Spare the Dying [homebrew buff]

[BoxANT]

Spare the Dying, in its current state, is a cantrip that is underrated. Yes, it is does the same effect as a 5gp Healer's kit, and yes you can stabilize someone for free with a good Medicine check, but Spare the Dying is one handed, auto-success, and can be done at range via familiar.

That being said, our group decided it needed a (small) buff. So here it is.


In addition to its current effect, Spare the Dying can instead be cast as a ritual. if cast as a ritual, the target gains 1 hp. Spare the Dying can still only be cast on a creature with 0 hit points.


So basically, one of your friends drops in combat, you Spare the Dying them (1 action), and after combat, instead of burning a spell slot to bring them up, cast Spare the Dying (ritual) to return them to 1 HP, so they can then rest and regain HP via HD.

A small buff, but we found it to be a nice effect that doesn't outperform the Healer feat or Healing Word.

[Theodoxus]

I just let StD grant a hit point on a cast. It emulates rolling a nat 20. No harm, no foul... and let's face it, 5E has over the top healing anyway.

[hymer]

Since you bring up familiars: Let's not forget that some familiars are capable of using a healer's kit, and so make the casting of StD all the more superfluous.

My thinking has been along different lines. Some people find yoyo-healing problematic, and so come up with houserules to make getting knocked down more costly. Spare the Dying could then bypass that problem, in essence remaining as it is. It's everything else that gets nerfed. Two birds with one stone.

[lperkins2]

I just let StD grant a hit point on a cast. It emulates rolling a nat 20. No harm, no foul... and let's face it, 5E has over the top healing anyway.

I find the nat 20 gives +1hp to be a stupid rule. It creates the absurdity that you can wake someone up by shooting them. If they've stabilized, then doing damage to them will make them start 'dying' again, making death saves. Let them make the first death save, then stabilize them. Wash, rinse, repeat, until they roll a 20.

Personally, I drop the nat 20 healing and the nat 1 counting as 2 failures. But yes, StD giving 1hp back doesn't really break anything, and can often move the narrative along faster.

[BoxANT]

I just let StD grant a hit point on a cast. It emulates rolling a nat 20. No harm, no foul... and let's face it, 5E has over the top healing anyway.

Healing Word uses a spell slot, and the Healer feat uses a charge on a healers kit. True that it is low cost, but it is technically a limited resource.

Having that same effect (in battle 1 HP) on an unlimited use cantrip, from our experience, was a bridge-to-far for us (YMMV).


Also, the natural 20 to 1 HP has the same change as a natural 1 (fail two saves), so comes with a risk attached.

[BoxANT]

Since you bring up familiars: Let's not forget that some familiars are capable of using a healer's kit, and so make the casting of StD all the more superfluous.


ever try putting on a band-aid without using your thumbs?

[hymer]

ever try putting on a band-aid without using your thumbs?
Most or all of the familiars warlocks can get via pact of the chain have thumbs, hotshot.

[JackPhoenix]

I find the nat 20 gives +1hp to be a stupid rule. It creates the absurdity that you can wake someone up by shooting them. If they've stabilized, then doing damage to them will make them start 'dying' again, making death saves. Let them make the first death save, then stabilize them. Wash, rinse, repeat, until they roll a 20.

Personally, I drop the nat 20 healing and the nat 1 counting as 2 failures. But yes, StD giving 1hp back doesn't really break anything, and can often move the narrative along faster.

While there's 5% chance it will work, there's also 50% chance they'll die, as attacks against unconscious creatures are automatic critical hits, and cause 2 failed death saves. That first death save is much more likely to kill them than heal them.

[lperkins2]

While there's 5% chance it will work, there's also 50% chance they'll die, as attacks against unconscious creatures are automatic critical hits, and cause 2 failed death saves. That first death save is much more likely to kill them than heal them.

Melee Attacks originating within 5' are automatic critical hits. Hence shoot, not stab. There is the slight risk (5%) that they'll roll a 1, but there's also lots of circumstances with low level parties where that is less than the risk of dying from being left to heal in 1d4 hours.

Also, there is some wiggle room in the PHB section on damage at 0 health. Specifically, the section titled Damage at 0 Hit Points is under the section Death Saving Throws which covers creatures at 0 HP who have not stabilized. In that section, it is specified that damage while at 0 HP counts as a failed death save, and damage from a critical hit counts as 2 death saves. Meanwhile, under the section Stabilizing a Creature, which is a sibling to (rather than a child of) Death Saving Throws, it is specified that it is no longer stable, and starts making death saves again if it takes any damage.

Were one of the two sections subordinate to the other, it would be a pretty clear specific vs general rule. As it is, since 'stops being stable' and 'suffers a death saving throw failure' are not exclusive, you could easily rule that both happen. Or you could just a reasonably say that, since the character is no longer making death saves, the rules under that section are no longer in play, and the rules in the section on stabilized creatures are all that matters.

In either case, a critical hit, or any hit capable of exceeding the characters HP maximum is bad, so I do strongly recommend using a save vs damage cantrip: Sacred Flame has the nice feature that if you do accidentally kill them, the spell will stop working, so you'll know they're dead.

[ad_hoc]

I find the nat 20 gives +1hp to be a stupid rule. It creates the absurdity that you can wake someone up by shooting them. If they've stabilized, then doing damage to them will make them start 'dying' again, making death saves. Let them make the first death save, then stabilize them. Wash, rinse, repeat, until they roll a 20.

Personally, I drop the nat 20 healing and the nat 1 counting as 2 failures. But yes, StD giving 1hp back doesn't really break anything, and can often move the narrative along faster.

The game is simply not written for the extremely small amount of people who seek to abuse rules like this.

If someone proposed such a thing at our table they wouldn't be invited back. That is a much easier way to deal with people like that.

The rule is important, almost necessary. It brings excitement to death saving throws.

As for StD, I could see it giving 1hp and stunning the character until the end of their next turn.

[Aaron Underhand]

I modify spare the dying to be either

cure 1hp
30ft range or
bonus action

Depending on the clerical domain...
Life and nature heal
War bonus action
Tempest ranged
And trickery gets to pick when they select the cantrip...

Healing word, at first level, gets all three...

[BoxANT]

Most or all of the familiars warlocks can get via pact of the chain have thumbs, hotshot.

personally, i find the thought of a poisonous hell spawn (who wants to collect my soul) performing field triage ... highly entertaining

[BoxANT]

I modify spare the dying to be either

cure 1hp
30ft range or
bonus action

Depending on the clerical domain...
Life and nature heal
War bonus action
Tempest ranged
And trickery gets to pick when they select the cantrip...

Healing word, at first level, gets all three...

knowledge cleric walks away mumbling something about how he should of went to wizard school

[ProsecutorGodot]

knowledge cleric walks away mumbling something about how he should of went to wizard school

And then Grave Cleric is sad in a corner because his toy has been given away. I don't think giving it to other cleric subclasses as a ranged bonus action is a good idea.

I think your proposed method is a nice safe way to handle it, I don't think cantrips should ever have the option to restore hitpoints in combat, even if it requires the target to be dying.

[Aaron Underhand]

I did a version for every domain, just away from my notes so only gave examples...

1hp for an action while adjacent isn't game breaking... The healers feat gives the same as part of it's benefits.

[qube]

hmmm ... how about it forces a dying creature to wake up & allows it to push it's body beyond it's normal limits
character is back to 1 hp
until the next short rest, a DC 20 medicine check, or receiving healing, the character's exhaustion level temporarily increases by 1

it both gives it a boost, yet can't be spammed (the 3rd time, the character is practically useless, and the 6th time in a row you actually kill the character)

[R.Shackleford]

When you shoot or stab an ally at 0 HP, it doesn't mean that hit actually is a killing blow.

You could graze them, thus a death save, and they wake up because of mental power or luck... You know, the things that HP are!

HP isn't just meat. It's luck, will the keep going, meat, and all that other jazz.

So it makes perfect sense when you hit a downed ally that they get back up... Like when you see someone slap someone awake after getting knocked the hell out in a fight.

So the rules for death saving throws aren't weird. What's weird is how people refuse to read the rules on what HP is.

[Theodoxus]

I avoid the whole 'hurt them to heal them' aspect by letting PCs (and only PCs) to continue rolling Death Saves once they're stable. Ignoring anything but a nat 20. Yes, it circumvents the whole "you're knocked out for 1d4 hours" rule, but I find that rule absurd anyway.

[R.Shackleford]

I avoid the whole 'hurt them to heal them' aspect by letting PCs (and only PCs) to continue rolling Death Saves once they're stable. Ignoring anything but a nat 20. Yes, it circumvents the whole "you're knocked out for 1d4 hours" rule, but I find that rule absurd anyway.

Dude, I would laugh so hard if you tried to make me roll a death save after im stable. That's just you hating your players at that point and creating a DM versus PC rule.

[hymer]

Dude, I would laugh so hard if you tried to make me roll a death save after im stable. That's just you hating your players at that point and creating a DM versus PC rule.
You might be missing the point. My bold:

I avoid the whole 'hurt them to heal them' aspect by letting PCs (and only PCs) to continue rolling Death Saves once they're stable. Ignoring anything but a nat 20. Yes, it circumvents the whole "you're knocked out for 1d4 hours" rule, but I find that rule absurd anyway.

[lperkins2]

I avoid the whole 'hurt them to heal them' aspect by letting PCs (and only PCs) to continue rolling Death Saves once they're stable. Ignoring anything but a nat 20. Yes, it circumvents the whole "you're knocked out for 1d4 hours" rule, but I find that rule absurd anyway.

That is the other way to bring sanity to the system. I've done it this way before, although I usually turn it into 'you awaken in 1d20 rounds after you stabilize', as that roughly matches up with 'how many rounds before you roll a nat 20', and involves less tedious rolling.

[R.Shackleford]

You might be missing the point. My bold:

My point still stands. If im stable, I'm stable, changing the rules to directly hurt the PCs is a bad time.

[ProsecutorGodot]

My point still stands. If im stable, I'm stable, changing the rules to directly hurt the PCs is a bad time.

You're still misunderstanding the idea Theodoxus proposed entirely.

You're stable, making death saves that only do anything if you roll a natural 20, which then restores you to 1 hitpoint instead of being stable at 0. The rules are being changed to give a benefit to the player.

[Maelynn]

If I were to buff Spare the Dying, I'd probably go with this:

- caster uses StD on downed character
- downed character stabilises and gains 1 temp hp until the start of their own turn
- when their turn starts, the character has to make a death saving throw
- if they succeed, the temp hp stays and they're allowed to get up and use their turn
- if they fail, the temp hp is gone but the character remains stabilised

This way you add a random factor, so it's not too overpowered. And by giving them 1 temp hp until their turn, you actually Spare the Dying by not allowing anyone to crit against them, which I personally feel is a nice touch to the name of the spell.

Only caveat would be that someone else could cast a healing spell on the downed character between the StD and their turn. I'd probably rule that healing spells wouldn't work on that character in that window, just to prevent abuse. Not sure yet, might be too harsh.

[R.Shackleford]

You're still misunderstanding the idea Theodoxus proposed entirely.

You're stable, making death saves that only do anything if you roll a natural 20, which then restores you to 1 hitpoint instead of being stable at 0. The rules are being changed to give a benefit to the player.

No.

I get it, the new rules still punish players for the sake of punishing players.

Not being able to stabalize without rolling a natural 20 is a straight up middle finger to players.

[hymer]

No.

I get it, the new rules still punish players for the sake of punishing players.

Not being able to stabalize without rolling a natural 20 is a straight up middle finger to players.

Let's see... Here's how I parse what Theodoxus is saying:


I avoid the whole 'hurt them to heal them' aspect by letting PCs (and only PCs) to continue rolling Death Saves once they're stable. So after they've gone through the normal routine of stabilize or die, PCs may (he "lets" them) continue to roll. What do those rolls mean, then? Well:


Ignoring anything but a nat 20. So once you're stable, you may to continue to roll until you get a natural 20. If you get one, you wake up with 1hp, because that's what happens when you roll a natural 20 in these circumstances. You do not become unstabilized or overstabilized on other results, because these rolls only count for something if you roll natural 20.

How do you read it, R.Shackleford?

[ProsecutorGodot]

No.

I get it, the new rules still punish players for the sake of punishing players.

Not being able to stabilize without rolling a natural 20 is a straight up middle finger to players.

No, you don't get it.


I avoid the whole 'hurt them to heal them' aspect by letting PCs (and only PCs) to continue rolling Death Saves once they're stable*. Ignoring anything but a nat 20**
* The player is already stable, given the option to continue to make death saves
** The death saves are ignored unless they roll a natural 20

As we're all aware, rolling a natural 20 on a death save gives you 1 hit point. This gives your unconscious but stable friend a chance to get up sooner than 1d4 hours.

I repeat, you are misunderstanding. You do not understand. Your insistence that the idea being proposed is a negative is your own misinterpretation. Your interpretation of this idea is wrong.

Have I said that enough ways to warrant you actually taking a closer look at it, or are you going to continue?

[viaFAMILIAR]

I've always been a fan of opening a perfectly good gamebox and playing as is. These developers spent a great deal of time with the wording of rules, and I think should be appreciated.

*places hand on PHB, "the book is the law."