Around what level would you give the Paladin at the table the Holy Avenger weapon?

[D10Raven]

As the title may allude to, I am running a custom game and have a DragonBorn Paladin in the party. They are only lvl 3 right now, but i kind of want to plan ahead and see what i can work with, but unsure when to drop it for him. I am thinking of teasing it every now and then though.

Was thinking somewhere around level's 10-14. Too early? Too late?
My campaign (I hope) goes to 18 or 20.

Would just like the advice of the great DM's out there. What do you normally do for it?

Also, how have you guys thrown it out there? I was thinking of Bahamut's Avatar pulling it out of the Aether for them as a reward for all the good good Paladin-ness he has been doing.

[ciarannihill]

As the title may allude to, I am running a custom game and have a DragonBorn Paladin in the party. They are only lvl 3 right now, but i kind of want to plan ahead and see what i can work with, but unsure when to drop it for him. I am thinking of teasing it every now and then though.

Was thinking somewhere around level's 10-14. Too early? Too late?
My campaign (I hope) goes to 18 or 20.

Would just like the advice of the great DM's out there. What do you normally do for it?

Also, how have you guys thrown it out there? I was thinking of Bahamut's Avatar pulling it out of the Aether for them as a reward for all the good good Paladin-ness he has been doing.

I would say wait to decide until you see if the player wishes to go full bore paladin, multiclass, changes Oath, etc. Or to see if they survive...

Assuming they do, I would only give them the Holy Avenger if it doesn't put them out of pace with the rest of the party and it felt organic to the narrative/adventure at the time. I wouldn't just randomly have it lying around a dungeon unless it makes sense for it to be (like it's an ancient tomb of an order of Paladins that has since been overtaken by monsters -- by liberating it the Paladin gains access to the legacy of the order, including the Holy Avenger).

Level 14 isn't necessarily too early, but make sure you factor it into your encounters from that point forward to continue to be able to challenge the players.

Good luck! :smallbiggrin:

[iTreeby]

Check out page 135 of the DMG. It suggests giving legendary items to characters who are level 17 or higher.

[mephnick]

I'd throw one, yes one, somewhere in my universe and if they find it they can have it

EDIT: Regardless of level

[ErHo]

Make it a quest to free one from badguy/stone/demi-plane/sunken temple, etc.

Make him earn it, at least 10th level IMO. It wouldnt be the first time a low level person has an artifact(Dragon Slayer movie from 1982, King Arthur, etc.)

[Lonely Tylenol]

I’d gate it behind a dungeon of a particular difficulty, and they can get it when they can get it. Depending on their level of preparation and group cohesion, it could be level 12, or it could be level 16.

[Sigreid]

I'm partial to not focusing on level too much and having their own sword become one in a moment of true heroism when it will mean the difference between victory and defeat.

And that's how they would be created.

[ciarannihill]

I’d gate it behind a dungeon of a particular difficulty, and they can get it when they can get it. Depending on their level of preparation and group cohesion, it could be level 12, or it could be level 16.

This can be an interesting way of doing stuff if your campaign is super sandbox-y, pepper rumors of a dungeon containing mighty treasures, but which is very perilous -- the kind that sane adventurers would not go near, why risk your life for a rumor?
Make a point of talking about how mighty adventurers have tried and failed to conquer the dungeon in question, if the party has a high level NPC who's a retired or inactive adventurer make this dungeon the thing that took them out of commission so the party understands this isn't something they can handle just yet, but it plants the seed of it for later on and makes the world feel more expansive than it otherwise would.

[D10Raven]

I'm partial to not focusing on level too much and having their own sword become one in a moment of true heroism when it will mean the difference between victory and defeat.

And that's how they would be created.


Wow. I actually really like this idea!! i have never actually given much thought about HOW they could be created. But i like that! interesting idea friend! Thank you so much!

[D10Raven]

Wow thank you guys for all the ideas and possibilities!! I know i shouldn't be thinking in terms of lvl and level items but i didn't want to throw artifacts around (i know the holy avenger isnt an artifact but it might as well be with how strong it is) and then get screwed by monsters getting WRECKED just because the paladin is running around with a god sword! Ya know.

Lots to think about with this. I like it.

[ErHo]

Sounds like you need an anti paladin with an Unholy Avenger to match as your BBEG

[Unoriginal]

Gotta remember that it's not just any magic sword. It's legendary, so you could make it part of the legends and rumors of your world.

Like, in a tavern, a musician sings the story of the hero Grandlin, who wielded a "sword of justice, and a shield of fire".

Later, the PCs need to talk with a collector of magic items. When the group enter their office, they're discussing with an underling over a map, talking about their agents couldn't reach "the battlefield", with the underling commenting that it's not surprising "given how much Baphomet destroyed those tunnels".

Later still, they arrives in a big city, and on the public place there is a statue dedicated to "Granlin, who fought Baphomet for the sake of us all".

And keep adding hints, in moments that are unconnected between them but who all have a link to the same events/places/persons, who can lead to the other points, until maybe they can locate where the Holy Avenger is.

Of course, don't make the Paladin "the main character" for this. If there's a bard, they can have colleagues teach them new songs and stories, or the latest rumors, about the legendary item. If there is someone with the Criminal background, maybe their contacts can mention something. If there is a Cleric, have them invited to a debate by scholars of their deity's church about the nature of one of the events described in Granlin's legend, etc.

[Angelalex242]

Alternatively, a mighty Solar is hanging out with a Holy Avenger thrust into a stone, King Arthur style. The Paladin must go through a bunch of trials (ideally by himself) to prove himself worthy. And for the record, only one of those trials (or possibly none) should involve rolling a dice. Proving yourself worthy to a Solar isn't a thing you can roll for, after all. They're beyond dice rolls.

[guachi]

My last campaign the PCs went through X2 Castle Amber. At the end the PCs get one random useful magic item. Putting a twist, I had the PCs prepare, in advance, a list of 20 magic items they wanted (I had the 4 volume set of all magic items that was published during 2e in the '90s to help the PCs find obscure stuff)

The only rule was no artifacts. The PCs were level 6-7 when the adventure was over. The 6th level paladin had a holy avenger as one of her 20 choices and randomly rolled it.

She wasn't optimized as a PC (16 Str, defensive fighting style) so its effect was less than it might otherwise be. However, because the effect is quite straightforward it's far easier to deal with than I would have thought. The real problem, if there was to be one, is the effect on the other PCs. However, because they each made their own list and got to roll themselves I don't think there was as much of that as might otherwise happen. Even counting the fact that her sister playing a wizard got a helm that let her talk to unicorns, which is about as far from a broken item as you can get.

The ring of rapid regeneration her mother rolled was by far more of an issue. Though we ended up playing that more for laughs consider all the situations we ended up putting her in that she couldn't die from.

[Sigreid]

On the power, I wouldn't worry that much. It's a cool and thematic item, but looking at it it isn't anywhere near the game changer it was in AD&D.

[Kadesh]

White Plume Mountain spoilers

gives a party 3 Legendary weapons at level 8. This is balanced by the end encounter with 2-4 Efreet (and their conjured fire elemental pets potentially) hemmed in by a Wall of Force preventing them from leaving.

The weapon is pretty powerful. Perhaps drop the bonus to +1 for every part 5-6 levels the wielder has to ease balance slightly.

[Tanarii]

IMO it's only appropriate to hand out 100% chance to find as an epic quest to find one right before the campaign ending adventure.

Why? Because of the DMG guidelines on chance of finding one in a treasure hoard.

Using the DMG:
DMG random rolling it's on table I, with a 3% chance.

At levels 11-16, you should find 12 treasure hoards. With a 7% chance each of a single roll on table I. The party's chance of finding a Holy Avenger at all in Tier 2 is thus around 1%.

At levels 17-20, you should find 8 treasure hoards. With a 20% chance each of 1d4 rolls on table I. The party's chance of finding a Holy Avenger by the end of Tier 3 is around 6%.

[Pex]

Make it a quest to free one from badguy/stone/demi-plane/sunken temple, etc.

Make him earn it, at least 10th level IMO. It wouldnt be the first time a low level person has an artifact(Dragon Slayer movie from 1982, King Arthur, etc.)

Earn it, yes, but personally I get bored with the trope it must be liberated from evil clutches. It makes sense in that the previous owner was killed in the location, but it would be nice for a change to be given one as a reward.

The previous owner, retired or passes away naturally, gifts it to his successor.

The Pope of the Church specifically crafts one for the PC.

A deity transforms his paladin's sword into one.

From campaign start the Paladin was tasked to collect various things as he completes adventures. After collecting the last item needed he is told he has collected the ingredients necessary for him to craft his own holy avenger. The items aren't necessarily all rare or fantastical. It's good for most to be mundane ordinary things to help prevent the player guessing their purpose. It's the process of completing the quests that imbue them with Righteousness. They are tokens of his endeavors and are only suitable ingredients for his holy avenger because he was the one who completed the tasks.

[Sigreid]

IMO it's only appropriate to hand out 100% chance to find as an epic quest to find one right before the campaign ending adventure.

Why? Because of the DMG guidelines on chance of finding one in a treasure hoard.

Using the DMG:
DMG random rolling it's on table I, with a 3% chance.

At levels 11-16, you should find 12 treasure hoards. With a 7% chance each of a single roll on table I. The party's chance of finding a Holy Avenger at all in Tier 2 is thus around 1%.

At levels 17-20, you should find 8 treasure hoards. With a 20% chance each of 1d4 rolls on table I. The party's chance of finding a Holy Avenger by the end of Tier 3 is around 6%.

I personally would prefer that they get their toys and have ample time to enjoy them. So I'd start giving a chance based on how high I thought the campaign would go. That's just a taste thing though.

[iTreeby]

I could easily see it being a quest item. Bring this to the rightful heir to the throne ( a la oblivion) could be a good way to introduce a character and emphasize their importance to the story. Could also let you test drive the avenger. Could also tempt the paladin, which is always good.

[Tanarii]

I personally would prefer that they get their toys and have ample time to enjoy them. So I'd start giving a chance based on how high I thought the campaign would go. That's just a taste thing though.
That's fine. Point is, to be aware you're giving them a major power boost compared to the expected, which is only a small chance in the first place, all of which is (realistically) at level 17+.

But if you don't care about that, then you don't care about that.

If a campaign is ending significantly earlier than that, that amount of power only makes sense to me as an epic tool for the epic ending of the campaign, helping to make it epic. Not as a mundane daily use tool, so to speak.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I gave it to my party at level 6.

The problem is that there was no paladin.

It came with a golden magical armor full with holy marks inside a hydra(9 heads) I made stronger(she also hade 8 skeletons archer and 4 melee skeletons).


It was for lore and lore only.

[ad_hoc]

The Holy Avenger is not a class feature.

No magic items are.

Personally, I think it takes away from the game to treat them as such.

Magic items should be special.

It is possible to find a very powerful magic weapon as early as level 3 in Curse of Strahd. It probably won't happen and the PCs still need to solve the riddle so it is special. Point is, the game doesn't break when they do.

[Laserlight]

DM "Start at level one. You can pick any magic item to start with."
Other Player "Any item? A Holy Avenger?"
DM "Yep"
Me "An L1 with... That sounds like someone who really wants to get mugged."
DM <grin >
Me "Yeah, I will take Elven Boots, please."

[Droodicus]

Could always have the party beat an oath breaker wielding an unholy avenger. The sword is semi sentient and the paladin must engage in a battle of wills to bring it back to the light.

mechanically it can work as a normal sword which counts as magical. Then slowly unlock powers as they bend it to their will. That way you can adjust it's power as needed.

[lordarkness]

Another option is for obtaining the sword to be a choice.

Perhaps the paladin can take it from a temple or a deity or perhaps another being (demon?) will turn his sword into one with very strict conditions such as one or more of the following:


paladin must use it to pursue a specific BBEG to the ends of the world if need be
paladin must use it to pursue a specific series of quests
paladin must be willing to fight [any evil/specific cult/undead/etc] to the death, never surrendering
paladin must never ignore injustice or even minor wrongs or evils
open ended quest such as to find and free 5 undetermined victims of major injustice, inspire the people of 3 evil cities to revolt, free 4 bound angels (or demons if it was granted by a demon who secretly wants his generals back)
You get the idea


The paladin can always refuse outright or put off accepting it for later.

[R.Shackleford]

Don't give the paladin a new weapon.

Have their existing weapon become the Holy Avenger.

Have the Paladin dream of having the Holy Avenger. Work it where you don't tell them it's a dream at first. The Paladin is told that they wake up and the other PCs are dead/severely injured (do some dice rolling to sell it) and there are undead surrounding them. Actually have the player fight the undead in the dream with the full capabilities of the HA... Give them a taste of what they could be (like they do with Zero in Mega Man X). When thebpaladin makes their first attack, really sell the Holy Avenger and make sure they know that the weapon they have **is** the Holy Avenger.

At the end of the dream have a distinct NPC show themselves. Have it be a one armed beggar or some other distinct NPC.

I would do a series of questions, that get morally tougher as the player gets to a higher level. Have it where there is no wrong answer, just how they got to that answer be the right/wrong answer. The trolley problem would be a good example of this. The answer isn't what the NPC is looking for, but the reasoning behind it. Think Final Fantasy IX's Rahmu.

Each correct reasoning allows the player to gain a property of the holy avenger.

* Magic Damage
* Undead Takes +2d10 radiant damage
* +1 to attack/damage
* +2 to attack/damage
* +3 to attack/damage
* Aura Ability


Do something cool for the other players too!

[Whit]

1. I would say 12-14. If your going to 20.
2. It should be treasure of a big boss etc
3. U better give equivalent to each other player. Otherwise it’s unfair. And that doesn’t mean a +x for a fighter. I mean something special.
Paladin will always want the holy avenger
Wizard etc a staff magi
So you need something equal for the barbarian cleric fighter ranger rogue etc and not just a basic +3 weapon. Which is blah.

[Tanarii]

So you need something equal for the barbarian cleric fighter ranger rogue etc and not just a basic +3 weapon. Which is blah.Weapon +3:
3% by the end of T2 (level 10)
+18% by the end of T3 (level 16)
+12% by the end of T4 (level 20)

Totally blah. I mean yeah, in comparison to a Legendary weapon that has about a 7% chance of finding by level 20 ...

[R.Shackleford]

Weapon +3:
3% by the end of T2 (level 10)
+18% by the end of T3 (level 16)
+12% by the end of T4 (level 20)

Totally blah. I mean yeah, in comparison to a Legendary weapon that has about a 7% chance of finding by level 20 ...

Blah is the fact that pure numbers are boring. Especially when HA get those same base numbers PLUS other features.

Though, if you work it right, even basic numbers can be fun... But still isn't equal to Holy Avenger.

You could give the Fighter a Defender, maybe even allow you to give the AC bonus to allies within reach of the weapon as I feel the HA is a bit stronger of a weapon than the Defender.

[Mortis_Elrod]

if you're handing out holy avengers make sure to give out other really cool things to the rest of the party.

personally for weapon's i would suggest making custom things. Pay attention to how your party does things in combat, what kind of options would they enjoy to be available for them.

and i would wait till at least halfway through to give such items if they are super powerful. however you could make something less powerful numbers wise and have it still be very useful for some. All depends on the players. And you shouldn't just hand it over either, make them earn it, and have it entirely possible they don't get it.



Then wait a few levels and make it available to have, but harder to get now, but also stronger. repeat to taste.

[Tanarii]

Blah is the fact that pure numbers are boring.Fair enough to, matter of taste. There are other weapons of the same rarity.


Especially when HA get those same base numbers PLUS other features.
Because they're hirer rarity. That usually (but not always) means more powerful within the context of an adventuring day.

[R.Shackleford]

Fair enough to, matter of taste. There are other weapons of the same rarity.


Because they're hirer rarity. That usually (but not always) means more powerful within the context of an adventuring day.

Then the original point stands. Don't hand out Holy Avenger and a Magic Weapon at the same time.

[Kadesh]

Most weapons in the hands of a Fighter are more lethal In The hands of a Fighter than any other class. A Fighter 19/Paladin 1 gets more out a Holy Avenger's damage dealing than a Paladin 20 ever will. Sure, the 30FT Magic Resist is pretty cool, but the fun bit of combat is proactively doing things.

Give a Monk or a Fighter +1d4 damage, and they'll be happier than If you gave it to a Chain Warlock or a Grave Cleric.

[R.Shackleford]

Most weapons in the hands of a Fighter are more lethal In The hands of a Fighter than any other class. A Fighter 19/Paladin 1 gets more out a Holy Avenger's damage dealing than a Paladin 20 ever will. Sure, the 30FT Magic Resist is pretty cool, but the fun bit of combat is proactively doing things.

Give a Monk or a Fighter +1d4 damage, and they'll be happier than If you gave it to a Chain Warlock or a Grave Cleric.

Killing something that has 100 HP, by doing 200 damage is no different than killing said creature by doing 100 damage.

It doesn't matter if the fighter can do 25%, 50%, or 100% more damage, other classes do enough damage to keep up with the game.

Just handing out numbers to a class that pretty muchbonly get is numbers... When you're handing out Holy Fricken Avengers to others... That's just mean DMing.

[Kadesh]

Killing something that has 100 HP, by doing 200 damage is no different than killing said creature by doing 100 damage.

It doesn't matter if the fighter can do 25%, 50%, or 100% more damage, other classes do enough damage to keep up with the game.

Just handing out numbers to a class that pretty muchbonly get is numbers... When you're handing out Holy Fricken Avengers to others... That's just mean DMing.

I'm a bit st a loss to what you mean. If the class that is only 'just numbers' and then they get a weapon that is just numbers' then they are doing everything their class is designed to do.

If you start stepping on other classes toes, you end up like 3.5 did, where a magic item can obviate a class feature.

A Holy Avenger puts a Paladin on the level of a Fighter when fighting Undead/fiends, but the meat of the Holy Avenger is the save bonus (which at before 17th level is AoE bait, or risking a Dominate getting you smote.

I think that a Flametongue is a fantastic weapon for a Fighter. 4 +2 Attacks even when Immune to the fire damage is not to be sniffed at.

Also, yes, killing a creature even one round earlier is a massive difference to a fight. If an enemy cannot get off their recharge AoE again, like a Dragon, that additional attack can be life or death for the party.

Edit: We have termed it preemptive heing, but YMMV.

(also, custom magic items are awesome, but remember that 8+ Attack Fighters exist and CAN break those that trigger on a hit beyond their scope)

[Tanarii]

A Holy Avenger is a Legendary weapon. Weapons & Armor on par with it include:
Armor of Invulnerability
Armor +3
Defender
Hammer of Thunderbolts
Luck Blade
Staff of the Magi
Sword of Answering
Vorpal Sword

Also a Belt of Storm Giant Strength, Cloak of Invisiblity, Rings of Elemental Command.

If we're going to talk about giving other party members items on par, let's discuss ones on par. Not Flametongues or Weapons +3, which are two and one rarity lower (respectively).

[R.Shackleford]

A Holy Avenger is a Legendary weapon. Weapons & Armor on par with it include:
Armor of Invulnerability
Armor +3
Defender
Hammer of Thunderbolts
Luck Blade
Staff of the Magi
Sword of Answering
Vorpal Sword

Also a Belt of Storm Giant Strength, Cloak of Invisiblity, Rings of Elemental Command.

If we're going to talk about giving other party members items on par, let's discuss ones on par. Not Flametongues or Weapons +3, which are two and one rarity lower (respectively).

That's what was said... I'm not sure why you're trying to make an argument, then say what was already said...

I mean, yes? Make sure to give everyone thingsbon the same level... I guess you agree with what was originally stated?

[Kadesh]

A Holy Avenger is a Legendary weapon. Weapons & Armor on par with it include:
Armor of Invulnerability
Armor +3
Defender
Hammer of Thunderbolts
Luck Blade
Staff of the Magi
Sword of Answering
Vorpal Sword

Also a Belt of Storm Giant Strength, Cloak of Invisiblity, Rings of Elemental Command.

If we're going to talk about giving other party members items on par, let's discuss ones on par. Not Flametongues or Weapons +3, which are two and one rarity lower (respectively).

And a Scroll of Gate and a Candle of Invocation are different Rarities but the same effect. So?

[Theodoric]

Once she becomes Grandmaster of her order. The Paladin in the campaign I'm running hasn't even technically joined her order yet, so that's still a way off.

[ErHo]

Earn it, yes, but personally I get bored with the trope it must be liberated from evil clutches. It makes sense in that the previous owner was killed in the location, but it would be nice for a change to be given one as a reward.

A deity transforms his paladin's sword into one.


Too true, I personally am sold on this one and will work towards this option for my group's pally

[Corran]

I would give it from early on. Soon enough I would use a minor villain to take it forcefully from the paladin, with the minor villain proclaiming that this is his/her master's sword. I would finally give it back if/after the party defeat the death knight who is the original owner of the holy avenger (so around the level when a death knight with or without minions would be a suitable encounter for the party, but even more importantly when it would make sense for me to tie this encounter with the ongoing plot). I would try to make the best out of the minor villain who would be the one that took away the holy avenger in the first place.

[GlenSmash!]

I'd probably have one available pretty early on, but I'd modify it so that the +X part of the Holy Avenger was tied to Proficiency. Specifically +(Prof/2).

It would would still be a very strong weapon, but less so at earlier levels.

[ciarannihill]

I'd probably have one available pretty early on, but I'd modify it so that the +X part of the Holy Avenger was tied to Proficiency. Specifically +(Prof/2).

It would would still be a very strong weapon, but less so at earlier levels.

I quite like this work around -- Instead of simply being a +3 weapon it has "This weapon grants a bonus to attack and damage roles made with it equal to 1/2 it's wielder's proficiency bonus, rounded down." It makes it feel like you keep advancing in unlocking it's power, and allows you to gain access to a kind of "signature weapon" for your character early on without it becoming replaced at later stages due to it being weak by comparison to other weapons.

Hell, I might use this for some homebrew magic items in my current game!

[Zanthy1]

I'm currently a dragonborn paladin and I received my Holy Avenger technically at level 14, but at the end of that session (of which the loot was the second to last thing to get before xp) we leveled up. So I guess level 15 is when I got it.

[Kadesh]

I quite like this work around -- Instead of simply being a +3 weapon it has "This weapon grants a bonus to attack and damage roles made with it equal to 1/2 it's wielder's proficiency bonus, rounded down." It makes it feel like you keep advancing in unlocking it's power, and allows you to gain access to a kind of "signature weapon" for your character early on without it becoming replaced at later stages due to it being weak by comparison to other weapons.

Hell, I might use this for some homebrew magic items in my current game!

This has been used for quite a while in my games. You could also turn the item into a personality, and make a slow, grudging one, who only gives their full +X bonus after a number of rounds on the bearers initiative, or if you hit the same foe repeatedly. Long Drawn out combats can be boring when it is just people slapping at one another, aiding that, while keeping it more balanced.

[GlenSmash!]

I quite like this work around -- Instead of simply being a +3 weapon it has "This weapon grants a bonus to attack and damage roles made with it equal to 1/2 it's wielder's proficiency bonus, rounded down." It makes it feel like you keep advancing in unlocking it's power, and allows you to gain access to a kind of "signature weapon" for your character early on without it becoming replaced at later stages due to it being weak by comparison to other weapons.

Hell, I might use this for some homebrew magic items in my current game!


This has been used for quite a while in my games. You could also turn the item into a personality, and make a slow, grudging one, who only gives their full +X bonus after a number of rounds on the bearers initiative, or if you hit the same foe repeatedly. Long Drawn out combats can be boring when it is just people slapping at one another, aiding that, while keeping it more balanced.

I pretty much ripped it right out of Adventures in Middle-Earth's guidelines for making magic weapons. In there its assumed that weapons are more like Anduril, Sting, Glamdring etc are the only magic weapons you'll find in the game, so making them scale is helpful.

Likewise if the weapon has multiple other magical properties I might have some of them only kick in at later levels too.

[Kadesh]

I pretty much ripped it right out of Adventures in Middle-Earth's guidelines for making magic weapons. In there its assumed that weapons are more like Anduril, Sting, Glamdring etc are the only magic weapons you'll find in the game, so making them scale is helpful.

Likewise if the weapon has multiple other magical properties I might have some of them only kick in at later levels too.

One of my players runs a one shot 1/month, where we can play with new characters of specified level and randomised gear, through randomly picked dungeon packs. Kick in the door, kill the monsters open chest at the end, get a loot roll at the end.

The gear is 'delevelled' with no bonus +X. This allows us to gear using whatever mechanic we want and have available for the next dungeon run, but not feel like we are missing out on cool stuff simply for a +X. The option is to 'Cube' the weapon for a +X if we want. The fighter often does this - the +0 frost brand he was using before got swapped in for a +2 weapon (as a Tier 3 character), and he worked out that he did more damage as a result of the higher to hit from the +X weapon and his 3 attacks.

[Oramac]

I'm partial to not focusing on level too much and having their own sword become one in a moment of true heroism when it will mean the difference between victory and defeat.

And that's how they would be created.


Wow. I actually really like this idea!! i have never actually given much thought about HOW they could be created. But i like that! interesting idea friend! Thank you so much!


Could always have the party beat an oath breaker wielding an unholy avenger. The sword is semi sentient and the paladin must engage in a battle of wills to bring it back to the light.

mechanically it can work as a normal sword which counts as magical. Then slowly unlock powers as they bend it to their will. That way you can adjust it's power as needed.


Too true, I personally am sold on this one and will work towards this option for my group's pally


I quite like this work around -- Instead of simply being a +3 weapon it has "This weapon grants a bonus to attack and damage roles made with it equal to 1/2 it's wielder's proficiency bonus, rounded down." It makes it feel like you keep advancing in unlocking it's power, and allows you to gain access to a kind of "signature weapon" for your character early on without it becoming replaced at later stages due to it being weak by comparison to other weapons.

Hell, I might use this for some homebrew magic items in my current game!

All of these are basically variations of the Vestiges of Divergence (http://criticalrole.wikia.com/wiki/Vestiges_of_the_Divergence). Whether they're inspired by it or not, the vestiges are actually a really good baseline to use in designing this sort of thing for your game. They're all designed to be upgraded via narrative moments rather than level. Seems like the perfect way to introduce a Holy Avenger (or any specifically powerful magic item).

[Toofey]

I have only given holy avengers to parties without paladins, I have been lucky that none of my players immediately scudded their characters and created a paladin.

[Unoriginal]

This thread reminded me that Dragonbait had an Holy Avenger.

[Trampaige]

I have only given holy avengers to parties without paladins, I have been lucky that none of my players immediately scudded their characters and created a paladin.

We discovered one right before or at lvl8 with no paladins. It was also specifically aligned to paladins of Pelor, and none of us even worshiped him.


For some unearthly reason, the rest of the party unanimously agreed that my barbfiendbladelock could not pact weapon it and throw it off the 700 foot high rampart of the underground palace. I just wanted to see what kind of arc it would make, but nobody wanted to play Swordchuck with me. I assured them that I could summon it back any time, but apparently the DM's "joking" suggestion that it could end up sitting on an Archfiend's fireplace when I didn't have it out unsettled the rest of the party.

[Chaosmancer]

I have only given holy avengers to parties without paladins, I have been lucky that none of my players immediately scudded their characters and created a paladin.

A lot of people are making a big deal but... Are they really that powerful?

+3 is big sure, but as someone pointed out, that only makes very rare swords, not legendary.

Bonus damage against fiends and undead? Cool, but not nearly as good as bonus damage all the time though. Plus, 2d8 is decent but not immense by itself.

So, we talking the aura of magic resistance? That's cool, but also a paladin spell and oath ability, so almost repetitive for an ancients paladin.


I'm playing an Ancients paladin right now, and the Holy Avenger is iconic, but it hasn't grabbed my "must have" senses.

[Angelalex242]

A lot of people are making a big deal but... Are they really that powerful?

+3 is big sure, but as someone pointed out, that only makes very rare swords, not legendary.

Bonus damage against fiends and undead? Cool, but not nearly as good as bonus damage all the time though. Plus, 2d8 is decent but not immense by itself.

So, we talking the aura of magic resistance? That's cool, but also a paladin spell and oath ability, so almost repetitive for an ancients paladin.


I'm playing an Ancients paladin right now, and the Holy Avenger is iconic, but it hasn't grabbed my "must have" senses.

Honestly, Ancients Paladins like the Holy Avenger best.

Most of the high level human enemies in Tier 4 are mages of some kind. Combine the HA with Ancients Aura, and those mages are doing 1/4 damage to you and can't get their save or suck spells to land. Which makes them funny looking men in robes that are easily stabbed.

[R.Shackleford]

Honestly, Ancients Paladins like the Holy Avenger best.

Most of the high level human enemies in Tier 4 are mages of some kind. Combine the HA with Ancients Aura, and those mages are doing 1/4 damage to you and can't get their save or suck spells to land. Which makes them funny looking men in robes that are easily stabbed.

What's more is that it isn't just spells that it gives a bonus to saves to.

"Other magical effects"

So pretty much anything that would typically give a saving throw is going to be done with advantage. 5e doesn't have the 3e extraordinary/spell-like/supernatural tags, so we have to go by basic English (something 5e used in its design philosophy).

Think about how many things have magical effects...

[ciarannihill]

So, we talking the aura of magic resistance? That's cool, but also a paladin spell and oath ability, so almost repetitive for an ancients paladin.


I mean it supplements the auras you already give to a hyper-strong level: All saves gets +Cha mod, all saves against magic have advantage and even if a party members fails to save somehow or if the effect does half damage on saves? Your party has resistance so long as their within your auras.

The amount of damage/harm soak you enable with the trifecta is ridiculous, not to mention other effects like Dominate spells and the like that your party now has even better protection against.
You're a one character build blocker for most enemy magic, meaning enemy martial characters are the "scary thing" now...And you have heavy armor to help with that.

[SociopathFriend]

If I'm to believe some of my DnD friends, you should have a +3 weapon at about level 5 because otherwise the DM is being unfair.

[Whit]

Why does it have to be a holy avenger. Does that mean the mage gets staff of the magi a d fighter luck blade or the cleric mace disruption
Or rogue flame tongue or something similar

[ciarannihill]

Why does it have to be a holy avenger. Does that mean the mage gets staff of the magi a d fighter luck blade or the cleric mace disruption
Or rogue flame tongue or something similar

Because the DM wants it to be? Or maybe the player's goal is to get one? Why bother questioning the premise of the topic instead of answering the question posed by the topic?

There's nothing wrong with giving a Paladin a Holy Avenger (an iconic Paladin weapon) eventually as a way of making them feel cool to have stuck it out as a Paladin. The OP is asking how soon is problematic and/or what other ways can one give it while avoiding that situation, why bother questioning their motives behind giving it out at all?

[Chaosmancer]

I mean it supplements the auras you already give to a hyper-strong level: All saves gets +Cha mod, all saves against magic have advantage and even if a party members fails to save somehow or if the effect does half damage on saves? Your party has resistance so long as their within your auras.

The amount of damage/harm soak you enable with the trifecta is ridiculous, not to mention other effects like Dominate spells and the like that your party now has even better protection against.
You're a one character build blocker for most enemy magic, meaning enemy martial characters are the "scary thing" now...And you have heavy armor to help with that.

Okay, I guess I thought the sword was resistance as well, and two versions of resistance don't stack.

I can't say it isn't good but... It is so situational and passive.

I think of something like the oathbow that a rogue/ranger got his hands on once... I guess I'm just not into situationally powerful defensive abilities.

[Tanarii]

If I'm to believe some of my DnD friends, you should have a +3 weapon at about level 5 because otherwise the DM is being unfair.
Lol yeah a lot of folks don't seem to understand how intentionally rare the top tier magic items are designed to be.

OTOH that's why some DMs and Players want them handed out. Because otherwise they'll never see one in play. Same reason some many people start games at higher levels in the first place.

[WilliamHuggins]

Only read the first page of comments, but I wanted to chip in.

It is not a big deal at which level you give the weapon, but will you be able to maintain the balance within the group itself is the more important factor, if the whole party is overpowered, you can always increase the hitpoints of the monsters, increase the number of monsters or even add actions/legendary actions to the monsters during the encounter if you think it is going too easy. I wanted my players to feel more epic in my current campaign,and I knew that was the way they wanted to play, so I gave them some personal items that evolve with the narrative, now that they are level 15 I usually find myself doubling the hitpoints of the BBEGs (I rarely use MM creatures though, mostly homebrewed to fit our style of encounters) and upping the number of henchman BBEGs have with them a little bit over recommended experience.

What you should be more careful about is whether the item will distrupt the power level balance of the party, as it has dire consequences, if you want to give the item early just remember to keep other members of the group rewarded too and increase the encounter difficulty.

[Tanarii]

The two downsides to adjusting the enemies to account for the magic items increase to party power are:
- it goes against 5e design philosophy for magic items, as clearly spelled out in xanathars
- it increases the speed at which the party earns XP, due to higher CR enemies

If you don't care about the first and don't adjust XP to account for difficulty (or don't use XP), these downsides aren't problems.

[R.Shackleford]

You cpuld give a +3 weapon to the party at level 5, just make sure to tell them that spell bonuses to hit or whatever doesn't stack.

I'm not a fan of stacking in 5e.

[Pax_Chi]

I'm partial to not focusing on level too much and having their own sword become one in a moment of true heroism when it will mean the difference between victory and defeat.

And that's how they would be created.

I really like this idea as well, that it's the Paladin who creates the Holy Avenger with an act of true selfless heroism and nobility. Instead of it being something you find or are simply give, it's something you create in a moment of righteousness.

Apologies in advance, but I'm totally stealing this idea for my own campaigns. :smallbiggrin:

[Whit]

Only read the first page of comments, but I wanted to chip in.

It is not a big deal at which level you give the weapon, but will you be able to maintain the balance within the group itself is the more important factor, if the whole party is overpowered, you can always increase the hitpoints of the monsters, increase the number of monsters or even add actions/legendary actions to the monsters during the encounter if you think it is going too easy. I wanted my players to feel more epic in my current campaign,and I knew that was the way they wanted to play, so I gave them some personal items that evolve with the narrative, now that they are level 15 I usually find myself doubling the hitpoints of the BBEGs (I rarely use MM creatures though, mostly homebrewed to fit our style of encounters) and upping the number of henchman BBEGs have with them a little bit over recommended experience.

What you should be more careful about is whether the item will distrupt the power level balance of the party, as it has dire consequences, if you want to give the item early just remember to keep other members of the group rewarded too and increase the encounter difficulty.

Which is exactly why I mentioned what about the other players.
Good points. Don’t ever overpower a player compared to others

[WilliamHuggins]

The two downsides to adjusting the enemies to account for the magic items increase to party power are:
- it goes against 5e design philosophy for magic items, as clearly spelled out in xanathars
- it increases the speed at which the party earns XP, due to higher CR enemies

If you don't care about the first and don't adjust XP to account for difficulty (or don't use XP), these downsides aren't problems.

My players like magic items that change the mechanics of the game, especially when they are playing a mechanically simple class for the flavor of it, so I want to make them enjoy the game while playing the class they thematically like.

As for experience, I do not use it, I go for session based level up, in our current campaign that is close to ending, I made them get to level 5 pretty fast and we started at level 2, after they got their extra attacks and shiny 3rd level spells I slowed down until level 11, after that when I found them reading their higher level abilities with anticipation, I decided it was time to speed up again as they would finish the campaign at level 13-14 if I were to stick to the same speed, this way they will at least see level 17 I think.

[Kadesh]

As a DM I hate changing the mechanics of the game too much.

If someone uses a spell a lot, amplify it's effects. Detect Thoughts? Have a look at the effects of other divination buffs, up to and including Foresight while you are Detecting Thoughts against a specific target.

Armor of Agathys: when you heal HP while this spell is active, regain Temp HP up to maximum granted first.

Two Weapon Fighter: benefits that trigger after hitting with multiple weapons in the same turn

Shield users: additional benefits that trigger in response to having an attack miss you that would have hit you had you not been equipped with a shield.

Etc etc

[Whit]

Bottom line give it around 12. But give equal to each person

[Kadesh]

Bottom line give it around 12. But give equal to each person

Lol ok whit

[Knaight]

Why does it have to be a holy avenger. Does that mean the mage gets staff of the magi a d fighter luck blade or the cleric mace disruption
Or rogue flame tongue or something similar

It's a holy avenger because that's basically the unofficial standard paladin sword. Most other classes don't have that, between being based on broader concepts (Fighter and Rogue being particularly broad) or not being as item focused (Particularly a lot of spell casters, though the staff of the magi as a wizard staff is still one of the stronger thematic ties).

The only other case I can think of that comes close is the Oathbow for Rangers, and even then it's not that close.

[MaxWilson]

As the title may allude to, I am running a custom game and have a DragonBorn Paladin in the party. They are only lvl 3 right now, but i kind of want to plan ahead and see what i can work with, but unsure when to drop it for him. I am thinking of teasing it every now and then though.

Was thinking somewhere around level's 10-14. Too early? Too late?
My campaign (I hope) goes to 18 or 20.

Would just like the advice of the great DM's out there. What do you normally do for it?

Also, how have you guys thrown it out there? I was thinking of Bahamut's Avatar pulling it out of the Aether for them as a reward for all the good good Paladin-ness he has been doing.

Doesn't matter. You could give it to him now and it would work mechanically; or you could drop hints and make him work for it for a while. The main thing is how you want it to fit into the story--you don't want to give it at a time that isn't dramatically appropriate.

But it won't mess up your game even if you do give it now.

[Sigreid]

I really like this idea as well, that it's the Paladin who creates the Holy Avenger with an act of true selfless heroism and nobility. Instead of it being something you find or are simply give, it's something you create in a moment of righteousness.

Apologies in advance, but I'm totally stealing this idea for my own campaigns. :smallbiggrin:

One cannot steal that which is freely given. :smallbiggrin:

[Raimun]

I'd trust my instincts and drop it when it would be cool and make sense within the context the story.

Regardless of any other factors. Too much balance makes for a boring story anyway. And it's not like it's an auto-win button. It's only a shiny and sharp metal stick.

[Whit]

Definitely not as buff as the old one

[Toofey]

so to answer more seriously, I would probably give it when the party entered the top level tier that I planned on the campaign reaching. giving the Paladin time to have fun having it, maybe a short arc where it is lost without it consuming all the time it's an available weapon, and of course, in use for the big boss fight at the end

[furby076]

in the very succesful pathfinder campaign i was in, around level 8 DM gave me an HA. It gradually gained powers (whenever the dm felt it appropriate). By level 20 (we were epic around level 15) it was a
+5 Morphing Flaming Holy Avenger that was sentient and had a slew of abilities (2x day launch that gave 50 flight in straight line, heal 1/day, x2 smite damage vs evil, x2 holy damage vs evil, and a few other things).

Yes it was a godly weapon, but it was an extremely high powered campaign.

The key thing that helps you...make the weapon grow over time. The other players didn't care i had this awesome thing. Each PC had their own thing. Not every player wants a cool weapon or magic item. Some want internal powers, fame, prestige, a pirate ship (our druid had them). So find what makes each player giggle, and gradually get them that

[Tanarii]

My players like magic items that change the mechanics of the game, especially when they are playing a mechanically simple class for the flavor of it, so I want to make them enjoy the game while playing the class they thematically like.Thats cool! And 5e magic item philosophy works pretty well with that.

What it doesn't work well with in secretly increasing difficulty to account for magic items, specifically. Magic items are supposed to feel powerful and special, not needed to deal with the difficulty.

Now if the players are aware that difficulty has been increased, that they are choosing to take on tougher opponents because they know they can handle more with those magic items, that's different. Instead it makes the magic items feel cool and powerful.

Same end balance result. Different approach and different player response.


As for experience, I do not use it, In that case, increased XP reward from tougher encounters isn't a problem. :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

Honestly, Ancients Paladins like the Holy Avenger best.

Most of the high level human enemies in Tier 4 are mages of some kind. Combine the HA with Ancients Aura, and those mages are doing 1/4 damage to you and can't get their save or suck spells to land. Which makes them funny looking men in robes that are easily stabbed.

Wall of Force/Forcecage >>> Holy Avenger. Saves are irrelevant.

[Angelalex242]

Wall of Force/Forcecage >>> Holy Avenger. Saves are irrelevant.

Two brands of Paladin have Misty Step. One has dimension door.