combo idea for GWM sorcadin...

[samcifer]

So I got really good stats on my lv. 9 sorcadin and went with 18 STR (17+1) and 20 CHA (18+2). I took Devotion as my paladin oath (pal 5) and divine soul as my sorc origin (sorc 4) as well as Twinned and Quickened meta magics.

I was told that GWM and the weapon cantrips do not mix well, but if I have a +8 to my attack rolls (will be +10 once I get a masterwork greatsword with +2 to atk rolls) normally and use my maxed out CHA mod with Sacred weapon to completely counter the -5 to my atk roll when using GWM's power attack, Would it be worth it to use Booming Blade and/or Green Flame Blade if I quicken a second one for a second attack with it?

This is my first Gish as well as my first (in 5e) melee character, so any helpful advice would be appreciated.

[Platypusbill]

Effective damage output is raw damage multiplied by your hit rate. The thing about GWM is that if you deal lots of damage in a single hit, that flat +10 might not be worth a -5 to your attack roll (25% reduction in hit rate).

Your character, assuming the secondary effect of Booming Blade triggers, deals 2d6+4+2+1d8+2d8 damage, or 26.5 average damage with a normal hit. Another +10 is a ~37% increase to that.

Meanwhile, e.g. a 75% hit rate turns into 50%, which means your accuracy is reduced by 33% in relative terms. To break even with 2/3 of the normal hit rate, you would need to increase your damage by 50%.

There's tons of variables, of course. If you have a really high hit chance (thanks to your Channel Divinity, advantage, or the target having garbage AC) the relative loss of accuracy from power attacking is much lesser, and the damage boost becomes more valuable. Now, if you do use your Channel Divinity, you are almost guaranteed to hit most enemies, and GWM power attacks should at least break even in terms of average output, but bear in mind that you are investing a feat/ASI for relatively little gain.



Using Quickened Spell slightly reduces the value of GWM's ability to get bonus action attacks from crits/reducing enemies to 0hp as well.

[samcifer]

Effective damage output is raw damage multiplied by your hit rate. The thing about GWM is that if you deal lots of damage in a single hit, that flat +10 might not be worth a -5 to your attack roll (25% reduction in hit rate).

Your character, assuming the secondary effect of Booming Blade triggers, deals 2d6+4+2+1d8+2d8 damage, or 26.5 average damage with a normal hit. Another +10 is a ~37% increase to that.

Meanwhile, e.g. a 75% hit rate turns into 50%, which means your accuracy is reduced by 33% in relative terms. To break even with 2/3 of the normal hit rate, you would need to increase your damage by 50%.

There's tons of variables, of course. If you have a really high hit chance (thanks to your Channel Divinity, advantage, or the target having garbage AC) the relative loss of accuracy from power attacking is much lesser, and the damage boost becomes more valuable.



Using Quickened Spell slightly reduces the value of GWM's ability to get bonus action attacks from crits/reducing enemies to 0hp as well.

Well Sacred Weapon basically cancels out the -5 to hit, leaving me at my base +8 to hit, which I'm looking to increase to +10 to hit, if that means anything. I think you're thinking of the Vengeance Oath's Vow of enmity, which grants advantage to all attack rolls to a single target but does nothing to counter the -5 to hit, which Sacred Weapon from Devotion Oath DOES cancel out.

[Spiritchaser]

If I may ask; what spell were you planning to concentrate on?

[samcifer]

If I may ask; what spell were you planning to concentrate on?

I have a few choices, but most likely either Bless for even more accuracy or Hunter's Mark for extra damage would be my two preferred spells to concentrate on. My goal is to maximize damage and as I've never played this kind of build before and have never used the SCAG's weapon cantrips before, I was wondering if using them would be good or bad to combine with GWM and the +5 CHA to hit from Devotion Oath's Sacred Weapon ability to effectively cancel out the -5 to hit penalty. If they are bad, I'd like to know why as I've only really played ranged casters before and this is my first gish, a play concept that really appeals to me.

[Spiritchaser]

If you go with a devotion paladin then sacred weapon is great but...

It takes your action.

Bless also takes an action, though it could potentially be quickened, which is actually not horrible.

There’s nothing wrong with hunter’s mark, and as a bonus action spell, it nests in nicely, but it’s not on the paladin or sorcerer list, so prepare for some (probably not worth it) additional multiclass shinanigans to get it.

Quickened green flame blade with sacred weapon up and GWM is usually well worth the sorcery points. If you’re going to take quickened (and you probably should) then seriously consider gfb or bb as well.

[samcifer]

If you go with a devotion paladin then sacred weapon is great but...

It takes your action.

Bless also takes an action, though it could potentially be quickened, which is actually not horrible.

There’s nothing wrong with hunter’s mark, and as a bonus action spell, it nests in nicely, but it’s not on the paladin or sorcerer list, so prepare for some (probably not worth it) additional multiclass shinanigans to get it.

Quickened green flame blade with sacred weapon up and GWM is usually well worth the sorcery points. If you’re going to take quickened (and you probably should) then seriously consider gfb or bb as well.

I'm a divine soul sorc, and my mms are quicken and twinned (might go subtle over twinned.)

[Spiritchaser]

I'm a divine soul sorc, and my mms are quicken and twinned (might go subtle over twinned.)

Pick your metamagic to work with the spells you want to take

Just to clarify, I wouldn’t use a weapon cantrip instead of your attack

I’d use it as well as your attack. Quicken gfb or bb and you get the cantrip damage... and the weapon damage, and with sacred weapon (possibly also bless) you’ve a good chance to hit and do 5+10+2d6+(whatever the weapon cantrip gives you at the level in question)

That’s potentially 35 average damage at high level, more with a magic weapon and much more with elemental weapon or holy weapon (which as divine soul, you can take even without leveling far as a paladin)

2 sorcery points seems like a bargain.

Now there are going to be times where AC dictates that you may not want to use GWM even with sacred weapon, but...

[samcifer]

So how would twinning Booming Blade work? Can I get an example of what happens when you do?

[Platypusbill]

Well Sacred Weapon basically cancels out the -5 to hit, leaving me at my base +8 to hit, which I'm looking to increase to +10 to hit, if that means anything. I think you're thinking of the Vengeance Oath's Vow of enmity, which grants advantage to all attack rolls to a single target but does nothing to counter the -5 to hit, which Sacred Weapon from Devotion Oath DOES cancel out.

I meant Sacred Weapon. "Channel Divinity, advantage, or the target having garbage AC" are three separate things. In this case I meant advantage from another source, such as the target being prone.

The point is, using GWM with Booming Blade is only worth it if you have a really high chance to hit. Even with Sacred Weapon, the gains are not significant unless the target has low AC.


So how would twinning Booming Blade work? Can I get an example of what happens when you do?

Essentially you just attack two creatures instead of one. It's pretty limiting, however, in that both of them need to be adjacent to you.