3.5 Core STR Rogue

[retaliation08]

I want to make a STR Rogue using only core (MM, PHB, DMG) and to be played at levels 3-6. Imagine Conan the Barbarian from "Tower of the Elephant" for a rough idea. Basically an athletic, powerful thief.

Rolled stats or 28 pt buy.

My main idea was to use Half-Orc for its darkvision and STR bonus, though it lacks nifty racial abilities.

For feats I'm planning:

1- Improved Initiative
3- Power Attack
6- ? Maybe Quickdraw, Cleave or PBS

I want to max stealth and perception skills to ensure surprise rounds and more early sneak attacks.

I'm looking at Barbarian 2/ Rogue 4 to maximize saves, BaB, and for improved uncanny dodge. The rage will help with early burst damage, empowering full power attacks despite a lower BaB. Armour class will be a bit of an issue while raging.

Does this seem like an effective build for a low op,low magic, mostly Core game?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You'd be better off as a full-blooded orc. A water orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs), if possible. You'd gain a higher Str (and for a water orc, Con), that way, and you'd have better racial stuff, especially if you don't mind the mental penalties.

Use a scimitar two-handed for the high crit rate, with Stunning Fist and a scythe* in reserve for critters you've knocked for a loop (and want to coup de grace), or go for a spiked gauntlet/polearm combo, with Improved Trip for a tripper build. Either way, it might be a good idea to get a permanencied enlarge person.



*Since you're hitting stunned opponents, you shouldn't need Exotic Weapon Proficiency at all.

[AnimeTheCat]

You said "mostly core only", what would be examples of exceptions to the core only restriction? Such as, is anything SRD fair game, or just core (PHB I, DMG, MM I) with case by case exceptions?

[retaliation08]

You said "mostly core only", what would be examples of exceptions to the core only restriction? Such as, is anything SRD fair game, or just core (PHB I, DMG, MM I) with case by case exceptions?

Well, the DM would let me use anything I wanted, but all the other players are very low op, building fighters out of the phb. I want to enjoy a bit of a challenge playing down to their level. And I've always wanted to play a STR rogue.

[bean illus]

28 points: 16, 16, 14 - 8, 10, 8
Half orc: 18, 16, 14 - 6, 10, 6

What's a Str rogue? Low armor, mid bab, ... Well you still need Dex for AC, and Con for HP.
Half orc lets you get a respectable 18 str 16 dex. In exchange you lose half your skill points per level, and -2 to all int and cha skills.

I would consider combat reflexes. I don't know how to trade bab you don't have for PA.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Isn't there a rogue ACF that allows you to trade sneak attack for a bonus to hit? Just trade that to-hit bonus for two-handed Power Attack. You actually do more damage that way, IIRC, and it works against things like undead and constructs.

How do you feel about the psychic rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)?

[retaliation08]

I don't know how to trade bab you don't have for PA.

Barbarian 2/ Rogue 4 is only +1 behind a full BaB progression.


Isn't there a rogue ACF that allows you to trade sneak attack for a bonus to hit? Just trade that to-hit bonus for two-handed Power Attack. You actually do more damage that way, IIRC, and it works against things like undead and constructs.

How do you feel about the psychic rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b)?

I've not ever come across such an ACF. I don't mind Psychic Rogue. Have considered playing them in the past, but I'm trying to steer clear of magic or other mysticisms for this character unless it is divine as an RP choice. Also, I'm trying to keep it simple and within core. Not looking to be a powerhouse, just be effective and not die in the first adventuring day.

[flappeercraft]

In UA there is a rogue ACF that gets fighter bonus feats.

Alternatively there is also a fighter ACF that loses feats and gains sneak attack.

There is also the UA Thug fighter ACF that gets you 4 skill points per level, adds a couple skills to your class list and in exchange loses armor proficiency with medium and heavy armors along with the first level bonus feat. Strangely you can mix it with sneak attack fighter and not lose out on skill points.

I would multiclass between a Sneak Attack Thug Fighter and Rogue as a regular Orc. It's barely going out of core and would let you work as beat stick and rogue effectively.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Might want to look through the handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?156350-3-5-The-Rogue-Handbook-A-Fistful-of-d6) at any ACFs and feats that catch your attention. At least make sure you're capable of dealing with things normally immune to sneak attack.

Also, Craven. If you're multiclassing with thug fighter, consider going dungeon crasher, as well? Ping pong, the foe is dead!

[ExLibrisMortis]

There's the City Brawler barbarian (Dragon #349), which gets IUS as bonus feat (and TWF, but only when using unarmed strikes). You lose martial weapons, medium armour, and shields, but what do you care? You're a rogue.

The spirit bear totem ability (Complete Champion) gives you Improved Grab instead of Fast Movement, so that lets you hit stuff (presumably with an unarmed strike) and grapple.

That's all with a single level in barbarian. You can move on by taking levels in rogue. You also want at least 19 strength and 15 dexterity (just about doable with a racial strength bonus and an increase at level 4), to qualify for Multigrab and Greater Multigrab (Savage Species). Don't know them? They're the ones that let you do this without penalty:

The creature [using Improved Grab] has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

The nice thing is that any grappled enemy is automatically denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against creatures it isn't grappling. Well, when you're using Multigrab, the creature clearly isn't grappling you (since you aren't considered grappled--it's a strictly one-way affair), so you get sneak attack damage on your subsequent attacks. Essentially, you grab 'em, hold 'em, and just keep stabbing. It's the strengthiest way for a rogue to get SA damage.

The other good part is that although this build is optimized, the result is pretty low-power, since it mainly works against creatures smaller than you (get enlarge person), is dependent on grappling (not an ideal strategy to begin with), and uses only light weapon attacks (no PA, no charging).

Naturally, a goliath barbarian with Mountain Rage would be ideal for this, though the Dexterity penalty is annoying (you'd actually need 16 str/17 dex for your point-buy, or 17/17 if you want Greater Multigrab at level 3).

[retaliation08]

In UA there is a rogue ACF that gets fighter bonus feats.

Alternatively there is also a fighter ACF that loses feats and gains sneak attack.

There is also the UA Thug fighter ACF that gets you 4 skill points per level, adds a couple skills to your class list and in exchange loses armor proficiency with medium and heavy armors along with the first level bonus feat. Strangely you can mix it with sneak attack fighter and not lose out on skill points.

I would multiclass between a Sneak Attack Thug Fighter and Rogue as a regular Orc. It's barely going out of core and would let you work as beat stick and rogue effectively.

What does Fighter give me that Rogue doesn't besides trading 4 skill points for 2 hitpoints and boosting fort? I'm curious if I'm missing something. I don't think I need feats, which is the only reason I can think to take fighter over barbarian.


If you're multiclassing with thug fighter, consider going dungeon crasher, as well? Ping pong, the foe is dead!

Don't think Dungeoncrasher jives with Thug, which eliminates all bonus feats.

[retaliation08]

There's the City Brawler barbarian (Dragon #349), which gets IUS as bonus feat (and TWF, but only when using unarmed strikes). You lose martial weapons, medium armour, and shields, but what do you care? You're a rogue.

The spirit bear totem ability (Complete Champion) gives you Improved Grab instead of Fast Movement, so that lets you hit stuff (presumably with an unarmed strike) and grapple.

That's all with a single level in barbarian. You can move on by taking levels in rogue. You also want at least 19 strength and 15 dexterity (just about doable with a racial strength bonus and an increase at level 4), to qualify for Multigrab and Greater Multigrab (Savage Species). Don't know them? They're the ones that let you do this without penalty:


The nice thing is that any grappled enemy is automatically denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, but only against creatures it isn't grappling. Well, when you're using Multigrab, the creature clearly isn't grappling you (since you aren't considered grappled--it's a strictly one-way affair), so you get sneak attack damage on your subsequent attacks. Essentially, you grab 'em, hold 'em, and just keep stabbing. It's the strengthiest way for a rogue to get SA damage.

The other good part is that although this build is optimized, the result is pretty low-power, since it mainly works against creatures smaller than you (get enlarge person), is dependent on grappling (not an ideal strategy to begin with), and uses only light weapon attacks (no PA, no charging).

Naturally, a goliath barbarian with Mountain Rage would be ideal for this, though the Dexterity penalty is annoying (you'd actually need 16 str/17 dex for your point-buy, or 17/17 if you want Greater Multigrab at level 3).

Wow this is great! I was thinking about trying a prison-shanking build this morning, but was drawing a blank especially because of how feat intensive it is. It seems like you worked it out without even needing flaws! Goliaths also have both barbarian and rogue substitution levels, which is cool. Thanks for this. I'll chew on it a bit and run it by the DM.

[flappeercraft]

What does Fighter give me that Rogue doesn't besides trading 4 skill points for 2 hitpoints and boosting fort? I'm curious if I'm missing something. I don't think I need feats, which is the only reason I can think to take fighter over barbarian.


It actually helps in many ways such as sneak attack progression and BAB progression on simultaneous. Also Rage makes you fatigued which gets you -2 strength and dexterity until 8 hours of rest which if you become a Half Orc makes you just a stupid human after using it until you rest for 8 hours and the dexterity penalty is not nice for rogues in general either. Essentially it doesn't really mesh well. Essentially what I'm getting out is that Sneak Attack Thug Fighter just mixes better than barbarian with Rogue, unless you go and take for example Whirling Frenzy and use it for even better sneak attacks while flanking.

For example here is a rundown of level 6 character combinations of the three classes.
Rogue 3/Fighter 3:
BAB +5
3d6+3d10 HP
4d6 Sneak Attack
base skill points 60
+4 Fort +4 Ref +2 Will

Rogue 3/Barbarian 3:
BAB +5
3d12+3d6 HP
2d6 Sneak attack
base skill points 60
+4 Fort +4 Ref +2 Will

Rogue 5/Barbarian 1:
BAB +4
5d6+1d12 HP
3d6 Sneak Attack
base skill points 68
+3 Fort +4 Ref +1 Will
Whirling Frenzy 1/day

Rogue 5/Fighter 1:
BAB +4
5d6+1d10
4d6 Sneak attack
base skill points 68
+3 Fort +4 Ref +1 Will

Rogue 4/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1:
BAB +5
4d6+1d10+1d12 HP
3d6 Sneak Attack
base skill points 64
+5 Fort +4 Ref +1 Will
Whirling Frenzy 1/day

If you bother to actually take the stats probably the best two there would be the Rogue 4/Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1 and Sneak attack Thug Fighter 3/Rogue 3. Essentially the fighter levels make it slightly worse at rogue but allow it to fight but the barbarian level makes him abysmally worse at rogue. However if you take the Rogue 4/Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1/Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1 you don't lose sneak attack progression, still get the BAB boost, still get the strength boost from rage and an extra attack and get +1 to reflex instead of to Fort.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Don't think Dungeoncrasher jives with Thug, which eliminates all bonus feats.It eliminates only the 1st fighter bonus feat. Dungeon crasher takes up the 2nd and 6th level bonus feats.

They're quite compatible.

Sneak attack fighter, however...

Also, a couple of levels in swordsage would do amazing things for you. +2d6 sneak attack, and you can (if you want) take a few supernatural-type (not (Su) type) abilities, such as teleportation. This helps with the restrictions on magic items you'll likely have.

[retaliation08]

Also Rage makes you fatigued which gets you -2 strength and dexterity until 8 hours of rest

This is a 5e thing. 3.5 Barbs are only fatigued until the end of the encounter according to the SRD.

Thanks for posting the sample builds. I see what you are saying now. I'll take it into account.

[flappeercraft]

This is a 5e thing. 3.5 Barbs are only fatigued until the end of the encounter according to the SRD.

Thanks for posting the sample builds. I see what you are saying now. I'll take it into account.

Huh I've always played barbarians as having fatigue until the eight hours of rest, I guess I must have missed that line. I actually have never even read the 5e PHB.

[mabriss lethe]

There are also some fun barbarian acfs that make them a bit more roguelike on their own. Trapkiller? I think is the name. It gives you a hilarious version of disable device keyed off of your attack instead of skill. There's also an urban acf from the cityscape enhancement that trades stuff for acrobatic shenanigans. (Not to mention, the ferocity variant, while a bit weaker than normal rage is flat out fun.)

[ericgrau]

No power attack in core with medium BAB. Even with rage. Especially with sneak attack. Your damage per round often goes down or stays the same but with less reliability. In mostly MM/PHB/DMG you'll get more damage from weapon focus, or from whatever you're allowed that isn't core.

From there PHB/MM/DMG feat options are limited. Maybe you want to take up tripping, sundering or riding a horse. But even if you get a horse I wouldn't get all the feats for it, maybe 0 or 1. Maybe an exotic weapon like a spiked chain or bolas. Or a double weapon to combine THF+TWF, but it's really hard to get a good str, dex and con with 28 PB. A composite bow + PBS + rapid shot might be nice for sneak attacks. When you beat something's initiative, it's flat-footed so you can pop it 2-3 times (3 times at level 8). Then you switch to melee. 2 feats is a lot to pay for something you don't use round 2+, but it does gain you a nice chunk of extra damage round 1. Since non-core is still open, maybe it would be better to skip all of this and pick something that's more interesting but not too strong for your group.

Low magic is a big red flag. Often your best option there is to play a caster if allowed, in that other classes can become unplayable without items. If not allowed, then at least your DM got that part right about low magic. It will still be hard to function past level 9 or so though. 3.5 D&D isn't made to function with low gear. But hopefully the campaign won't go too high level.

With only 28 PB I'd be tempted to get medium or heavy armor. Because while dex is nice you need your str and con more.

If you're playing next to low optimizers like PHB-only fighters I'd be careful about using too many major splatbook tricks or you'll way outshine them fast. If you use anything non-core maybe find something that's thematic instead of super powerful. A lot of strong ideas are floating around here, though there are thematic ones too.

[retaliation08]

@ericgrau

Yeah the game is very sword and sorcery with magic largely being mysterious and not working according to the rules when it shows up.

I've never had 1k gold in the game, even at level 5, and all magic loot is roughly randomized. I rolled for a +4 defending greatsword at level 2 once.

After playing a barbarian and a druid in this game, I'm hoping I can make a playable rogue, though the lack of UMD and spells is limiting.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You should talk the other players into looking at the Ancestral Relic and Item Familiar feats. Maybe some of the rest of these, too. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568942-Feats-that-Grant-Scaling-Magic-Items)

[Nifft]

I'll echo the Improved Trip suggestions.

Int 14 is useful for a Rogue; two levels of Fighter are acceptable, or Barbarian if you can have the Improved Trip ACF.

At Rogue 4 / Fighter 2, you'd maybe do something like...

L1 - Combat Expertise
L3 - Improved Trip
L5 - (fighter bonus) Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain
L6 - Power Attack, (fighter bonus) Combat Reflexes

The basic idea would be that you get Sneak Attack damage when an enemy is Prone, so you make your enemies Prone and then stab them. Later, as an advanced technique, you also prevent them from standing up.

[retaliation08]

I'll echo the Improved Trip suggestions.

Int 14 is useful for a Rogue; two levels of Fighter are acceptable, or Barbarian if you can have the Improved Trip ACF.

At Rogue 4 / Fighter 2, you'd maybe do something like...

L1 - Combat Expertise
L3 - Improved Trip
L5 - (fighter bonus) Exotic Weapon Prof: Spiked Chain
L6 - Power Attack, (fighter bonus) Combat Reflexes

The basic idea would be that you get Sneak Attack damage when an enemy is Prone, so you make your enemies Prone and then stab them. Later, as an advanced technique, you also prevent them from standing up.

I've done the whirling barbarian spiked chain tripper in this game already. Looking to rogue for something different. Thanks though.

[Nifft]

I've done the whirling barbarian spiked chain tripper in this game already. Looking to rogue for something different. Thanks though.

Tripping is one of the few nice things that muggles get.

The nice thing about a Rogue Tripper is that you can apply Sneak Attack damage after you inflict Prone.

It's totally possible to do a Rogue Tripper without a spiked chain -- would NOT using a spiked chain make the concept more palatable, or is Improved Trip itself unacceptable?

[Particle_Man]

For flavour, how about Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Orc Double Axe? With Two weapon fighting you could get an extra chance to use sneak attack, and hey, double axe seems pretty barbarianesque. When else would you use this weapon?

It is not high-optimization, but you are specifically not going for that, so lets bring in some flavourful low op stuff that no one uses otherwise! :smallbiggrin:

If you are sticking to light armour, then Spring attack could be hilarious with your extra movement rate.

[retaliation08]

@ nifft

Avoiding spiked chain would be better. I like cmb stuff for martials.

Grapple or feint would be cool too, but decidedly less effective.

[Nifft]

@ nifft

Avoiding spiked chain would be better. I like cmb stuff for martials.

Grapple or feint would be cool too, but decidedly less effective.

How about a Rogue 1 / Barbarian 1-2 / Rogue 2-4 which uses a Guisarme to make trip attacks, and a Spiked Gauntlet for close-range melee attacks -- you prefer to use the Guisarme, but you're not defenseless in close combat.

You want some kind of nice heavy two-handed weapon for Strength damage, and you want Improved Trip so you can apply Sneak Attack on a prone enemy.

Heavy Flail or Halberd might be good if you want a non-Reach weapon.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you have a good Constitution score, the MMIII has the sand blaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?444154-MM3-Sand-Blaster-Exotic-Weapon-Optimization). You wouldn't even need a feat for it.

And getting a Medium sized one lowers the sand volume/weight reqs to 1/8.

[OgresAreCute]

Conversation score

Didn't know the DC scaled off your Diplomacy check :smallamused:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Didn't know the DC scaled off your Diplomacy check :smallamused:Autocorrupt is draining my San score.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I really enjoyed my Goliath Rogue/Barbarian. One of my favorite characters.
Used the racial sub levels (well, some of them; Barb 1 in particular is really fun), UA variant feat rogue, Whirling Frenzy (which you might need DM approval to combine w/ Mountain Rage of Goliath barb 1, but I see no functional reason why they can't stack other than extremely strict rules-reading), Lion Spirit (aka, "pounce") and Wolf (imp. trip) totems, City Brawler....
There's just so much to customize.
Don't settle just for tripping, though. Even more fun is that you qualify for Knockback, combine w/ Shock Trooper to move foes diagonally and go bowling with them into their friends. Pick up Cometary Collision, and you can intercept any big dumb monster's charge w/ your own pounce first, then knockback to send it flying and never get to even fight back. Oh, and Steadfast Boots to do double damage...

Of course there's also Dungeoncrasher Fighter if you want to combine it w/ said build. I didn't see then need for it w/ my build, but...it's there. And if you also do Zhentarim Fighter (no reason not to), there's some synergy w/ Terrifying Rage, Imperious Command feat, etc...

EDIT: My character used a Heavy Flail, I wanted to do something different. It gives a lot of options, and if you're large from Mountain Rage, you don't need a reach weapon as much if not going a Combat Reflexes route. Could trip a foe, step back out of his reach, then disarm w/o the feat and not take an AoO, using the prone modifiers to aid the opposed roll.
Even if you want reach tripping, guisarme + unarmed or armor spikes works fine. No need to spend the feat just to be accused of being cookie-cutter.

[Goaty14]

Why not dip Ranger 2 and get a reason to dump DEX?

[retaliation08]

Why not dip Ranger 2 and get a reason to dump DEX?

I've looked at Ranger dip as an option, but not dumping dex. Dex is important to many of the skills I intend to focus on, as well as ranged combat, initiative, and AC. Ranger 2 gives Combat Style, but neither is one that I care to use. TWF at low levels with low AC for a rogue is a recipe for disaster.

[bean illus]

Hmmm. If we consider trip instead of PA, can we consider monk 2? We might get Passive Way monk from the SRD?

Human: 28 points: 16, 16, 14 - 8, 10, 8

1 R1-2: Imp Initiative, Combat Reflexes, IUS
3 Monk 1: Combat Expertise, OPEN
4 Monk 2: Improved Trip
6 R 3: OPEN

This totally gives what you want, and still leaves room for more. Simple and core.

[retaliation08]

"The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity."

I'm not seeing where making enemies prone helps sneak attack.

[Nifft]

From another thread, here's a Core Str Rogue idea:

Rogue 5 / Assassin 5 / Dragon Disciple 10 - with Improved Unarmed Strike, or Rogue 3 / Monk 2 for the bonus feats if you don't mind being Lawful

Huge bonus to Strength, claw/claw/bite on top of unarmed strike sequence (at only -2 with Multiattack), and a bit of Int-based spellcasting.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

<snip> or Rogue 3 / Monk 2 for the bonus feats if you don't mind being LawfulTwo words for you: chaos monk.

Also, martial monk, because getting high level fighter feats without prereqs is fabu.

[Particle_Man]

From another thread, here's a Core Str Rogue idea:

Rogue 5 / Assassin 5 / Dragon Disciple 10 - with Improved Unarmed Strike, or Rogue 3 / Monk 2 for the bonus feats if you don't mind being Lawful

Huge bonus to Strength, claw/claw/bite on top of unarmed strike sequence (at only -2 with Multiattack), and a bit of Int-based spellcasting.

Cool, but I thought the OP was looking for a character for a campaign that would be levels 3 - 6 only.

[Nifft]

Two words for you: chaos monk.

Also, martial monk, because getting high level fighter feats without prereqs is fabu. Two sad words for you: Core game.


Cool, but I thought the OP was looking for a character for a campaign that would be levels 3 - 6 only. Ah yes, that's a pity. Oh well.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Two sad words for you: Core game.Nah. The title says "Core Strength," so he just needs to do lots of pilates.

[Zaq]

"The character is on the ground. An attacker who is prone has a -4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A defender who is prone gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a -4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.

Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity."

I'm not seeing where making enemies prone helps sneak attack.

You are correct. Merely being prone does not enable SA.

Tripping is still valuable, but it's not a good way of enabling those fistfuls of d6s.

[ericgrau]

I've looked at Ranger dip as an option, but not dumping dex. Dex is important to many of the skills I intend to focus on, as well as ranged combat, initiative, and AC. Ranger 2 gives Combat Style, but neither is one that I care to use. TWF at low levels with low AC for a rogue is a recipe for disaster.
Hence full plate on a build like this. Perhaps even a buckler. At minimum breastplate, but 2-3 less AC hurts a LOT. You only have 28 PB after all. I think str>con>dex. Except dex should be at least 12. You absolutely want all 3, but you need to prioritize. Maybe str>dex>con, but it's really hard to make that work well. You gotta do 80-90% melee. Take side options to be sure, but with minimal resources put towards them. EDIT: Thanks to bean illus I noticed you can get 16/16/14/10/8/8 on 28 PB, so breastplate might actually be better with a 16 dex. That kills improved trip though. Likewise with full plate you can do str 16, con 16, dex 12 and still have 4 points left. Spend your level 4 bump on int 13 if you want improved trip, or get con 14.

Realistically scouting ahead for sneak attack puts you alone and is splitting you from the party and is going to get you killed. How about hiding alongside the party at all times? At least in dungeons. In the wilderness you need to eat a -5 to keep up. That will often net you 1 sneak attack, though effectively 0 if you roll high for initiative anyway. It's a good thing to attempt but not to focus on. So you eat the penalties and so-so dex, and give it a roll. Then that way you're rolling for stealth and for initiative and hopefully at least one of them is high enough. But you aren't putting a lot into it at the expense of your overall effectiveness.

Tumbling is right out. Without a 20+ dex and MW chain shirt/leather it's not reliable at levels 3-6. And the penalty for failure is too severe to attempt it.


You are correct. Merely being prone does not enable SA.

Tripping is still valuable, but it's not a good way of enabling those fistfuls of d6s.
Tripping enables hitting in general from the -4 AC. Plus the usually movement stuff and BFC stuff from tripping. So you'll get a lot more SA damage that way. You have high damage relative to your attack bonus. So hitting more often is great for your damage, more-so than boosting damage per hit. Also it's easier to reposition a flank this way because you can risk AoO's. Even if you could tumble it's only half speed and often won't reach flanking position, while this is full speed.

Though I think realistically most of your sneak attacks will come from round 1, from either hiding or initiative. Keep a backup range weapon in case you can't close to melee in round 1. Round 2+ you may have to rely on str damage and a nice weapon, and only flanking maybe 40% of the time. Though it sounds like you have multiple melee allies which could bump that a bit higher.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Use a lot of debuffs to enable whatever fighting style you want to do. Alchemical items* (gnome calculus is awesome, as are PF dye arrows (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/ammunition/ammunition-bow-arrow-dye/)), flasks of oil/grease, a Medium sized MMIII sand blaster (with well-chosen enhancements, including defending, since you don't need attack bonuses with them anyway), bolas, lassos, tripping (either on your part with a guisarme/gauntlet combo, or on their parts with some hurled contact hallucinogens), and some sneak attack feats (to exchange sneak attack dice to blind, deafen, hobble, etc) can make your life much, much easier.

With such a low point buy, grab some +X defending armor spikes, shield spikes, and gauntlets for some armor stacking.

A quick dip in a spellcasting class will make alchemical crafting possible (and cheap), giving you a lot of return for the investment.


*Poisons are far too expensive, unless you're a shaper using psionic minor creation, so don't bother with them.

[bean illus]

Human: 28 points: 16, 14, 14 - 10, 12, 8

1 R1-2: Imp Initiative, Steadfast Determination (PHbll)
3 Barb 1: Power Attack
4 R3: 2d6 SA
5 Fighter: Combat Reflexes
6 F2: OPEN, OPEN

28 buy, simple core, str based, high bab/dex/initiative/hp, extra skill points, and good access to the 'fighter skills'. Lots of room to grow with 2 OPEN feats.
Might consider holding R3 till after F1 for skill maxing?

Weak will save (+6 F, +3 R, +1 W) is helped by SD.
Level 6 saves with ability bonus: +8F/+6R/+3W.

Combine your +10 speed with a reach weapon to flank from more squares and more opponents. Maybe even charge + pa on surprise flank + 2d6.

You could even add the Improved Trip. Oh, and don't forget ... marbles.

[retaliation08]

Human: 28 points: 16, 14, 14 - 10, 12, 8

1 R1-2: Imp Initiative, Steadfast Determination (PHbll)
3 Barb 1: Power Attack
4 R3: 2d6 SA
5 Fighter: Combat Reflexes
6 F2: OPEN, OPEN

28 buy, simple core, str based, high bab/dex/initiative/hp, extra skill points, and good access to the 'fighter skills'. Lots of room to grow with 2 OPEN feats.
Might consider holding R3 till after F1 for skill maxing?

Weak will save (+6 F, +3 R, +1 W) is helped by SD.
Level 6 saves with ability bonus: +8F/+6R/+3W.

Combine your +10 speed with a reach weapon to flank from more squares and more opponents. Maybe even charge + pa on surprise flank + 2d6.

You could even add the Improved Trip. Oh, and don't forget ... marbles.

I'm leaning toward something like this with half-orc. Probably with a greatsword. I don't think the DM wants to see more reach tripping from me.

[ericgrau]

I'm leaning toward something like this with half-orc. Probably with a greatsword. I don't think the DM wants to see more reach tripping from me.

The greatsword is so common and dull though. What about a glaive for reach and 0.5 more damage than a guisarme? Or better yet a ranseur? Reach, good enough damage, and the total of +6 to disarm (THF+2) means you can effectively use disarm in the rare times that it comes up without blowing a feat on it. Also don't forget to disarm items like spell component pouches, holy symbols, potions, scrolls, etc. Including as part of an attack of opportunity. Hmm, but if you're avoiding reach I suppose you're stuck with greatsword. Greataxe isn't any better nor any less stereotypical and crit/CDG fishing isn't that great on a str rogue.

[retaliation08]

The greatsword is so common and dull though. What about a glaive for reach and 0.5 more damage than a guisarme? Or better yet a ranseur? Reach, good enough damage, and the total of +6 to disarm (THF+2) means you can effectively use disarm in the rare times that it comes up without blowing a feat on it. Also don't forget to disarm items like spell component pouches, holy symbols, potions, scrolls, etc. Including as part of an attack of opportunity. Hmm, but if you're avoiding reach I suppose you're stuck with greatsword. Greataxe isn't any better nor any less stereotypical and crit/CDG fishing isn't that great on a str rogue.

I'd actually be interested in using something like a garrote, but I'm not finding anything I like along those lines in 3.5.

Probably just go 2h when the garrote won't be applicable.

[ericgrau]

I'd actually be interested in using something like a garrote, but I'm not finding anything I like along those lines in 3.5.

Probably just go 2h when the garrote won't be applicable.

Some Googling found it's in Song and Silence, a 3.0 book. Page 86. It's an exotic weapon. It's basically a grapple with a few special rules. It's a little harder to start but deals a little more damage than regular grappling. It is str based and works well if you can prevent the AoO for example by sneaking up (improved grapple won't). With 3 feats required to do it well, it's not that great as a secondary strat. It might be ok on a grapple focused build. Then you'd regular grapple when you can't garrote and you'd only be out 1 extra feat for EWP.

Side note, I don't think the feats for improved grapple, trip, disarm, sunder, etc. are at all required to use those attacks. If the foe is small size, not str based, wielding a light weapon, holding an item, etc. you should totally attempt them without the feat all the time. But I do think if you're going to put in any resources into something you should go all out. Hence why I say no to EWP: garrote.