Skill Check to use a Wand. You should be able to do that at 11th level (+2 LA) with no issues. So if that's the case, I would forget Exemplar and stick with Spellthief.

Fax Celestis
2007-09-18, 12:22 PM
You have Sneak Attack, so Staggering Strike (Complete Adventurer) is always a good idea. It gives you a big action advantage all non-casters. I'll check it out.


Reckless Wand Wielder from Complete Arcane let's you burn 2 charges to up the caster level of the wand by 2. This will mostly be to boost the duration of your Wands, since most of them are such low level, they won't last very long.

Duel Wand Wielder from Complete Arcane lets you activate 2 wands at once at a cost of 2 charges each, giving you an action advantage. IIRC, I think both of these require you to have the Craft Wand feat, which I wouldn't qualify for until after I had taken the Master Spellthief feat--which I don't qualify for until 8th (?) level.


Darkstalker from Lords of Madness will let you Hide even if your opponent has Scent, See Invisibility, Tremorsense, etc. Great for ambushes or scouting.
Hm. Also a viable option.


Leadership is always helpful for the Cohort, and your Cha is quite high. Similarly, you may wish to add a Dragon Cohort or Dragon Familiar (Draconomicon).I would, but for the fact that Nephele isn't much of a leader-type.


Yup. One level of Exemplar gives you +4 in any one Skill, plus the ability to Take 10 in Int+1 Skills. So I might lower Str to 10, Wis to 8, and raise Int. That way you'll never have to roll for 3-4 of your favorite Skills.

Having said that, if you know that this campaign is going to last beyond ECL 13th, then even Exemplar would be a waste. You only need to reliably make a DC 20 Skill Check to use a Wand. You should be able to do that at 11th level (+2 LA) with no issues. So if that's the case, I would forget Exemplar and stick with Spellthief.
I think I am going to stay with Spellthief. I may PrC into Spellwarp Sniper, since Spellwarp says nothing about spell trigger items being unable to be warped.

Hm. There's also Metamagic Spell Trigger and Split Ray. That could be viable.

Citizen Joe
2007-09-18, 12:30 PM
You could put a twist on the cohort/leadership thing. Mother could have betrothed you to another faerie. It would be a typical like mother/like daughter treating people as possessions thing. Then Nephele would push that only further by using the betrothed as an object as well, twisting him about her finger.

RTGoodman
2007-09-18, 12:33 PM
I was going to suggest a wand of the one of the CAr Orb spells, but I see you've already got Lesser Orb of Sound on there.

By the way, do mind telling where I might find out about this "Rot of Ages" spell? That sounds too fun not to look for...

Fax Celestis
2007-09-18, 12:37 PM
I was going to suggest a wand of the one of the CAr Orb spells, but I see you've already got Lesser Orb of Sound on there.

By the way, do mind telling where I might find out about this "Rot of Ages" spell? That sounds too fun not to look for...

It's in Dragon Magic. Pretty decent spell.