[Legendary Games] Legendary Magus open playtest

[N. Jolly]

*We have been working hard to bring you more Legendary designs for classes. This time it's the Magus that gets some attention. As you'll notice, daily arcane pool points have been replaced with the more dynamic arcane potential, and all basic combat styles are accounted for in the base class through tomes, unique spell books that enhance a certain method of fighting.

The playtest will be open for two weeks, so please let us know what you think!

Legendary Magus Playtest (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Om8pVzsvpYQ_SQCoGP_Y8MWj5FYZ3bAkFhdM7TOe5pg/edit?usp=sharing)

*This isn't my project, but I'm posting the link here as a favor to the authors

[Mairn]

Hey there everyone, I am Mairn/Hal one of the co-writers for this project.

I will be keeping a close eye on this thread to answer any questions or respond to any feedback that may come up.

Hope you enjoy our project :smallsmile:!

[Drifter S.]

Howdy, threw some comments on the doc earlier, and I'd probably try to go down and do a longer post going down everything, but it's kinda late right now, so I might have to save that for sometime tomorrow. I will say, this reminds me a lot of some homebrew I saw someone do, and I genuinely like the direction you're going! As much as Spellstrike is "cool", Magus is probably a lot better off without "get them BIG CRITS" as its main gimmick, and between Tomes and some baseline chassis tweaks, it seems like it opens up way more styles than the looming "Dervish Scimitar Intensified Shocking Grasp" that hangs over everyone's head.

[Mairn]

Howdy, threw some comments on the doc earlier, and I'd probably try to go down and do a longer post going down everything, but it's kinda late right now, so I might have to save that for sometime tomorrow. I will say, this reminds me a lot of some homebrew I saw someone do, and I genuinely like the direction you're going! As much as Spellstrike is "cool", Magus is probably a lot better off without "get them BIG CRITS" as its main gimmick, and between Tomes and some baseline chassis tweaks, it seems like it opens up way more styles than the looming "Dervish Scimitar Intensified Shocking Grasp" that hangs over everyone's head.

Hey Drifter, thanks for the interest!

Yeah, the original draft of the class kept Spellstrike as a core mechanic, but as we went through we realized more and more that it was hamstringing class design in a lot of ways, so we moved it off to an archetype in liue of completely removing it as an option. This allowed us to expand on some cool interactions with other abilities, and let Magus finally cast things that weren't just touch spells round after round.

In regards to your concerns with the Talents provided by the Coiled Viper and War Scholar archetypes, and discussing it with the author of Archetypes of Power and a few other members of the Spheres of Might Development team, I have done the following updates:

October 5th 2018 Update

Coiled Viper
- Coiled Viper is now an Adept practitioner, rather than Proficient.

War Scholar
- This archetype no longer replaces the Armaments of the Magi ability.


Since this was also pointed out in the doc and we didn't think to account for it (oops!) we have updated the Blade of Legend Archetype with the following ability, allowing it to be enhanced with weapon special abilities:
Bonded Blade (Ex): A black blade can be enhanced as though its owner possessed the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. For the purposes of enhancement, the black blade does not follow the normal rules for weapon enhancement. A black blade can only be enhanced with special abilities, and its enhancement bonus to attack and damage is determined by its owners level. Special abilities can be applied to a black blade without first applying a +1 enhancement bonus. It can be enhanced to a maximum modified bonus of +5, and enhancements made to the black blade cost twice as much as a normal weapon. For example, enhancing the blade blade with the bane and corrosive abilities would cost 16,000 gp, the cost of a +2 weapon doubled.


Edit2: Hasnt been another post, but there have been some more edits today yay!

October 6th 2018 Update

Dragon Fang
- Class Skills: Now gains Bluff, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Know (Nature), and Perform as Class Skills.
- Draconic Knowledge: Now gains an additional 2 skill ranks each level to spend on Intelligence skills.

Ruinous Blade
- Scaling for Arcane Strike clarified for Ruinous Blade.
- Legendary Focus added: Granting Combat Casting at 4th level, bonus increasing by +2 at 7th and every 3 levels thereafter.
- Blade of Destruction: The Ruinous Blade no longer provokes attacks of opportunity while casting Energy Blade.
- Ruinous Potential: The Ruionous Blade now gains a point of Arcane Potential by casting any sphere effect, not just destruction sphere effects.

Warp Dervish
- Renamed to Warp Tempest (along with the Warping Dervish ability)
- Warping Tempest: Clarified slightly.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I really like the idea of the tomes, one of the few misgivings about the magus I have, my favorite class, is that it usually sets you into using one-handed weapons. And its an interesting idea to straight-up give the magus Arcane Strike as a replacement for the arcane pool enhancements. I'm not sure how I feel about making the magus cast like an arcanist. The arcane potential fixes up a lot of problems with that, but makes Spell Recall seem a little weird. It seems like its trying to cover the gaps, but it seems like it should be pretty simple to me, just have the magus spend potential to regain a spent spell slot.

[Mairn]

I really like the idea of the tomes, one of the few misgivings about the magus I have, my favorite class, is that it usually sets you into using one-handed weapons. And its an interesting idea to straight-up give the magus Arcane Strike as a replacement for the arcane pool enhancements. I'm not sure how I feel about making the magus cast like an arcanist. The arcane potential fixes up a lot of problems with that, but makes Spell Recall seem a little weird. It seems like its trying to cover the gaps, but it seems like it should be pretty simple to me, just have the magus spend potential to regain a spent spell slot.

The reason I didn't want Spell Recall to just return spent spell slots was twofold:

Firstly, because it encourages you to hoard your Arcane Potential up to its cap and spend it all on spell slots at the end of the fight.
Secondly, because its pretty difficult to balance when the amount of Arcane Potential you can get can vary wildly between two different characters.

Arcanist-style casting will in the majority of cases allow a Legendary Magus to better perform with their spell list than a base-Magus. They have the same number of spells per day, and the way the Legendary Magus allows them to prepare spells means they only need to prepare their damage spells once, rather than dedicating multiple spell slots to a single spell.

Edit: A few more updates tonight:

October 6th 2018 Update 2

Coiled Viper
- Coiled Viper is once again a Proficient practitioner, however it now only trades 5 feats worth of features (arcana gained at 6, 12 and 18, and the legendary magus’ bonus feats gained at levels 8 and 14).

Legendary Kensai
- If the legendary kensai has the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, they may treat their unarmed strike as if it was a chosen weapon, in addition to their normal chosen weapon.

War Scholar
- The amount of features trades for this archetypes Adept practitioning has been reduced to all 6 of the legendary magus' bonus feats, and the legendary magus arcana gained at 15th level.

[Drifter S.]

Alright, here’s the start of attempting to go over the class from start to finish now, with all the bumps in the road my baggage of opinions has. First off I’ll reiterate that I really, REALLY like where you’re going with the class as far as the direction it would go in terms of combat image and flow. Removing spellstrike removes that big hype moment that drew some folks to the class, but makes throwing non-direct-damage spells around more attractive, as now you’re no longer pushed to fish for those FAT CRITS.

The base Chassis for the class looks largely unchanged, Saves and BAB are the same, Class skills at a glance look unchanged, and 4+Int skills per level should be an across-the-board change for every class short of maybe Wizard and Arcanist. Speaking of, Arcanist-style casting feels like a natural change, as it’s one less part of Vancian-style casting for the Magus to be actively fighting against and encourages preparing MANY spells instead of “4 instances of Intensified Shocking Grasp with a trait discount”. Spell combat looks largely unchanged, at least at its base level, though I don’t remember seeing any text about actually even needing a free-hand anymore? Tomes are good, great even. The benefits are a little all over the place but even as-is they all look like solid, viable options, even if some take a while to really come online (coughMagistercough).

Oh wow I’m not even past level 1 yet, technically? Here’s where I start running into a bit of a worry. Arcane Potential looks like a way more engaging feature than an Arcane Pool. I’ll miss Pool Enhancement some, but losing “extra +1’s and keen” isn’t really crippling. HOWEVER, Potential is where I start to run into some worries. Worries that things are really frontloaded. Between Spell Combat, Tome bonus, and now Potential, the Legendary Magus opens swinging around a pretty hefty toolbox, to the point I start to feel like something’s gotta give for sake of perceptions, even if you merely shuffle the levels you get certain things.

On to Potential itself, and whoooo boy it’s big. It’s almost impossible not to have SOMETHING to work with on a round to round basis if you're playing towards the class's strengths. You have as many techniques as a Striker (which this mechanic is clearly based off of) from level 1, while also having way more going for you, to the point the class would STILL be pretty solid (compared to OG Magus) without the Potential Mechanic. The techniques themselves also range from “niche, but good to have just in case” to “aw jeez that’s good”.

I’d go into crazy detail but that’ll have to be put off, so I’ll just throw the techniques into three categories

Not crazy, but could be cut into Arcana instead of baseline to save “design space”: Arcane Deflection, Elemental Alteration, Focused Concentration, Dimensional Jaunt, Modulated Range, Arcane Redoubt, Shifting Position
Solid base abilities: Magician’s Assault, (The +saves portion of) Sorcerous Guard, Hastened Metamagic, Rapid Spell Combat
Questionable a to if it should be an Arcana or cut: (The +touch AC portion of) Sorcerous Guard, Surging Strike


Just to touch, Surging Strike hits two problems. One is the “ALL DAY” meme, potential is pretty easy to get so as long as you keep fighting you’ll never worry about not having it. Second, it applies to every attack you make, so you hit a point where you could be just spamming the hell out of it easily every round. Just Bladed dash in and go to town, no real worry about activation conditions.


That doozy out of the way (for now), the rest of the class is pretty straightforward, at least without going into major detail on Tomes and individual Arcana. Armaments of the Magi is your Spellstrike replacement, and on its own I’d say it’s pretty good. It’s… Probably 3 feats worth of stuff? Compared to how frontloaded Potential is it’s not that bad, but still might be worth looking at spreading it out some. It might also be worth looking into making the increased Penalty from Riving Strike an Arcana, rather than a FCB, but I’m getting ahead of myself

Speaking of Feats, boy howdy do you get a lot of bonus feats. Combat Casting, and all the improvements to it, hit a weird thing where they sssoooort of become redundant, but then not really because of the level limit? 6 bonus feats is in line with Magus’s “sister class”, the Warpriest, but Warpriest also has less going on. Might need to sit in on this part a bit longer.

Spell Recall looks like something that might get some of the “muh daily limits” crowd howling, since it’s basically a per-fight ability to effectively two-for-one a spell if you need it. With how expensive it is, and how many things are crowding for your Potential (even if you pare down the technique list), I think this and improved) is good as-is.

The capstone is a capstone. It’s really powerful, but unlikely to ever actually see play. The flat number bonuses are no problem, but a full-effet Spell Combat as a standard action for no cost makes me raise an eyebrow. Tacking on a Potential cost is a bandaid I suppose?

Looking over this class has turned into a hell of a doozy, and this isn’t even really touching on Tomes or Arcana yet, let alone archetypes, and I don’t know if I’ll be able to get to that this week. Honestly, I don’t feel like I have a good background to speak on balance from, so all I can manage is hopefully comparing against other classes and hope this convinces some folks who’ve got more games under their belt to chime in. With that in mind, I'm gonna echo myself yet again and say I like your direction, but it’s kinda hard to call Legendary Magus anything but frontloaded, and I'm gonna have to think on what to even suggest to combat that.

[Mairn]

Looking over this class has turned into a hell of a doozy, and this isn’t even really touching on Tomes or Arcana yet, let alone archetypes, and I don’t know if I’ll be able to get to that this week. Honestly, I don’t feel like I have a good background to speak on balance from, so all I can manage is hopefully comparing against other classes and hope this convinces some folks who’ve got more games under their belt to chime in. With that in mind, I'm gonna echo myself yet again and say I like your direction, but it’s kinda hard to call Legendary Magus anything but frontloaded, and I'm gonna have to think on what to even suggest to combat that.

I do agree with some of your points, but more specifically I agree that the class is currently a touch frontloaded. My worry is just that shuffling a few things around will make the early levels a bit... boring. Which is normal for Pathfinder classes, its just not something I enjoy.

As far as Armaments being equivalent to (mostly) 3 feats, I feel like its not too much considering the levels you get them (especially compared to spellstrike). At 2nd level, Armaments is +1 Damage and a -2 penalty to saves on hit. Arcane Strike just isn't really worth a feat until 10th level, when compared to other damage-increasing feats.

I could probably see Spell Combat being moved to 2, and Armaments being moved to 3 though. Or the Potential Techniques being broken up by level, like Deeds are. It would just make low level play feel... off, especially with the small number of spells you get at low levels. It would basically force you in to using all of your spell slots on self buffs to have Potential to play with.

[Tariyan Draegr]

I think moving spell combat to 2 and armaments to three is perfectly fine imo

[Drifter S.]

I do agree with some of your points, but more specifically I agree that the class is currently a touch frontloaded. My worry is just that shuffling a few things around will make the early levels a bit... boring. Which is normal for Pathfinder classes, its just not something I enjoy.

As far as Armaments being equivalent to (mostly) 3 feats, I feel like its not too much considering the levels you get them (especially compared to spellstrike). At 2nd level, Armaments is +1 Damage and a -2 penalty to saves on hit. Arcane Strike just isn't really worth a feat until 10th level, when compared to other damage-increasing feats.

I could probably see Spell Combat being moved to 2, and Armaments being moved to 3 though. Or the Potential Techniques being broken up by level, like Deeds are. It would just make low level play feel... off, especially with the small number of spells you get at low levels. It would basically force you in to using all of your spell slots on self buffs to have Potential to play with.

I'm not sure what a good way to spread techniques out would be, but I definitely think they should be reviewed and portioned out somehow to account for how much other stuff you have going on. Delaying Spell Combat and Armaments is probably a good place to start for now, though. Quite frankly, most classes don't hit anything resembling a good level of functionality until at least 3rd level, which is just an unfortunate part of the system it seems.

Something else of note (that I was going to touch on when I got to archetypes, but since we're here anyway) is that Ruinous Blade (and any simple SoP variant you could apply) is a stupid powerful dip as-is, due to the way Spell Combat and such work. That's not your fault per-se, and quite frankly I've over-focused looking at the Spheres stuff too much since I'm still kinda fresh off the Archetypes of Power playtest. Baseline needs to hit a good balance first, the rest should be easier to work in after that.

[DavictheGrey]

The base Chassis for the class looks largely unchanged, Saves and BAB are the same, Class skills at a glance look unchanged, and 4+Int skills per level should be an across-the-board change for every class short of maybe Wizard and Arcanist. Speaking of, Arcanist-style casting feels like a natural change, as it’s one less part of Vancian-style casting for the Magus to be actively fighting against and encourages preparing MANY spells instead of “4 instances of Intensified Shocking Grasp with a trait discount”. Spell combat looks largely unchanged, at least at its base level, though I don’t remember seeing any text about actually even needing a free-hand anymore? Tomes are good, great even. The benefits are a little all over the place but even as-is they all look like solid, viable options, even if some take a while to really come online (coughMagistercough).


Spell Combat still says it must be used with a one-handed weapon as a baseline, but note that each tome that doesn't fit that style calls out that you can use spell combat with the appropriate weapon. This was done to make sure a magus could use the style of their choice without having to go to an archetype like the original magus does. Spell Combat no longer has verbiage comparing it to TWF though, which was done to cut down on confusion and such.

I understand your concern about the class being front loaded and will look into it.

I was the one who wrote the Magister tome. The opening abilities aren't as flashy as the later ones, but don't discount that it gives free Broad Study (which stacks with the arcana). That becomes incredibly useful pretty quick. I'll reevaluate it to see if I can spice it up some more.

[Mairn]

Okay this is my rough idea for a reworking of Legendary Magus' frontloading:


1st Level
Armaments of the Magi: At 1st level, the legendary magus gains Arcane Strike as a bonus feat.
Potential Techniques: At 1st level, the legendary magus gains the following potential techniques:
1 Potential
- Arcane Deflection: The legendary magus can create a miniature projection of force to deflect a single attack targeting them, or an adjacent ally, granting them a +4 circumstance bonus to AC against the attack.
- Focused Concentration: As a swift action, the legendary can select a single creature they can see and gain a +4 bonus to concentration checks against that creature until the beginning of her next turn. This applies to concentration checks as a result of being injured by that creature, affected by its spells, being grappled by that creature, and for casting defensive in that creature’s threatened area.
- Magician’s Assault: For each point of potential the legendary magus spends on this technique, she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to attack and damage rolls made with weapon attacks until the beginning of her next turn.

2 Potential
- Dimensional Jaunt: As part of a move, withdraw, or charge action the legendary magus can step through space, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per 2 potential spent on this technique to a location she can see. This teleportation can be done at any point during the movement. If this ability is used during a charge, the legendary magus can teleport and then choose the target of their charge.
- Surging Strike: The legendary magus uses their potential to cause their Arcane Strike to surge with power. For every 1 point of bonus damage their Arcane Strike would deal, it instead deals 1d6 damage of the same type until the beginning of her next turn, to a maximum of 1d6 + 1d6 per 5 legendary magus levels. Any bonus damage beyond this amount deals its normal damage instead. These additional dice are not multiplied by critical hits, instead when determining the additional damage dealt by a critical hit Arcane Strike’s initial bonus to damage is used. For example, a 5th level legendary magus using this ability with a weapon with a critical modifier of x4 would deal an additional 2d6 damage using this ability on a hit, and an additional 6 damage on a critical hit.

2nd Level
Spell Combat: At 2nd level, the legendary magus gains spell combat etc etc

3rd Level
Armaments of the Magi: At 3rd level, armaments of the magi also grants Riven Strike as a bonus feat, and as long as the legendary magus is in combat, she may activate her Arcane Strike as a free action at the beginning of each turn. When she uses this ability with Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, the bonus on damage rolls for Arcane Strike is multiplied by the number of times (two, three, or four) she rolls damage dice for one of those feats.

8th Level
Potential Techniques: At 8th level, the legendary magus gains the following potential techniques:
1 Potential
- Elemental Alteration: Until the beginning of the legendary magus’ next turn, whenever she deals acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage with an attack or spell, she can choose to deal damage of another of those types instead. This choice must be made before the damage is rolled, and before resistance or immunity is applied.
- Sorcerous Guard: For each point of potential the legendary magus spends on this technique, she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to her Touch AC and saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities until the beginning of her next turn.

2 Potential
- Hastened Metamagic: The legendary magus can add a metamagic feat that she knows to a spell as she casts it without affecting the casting time (though using a higher-level spell slot as normal). She can use this ability to add a metamagic feat to a spell that she prepared using a metamagic feat, although she cannot add the same metamagic feat to a given spell more than once.
- Modulated Range: As part of casting a magus spell, the legendary magus can modulate its range, increasing or decreasing its range by one step. If a spell requires a ranged touch attack and has its range reduced to touch, it now requires a melee touch. If a spell requires a melee touch attack and has its range increased to close, it now requires a ranged touch attack. The steps of range are as follows: Touch -> close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) -> medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) -> long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level). A spell cannot have its range increased beyond long, or reduced beyond touch.
- Rapid Spell Combat: [[NOTE THIS HAS BEEN REDUCED FROM 3 POTENTIAL TO 2 POTENTIAL]] The legendary magus can perform their spell combat as a standard action, casting a single spell and making a single attack with their weapon. This attack counts as an attack made using the attack action for the purposes of feats and abilities, such as the Vital Strike feat. Otherwise, all other benefits and abilities that apply to Spell Combat apply to this ability, such as the -2 penalty to attack rolls.

3 Potential
- Arcane Redoubt: The legendary magus can create a briefly lived wall of force interposed between themselves, or an adjacent ally, and an enemy of their choice. This wall is one inch thick, 5-ft wide, and 5-ft tall. This wall provides the legendary magus, or their ally, with cover from that enemy until the beginning of the legendary magus’ next turn, granting them a +4 bonus to Armor Class and a +2 bonus on Reflex saving throws. If the opponent’s attack misses them by 4 or less, the attack strikes the wall instead. The wall has hardness 10 and 5 hit points per level of the legendary magus. If the shield is destroyed, the wall crumbles away into nothingness. Spells and effects that damage an area deal damage to the wall.
- Shifting Position: As a swift action, the legendary magus can cause their position to shift rapidly between nearby spaces. Until the beginning of her next turn, the legendary magus can treat herself as being in any space adjacent to her when she casts spells, or makes an attack. She is treated as being in the chosen space for all purposes during that action, and then immediately returns to her original space after the action is resolved.


This setup would push back some of the Magus' power (Armaments only gives +1 damage at 1st and costs a swift action, Spell Combat at 2, etc) and reduces the complexity of the low-level Potential Techniques, pushing back the more complicated, powerful, and expensive techniques to higher levels.
Of note, Rapid Spell Combat has its cost reduced due to gaining it at a higher level, reducing some of the benefits of taking SoM talents on a non SoM magus archetype slightly, while still allowing support when such synergies would become less unbalanced.

[Tariyan Draegr]

Okay this is my rough idea for a reworking of Legendary Magus' frontloading:


1st Level
Armaments of the Magi: At 1st level, the legendary magus gains Arcane Strike as a bonus feat.
Potential Techniques: At 1st level, the legendary magus gains the following potential techniques:
1 Potential
- Arcane Deflection: The legendary magus can create a miniature projection of force to deflect a single attack targeting them, or an adjacent ally, granting them a +4 circumstance bonus to AC against the attack.
- Focused Concentration: As a swift action, the legendary can select a single creature they can see and gain a +4 bonus to concentration checks against that creature until the beginning of her next turn. This applies to concentration checks as a result of being injured by that creature, affected by its spells, being grappled by that creature, and for casting defensive in that creature’s threatened area.
- Magician’s Assault: For each point of potential the legendary magus spends on this technique, she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to attack and damage rolls made with weapon attacks until the beginning of her next turn.

2 Potential
- Dimensional Jaunt: As part of a move, withdraw, or charge action the legendary magus can step through space, allowing her to move up to 10 feet per 2 potential spent on this technique to a location she can see. This teleportation can be done at any point during the movement. If this ability is used during a charge, the legendary magus can teleport and then choose the target of their charge.
- Surging Strike: The legendary magus uses their potential to cause their Arcane Strike to surge with power. For every 1 point of bonus damage their Arcane Strike would deal, it instead deals 1d6 damage of the same type until the beginning of her next turn, to a maximum of 1d6 + 1d6 per 5 legendary magus levels. Any bonus damage beyond this amount deals its normal damage instead. These additional dice are not multiplied by critical hits, instead when determining the additional damage dealt by a critical hit Arcane Strike’s initial bonus to damage is used. For example, a 5th level legendary magus using this ability with a weapon with a critical modifier of x4 would deal an additional 2d6 damage using this ability on a hit, and an additional 6 damage on a critical hit.

2nd Level
Spell Combat: At 2nd level, the legendary magus gains spell combat etc etc

3rd Level
Armaments of the Magi: At 3rd level, armaments of the magi also grants Riven Strike as a bonus feat, and as long as the legendary magus is in combat, she may activate her Arcane Strike as a free action at the beginning of each turn. When she uses this ability with Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, or Greater Vital Strike, the bonus on damage rolls for Arcane Strike is multiplied by the number of times (two, three, or four) she rolls damage dice for one of those feats.

8th Level
Potential Techniques: At 8th level, the legendary magus gains the following potential techniques:
1 Potential
- Elemental Alteration: Until the beginning of the legendary magus’ next turn, whenever she deals acid, cold, electricity, or fire damage with an attack or spell, she can choose to deal damage of another of those types instead. This choice must be made before the damage is rolled, and before resistance or immunity is applied.
- Sorcerous Guard: For each point of potential the legendary magus spends on this technique, she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to her Touch AC and saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities until the beginning of her next turn.

2 Potential
- Hastened Metamagic: The legendary magus can add a metamagic feat that she knows to a spell as she casts it without affecting the casting time (though using a higher-level spell slot as normal). She can use this ability to add a metamagic feat to a spell that she prepared using a metamagic feat, although she cannot add the same metamagic feat to a given spell more than once.
- Modulated Range: As part of casting a magus spell, the legendary magus can modulate its range, increasing or decreasing its range by one step. If a spell requires a ranged touch attack and has its range reduced to touch, it now requires a melee touch. If a spell requires a melee touch attack and has its range increased to close, it now requires a ranged touch attack. The steps of range are as follows: Touch -> close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) -> medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) -> long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level). A spell cannot have its range increased beyond long, or reduced beyond touch.
- Rapid Spell Combat: [[NOTE THIS HAS BEEN REDUCED FROM 3 POTENTIAL TO 2 POTENTIAL]] The legendary magus can perform their spell combat as a standard action, casting a single spell and making a single attack with their weapon. This attack counts as an attack made using the attack action for the purposes of feats and abilities, such as the Vital Strike feat. Otherwise, all other benefits and abilities that apply to Spell Combat apply to this ability, such as the -2 penalty to attack rolls.

3 Potential
- Arcane Redoubt: The legendary magus can create a briefly lived wall of force interposed between themselves, or an adjacent ally, and an enemy of their choice. This wall is one inch thick, 5-ft wide, and 5-ft tall. This wall provides the legendary magus, or their ally, with cover from that enemy until the beginning of the legendary magus’ next turn, granting them a +4 bonus to Armor Class and a +2 bonus on Reflex saving throws. If the opponent’s attack misses them by 4 or less, the attack strikes the wall instead. The wall has hardness 10 and 5 hit points per level of the legendary magus. If the shield is destroyed, the wall crumbles away into nothingness. Spells and effects that damage an area deal damage to the wall.
- Shifting Position: As a swift action, the legendary magus can cause their position to shift rapidly between nearby spaces. Until the beginning of her next turn, the legendary magus can treat herself as being in any space adjacent to her when she casts spells, or makes an attack. She is treated as being in the chosen space for all purposes during that action, and then immediately returns to her original space after the action is resolved.


This setup would push back some of the Magus' power (Armaments only gives +1 damage at 1st and costs a swift action, Spell Combat at 2, etc) and reduces the complexity of the low-level Potential Techniques, pushing back the more complicated, powerful, and expensive techniques to higher levels.
Of note, Rapid Spell Combat has its cost reduced due to gaining it at a higher level, reducing some of the benefits of taking SoM talents on a non SoM magus archetype slightly, while still allowing support when such synergies would become less unbalanced.

Hmmmm. I'd be sad to see rapid spell combat be moved up as someone who uses SoM for the most part but the logic seems sound. Do you think it'd be viable to have it and other potential techniques that are higher in power become magus arcana?

EDit: I just saw the new sphere combat option, looks awesome so that covers SoM and SoP stuff very neatly. Given that it exist now for spheres users, I can't find much reason not to not implement the push back in power at all.

[Mairn]

Alright, big update today:

October 8th 2018 Update

Legendary Magus
- Armaments of the Magi: Now gained at 1st level, and has had its abilities split between 1st and 3rd level.
- Spell Combat: Now gained at 2nd level.

- Potential Techniques: Potential Techniques have been split between 1st and 8th level.
- Rapid Spell Combat Technique: Now costs 2 Potential instead of 3. Now counts as a special attack action for the purposes of SoM abilities (you can apply things that modify an attack action, like Lancer's Impale, but not 'Special Attack Action' abilities, like Brutal Strike).

Coiled Viper
- Venom Spells: Now gained at 1st level. DC increase to poisons pushed to 3rd level, now increasing based on CL instead of spell level (to correct SoP synergy granting higher than expected DC increases)
- Spell Attack: Now gained at 2nd level and renamed to Spell Assault. Allows combination with Sphere-based special attacks, but not those granted by feats (no double-Vital Strike with Spell Attack, or casting two spells a round with the feats from Archetypes of Power.)
- Rapid Spell Attack: Now gained at 8th level, costs 2 potential, and is renamed Rapid Spell Assault.

Drakeguard
- Split Spell: Now gained at 8th level.

Hexwielder
- Hexwielder's Blinding: Now gained at 8th level.

Legendary Kensai
- Perfected Reflexes and Iaijutsu Focus: Can now reduce the cost of Rapid Spell Combat to 0.

Ruinous Blade
- Sphere Synergy: Sphere effects can now replace spells cast for any legendary magus ability that calls for magus spells, such as Spell Combat, Spell Strike, or Coiled Viper's Spell Assault.

Spellstriker
- Spellstrike: Now gained at 1st level. Now only grants a bonus attack to a spell cast as part of a standard action. No longer counts as an attack action.
- Striking Combat: 3rd level, allows you to deliver a spell you cast during spell combat with spell strike, applying to an attack made during spell combat rather than adding an additional attack. This means that combined with rapid spell combat, this attack counts as an attack action.
- Greater Spellstrike: Now replaces the 14th level Bonus Feat, rather than the 15th level Magus Arcana. This opens up compatibility with every archetype except Coiled Viper and Warp Tempest (both of which conflict with Armaments of the Magi).

Warp Tempest
- Warping Surge: Now counts as casting a magus spell for the purposes of gaining potential.
- Warp Combat: Now gained at 3rd level.
- Warp Ghost Potential Technique: Now gained at 8th level.


This update served to reduce the frontloading of the class, and to fix some improperly balanced interactions between this class, and a few feats from Spheres books.
This update also serves to rebalance Spellstrike slightly, and open it up to combining it with more archetypes.

[DavictheGrey]

Minor updates to Dragon Fang, First Magus, and added an Arcana for clarity on using special attack actions in Spell Combat.

Dragon Fang: A dragon fang selects an eldritch tome and gains its 1st level ability, but does not gain the tomes abilities at 3rd, 9th, or 15th level. The dragon fang can select the Lesser Expanded Training legendary arcana to gain another tome’s 1st level ability, but cannot select the Expanded Training or Greater Expanded Training legendary arcana. (This allows the Dragon Fang to benefit from multiple weapon fighting styles.
At 1st level, a dragon fang must select an energy type (acid, cold, fire, or electricity). Once this choice has been made it cannot be changed. Whenever the dragon fang casts a spell with an energy descriptor that matches her chosen energy type, that spell deals +1 damage per die rolled. Whenever a dragon fang deals damage with a weapon, she deals an additional amount of damage equal to her Charisma modifier. This damage cannot exceed her dragon fang level until she reaches 5th level and deals the same type of damage as her chosen energy type. (Added energy damage to weapon attacks, gated growth behind level 5 to prevent frontloading.
Dragon's Breath moved from standard action to a swift action. competes evenly with Surging Strike.

First Magus: Class Skills: A first magus adds Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), and Survival to her list of class skills. (Added bonus class skills to fit theme)
Blessing of the Wild: Now allows enhancements to claws to be applied to two natural attacks while polymorphed. While polymorphed at 9th level all natural attacks deal damage as if one size category higher. Increased to 2 sizes higher at 15th level.

Added Arcana to "Legendary Magus and Spheres of Might and Power" sidebar:
Additionally, the following magus arcana becomes available in games using the Spheres of Might and Power subsystems:

Sphere Combat Arcana
Prerequisite(s): Spell combat ability
When taking a full attack action as part of spell combat, a legendary magus may substitute her attacks for a single attack and combine it with her combat sphere abilities. This attack can benefit from the Vital Strike feat, and counts as an attack action for the purposes of combat spheres that modify an attack action (such as the Brutal Strike ability of the BerserkerSoM sphere) but not for the purposes of other feats or abilities that modify an attack action (such as the Spell AttackCotS feat).


These changes should shore up the weaker of the archetypes and provide acceptable solutions for legendary magi who use Spheres.

[Drifter S.]

Alright, finally got around to trying to have a more thorough look at Tomes and Archetypes, rather than just picking at individual things in the gdoc. I don't know how valuable a lot of this is since it's still just opinions with nuggets of balance concerns sprinkled in, but hopefully something can be pulled. Maybe some more folks will get interested as well, to go look things over while the playtest is still live. If I'm going this far, then I probably should go over the Arcana too, but for the most part those looked like they're in a good spot, so I dunno.

Tomes
As a foreward, I worry that some tome abilities are individually overloaded at a given level. Magister letting you use Int for Attack rolls is bonkers good as-is without the addon, as an example. Plus, there’s already a lot of stuff going for Legendary Magus outside of tomes. That said, I’m unsure what you’re using as a measuring stick.

Bulwark
As a base - “Shielded spell knight” is a great image. That’s all there really is to it. This is solid and builds upon shields as a concept, even if that’s mostly to try to compensate for not just going Dex (Reflex, touch). The abilities down the chain are great, especially since it encourages you to stand by allies and benefit them too!
With Expanded Training - Magister and, hilariously, Duelist go well with this. Magister is a little redundant, but it’s just a better Spell Access so there’s no harm in it. Duelist, however, could absolutely work here with a Buckler, and… I want to say doing that ends up more interesting than Duelist itself?

Deadeye
As a base - It’s exactly what I’d expect, with the added bonus that it gives an extra nudge to weapons that need Rapid Reload. Combine with the gun-related Arcana and honestly, even without a stat-to-damage, I’d strongly consider a gun-toting Magus. As-is.
With Expanded Training - Offhand uh… I guess Bulwark with a Buckler can technically work? This doesn’t have a whole lot of Synergy with other tomes, which is probably for the best.

Duelist
As a base - First level ability is build defining, but the rest doesn’t really seem to synergize as well as other tomes. This scales better than Fighting Defensively I admit, but it doesn’t look like a satisfying buildup compared to other tomes in my personal opinion. Feel like you’d want to grab Lesser Expanded Training for the Dex to damage, and forget about the rest of this.
With Expanded Training - I guess Bulwark with a buckler, or with Pugilist? Again, this seems like it’s better to grab this tome via Lesser Expanded Training.

Gemini
As a base - This is… Probably more than solid, honestly. TWF with effectively 0 penalty (just the Spell Combat penalty) is kinda crazy. Everything else is just sort of expected progression for a TWF-er, so I can't be too hard on that... But just slapping the "move your speed" on the 15th level ability is massive.
With Expanded Training - Pugilist. By heavens Pugilist can be ridiculous with this. It would take a while, but you could pull a ridiculous number of bonus attacks when combining the two. It gets busted when you factor in Kensai and the Ascetic Style feat chain, too. Otherwise, maybe some synergy with Bulwark or Magister here, depending?

Juggernaut
As a base - Honestly, my opinion here amounts to exactly what I’d say about generic 2-handed fighting in general: “It’s kinda boring, but good at what it does”.
With Expanded Training - The 1st level power is mostly redundant with Speardancer, but that’s also really the only one that looks like it has any synergy here...

Magister
As a base - Whoof, this is some good stuff, but I also am a massive sucker for “Fight with book” as a gimmick. The 1st level power is pretty solid, if underwhelming before you get a few levels under your belt for it to really start mattering. 3rd level power is a simple and clean buff to blasting, but 9th is where you get a truly build-defining power and… Then a bonus set of 1/turn d8’s to throw around? Seems like a bit much together. 15th is potentially too strong, as “literally free metamagic” tends to be, so it might be better to split it up to “Still&Silent Spell, or Empowered, OR Persistent”.
With Expanded Training - Undoubtedly quite solid for someone with Bulwark Style, if they don’t mind swapping a real shield for a book in order to get an improved Spell Access.

Pugilist
As a base - For letting unarmed work, this isn’t to bad honestly. The free Stunning Fist can encourage someone to take Dragon Style which I like! As mentioned above, it gets a little goofy when you factor Ascetic Style in though. Suddenly you can “flurry” and spellstrike with the likes of a temple sword, quarterstaff, or a Waveblade.
With Expanded Training - Duelist dip if you’re sticking purely to regular flurries… But going into Gemini can, again, get bonkers.

Speardancer
As a base - Somewhat like Juggernaut, it’s a little in the “boring but functional” category, mechanically. Enabling spears is cool as heck though, and the whirlwind attack and reach shenanigans it can pull make it more exciting to me than Juggernaut, at least.
With Expanded Training - If you take Bladed Brush, this could have synergy with Duelist I guess, but otherwise it’s… Meh? Again, Juggernaut could work, but making other tomes work with it seems difficult.

Archetypes
Archetypes are a big bag… I already kinda said a lot of my piece on some of them in the document’s comments, so I’ll try to keep a lookover kinda brief for all of them just to save all of us some headache.

Blade of Legend - Honestly not much to say here, it’s in a pretty good spot compared to Bladebound, and I would almost say that losing Lingering Potential is the biggest hit… That said, Black Blade Strike is potentially just an infinite scaling damage boost you gain INSTEAD of Lingering Arcana, so that and the Black Blade potential feature may have to be looked at, especially since Transfer Arcana is kind of a joke now..

Coiled Viper - I can’t be a good judge of this, I was never a fan of Poisoned Tomes from that one SoM Magus, and am not a fan of Poison to begin with. That said, it appears to do its job well enough?

Dragon Fang - I said a lot of my piece on this already, but it’s probably worth repeating that getting functionally two tome abilities at level 1 feels kinda overboard, and like it’s a bad way to compensate for the switch to Spontcasting. Aside from that? I actually really like this, it’s a solid dragon-themed magus, that doesn’t force you into natural attacks. Kinda want to play one speccing into Pugilist, to be honest.

Drakeguard - I… Honestly this is another one I can’t call myself a good judge of, partly because I don’t know enough about it, more because I was never a big fan of drake stuff. It at least looks like a fun alternative to Spell Combat for anyone into that? Though the way it handles the ability to access tome powers is wonky, and might need text to account for interactions with Spell Combat (which it no longer has).

First Magus - It’s kinda simplistic, but solid. Feels like it’s missing something at a glance, but as far as battle shapeshifters go I like it. Lacking a bit of the fun of being able to always be in animal form until 15th hurts a little, but it’s still good.
Hexwielder - I… Okay, I can dig this. I almost want to say that maybe you should be able to use a hex during spell combat, possibly as an archetype-specific Arcana, but even without that it’s a nice translation of Hexcrafter.

Legendary Kensai - As much as I like Kensai, and think that “Full BAB and 6th caster” has a place in the game, this is… Honestly kind of nuts? BAB is super overvalued by the system, but breaking away from that risks hurting perceptions.

Ruinous Blade - As far as spheres conversion archetypes go, I think this one is pretty solid, and don’t have much to really gripe about. It seems to have the conversion down, and barring compatability, the only thing I can really point at is how it would be kinda nice to have an Arcana to make *all* uses of Destruction scale with Class Level, rather than just Destructive Blade… But there are fixes already in for that, I suppose.

Spellstriker - I’ve already talked about this one. Personally I do not like this implementation, especially with it coming right after Ruinous Blade, but in the end that’s just my opinion.

War Scholar - The trade is mostly in-line with other SoM-using archetypes, and while it lacks maybe some feature swaps, it keeps versatility like a couple other archetypes do. It admittedly could stand to lose something early on, but what to lose without dropping archetype compatibility is kind of a mystery to me.

Warp Tempest - I… Honestly, the more I look this over, the more I realize that it’s kind of a straight upgrade in many ways? Sure, you lose the extras from Armaments of the Magi, but… At-Will Teleport? It can be used with Spell Combat? It generates potential? You can still just feat into Arcane Strike? Sure, Ruinous Blade can get that too, but that’s in an entirely different magic system. The movement this opens up is massive, especially when you take into account most battlemap sizes.

[Mairn]

Did a few more balance tweaks to hopefully stop some cheesey combinations, and to nerf some of the stronger options a bit.
October 15th Update

Eldritch Tomes
Tome of the Gemini: Penalty reduction from 1st level ability only applies to attacks made using primary hand, instead of all attacks.
Tome of the Pugilist: Can no longer be stacked with Two-Weapon Fighting. Additional unarmed strike is gained as part of full attacks as well as Spell Combat to fix compatibility issues with archetypes that trade out spell combat.
Tome of the Magister: Clarified that the options are either Persistent OR Empowered OR Still&Silent because it apparently wasn't clear enough.

Archetypes
Blade of Legend: Clarified that Black Blade Strike caps at +5 damage at 17th level.
Dragon Fang: Cannot select Tome of the Magister. No longer adds Cha to damage with weapon attacks. Can no longer gain additional Tome abilities with arcana.
Hexwielder: Now loses magician's assault in addition to other potential techniques.
Legendary Kensai: Perfect Strike's cost reduced to 2. Perfect Strike and Rapid Spell Combat no longer have their costs reduced as part of this archetype.
Warp Tempest: Now loses surging strike in addition to other potential techniques.




Now to respond to some balance concerns brought up by Drifter:

Ascetic Style: Sure is a feat that exists.

Expanded Training: I kind of want to remove it because I am slowly realizing that trying to get it balanced will never be worth the effort without making the tome abilities worse as a whole.

Tome of the Duelist: It's not Dex to damage. It's Int to damage. It still two abilities that determine its Attack and Damage.

Blade of Legend: I have no idea what you are talking about here, sorry. How exactly is its damage boost infinitely scaling? It takes a swift action to activate, scales based on level, has a resource cost, and even if you could somehow get more than 1 swift action a turn, a single Technique can only be used once per turn.

Dragon Fang: It needs some tweaks.

Drakeguard: The only 1st level Tome ability that directly relied on Spell Combat was Pugilist, which I had missed when I went through and double checked them. It has been fixed to work with full attacks as well.

Hexwielder: using the Slumber Hex as part of a full attack would be busted, even if it cost an Arcana.

Legendary Kensai and Full BaB: It loses armor, and needs high Int to make up for it, while also needing a high Dex or Str to actually perform its role of damage. I was originally going to give it Weapon Training, but decided this way was probably less OP and also more fun. Its an archetype that focuses pretty heavily on a janky/bad fighting style that is Vital Strike as well.

Spellstriker: It's going to be contentious, but I have no intention of reintroducing Spellstrike to the base class, whether as a class feature or as an arcana. It would require rebalancing the entire class, and pretty much every archetype, again. It would also make SoM/P stuff even wonkier than it already is.

Warp Tempest: It traded the magus' main way of dealing additional damage (magicians assault, +accuracy and +damage), and now also trades surging strike. I felt this was a fairly balanced tradeoff, because Warping Surge requires line of sight and effect, so it can't really get you anywhere climbing/flying/walking couldn't get you, and its a spell-like ability that will always require the magus to cast defensively because its never affected by legendary combat casting. Its range is also pretty damn short, and will generally be always less than what a magus could move by just walking or charging to an enemy if they are investing in +movement items/spells until pretty high levels (25 + 5/2 brings it to 50 feet at 10th level, so its still not outspeeding expeditious retreat boots of striding and sprining.) Warp Sphere can also be grabbed using a feat, which innately allows spending of spell points to jump to medium range. It gets some mobility in combat, and some flanking gimmicks with Warping Savant at 12th level, but is *always* going to do a ****tier job at fighting at range and mobility than just playing an Archer magus.

[Duskwolf]

I found this playtest late last night and immediately was drawn to it, using the arcanist system with a magus type build was something I was working with on a similar concept myself and I sent links and many a comments to one of my players who will, I am sure, love to read them as he gets ready for work. I thought the playtest was in a good place and was going to put in my two silver bits worth in but over night the nerf hammer started tapping away. I was going to suggest that perhaps getting a arcana at first level, esp for certain ones like familiar and firearms might be helpful and either add in spell strike as a base or make it more compatible with other archetypes but you have already stated a disinclination to consider a more base line spell strike. As for the changes last night, TWF is already not an optimal fighting style and you really have to work at it to make it even somewhat viable , The changes to Tome of the Gemini are unfortunate as well as the changes to the Tome of the Duelists, Remove Expanded training? No, make it baseline at say level 5!

I understand the need for balance and trying to work within a certain general frame work but it already feels like the playtest for the DSP Voyager, going from wow that is cool to ehh its okay and has a niche. I like the basis of what you have and it has encouraged me to spend some time reading up on SOM and SOP in addition to my usage of Path of War in my games.

This playtest and your company now has my interest, as one of the few apparently, DMs that not only accept 3pp but embrace it I am always on the look out for new material.

Step up, be bold.

[khadgar567]

I found this playtest late last night and immediately was drawn to it, using the arcanist system with a magus type build was something I was working with on a similar concept myself and I sent links and many a comments to one of my players who will, I am sure, love to read them as he gets ready for work. I thought the playtest was in a good place and was going to put in my two silver bits worth in but over night the nerf hammer started tapping away. I was going to suggest that perhaps getting a arcana at first level, esp for certain ones like familiar and firearms might be helpful and either add in spell strike as a base or make it more compatible with other archetypes but you have already stated a disinclination to consider a more base line spell strike. As for the changes last night, TWF is already not an optimal fighting style and you really have to work at it to make it even somewhat viable , The changes to Tome of the Gemini are unfortunate as well as the changes to the Tome of the Duelists, Remove Expanded training? No, make it baseline at say level 5!

I understand the need for balance and trying to work within a certain general frame work but it already feels like the playtest for the DSP Voyager, going from wow that is cool to ehh its okay and has a niche. I like the basis of what you have and it has encouraged me to spend some time reading up on SOM and SOP in addition to my usage of Path of War in my games.

This playtest and your company now has my interest, as one of the few apparently, DMs that not only accept 3pp but embrace it I am always on the look out for new material.

Step up, be bold.
I gotta agree with the duskwolf. you guys nerfing to much with out solid reason its also happening on blood sphere playtest your initial pitch actually perfectly as it is the problem is kinda you over nerf the decent options just because we prefer as powerful. where instead of nerfing the f out of particular options that actualy pay the bills how about upping the damn ante on the less powerful ones. if you ask me on playtesti can gladly say rewind the last nerfs and publish this sucker already instead of trying to nerf it to paizo standart as two thirds of paizos content still suffering from gygaxes legacy so quit nerfing and boost the content to actualy be usefull for one in damn time.

[ChrisAsmadi]

If you're looking for Tome ideas, the Staff Magus archetype might make for a good inspiration, or something based around using Wands as a combat style, perhaps?

[khadgar567]

If you're looking for Tome ideas, the Staff Magus archetype might make for a good inspiration, or something based around using Wands as a combat style, perhaps?
from mandatory sasuke uchiha builds to harry pother build when we just gonna get the red mage part done right for once. if you gonna create new tome create akashic one please.

[Tariyan Draegr]

I gotta agree with the duskwolf. you guys nerfing to much with out solid reason its also happening on blood sphere playtest your initial pitch actually perfectly as it is the problem is kinda you over nerf the decent options just because we prefer as powerful. where instead of nerfing the f out of particular options that actualy pay the bills how about upping the damn ante on the less powerful ones. if you ask me on playtesti can gladly say rewind the last nerfs and publish this sucker already instead of trying to nerf it to paizo standart as two thirds of paizos content still suffering from gygaxes legacy so quit nerfing and boost the content to actualy be usefull for one in damn time.

This class is already stronger than the base magus. You lose spell strike and gain aracana that are useful, interesting options that synergize with any weapon you'd like to use with magus, a better way of getting spells, totally not tension, some totally not tension techniques, and a few more free feats. I do think the gemini nerfs hurt but the class is a lot better and a lot more interesting already than what we started with on base magus. It's ignorant to think that you can just give a class everything, leave it unchanged and call it fine. And it's also ignorant to think that you shouldn't attempt to balance around what's out there. Maybe I'm ignorant but I think 3rd party should increase and diversify power, not simply be objectively better in all ways and that's why I like this class so far.

[khadgar567]

It's ignorant to think that you can just give a class everything, leave it unchanged and call it fine. And it's also ignorant to think that you shouldn't attempt to balance around what's out there. Maybe I'm ignorant but I think 3rd party should increase and diversify power, not simply be objectively better in all ways and that's why I like this class so far.
@tariyan I think you understand me wrong the point i was making is guys like n jolly are decently experienced to create good balanced content but what i was raging is they immediately swing the nerf hammer when playtesters find particular decent option. this is my fifth or sixth playtest attendance and i see builds and options need nerf badly. the legendery magus not needs nerf that much as jolly kinda nails the balance perfectly enough that unless some one comes with broken enough build as reason for nerf i dont think class needs that last nerf cycle. hell we might need to boost it up a noch or two if you ask me

[Mithril Leaf]

Couple of things:
Should the Black Blade specify that you require proficiency with the weapon you want to use? Also if you are using a ranged weapon perhaps the weapon can generate it's own ammo? Makes the upkeep cost more fitting the legendary nature of the blade.

Potential doesn't allow you to fake combat, but what about keeping a troll inside a bag of holding that you genuinely do fight in a life or death situation?

Should there be a line somewhere specifying that you can take multiple archetypes that adjust Potential Techniques as long as none of them overwrite the same specific Technique?

[Mairn]

Couple of things:
Potential doesn't allow you to fake combat, but what about keeping a troll inside a bag of holding that you genuinely do fight in a life or death situation?

Should there be a line somewhere specifying that you can take multiple archetypes that adjust Potential Techniques as long as none of them overwrite the same specific Technique?

How would having a troll imprisoned somewhere that it can't reasonably ever have a chance of defeating you be a "life or death situation"?

Yeah, I can add a note at the top of the archetypes section about that.


Nerf Chat
Most of the Nerfs are pretty minor (Gemini has a -2 penalty to 1 attack, which is identical to the penalty applied by Pugilist now), or were clarifications and editing errors. Dragon Fang's 'Nerf' of losing Charisma to damage was actually supposed to be removed a while ago, as an example, but was missed and I caught it last night while rereading the archetype.


Expanded Training
My problem with Expanded Training right now is it just does too much to make it fair as an Arcana, and it definitely benefits certain builds more than others. I want to leave the 'Lesser' version of the ability to allow melded fighting style, but I feel the like 'normal' and 'Greater' versions are creating way too many balance problems with certain combinations, and the only way to fix it is to either remove those options, or seriously nerf the base options.

I am fine with Legendary Magus being a strong class, and I am fine with pushing the envelope with some abilities. I'm not okay with adding things that break the game with little effort within the base class.

[Adam1949]

My problem with Expanded Training right now is it just does too much to make it fair as an Arcana, and it definitely benefits certain builds more than others. I want to leave the 'Lesser' version of the ability to allow melded fighting style, but I feel the like 'normal' and 'Greater' versions are creating way too many balance problems with certain combinations, and the only way to fix it is to either remove those options, or seriously nerf the base options.

I am fine with Legendary Magus being a strong class, and I am fine with pushing the envelope with some abilities. I'm not okay with adding things that break the game with little effort within the base class.

Perhaps a method could be used that's similar to the Eldritch Heritage chain of feats? You still get some of the options, but they come WAY later than normal. For instance, you can only get the 3rd-level ability of a Tome starting at level 9 for your Arcana, and the 9th-level ability beginning at 15th with the cost of your Arcana? (Obviously the 15th-level ability wouldn't be able to come online at all; otherwise, you would have just chosen it to start with).

[Drifter S.]

Tome of the Duelist: It's not Dex to damage. It's Int to damage. It still two abilities that determine its Attack and Damage.

Blade of Legend: I have no idea what you are talking about here, sorry. How exactly is its damage boost infinitely scaling? It takes a swift action to activate, scales based on level, has a resource cost, and even if you could somehow get more than 1 swift action a turn, a single Technique can only be used once per turn.

Have a bunch of stuff I'm trying to do tonight but these two were the bigger mistakes on my part. For some reason I thought I had read that Duelist was "use Int mod or Dex mod in place of Strength Mod". I either hallucinated, skimmed too fast, or was thinking of something from an entirely different document.

As for the Blade of Legend thing? I forgot a comma. Well, and a word, I guess. I was trying to say that it was infinite use, and scaling. In hindsight, I probably could have just said "functionally infinite use" without mentioning scaling at all, since there's really only Energy Attunement to spend the blade's Potential on instead. It was also likely just some kneejerking from recalling someone whining hard about 1pp Bladebound's version of the ability, which is laughable in hindsight.

[Mairn]

Okay, I have been listening to some feedback from a few sources in regards to expanded training.
I introduced it because I thought it was cool, and I still think it is, so I am going to try to make it work.


Legendary Magus Arcana
Improved Expanded Training: This has been added, now requiring having any 3rd level Eldritch Tome ability and Magus level 9.
It grants the 3rd level ability of Expanded Tome.

Greater Expanded Training: This has been added, now requiring any 9th level Eldritch Tome ability and Magus level 15th.
It grants the 9th level ability of Expanded Tome.

Eldritch Tomes
Tome of the Bulwark: While using a buckler, the magus only gains the passive and active abilities of the tome while they are receiving a bonus to AC from the buckler. I.E. when not using the hand wielding it to attack with anything (2-handed weapon, or an offhand).

Tome of the Pugilist: Bonus damage granted by level 15 ability is not multiplied on a critical hit.

[Mithril Leaf]

How would having a troll imprisoned somewhere that it can't reasonably ever have a chance of defeating you be a "life or death situation"?


By being CR appropriate and not being chained up in any way? If you are able to easily dispatch it then it shouldn't do so outside of a controlled access situation anyway. I'm not talking about a chained up one, basically just a demiplane with monsters that could well kill you.

[DavictheGrey]

By being CR appropriate and not being chained up in any way? If you are able to easily dispatch it then it shouldn't do so outside of a controlled access situation anyway. I'm not talking about a chained up one, basically just a demiplane with monsters that could well kill you.

That is an extremely unlikely scenario that requires a lot of set up for relatively minor gain, as well as an incredibly generous GM. I don't see a need to break our word count trying to expressly forbid it.

[DavictheGrey]

The playtest is now closed. Thank you to everyone who participated and gave feedback. We are putting the finishing touches and will have the final product out soon.