If the gods need worship to survive, how did they survive before creating mortals?

[rferries]

If the OOTS gods need worship to survive, how did they survive before creating mortals to worship them? Were they in a state of perpetual "hunger" before they had the idea of planting mortal "crops"?

[InvisibleBison]

Your theory sounds reasonable to me, though it's possible that the gods had a supply of whatever resource they need to survive* when they arrived, and thus didn't have any "hunger" issues.

*I'm putting it in such vague terms because Thor doesn't actually specify what it is that the gods need to survive.

[martianmister]

Do they need it to survive? I don't remember anything confirming it so far.

[facw]

Do they need it to survive? I don't remember anything confirming it so far.

In 1141 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) Thor says:
mortals, like you, who can live their lives and in return, generate what we gods need to survive

So they need something, but it's not clear what.

Presumably they had enough of whatever "it" is to survive for a time (or perhaps they previously did not need it). The creation of the first world, and their persistence at creating subsequent worlds may well have been due to this need though. It also may be tied to the fact that there seem not to be any ascended gods from previous worlds (at least that we've seen), they may not have the resources of the original gods to be able to survive an interregnum without mortals while a new world is created.

[The Pilgrim]

The Gods were originally created by another God from another Universe who feed them and provided for them. Until they turned 18 and their parent God told them to hit the road and begin providing for themselves.

[Linneris]

Perhaps time extends infinitely into the past, and the current gods were raised into godhood by mortals from different worlds in the very distant past.

The Dark One came into existence as an ascended mortal, but it might not be the only way. Since the gods are made of ideas, I like to imagine that some cultures may have inadvertently brought up new gods into existence simply by generating a critical mass of worship.

As from what gods need to survive, I think that's clear enough: Soul Power (Rich's own term). The more of it, the more powerful the god is.

[Particle_Man]

Can their exist thoughts without a thinker to think them? If so, perhaps some thoughts formed various entities over (infinite) time, and some of those entities survived long enough to have self-awareness and the ability to "persist" for a time, and a subset of those figured out a way to persist for much longer, via creation of worlds of mortals.

[factotum]

The Gods were originally created by another God from another Universe who feed them and provided for them. Until they turned 18 and their parent God told them to hit the road and begin providing for themselves.

Never thought about it before, but that actually makes sense, despite presumably being a joke! :smallwink:

[Adghar]

If the OOTS gods need worship to survive, how did they survive before creating mortals to worship them? Were they in a state of perpetual "hunger" before they had the idea of planting mortal "crops"?

Turtles.

They emerged from turtles, and subsisted on turtles, until the turtles "ran out" (in reality, it is the gods who are now the turtles.)

It's turtles all the way down.

[martianmister]

Maybe these guys?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0644.html

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe worship is what shapes them into fully sapient entities with personalities. Perhaps without it they become robotic, elemental-like embodiments of their domains; not quite dead but not "alive" as they know it. Though that doesn't fit with how they were depicted as petty and emotional at the dawn of time.

I guess the best answer is that they were just born with built-in "worshiper juice" that gets depleted when they do godly things. How they were born out of nothing is beyond mortal comprehension and forum rules.

[Roland Itiative]

Talking about the origin of gods is always a touchy subject in any mythology, with the first set of gods usually appearing out of nowhere with no explanation given.

So, I would just assume they came into being with enough sustenance to survive for a little while, and either figured out that they needed to make mortals for their continued survival, or knew it from the start, and started making the first world.

[Synesthesy]

The simpler thing is that "survive", for a God, means something different then what it means for mortals.

And as someone pointed out, the Gods work inside the multiverse. Multiverse has another God that works on a different level (as it's a written comic, this is actually the Giant, if you like it this way) that created everything, including the gods of the four pantheons. When they started to exist, they did what they could to get "food": they created the world and populated it with mortals. We can't know how much time has passed, or how they did... it's not important. The important thing is that Gods did create the food they needed to survive as soon as they needed it.

[Fyraltari]

Alright next question: Chick, egg; which was first?

[Caerulea]

The Gods were originally created by another God from another Universe who feed them and provided for them. Until they turned 18 and their parent God told them to hit the road and begin providing for themselves.
I really like this idea, though it just moves the question back a level. They could create themselves after creating the world to generate enough power, as time travel is a thing in d&d (though mortals can not go very far back).


Alright next question: Chick, egg; which was first?
Depends what you call a chicken egg. Is it an egg laid by a chicken, or an egg containing a chicken. If the former, then the chicken came first. If the latter, the egg came first.

[D.One]

Maybe we have two hints about it in Thor's speeches in #1138 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) and #1141 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html):

He says that he (and all the gods, probably) is made of thoughts, and describes himself as a divine singularity.

Maybe in the begining of time, all the possible thoughts floated in the Astral, until some thoughts with similarities started atracting each other until they coalesced into the Outer Planes and the gods. They were born with some level of "thought mass", but they probably spend it to exist, and the way they can replenish themselves is getting more "thought mass", that comes from the faith of mortals with aligned ideals and thoughts.

[Synesthesy]

Alright next question: Chick, egg; which was first?

Evolution theory says that every living being evolved from another.

So, the first chick was born by the first chick egg, made from 2 bird who weren't chick yet. I vote for the egg come first.

[jwhouk]

And lo, the one named Dave said to the one named Gary, "Roll for initiative."

[Fyraltari]

Evolution theory says that every living being evolved from another.

So, the first chick was born by the first chick egg, made from 2 bird who weren't chick yet. I vote for the egg come first.

That's an oversimplification. Animals don't give birth to (or lay eggs of) animals of another species anymore than, say, a latin-speaking parents gave birth to spanish speaking children.

There is no hard boundary between "chick" and "chick ancestor", that's why we will never find a "missing link".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's an oversimplification. Animals don't give birth to (or lay eggs of) animals of another species anymore than, say, a latin-speaking parents gave birth to spanish speaking children.

There is no hard boundary between "chick" and "chick ancestor", that's why we will never find a "missing link".

It's a hypothetical question, and therefore can get a hypothetical answer. On one end, you have clearly protochickens. On the other end, there are chickens. Somewhere in the middle, you can draw a hypothetical line that is crossed.

That said, Caerulea is correct. It is a silly question that depends on how you define "chicken egg". If you define it as "egg laid by chicken", then chicken came first. If you define it as "egg from which a chicken is born", then egg came first.

Grey Wolf

[mjasghar]

The d and d mythology is vague but the impression is cosmic forces of good evil law chaos etc coalesce into beings like primordials
These created some of the structure and living beings which then created more complex planes and beings
Mortals died and their souls drew to and created the outer planes which allowed some of those souls to feed of mortal beliefs
I’ve always had the impression that since the primordials didn’t need worship and were too alien, mortals hero worshipped and thus created their own gods who overthrew the primordials to protect their people/ food source
Then you have second generation gods created by other methods - sexual reproduction between gods and gods raising up mortals. This method certainly exists in OooTS because we have seen a)pregnant fertility goddess b)the elven gods and div

[Cozzer]

Personally, I like the idea that the gods need belief from sentient beings in order to keep being sentient beings, while at the dawn of time they were semi-sentient forces of nature that created things and living beings out of pure instinct.

[Crusher]

It's a hypothetical question, and therefore can get a hypothetical answer. On one end, you have clearly protochickens. On the other end, there are chickens. Somewhere in the middle, you can draw a hypothetical line that is crossed.

A chicken-Rubicon, as it were.

[Gift Jeraff]

Alright next question: Chick, egg; which was first?

It's like a total mystery where it came from, but you want the Egg your Chicken was holding, right?

[Morgaln]

It's a hypothetical question, and therefore can get a hypothetical answer. On one end, you have clearly protochickens. On the other end, there are chickens. Somewhere in the middle, you can draw a hypothetical line that is crossed.

That said, Caerulea is correct. It is a silly question that depends on how you define "chicken egg". If you define it as "egg laid by chicken", then chicken came first. If you define it as "egg from which a chicken is born", then egg came first.

Grey Wolf

You can turn it into a valid question, though: What came first, the animal or the egg? That question asks whether the first egg was laid by an animal, or whether the first egg-laying animal hatched from an egg that had been created by other means. The first answer is far more likely, in this case.
But you can take even further and ask: What came first: the animal or the egg cell? Meaning, did the first animal develop out of an egg cell that got created through other means or are egg cells something lifeforms developed further down the line to procreate? That is a very interesting question that doesn't have an easy answer.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You can turn it into a valid question, though: What came first, the animal or the egg? That question asks whether the first egg was laid by an animal, or whether the first egg-laying animal hatched from an egg that had been created by other means. The first answer is far more likely, in this case.
But you can take even further and ask: What came first: the animal or the egg cell? Meaning, did the first animal develop out of an egg cell that got created through other means or are egg cells something lifeforms developed further down the line to procreate? That is a very interesting question that doesn't have an easy answer.

No, it is still the same question, still hinging exclusively in how you chose to define the words. Because if you really ask that like written, animals capable of reproduction via mitosis predate eggs by several hundred million years, just like eggs predate chicken by several hundred million years. Which inevitably leads to people redefining what they mean by "animal" or "egg" or both.

Grey Wolf

[xroads]

I think the gods are like the mountains formed after the Earth's tectonic plates collide.

We know the outer planes, which are basically pools of similar thought, already existed around the time of the first world. This is because the gods retreated to their respective planes for centuries when the Snarl was snacking on the first world.

So I think the gods are really extensions of the planes they inhabit. Certain "plates" of thought collided eventually forming the gods. The gods are extremely long lived (capable of surviving for centuries without worship). But like the mountains, they can erode over time without worship to sustain them.

[The Pilgrim]

Alright next question: Chick, egg; which was first?


It doesen't matters what came first, Chick or Egg.

The question that really matters is..

Why did the chicken cross the road?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It doesen't matters what came first, Chick or Egg.

The question that really matters is..

Why did the chicken cross the road?

Because he's a scab (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_did_the_chicken_cross_the_road%3F#History).

Grey Wolf

[Tvtyrant]

If the OOTS gods need worship to survive, how did they survive before creating mortals to worship them? Were they in a state of perpetual "hunger" before they had the idea of planting mortal "crops"?

I would assume that when they say "survive" they mean "have the capacity to do things and live." As long as they do nothing at all they don't spend their divine energy, so they were free to float pointlessly in a void for all eternity but once they started to make things they needed a source of energy.

[Morgaln]

No, it is still the same question, still hinging exclusively in how you chose to define the words. Because if you really ask that like written, animals capable of reproduction via mitosis predate eggs by several hundred million years, just like eggs predate chicken by several hundred million years. Which inevitably leads to people redefining what they mean by "animal" or "egg" or both.

Grey Wolf

My definition of "animal" is the regnum of animalia, also called metazoa. The most basal animals (sponges) do produce egg cells, so it is clearly something that was evolved very early. The question on whether the egg predates that phylum and was already present in the protozoa that the animalia evolved from is, to my knowledge, not answered conclusively.

[Darth Paul]

Alright next question: Chick, egg; which was first?

First came the infinite regress.

[Fyraltari]

First came the infinite regress.

May I sig that?

[Particle_Man]

I have heard of cosmologies described as great eggs that hatched. I have not heard of any origin story of the universe that put a chicken in the starring role.


So cosmically, egg comes first. ;)

[Particle_Man]

Interestingly, it looks like Thor (a 2nd generation god if "son of Odin" means anything) was around before the first world was created if the crayon story is correct.

[Fyraltari]

Maybe it's a Silmarillion thing where the gods are created with pre-existing family relations, despite all coming from the same place.

[D.One]

New origin story for the gods of OotSverse:

First, there was nothing
But a small glowing dream
Then came The Great Chickenegg
An egg-shaped, feather-covered, avian being, half chicken, half egg, half celestial, half fiend, who was able to be born before itself
It spoke, and said CUCKOO
And the multiverse trembled at the sound of a banjo and giggles
And for each of its feathers that fell over another feather, gods were born
And all the gods whose feathers touched one another were born brothers and sons and fathers and daughters of the others whose feathers were touched
And then The Chickenegg exploded in infinite threads of reality, becoming the material with what the just born gods molded universes...

[Fyraltari]

Of course ! The feathers that fell in front of the Chickenegg formed the Northern Pantheon, thoes on Its left the Eastern Pantheon, those behind It the Southern Pantheon and those on its right the Western Pantheon.

It all makes sense.

[D.One]

Of course ! The feathers that fell in front of the Chickenegg formed the Northern Pantheon, thoes on Its left the Eastern Pantheon, those behind It the Southern Pantheon and those on its right the Western Pantheon.

It all makes sense.

And the Dark One, when ascended without help, tapped into the feathers that fell under the Chickenegg

[Prinygod]

Gods created the world, but its never been stated they created the planes. So a bunch of ancient outsiders could have unintentionally created the thoughts that formed gods. And the gods created mortals as a sustainable food source. The gods then took over the planes as their homes. This might also explain why the hells seem not too concerned about going against the gods. They don't need the gods to exist, and if the snarl destroys them, the "natives" get to take back over. Don't ask me who created the planes, this is just a theory to how the gods exist with out mortals to sustain them.

[Fyraltari]

And the Dark One, when ascended without help, tapped into the feathers that fell under the Chickenegg

Right, that's why nobody noticed those before!

[DaggerPen]

Because he's a scab (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_did_the_chicken_cross_the_road%3F#History).

Grey Wolf

Oh man, I had no idea about the history here. That's fascinating.

[The Pilgrim]

Oh man, I had no idea about the history here. That's fascinating.

I still prefer to think that the chicken crossed the road to get to the Other Side.