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whisperwind1
2018-10-03, 05:17 PM
Hey all, I'm writing up a Pathfinder adventure for my (10th level) party and i'm having some difficulty really putting its villain together. I already have a firm handle on the concept as well as the story i want to tell, but i'm finding it challenging when it comes to actually figuring out the villain's personality and how they should be realistically. Hopefully you guys can help me out.

The long and short of it is that the villain is a person who for specific reasons, has had a very unlucky and tragic life so far. This has caused the people of the community in which she lives to shun her as cursed, but since they're a town that worships Sarenrae, they aren't outright abusive. However, the fact that most people ignore her and her problems, and no one has really reached out to help, has caused her to despise the town and its legendary folk hero/ patron saint. Basically she is a very unhappy person who blames the townsfolk for their apathy and hypocrisy towards her, and has decided to ruin their lives, and more importantly, the memory of their patron saint. To do this, she's learned magic and become a powerful spellcaster (in secret), and plans to use various methods make the townspeople believe that the ghost of their patron saint is angry at them, and is going around attacking the sinful or destroying property.

My problem is that i want to make this character that's extremely bitter and determined to ease her pain through what she sees as righteous punishment. But she's also an angry, lonely and hurt individual, someone who is fundamentally sympathetic and is the way she is because society DID leave her behind. I have this character that is going to do terrible things to people that don't really deserve such a harsh punishment, but who I still want to make believably redeemable (or at least i don't want the players to kill her outright). I'm struggling with reconciling the fact that she needs to be a person who acts as the villain, but who doesn't come off as an unambiguously monstrous person (I don't usually like running those kinds of villains).

Any advice on how to go about writing this person would be welcome!

Aneurin
2018-10-03, 05:39 PM
Have things she won't do. Maybe there is someone who helped her out. Maybe she won't hurt non-followers of Saranae (who I'm guessing is some kind of deity of charity, or something?), and is only interested in targeting the ones who claim they're righteous and kind and merciful and whatever else, but are actually just being smug and self important. They're set up to fail, and then everyone's told by the "avatar" that they failed because their faith was insufficient - have the wealthy beggar themselves trying to keep up with the whims of a goddess.

You could maybe make your 'villain' only target those involved in the mess, too. A great way to gain sympathy on the part of the PCs is having her pass up opportunities to hurt, or even inconvenience them, so long as they're not actively set to stop her at the time. They're not involved, so she'll try not to hurt them unless they give her no choice - and even then, she'll try to keep it non-lethal. Maybe she only uses non-lethal measures against everyone - not necessarily because your villain is nice and merciful, but because what's the point in winning if the losers don't know it?

Give her a sense of morality, and some quirks outside of just her goals. If she's better off now than before, then maybe there are some things she just indulges in. If she's not, maybe there are some things she just has an irrational hatred of. She's afraid of the dark, so nothing happens at night. She can sleep as much as she wants now she's not desperate to survive, so she tends to go to bed early and get up late - she's not at her best in the mornings. She's careful to preserve things that helped her survive, like Old Man Thing's free-roaming chickens whose eggs she used to steal.


Another possibility is that the situation gets out of hand. Religious zealots, screaming mobs and witch hunts aren't her plan - but after a while they kick off thanks to her efforts and, maybe, she needs some help to stop them...

whisperwind1
2018-10-03, 08:03 PM
Have things she won't do. Maybe there is someone who helped her out. Maybe she won't hurt non-followers of Saranae (who I'm guessing is some kind of deity of charity, or something?), and is only interested in targeting the ones who claim they're righteous and kind and merciful and whatever else, but are actually just being smug and self important. They're set up to fail, and then everyone's told by the "avatar" that they failed because their faith was insufficient - have the wealthy beggar themselves trying to keep up with the whims of a goddess.


I was thinking of having her be mostly non-lethal yeah, although considering that her goal is to cause people to fear and hate their patron saint, as well as their neighbors, she's not really nice either.

Lord Arkon
2018-10-04, 01:06 AM
Don't tell the players how she's treated, let them see it. Let them see one of the townsfolk promise something just get her to go away, then casually break it, because 'promises to a sub human freak aren't real promises' (they may not say it outright, or even admit it to themselves, but that's the underlying sentiment). Let an accident happen before the player's eyes and while any one else gets help (even a wild animal), literally no one cares about helping her (while she she discretely tries to use her magic to save herself, if not her dignity). If the PCs protest this, one of the townsfolk can openly state 'So? It doesn't matter what happens to her.'

If the players talk to her, she says everything is fine (roll her Bluff), and doesn't quite comprehend if they press her on it (someone doing more than going through the motions of civility is alien to her). Her word choices may occasionally let it slip that she's internalized some of the treatment, no longer seeing any value in herself. She might turn to self-harm or substance abuse to deal with her anxiety. She may have a particular hatred of people who wronged her in what were (for her) especially notable instances, and target them for the very worst of her vengeance. Buildings can also be targets of a grudge, and she may be planning to empty and then destroy one she particularly hates.

If it comes to a final battle, she may not have the heart to really kill the PCs, or really care if she lives or not. She may even consider death a relief. Maybe she even makes a morbid joke about her 'worthless life' to the PCs. If she sees a choice to escape with her life, fight the PCs, or watch her final plan destroy the town's beloved statue... she has a bag of her favorite snack ready to really savor the sight, and is willing to share some with the PCs.

Terrorvein
2018-10-04, 01:23 AM
Don't tell the players how she's treated, let them see it. Let them see one of the townsfolk promise something just get her to go away, then casually break it, because 'promises to a sub human freak aren't real promises' (they may not say it outright, or even admit it to themselves, but that's the underlying sentiment). Let an accident happen before the player's eyes and while any one else gets help (even a wild animal), literally no one cares about helping her (while she she discretely tries to use her magic to save herself, if not her dignity). If the PCs protest this, one of the townsfolk can openly state 'So? It doesn't matter what happens to her.'

If the players talk to her, she says everything is fine (roll her Bluff), and doesn't quite comprehend if they press her on it (someone doing more than going through the motions of civility is alien to her). Her word choices may occasionally let it slip that she's internalized some of the treatment, no longer seeing any value in herself. She might turn to self-harm or substance abuse to deal with her anxiety. She may have a particular hatred of people who wronged her in what were (for her) especially notable instances, and target them for the very worst of her vengeance. Buildings can also be targets of a grudge, and she may be planning to empty and then destroy one she particularly hates.

If it comes to a final battle, she may not have the heart to really kill the PCs, or really care if she lives or not. She may even consider death a relief. Maybe she even makes a morbid joke about her 'worthless life' to the PCs. If she sees a choice to escape with her life, fight the PCs, or watch her final plan destroy the town's beloved statue... she has a bag of her favorite snack ready to really savor the sight, and is willing to share some with the PCs.

I was going to reply something similar, but there's no way I can top this. But to boil this excellent answer down into 3 words of wisdom: Show, don't tell.

M. Arillius
2018-10-04, 01:49 AM
Don't tell the players how she's treated, let them see it. Let them see one of the townsfolk promise something just get her to go away, then casually break it, because 'promises to a sub human freak aren't real promises' (they may not say it outright, or even admit it to themselves, but that's the underlying sentiment). Let an accident happen before the player's eyes and while any one else gets help (even a wild animal), literally no one cares about helping her (while she she discretely tries to use her magic to save herself, if not her dignity). If the PCs protest this, one of the townsfolk can openly state 'So? It doesn't matter what happens to her.'

If the players talk to her, she says everything is fine (roll her Bluff), and doesn't quite comprehend if they press her on it (someone doing more than going through the motions of civility is alien to her). Her word choices may occasionally let it slip that she's internalized some of the treatment, no longer seeing any value in herself. She might turn to self-harm or substance abuse to deal with her anxiety. She may have a particular hatred of people who wronged her in what were (for her) especially notable instances, and target them for the very worst of her vengeance. Buildings can also be targets of a grudge, and she may be planning to empty and then destroy one she particularly hates.

If it comes to a final battle, she may not have the heart to really kill the PCs, or really care if she lives or not. She may even consider death a relief. Maybe she even makes a morbid joke about her 'worthless life' to the PCs. If she sees a choice to escape with her life, fight the PCs, or watch her final plan destroy the town's beloved statue... she has a bag of her favorite snack ready to really savor the sight, and is willing to share some with the PCs.

This is useful if you want to out her to the party as the villain right away. A half savy group will know otherwise though.

I have two thoughts myself. Both are showing but in a different way. One is pretty direct. If you want the players to sympathize, put them in her shoes. Before she even has a chance to start her show, have the players screw up, or have her curse them to screw up. Nothing big, but something to really get the town side eyeing them and treating them with condescending attitudes. 'Oh, yes, your nice, but we really don't want you coming int this tavern. You see... uh... you might make the families that come here uncomfortable.' Not overtly mean or cruel, but subtle jabs at who they are. Then the spirit stuff happens and well these people are jerks but they gotta stick around and help... only the townspeople start blaming them for not fixing it sooner, or for causing it to happen to begin with, and slowly the PC's start to really like this town full of not holy then though hypocrites, even if nothing the town has done is that big a deal.

Combined with the idea below it can really work to make her seem sympathetic.

My suggestion is be a bit a more subtle about the crap she's gone through. Instead of having them witness what they did to her, have them hear offhandedly that their children aren't allowed in that part of the town because it's old or something. Or have there be a few people like her in or near the town as red herrings. Let the players see what they do to people like her, maybe even hint at the idea that it used to be even worse before X happened. Or...

Have her fake her death so as to throw off suspicion (maybe she takes half a dozen people out in a 'blaze' and they were the worst offenders, like real jerks who didn't care about Sarenrae. Just because a town worships a good goddess doesn't mean everyone in it is Good or Neutral.) Then you can be a lot more open about peoples disdain for her. Maybe they outright blame her, even going on record as saying 'Well, they were a bit rough with her sometimes, but it's still no excuse what she did. Good thing she died with them.' Have there be stories or anecdotes they here instead. Show isn't always literally having things right before you.

Prejudice can be subtle. Her home is burned down, despite the fact that the fire was at a tavern, because after her death someone thought it was okay to do that. She lived on the outskirts, away from the others, and the place was a wreck even before it burned, so have some of it survive so the PC's can see that 'nope, this place was already falling apart, the fire just finished the job.' And if hers is the only home like that... Have there be stories from a local chicken farmer about how she used to steal eggs from him as a kid, or stories from the pastor who wouldn't let her attend mass because she 'made people uncomfortable'.

And have it all come up... In the background. Make it something small, barely noticeable. They walk by the building on their way to town and everyone calls it an accident. Have the deaths in the tavern (the idea I suggested) be something that happened a while ago so it's old news, but not so old that one of the wives isn't cursing her for 'seducing' her husband and the five others still. Don't give her a grave stone with the others, have hers be outside of town and it be a little ****ty pile of rocks. When they go to the church, have the priest be all pleasant and nice, but they maybe hear a child talking in the background about how that 'weird lady' isn't around anymore. And have it all seeded inside current gossip. Whose cheating on who, whose the town drunk, who might be stealing money or up charging people.

If every fifth rumor they hear is about this lady you want to be the villain and the rumors aren't shotgunned at them you can foreshadow her being this really abused person until you finally show it with something big. After several plans and appearances of this ghostly saint, as a big F U to the town, she has this patron ghost saint 'resurrect' her in front of everyone. Have the town people react with disdain and 'oh why didn't the others get to come back despite being people planning on, at the very least, beating her up'.

Maybe even have her help the PC's and even save the town from something bad after that. She confides in them her secret, that she trained in magic to be someone more then what the people of the town were making her how to be. But now she's helped the PC's, maybe in a reeeaally tough fight, and earned their trust.

Then... tie it in a neat little bow by having her scheme not only to make the town suffer... but to show the heroes what the town is really like. She wants them to work with her. Not to kill, she only killed in self defense after all, but to really show this town what horrible people they really are. And don't do a 'your so much like me thing'. Do a 'You're heroes and I need your help. These people hurt me. Help me.'

She can be really sympathetic, maybe not even a villain at first... But her goal is to hurt people and desecrate a dead saint's memory, neither of whom can really fight back against her. Maybe she starts going to far at this point, maybe the town isn't changing or learning their lesson so her 'lessons' start getting harsher. If the party doesn't know about her then they start looking harder. If they do and you played your cards right, they already helped her once, and she might threaten to reveal that if they don't keep going along. But be careful to make her seem desperate, so that it feels like she doesn't have a choice in the matter.

If you can do it right you can have the PC's hate the town, love her and loathe having to put her down (if that's what they do). Or you can have them like her so much they try and talk her down instead (a rare but cool outcome for games when the PC's use words instead of violence... Though of course after the battle, so they can still have fun with the violence.)

Coventry
2018-10-04, 09:34 PM
In line with the previous comments, how about staging the first story arc like so:


The villainess is not the only one of her "ilk" ... the ones being mistreated by the townsfolk. She was willing to take it, until she noticed that some orphans children were also being treated the way she had been.

That discovery switched her despair to anger.

The PCs encounter the orphans begging for just a few scraps. The PCs note that the townsfolk actively avoid the kids. Genre-savvy PCs may expect the urchins to try to pick pocket them, but nothing is taken. If one of the children is accused of being a thief by a PC, unload on that PC with, "I thought you looked like a nice person ... but you're just like all the others."

After the children leave, have a bartender or some other "respectable" but non-powerful villager express concern, "I saw those children accost you. Are you okay? Did they do anything to you? Do we need to step in, again?"

This may send the PCs right back to the kids to get their stories. This is the perfect opportunity to lay out how the townsfolk have been acting.

The autumn air turns chilly. The kids vanish. Maybe a few at a time, or maybe all at once. Savvy PCs will react as if this is a plot hook, and will investigate. Give them clues which lead to the main villainess. "What, they're missing?" "Huh." "I'm just glad they're gone." "Maybe that old hag outside town took them?"

They find the kids, alive and perfectly well - dressed more warmly than before - because the villainess has taken them in. If the PCs talk to her, she unloads on the failings of the town - "families cross the street rather than walk nearby", "a baker that prefers to throw away bread rather than sell it to me", "a priest that can't be bothered to say a prayer for my dead parents". and so on.

The second story arc begins when the bakery burns down. Then the priest suffers a calamity. Then the "and so on"s do, as well.

Be prepared for the possibility that the players may JOIN this villainess. That story could be just as much fun as one where they act to stop her.