(Sphere of Power) Blood Sphere Playtest, the Sanguinist's Handbook

[stack]

In time for Halloween, I am here to announce the start of the playtest for the Blood sphere.

If you are asking what Spheres of Power (http://paizo.com/products/btpy96pr?Spheres-of-Power) is, it is an alternate magic system for Pathfinder by Drop Dead Studios (http://www.dropdeadstudios.com/).

If you are quite certain there isn't a Blood sphere in the base book, because you would remember that, you are correct. This is a new sphere. The idea was in the back of my head for a long time, then when I found a mechanical hook and started sketching out ideas about two years ago I decided there was something there that could stand along apart from the existing spheres. Other projects kept it on the back burner, but now it is time for it to see the light.

Blood Sphere Playtest, the Sanguinist's Handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UN1kZjvekxnDmuM3BmOZoXFdHxBVRdFseoFT_YjJGVc/edit#)

Hold nothing (pertinent) back. Thanks for all your help.

[Manyasone]

After a quick glance... All sorts of awesome

[Mehangel]

Trope benefit of the Monster has a glaring error, it states that it increases bite damage from 1d8 to 1d20, should instead increase to 1d10.

[khadgar567]

you know any one with rage class feature will kill for the control oxygenation. this talent is good way way good for them ability to rage one more time before needing rest worth the talent. And i absolutely love the blood control as it gives final definitive answer to wizard martial disparity so we can finally force casters to stop casting and body block the next attack on tanks regardless of if they want or not. kudos to mad sanguinist written that. All in all you dont need playtest this sucker for to long just publish it already.

before forgetting creation sphere and blood sphere can be used to replace targets blood completely if the player wants.

[stack]

After a quick glance... All sorts of awesome
:smallbiggrin:

Trope benefit of the Monster has a glaring error, it states that it increases bite damage from 1d8 to 1d20, should instead increase to 1d10.
Ow, that is glaring. Fixed.

you know any one with rage class feature will kill for the control oxygenation. this talent is good way way good for them ability to rage one more time before needing rest worth the talent. And i absolutely love the blood control as it gives final definitive answer to wizard martial disparity so we can finally force casters to stop casting and body block the next attack on tanks regardless of if they want or not. kudos to mad sanguinist written that. All in all you dont need playtest this sucker for to long just publish it already.

before forgetting creation sphere and blood sphere can be used to replace targets blood completely if the player wants.

Completely replacing a target's blood would pretty much be a save or die. Might work as an advanced talent, though there are already options in advanced talents that are pretty much save or die without requiring creation.

[Elricaltovilla]

Sanguinust huh? Why does that sound familiar?

[stack]

Sanguinust huh? Why does that sound familiar?

Was that used in PoW? I don't recall seeing it there, but I haven't followed the releases since expanded.

[Elricaltovilla]

Was that used in PoW? I don't recall seeing it there, but I haven't followed the releases since expanded.

It's one of the medic archetypes. I just thought it was amusing. I think it's only a matter of time before there's so much Pathfinder material that we run out of unique words to use.

[stack]

That sounds a bit familiar now that you mention it. I doubt anyone will confuse the two. Now to go build a shifter shifter/shifter...

[Elricaltovilla]

That sounds a bit familiar now that you mention it. I doubt anyone will confuse the two. Now to go build a shifter shifter/shifter...

Or a vigilante stalker/stalker vigilante. (It's not my fault, we came up with it first.)

[ChrisAsmadi]

The Bloodscarred's Vampiric Heritage - Fangs should probably have a clause for if the character already has a bite attack, like the Climb speed/Darkvision sections do.

[Midnightninja]

After a quick glance... All sorts of awesome

Seconded. I wasn't terribly interested in this when I got the email announcement for it yesterday, but this is all really cool, thematic stuff. Really opens up concepts that I wasn't sure how to do before.

For instance:
Years ago, before I had even heard of SoP, I had a player that wanted to play a Dhampire blood rager. I really wanted to figure out how to give him an ability to drink a creatures blood and take on some of their abilities while bloodraging and I couldn't find anything to base it on. Then you go back in time and read my mind.

For Blood Alchemy: The sentence that reads "By inflicting 1 point of Constitution drain on a willing or helpless creature of the correct race or subtype, or possessing the necessary ability..." maybe change it to "By inflicting 1 point of Constitution drain on a willing or helpless creature of either the correct race, subtype, or that possesses the necessary ability..." Upon my first read and glance at the table, I hadn't connected that meeting any one condition in a row allowed you to use the ability. It might be because I was just skimming. Would you prefer wording suggestions here or on the document?

[Mithril Leaf]

I'm hesitant about how much pure raw Constitution Drain this sphere has, as that doesn't heal naturally. It seems mechanically problematic as you can't use the sphere nearly as much if you don't have a specific magical healer, and also if you don't have magically healing its permanent damage. On top of that however, it's also silly that you can permanently run out of blood. You produce more blood. I'm doing it right now.

[khadgar567]

I'm hesitant about how much pure raw Constitution Drain this sphere has, as that doesn't heal naturally. It seems mechanically problematic as you can't use the sphere nearly as much if you don't have a specific magical healer, and also if you don't have magically healing its permanent damage. On top of that however, it's also silly that you can permanently run out of blood. You produce more blood. I'm doing it right now.
actually you realy want the con drain part of the sphere as it lowers the fort save thus made it easier to use arrest the flow on target for the master stroke. Plus with life sphere and blood sphere we have the evil healer as playable character

[Mithril Leaf]

actually you realy want the con drain part of the sphere as it lowers the fort save thus made it easier to use arrest the flow on target for the master stroke. Plus with life sphere and blood sphere we have the evil healer as playable character

Damage has the same effect however, and heals naturally.

[khadgar567]

okay here is a question what happens if we use Iai slash, open vein from duelist sphere plus prodigy bleeding cuts imbue and drain life blood advance talent same time. Is it stack or we just deal 1 point of Constitution damage regardless of our damage.

[SangoProduction]

Damage has the same effect however, and heals naturally.

I agree with Mithril on this issue.

[stack]

The Bloodscarred's Vampiric Heritage - Fangs should probably have a clause for if the character already has a bite attack, like the Climb speed/Darkvision sections do.
I'll have to think about what the worst case on that is.

Seconded. I wasn't terribly interested in this when I got the email announcement for it yesterday, but this is all really cool, thematic stuff. Really opens up concepts that I wasn't sure how to do before.

For instance:
Years ago, before I had even heard of SoP, I had a player that wanted to play a Dhampire blood rager. I really wanted to figure out how to give him an ability to drink a creatures blood and take on some of their abilities while bloodraging and I couldn't find anything to base it on. Then you go back in time and read my mind.

For Blood Alchemy: The sentence that reads "By inflicting 1 point of Constitution drain on a willing or helpless creature of the correct race or subtype, or possessing the necessary ability..." maybe change it to "By inflicting 1 point of Constitution drain on a willing or helpless creature of either the correct race, subtype, or that possesses the necessary ability..." Upon my first read and glance at the table, I hadn't connected that meeting any one condition in a row allowed you to use the ability. It might be because I was just skimming. Would you prefer wording suggestions here or on the document?
Suggestions can go wherever is convenient. This thread is easier for longer discussion, brief comments and easier on the doc.

I'm hesitant about how much pure raw Constitution Drain this sphere has, as that doesn't heal naturally. It seems mechanically problematic as you can't use the sphere nearly as much if you don't have a specific magical healer, and also if you don't have magically healing its permanent damage. On top of that however, it's also silly that you can permanently run out of blood. You produce more blood. I'm doing it right now.
I have changed all the drain to damage. I suspect I had them backwards when I wrote most of the book.

okay here is a question what happens if we use Iai slash, open vein from duelist sphere plus prodigy bleeding cuts imbue and drain life blood advance talent same time. Is it stack or we just deal 1 point of Constitution damage regardless of our damage.

Duelist + prodigy is a lot of bleed damage. Level 20 prodigy is 10, 15 BAB limits scaling so 4 base duelist, +4d4, doubled the first round plus 1 point nonlethal on a subsequent attack. First round is your base attack damage + 48 bleed. Drain lifesblood (requires a failed save), tacks on 1 CON bleed. For comparison, base berserker on a full BAB expends focus for +60, though that is not compatible with exsanguinating strike, it is compatible with duelist (though the extra d4s require expending another focus. A prodigy using energy blade and the destruction imbuement with a blast type she has full CL in (via feat) and a +5 staff for does 25d6+20 (107.5 average) damage plus base weapon on an attack action, plus rider, for a smaller talent investment and no issues with it stacking on subsequent rounds.

That is a lot of numbers. Might be best to see it in play and how actual builds work out at more commonly played levels.

[azalinrahl91]

Love the theme of this handbook and the good work put into it!

1. A question about Crimson Vortex: you can select a quicken or still ability as part of creating this area, but do you still need to spend spell points as normal for that quicken/still ability (for example: Control Oxygenation (quicken) to make extra attack as part of full attack).

2. A suggestion for how the Blood Control basic sphere is written. When I read it, I got confused because the "You may apply one (quicken)...to apply additional (quicken) or (still) abilities" sentence felt like it belonged in the next paragraph, and that the "some creatures that are normally immune to bleed..." paragraph felt like it belonged after the second paragraph ("targets that gain immunity to bleed damage from their creature type..."). My suggestion is to move a few sentences and paragraphs to the following:

"As a standard action, you may establish a link to the blood of a target within close range. Unwilling targets are permitted a Fortitude save. Targets with less than half their maximum hit points or taking bleed damage take a -4 penalty on this save. This link lasts for as long as you concentrate, though you may spend a spell point for it to last 1 round per caster level without concentration.

Targets that gain immunity to bleed damage from their creature type, subtype, or a template are immune to blood control. Creatures that gain immunity to bleed damage from other sources are susceptible to blood control, but still benefit from their immunity against bleed damage.

Some creatures that are normally immune to bleed damage but that frequently feed on blood may be susceptible the blood control. Any creature that has used the blood drain universal monster ability in the previous hour or any creature composed largely of blood (such as a blood golem) may be affected by blood control. Other appropriate creatures may also be affected, at the GM’s discretion.

If a second creature attempts to establish blood control on a creature, it must pass a magic skill check. A creature may always attempt to end the blood control by making a new Fortitude save as a mental-only standard action that may be taken even when normally unable to take a standard action, such as when dazed or nauseated.

Some Blood talents are marked (quicken) or (still). These talents grant you additional blood control abilities. You may apply one (quicken) or (still) ability as part of casting blood control. Once blood control has been established, you may spend a standard action (unless otherwise noted) to apply additional (quicken) or (still) abilities. Spending at least a standard action to do so counts as concentrating on the ongoing blood control for included creatures.

A creature may not be affected by both a (quicken) and a (still) ability at the same time. If a caster attempts to use a (quicken) talent on a creature currently under the effects of a (still) talent or vise versa, the previous effect ends.

When you gain the blood sphere, you learn the following abilities:" [end of suggested changes]

[stack]

Hemophage bloodrager has been significantly overhauled. Casting starts at level 1, greater and mighty bloodrage have been adjusted, and the ability to make and store blood draughts is now built-in.

[Fallenreality]

Can I just say I love you for making a literal blood-rager and an archetype that gives Bloodragers spherecasting starting at level 1 instead of level 4?

Overall it looks pretty solid, I would love to see even more options alongside other spheres (such as something that interacts with the creation sphere to make things out of blood, similar to the Dhampir racial trait) I'm definitely excited to mess around with both this and the Wraith class.

[AlienFromBeyond]

and an archetype that gives Bloodragers spherecasting starting at level 1 instead of level 4?
Already happened in Archetypes of Power.


Hemophage bloodrager has been significantly overhauled. Casting starts at level 1, greater and mighty bloodrage have been adjusted, and the ability to make and store blood draughts is now built-in.
Thank you, it now compares much better to Mystic Scion, and just seems a lot more enjoyable to play than it was before.

[stack]

It occurs to me that the hemophage could get blended training and one talent per level instead of two half progressions. I'll have to consider that.

[Fallenreality]

It occurs to me that the hemophage could get blended training and one talent per level instead of two half progressions. I'll have to consider that.

It would throw off the amount of points it gets a bit as it currently has 3/4 combat progression not half, but it would bring the class more in line with some of the other hybrids wording wise.

[Tariyan Draegr]

I'd prefer the half progressions personally. After playing with a few archetypes of power classes and just kind of ******* around with builds, I think I prefer keeping progressions separate to blended training.

[stack]

It would throw off the amount of points it gets a bit as it currently has 3/4 combat progression not half, but it would bring the class more in line with some of the other hybrids wording wise.

I goofed on its progression, should have been proficient instead of adept to start with.

[Mithril Leaf]

I goofed on its progression, should have been proficient instead of adept to start with.

Oh, if it's meant not to be a slightly beefier progression then I'd say just go with Blended and a talent per level. I'm just spoiled by the 30 talent Skald.

[khadgar567]

Oh, if it's meant not to be a slightly beefier progression then I'd say just go with Blended and a talent per level. I'm just spoiled by the 30 talent Skald.
oi oi oi this isnt incanter we are talking bloodrager with that much power might be perfect for game of thrones rpg but this is golarion.

[Quarian Rex]

Any chance of us getting a Blood/Death dual feat that lets Blood Elementals created via Extract Blood Elemental count as being reanimated via Death's Reanimate ability for the purpose of Death talents other than Greater Reanimate (control pools stay separate)? Blood minionmancy has a lot of potential but it needs more options. Those options already exist and I think this would be a great way to gain access to them.

Thoughts?

[stack]

Any chance of us getting a Blood/Death dual feat that lets Blood Elementals created via Extract Blood Elemental count as being reanimated via Death's Reanimate ability for the purpose of Death talents other than Greater Reanimate (control pools stay separate)? Blood minionmancy has a lot of potential but it needs more options. Those options already exist and I think this would be a great way to gain access to them.

Thoughts?
I will look over the options to see if there are any problems with that. A feat to apply a single conjuration form talent might work also.

[Quarian Rex]

A feat to apply a single conjuration form talent might work also.

That seems like it would be disappointing. Spending a feat to open up a host of options is fine and a sacrifice that is worth it. Charging a feat to apply a single conjuration form talent (one that you would presumably have had to have already purchased with your talents) is not. How are you seeing the implementation? Will the form talent be applied to every blood elemental or only one? Is the caster required to know the talent already or can it be chosen on the fly? Is it chosen separately for each elemental or is it set with the selection of the feat?

There are ways that this could work but it would require something with a certain amount of inherent flexibility. Charging a feat for a crippled version of something that a player could do with Spellcrafting would probably be a mistake.

[khadgar567]

That seems like it would be disappointing. Spending a feat to open up a host of options is fine and a sacrifice that is worth it. Charging a feat to apply a single conjuration form talent (one that you would presumably have had to have already purchased with your talents) is not. How are you seeing the implementation? Will the form talent be applied to every blood elemental or only one? Is the caster required to know the talent already or can it be chosen on the fly? Is it chosen separately for each elemental or is it set with the selection of the feat?

There are ways that this could work but it would require something with a certain amount of inherent flexibility. Charging a feat for a crippled version of something that a player could do with Spellcrafting would probably be a mistake.
legion talent says hi

[Manyasone]

legion talent says hi

For the life of me I can't pinpoint it's source. Beta talent?

[khadgar567]

For the life of me I can't pinpoint it's source. Beta talent?
its actualy template on conjuration handbook some where on conjuration sphere was a way to make your companion inherit the template and become sorry for the pun but the forty thieves from Aladdin so that was you kinda make minionmancy via blood elementals and kinda still be balanced enough to not break the game.

[stack]

legion talent says hi


For the life of me I can't pinpoint it's source. Beta talent?


its actualy template on conjuration handbook some where on conjuration sphere was a way to make your companion inherit the template and become sorry for the pun but the forty thieves from Aladdin so that was you kinda make minionmancy via blood elementals and kinda still be balanced enough to not break the game.

There is nothing called 'legion' anywhere in the Conjuration handbook. The handbook has companion archetypes, but no templates, so I am not sure what you are referring to.

[stack]

That seems like it would be disappointing. Spending a feat to open up a host of options is fine and a sacrifice that is worth it. Charging a feat to apply a single conjuration form talent (one that you would presumably have had to have already purchased with your talents) is not. How are you seeing the implementation? Will the form talent be applied to every blood elemental or only one? Is the caster required to know the talent already or can it be chosen on the fly? Is it chosen separately for each elemental or is it set with the selection of the feat?

There are ways that this could work but it would require something with a certain amount of inherent flexibility. Charging a feat for a crippled version of something that a player could do with Spellcrafting would probably be a mistake.

I haven't decided how I would do it, but my first thought was something like "when you create a blood elemental, you may grant it the benefits of any one form talent you know".

[Manyasone]

There is nothing called 'legion' anywhere in the Conjuration handbook. The handbook has companion archetypes, but no templates, so I am not sure what you are referring to.

My thoughts exactly, stack. I do, however, believe he may be referring to the swarm and troop advanced talents.
Which for blood elementals would be awesome... "Go, my raging swarm of hemoglobins!"

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The Transformation feat seems relevant to balancing such a cross-sphere feat, right? That’s “pick a talent; you may apply it to yourself” while this would be “pick a talent; you may apply one talent chosen this way to a single blood elemental you summon”


My thoughts exactly, stack. I do, however, believe he may be referring to the swarm and troop advanced talents.
Which for blood elementals would be awesome... "Go, my raging swarm of hemoglobins!"

Hemogoblins

[Manyasone]

Hemogoblins

I know, right :smallbiggrin: I intentionally didn't use it, but it was in the fingers

[stack]

Considering changing blood elementals to blood constructs, with similar sizes and CRs. This boosts HP on the smaller ones but lowers it on the high end and takes away feats and skills for immunities. I think it is a better thematic fit. Might ditch greater and elder for gargantuan and colossal, which helps with the HP fall-off.

[Fallenreality]

Considering changing blood elementals to blood constructs, with similar sizes and CRs. This boosts HP on the smaller ones but lowers it on the high end and takes away feats and skills for immunities. I think it is a better thematic fit. Might ditch greater and elder for gargantuan and colossal, which helps with the HP fall-off.

Might be a good change. Not having the feats/skills would also lower the bookkeeping for your hordes of elementals which I'm sure some DMs will appreciate

[Manyasone]

Might be a good change. Not having the feats/skills would also lower the bookkeeping for your hordes of elementals which I'm sure some DMs will appreciate
Maybe... But blood is alive, so to speak, and the demiplane of blood is a thing

[stack]

Maybe... But blood is alive, so to speak, and the demiplane of blood is a thing
Not necessarily in every setting. Is it even a thing in Golarion? I don't recall ever seeing it referenced in a PF context.

[Manyasone]

Not necessarily in every setting. Is it even a thing in Golarion? I don't recall ever seeing it referenced in a PF context.
Can't say, stack, my planar cosmology has roots in 2nd edition planescape and to this day we still prefer it that way

[EldritchWeaver]

Can't say, stack, my planar cosmology has roots in 2nd edition planescape and to this day we still prefer it that way

Googling shows no PF results, so I'd say it isn't a concern for Golarion users.

[Drakhan]

So first, I love this sphere! The ideas and abilities are super thematic. It all meshes together and it feels like a perfect sphere to use for all kinds of villains (or misunderstood good guys, or even just unique cultures like Aztec sorcerers or something). I'm super excited to see where this all goes!

That being said though, I am curious where the saves for this sphere to resist the effects are. Reading the ability it seems they only get one to resist the link, and then they have to spend their own action each turn to try and break it. Unless I'm missing something, that doesn't match most of the precedents set in the sphere system.

For example, Blood Control vs The Command Charms various levels. Blood control doesn't offer them a save except by spending an action on their turn to break it, leaving them with a move action only if they're successful. The Command charm provides a free save at the end of each turn. They're both control effects, and while there are some differences, it's strange to see no additional saves, especially for a total loss of control effect.

[EldritchWeaver]

So first, I love this sphere! The ideas and abilities are super thematic. It all meshes together and it feels like a perfect sphere to use for all kinds of villains (or misunderstood good guys, or even just unique cultures like Aztec sorcerers or something). I'm super excited to see where this all goes!

That being said though, I am curious where the saves for this sphere to resist the effects are. Reading the ability it seems they only get one to resist the link, and then they have to spend their own action each turn to try and break it. Unless I'm missing something, that doesn't match most of the precedents set in the sphere system.

For example, Blood Control vs The Command Charms various levels. Blood control doesn't offer them a save except by spending an action on their turn to break it, leaving them with a move action only if they're successful. The Command charm provides a free save at the end of each turn. They're both control effects, and while there are some differences, it's strange to see no additional saves, especially for a total loss of control effect.

The purpose is to give the choice between "being hampered for several rounds" or "waste an action to get rid of the penalities".

[stack]

Blood control is mechanically different. The initial save is Fort, typically high, and you stack multiple effects on the base effect, which means that if you spend that action to end it early, you remove all of the effects stacked up on you. This is intentionally a different mechanic from normal.

[digiman619]

Blood control is mechanically different. The initial save is Fort, typically high, and you stack multiple effects on the base effect, which means that if you spend that action to end it early, you remove all of the effects stacked up on you. This is intentionally a different mechanic from normal.

That's fine; the problem is that the action to escape it is your standard; even if you succeed in escaping the control, you make zero progress towards fighting the enemy, who can just blood control you again next turn. Especially if they have exanguinatting strike.

[Drakhan]

Originally Posted by stack View Post
Blood control is mechanically different. The initial save is Fort, typically high, and you stack multiple effects on the base effect, which means that if you spend that action to end it early, you remove all of the effects stacked up on you. This is intentionally a different mechanic from normal.
That's fine; the problem is that the action to escape it is your standard; even if you succeed in escaping the control, you make zero progress towards fighting the enemy, who can just blood control you again next turn. Especially if they have exanguinatting strike.

This exactly.

What's concerning is the potential for a non-interactive game. It's easy to be reapplied and creates a death spiral. A character afflicted gets a penalty for being at half health or bleeding (which is a brilliant idea for the sphere itself, just compounds a potential issue). They're more and more likely to get the penalty applied as they suffer longer and longer, even if you're doing it just one turn at a time.

The closest analog, catching on fire, deals low damage per turn that doesn't scale, provides a save each turn for free, and then another if the character takes a full round action. That save can additionally be made with a +4 bonus (instead of a penalty like blood control), if you stop drop and roll or have a blanket. And on top of all of that, you have a condition for instantly removing it (being doused or jumping in water). And that's all for what is ultimately a minor damage over time effect.

And let us not forget too that there are plenty of effects which just cause the stagger condition that players find extremely useful for skewing the action economy in their favor, or that the save they get to end it early isn't actually guaranteed to end it early. If you say, hit a caster with it, they're likely to never break it without magic or killing the original caster. And that works both ways, against players or NPCs.

I'm not sure of an elegant solution to keep the flavor/effects (which I really like) without making it...well, too good.

Edit: Clarified last statement.

[khadgar567]

Besides blood control is kinda to good as they dont burn action on their turn next one they can find them selfs in gank situation.

[Mehangel]

The closest analog, catching on fire, deals low damage per turn that doesn't scale, provides a save each turn for free, and then another if the character takes a full round action. That save can additionally be made with a +4 bonus (instead of a penalty like blood control), if you stop drop and roll or have a blanket. And on top of all of that, you have a condition for instantly removing it (being doused or jumping in water). And that's all for what is ultimately a minor damage over time effect.

What if instead of a -4 penalty to their save for being below half hit points, blood control granted the target a +4 bonus to their save if above half hit points?

[khadgar567]

What if instead of a -4 penalty to their save for being below half hit points, blood control granted the target a +4 bonus to their save if above half hit points?
nope, nope and nope its already hard enough to successfully effect someone already we don't need that as an additional headache to add instead we need few more ways to cancel that save to be free stuff.

[Drakhan]

Originally Posted by Drakhan View Post
The closest analog, catching on fire, deals low damage per turn that doesn't scale, provides a save each turn for free, and then another if the character takes a full round action. That save can additionally be made with a +4 bonus (instead of a penalty like blood control), if you stop drop and roll or have a blanket. And on top of all of that, you have a condition for instantly removing it (being doused or jumping in water). And that's all for what is ultimately a minor damage over time effect.

What if instead of a -4 penalty to their save for being below half hit points, blood control granted the target a +4 bonus to their save if above half hit points?

Presumably it would also be cancelled out by bleeding the way the penalty applied originally? Thematically I do like that part of the effect.

If so this is excellent. Gives them an out early and encourages setting up a bleed effect either with a partner or by going into another sphere (like death), both of which are good things to encourage. It also gives counterplay, allowing a heal or bleed stop effect to potentially provide a bonus. Depending on how hurt they are, they may need a bleed stop AND heal, which given how combat develops may not be a guarantee to give the bonus that late, which is good.

Also it's kind of flavorful, in that someone who is uninjured or bleeding profusely is harder to effect because they're healthy and their blood isn't exposed.

I personally like this as a fix on multiple levels.

I'm still a little worried about stacking the effects otherwise without a save but this might just put the effect where it needs to be so the original concept could work.

[Drakhan]

With the proposed adjustment of providing the +4 bonus to the target above half health and not bleeding, I think everything else looks good overall. A few other suggestions.


Breaking Free

So, instead of just a standard action to end the blood control entirely, what about the choice of a free (once per turn) or swift (if that's more fair to balance everything since the blood sphere has to be good to use too. I don't want to cripple the sphere) to end just ONE quicken or still effect effect. This way afflicted targets can choose to save their action economy but only mitigate the effect over all, basically a delaying tactic. However, they can only make the choice once per turn and can't choose to use the other action regardless of the result of the first attempt.

Not sure this is needed for most of the sphere, so throwing this out for thoughts.


Talent - Hidden Control

Something along the lines of you can use blood control on a target and if they fail a will save they're unaware of the effect. I know there are some feats, and traditions similar to such a result but then spheres like mind have specific talents for it. Regardless, I think it would be thematic.

Talent - Mastermind's control

Probably an advanced talent? but while the target is unaware of being afflicted with blood control, the duration doesn't tick as long as you don't apply the effect of another talent (so you'd have to avoid the initial free quicken or still too). However, you can spend a standard action to activate the blood control (no save since it was made when the effect was originally applied) to apply 2 effects (or 3 with greater blood control if they're all quicken/still effects of the same type). Sort of like the evil trap card.

Then perhaps limit it to having a number of dormant effects equal to your casting ability modifier. Can be taken again to increase the number of dormant effects by 2?

[khadgar567]

With the proposed adjustment of providing the +4 bonus to the target above half health and not bleeding, I think everything else looks good overall. A few other suggestions.


Breaking Free

So, instead of just a standard action to end the blood control entirely, what about the choice of a free (once per turn) or swift (if that's fairer to balance everything since the blood sphere has to be good to use too. I don't want to cripple the sphere) to end just ONE quicken or still effect effect. This way afflicted targets can choose to save their action economy but only mitigate the effect overall, basically a delaying tactic. However, they can only make the choice once per turn and can't choose to use the other action regardless of the result of the first attempt.

Not sure this is needed for most of the sphere, so throwing this out for thoughts.


Talent - Hidden Control

Something along the lines of you can use blood control on a target and if they fail a will save they're unaware of the effect. I know there are some feats, and traditions similar to such a result but then spheres like mind have specific talents for it. Regardless, I think it would be thematic.

Talent - Mastermind's control

Probably an advanced talent? but while the target is unaware of being afflicted with blood control, the duration doesn't tick as long as you don't apply the effect of another talent (so you'd have to avoid the initial free quicken or still too). However, you can spend a standard action to activate the blood control (no save since it was made when the effect was originally applied) to apply 2 effects (or 3 with greater blood control if they're all quicken/still effects of the same type). Sort of like the evil trap card.

Then perhaps limit it to having a number of dormant effects equal to your casting ability modifier. Can be taken again to increase the number of dormant effects by 2?
they all are good talents to have

[stack]

Keep in mind that most combats aren't very long. You get a save against the initial blood control, the caster is s0endig actions to stack on other effects and you have the choice of trying a new save to end all of them or fighting on through them (depending somewhat on effect). You or a buddy can beat on the caster and break concentration for example.

[Drakhan]

Keep in mind that most combats aren't very long. You get a save against the initial blood control, the caster is s0endig actions to stack on other effects and you have the choice of trying a new save to end all of them or fighting on through them (depending somewhat on effect). You or a buddy can beat on the caster and break concentration for example.

That's why I'm not sure the extra minor save is needed with the reversal of the penalty. Making blood control more difficult to start without setup makes it easier to stomach and gives counterplay options. There are however effects like Blood Puppet that traditionally offer a save, almost mandatorily since its a total loss of control effect. Those effects are not feel good moments and I can't imagine a player enjoying getting hit by that because they failed a save a turn/minute/etc ago.

Though, reading the sphere, unless I'm misunderstanding the intent, a caster can always spend a spell point to have the link continue without concentration. It's been awhile, but in one of the AMAs, I think it was clarified that the spell point can be spent 'at any time' and its a free action so you could do it on an enemies turn. If that is indeed the case, then a caster could spend the point the moment they're attacked to minimize the risk of losing a blood control. I'll have to find time at some point to read through the AMAs again.

One last note, though I know this one isn't something that can really be taken into account for the playtest. Overall, I've found the Sphere system to be amazing on many levels, including the ability to make combats last for a decent amount of time. Once Spheres of Might brought the martials into the deal, I've been able to run crazy combats where shenanigans happens every turn but enemies can be kept alive really well. With all the different abilities between both halves of the sphere system there is a lot of interactive space that can keep combats exciting and long duration. So for my games specifically, the Blood Sphere would be incredibly potent by stacking effects over and over.

[stack]

The book is now available. Please direct any further discussion to the Ask Me Anything thread. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561876-Drop-Dead-Studios-Ask-Me-Anything-3)