Can sorcerers be decent at support/buffing players?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I was just wondering how everyone feels about using sorcerers as a buffing character to support players rather than acting as blasters? I was thinking about a Lore Bard 6, with Sorcerer 3 and then was wondering what you could accomplish by just sticking with Sorcerer instead of multi-classing.

[Unoriginal]

Buffing Sorcerer is a common build, yeah.

Being able to twin single-target buffs is of great help.

[Citadel97501]

Any specific spell suggestions for a level 9 character?

[Citan]

Hello all, I was just wondering how everyone feels about using sorcerers as a buffing character to support players rather than acting as blasters? I was thinking about a Lore Bard 6, with Sorcerer 3 and then was wondering what you could accomplish by just sticking with Sorcerer instead of multi-classing.
Hi!

So, yeah Sorcerers can not only be decent but actually top-notch buffers.
The main (big) difference with others is that due to low number of spell known you have to choose a "building strategy".

1. "I will play in a stable group AND I know what characters they'll build AND I (more or less) know how they play tactics-wise".

This is the ideal situation, in which Sorcerer is kinda the best buffer possible: discuss a bit with your friends to have an idea on their mid-term goal, and pick an assortment of archetype + spells + metamagics.
Ex: two same people being martial frontliners -> planning on Twin Haste is nice.
Ex: two friendly casters usually being "cast a big spell then hide and seek" -> having Twin Polymorph may be useful at times.
Ex: you are a 4-man party, with little healing and no big tank? Extended Aid+Death Ward + Twin Healing Words from Divine Soul will be truely lifesaver.

2. "I play in a stable group but I don't know how they will really build besides a role pick (healer, tank, skirmisher).

This is kinda more complex: you'll have to decide what role is primarily missing first (if no AOE and martials -> Careful mass spells or blast will be expected).
If you can fill in the "buffer" role, then you'll have to work on classic expectations.
"Tank ? Will go and take many hits (Shield of Faith, Warding Bond, Haste)".
" Skillmonkey but not a Knowledge Cleric/Rogue? Enhance Ability / Bless / Guidance can be helpful".
"Low party-wide stealth? Silence and/or Invisibility paired with Subtle and/or Extended may help much.
"Martial Heavy party in a world with many resistant enemies?" Keeping Dragon Breath to Twin (RAW? Think so but not sure) will be handy.
Etc etc.

3. "I have no clue about who I play with every session BUT I want to play a buffer"
Then the choice is basically about what combination to pick among Subtle, Quicken and Extend. Then pick the classic buff spells that are overall useful in any situation: Darkness, Enhance Ability, Fly, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, Catnap (!!!), then pick a few classic offensive spells (Chromatic Orb, Blindness, Phantasmal Force, Slow, Fireball).

You are playing on the "weak" side of Sorcerer here: all those spells are great, and some of them can allow much creativity, but you will probably be fairly similar to another "can-do-it-all" Sorcerer you may meet, with only difference being maybe the Metamagic choice.

In that regard, if you want to play a buffer but are afraid of being too specialized as a single-class, it's indeed very useful to dip/multiclass in other CHA-classes. :)
Or pick Ritual Caster (Wizard -or Bard if specific taste for its exclusives compared to Wizard-) to expand the way you can buff "the party" in general by taking care of camp security, finding information, facilitating travel and such.

Edit: plz note that in my opinion, the "I made mostly the same choices as many other people playing a Sorcerer" is NOT a problem *at all*.
Not only can two people use the exact same spell in *very* different ways -much much more true when considering the character as a whole, even with exact same building choices-...
Not only would those characters usually play in different groups anyways (so how they interact and the situations offered to them would make them very different).
But mechanics are not (supposed to be at least) the primary thing of a *roleplaying* game.
Put the exact same sheet, except background story / alignemnt on two different people, and you should normally see very different evolutions. :)
Anyways... Have fun!

[sophontteks]

Twinning spells like enlarge/reduce, haste, polymorph, and greater invisibility is unmatched in the support/buffing category.
Taking subtle will compliment your bard. With it you can cast spells like phantasmal force, suggestion, charm person, etc without anyone knowing magic was used.

[Asmotherion]

Well, I actually find the Buffing/Control Sorcerer supperior to a Blaster Build. Ofcource, since I like having the cake and eating it too, when I play a Sorcerer, I always go Sorlock for the Crazy Eldritch Blasts. Eldritch Blasts (Or a Thematic attack roll cantrip, if you don't optimise that path; I suggest Chill Touch) and perhaps a couple other Blasting spells are all you'll need in your career as a Sorcerer in my experiance.

Namelly:

My Sorcerer Essentials For Blasting:
Cantrips: Thematic Attack roll cantrip (In my case Eldritch Blast), that is considered your "Trademark Attack/Weapon". You hit things often with this.
1st Level: A good spell with a Damage Output that Scales when Upcast. Magic Missile/Chromatic Orb/Thunderwave are my honorary mentions.
2nd Level: A Spell Focusing on your Playstyle that can be Upcast for more Damage, and be versalite enough for strategic reasons. My main choices here are Dragon's Breath/Scorching Ray/Shatter. Occasionally Shadow Blade too.
3rd Level: By this level, if I pick a Blasting Spell, it will be Fireball. Otherwise, I focus on more subtle spells. Not necesseraly spells that don't deal damage, but that's not the reason they are on my list.

I won't comment on higher level spells. This is quite linear 'till 5th Level spells at least. From Levels 6-9 there are some amazing options (honorary mentions to all times clasic Disintegrade, Finger of Death and Meteor Swarm), but also amazing are the options that are non blasting oriented. That's what you do as a Sorcerer; Chose to take them, or Leave them.

By limiting your Blasting options with this perspective, you make room for a lot more non-blasting options, in order to make a strategy around how to actually use your spells (and spell slots).

[R.Shackleford]

Hello all, I was just wondering how everyone feels about using sorcerers as a buffing character to support players rather than acting as blasters? I was thinking about a Lore Bard 6, with Sorcerer 3 and then was wondering what you could accomplish by just sticking with Sorcerer instead of multi-classing.

Sorcerers are one of the best buffing classes out there. Especially now with the Divine Soul or whatever it's called.

The sorcerer is my favorite arcane caster when it comes to class features as they get metamagic. Twin and Quicken is just ridiculously good for buffing.

Hell, Subtle spell (one of the best features in the game) can be used for buffing. Subtle invisibility to buff yourself or an ally? Heck ya!

I understand why the sorcerer has very few spells known and is a little on the low side with SP... They have some really strong class features that are straight up amazing.

[Aaedimus]

If you build a Bardic Divine Soul Sorcerer you can give inspiration and guidance to your team simultaneously.

1d6+1d4 is an an average of 6 max 10 bonus to their rolls. That's always nice.

[R.Shackleford]

If you build a Bardic Divine Soul Sorcerer you can give inspiration and guidance to your team simultaneously.

1d6+1d4 is an an average of 6 max 10 bonus to their rolls. That's always nice.

Guidance is an action spell and Inspiration is a bonus action class feature...

You don't need the Sorcerer to do this as Inspiration isn't a spell.

Unless there has been a ruling I don't know about?

Edit

Unless you mean to give Guidance to 2 creatures via twin and Inspiration to one of them?

[sophontteks]

Guidance is an action spell and Inspiration is a bonus action class feature...

You don't need the Sorcerer to do this as Inspiration isn't a spell.

Unless there has been a ruling I don't know about?

Edit

Unless you mean to give Guidance to 2 creatures via twin and Inspiration to one of them?
I think they mean you can have both guidance and inspiration. Good so long as there are no druids or clerics in the party.

[R.Shackleford]

I think they mean you can have both guidance and inspiration. Good so long as there are no druids or clerics in the party.

Ah, gotcha.

Seems like if that's what you're going for... Sorcerer isn't needed. Like, just stick with Bard and grab Magic Initiate. Going sorcerer levels would just stop your inspiration from growing.

[Quoxis]

Guidance is an action spell and Inspiration is a bonus action class feature...

You don't need the Sorcerer to do this as Inspiration isn't a spell.

Unless there has been a ruling I don't know about?

Edit

Unless you mean to give Guidance to 2 creatures via twin and Inspiration to one of them?

Guidance isn’t on the bard‘s list, afaik, and multiclassing sorc is easier than cleric or druid, spending a feat for magic initiate or wasting magical secrets on a cantrip.
Also, as you said, it’s twinnable - group stealth checks for example can use that well.
Also #2, bard dip brings more to the table than inspiration and sorc dip more than metamagic and guidance.

[R.Shackleford]

Guidance isn’t on the bard‘s list, afaik, and multiclassing sorc is easier than cleric or druid, spending a feat for magic initiate or wasting magical secrets on a cantrip.
Also, as you said, it’s twinnable - group stealth checks for example can use that well.
Also #2, bard dip brings more to the table than inspiration and sorc dip more than metamagic and guidance.


If your goal is to be guidance + inspiration then straight bard + magic initiate is the best way to go about it. Magical secrets are better used for other spells.

Going sorcerer just isn't needed or even a good idea if you want to use the tactics from above as you lose out on inspiration and other fun Bard abilities. Also to get MM you have to go three levels... Eh...

V. Human (Magic Initiate Druid: Guidance, Druid craft, and Goodberry) OR just grab the feat at level 4 and go with a different race.

[sophontteks]

Guidance isn’t on the bard‘s list, afaik, and multiclassing sorc is easier than cleric or druid, spending a feat for magic initiate or wasting magical secrets on a cantrip.
Also, as you said, it’s twinnable - group stealth checks for example can use that well.
Also #2, bard dip brings more to the table than inspiration and sorc dip more than metamagic and guidance.
You don't need to multiclass to a cleric or druid. If they are in the party at all they probably have guidance. If the party doesn't have a source of guidance though, then its a good pick up for sure.

Group stealth checks should not be a thing. Group checks are very rare (it even says as much in its description).

[Quoxis]

You don't need to multiclass to a cleric or druid. If they are in the party at all they probably have guidance. If the party doesn't have a source of guidance though, then its a good pick up for sure.

Group stealth checks should not be a thing. Group checks are very rare (it even says as much in its description).

Not a pro here, but a) in my experience there are quite a few parties with no druids/clerics and there are even druids/clerics that don’t choose the guidance cantrip (which i can’t understand honestly, imo it’s one of the best ooc cantrips around), and b) if a party is trying to sneak up on someone/stay hidden from them, i thought it was common to have each of them roll a stealth check individually and then check if the opponent spots them via passive perception? In that case having the plate armored paladin, the half plate wearing barbarian and the 10 dex wizard getting a bonus to their check might be important, and the more of them you can help the better.

Of course everything depends on party composition, but if you start with that point you might as well say „you don’t need to plan ahead and build a character in the first place because someone else might have one overlapping with yours“.

[sophontteks]

Not a pro here, but a) in my experience there are quite a few parties with no druids/clerics and there are even druids/clerics that don’t choose the guidance cantrip (which i can’t understand honestly, imo it’s one of the best ooc cantrips around), and b) if a party is trying to sneak up on someone/stay hidden from them, i thought it was common to have each of them roll a stealth check individually and then check if the opponent spots them via passive perception? In that case having the plate armored paladin, the half plate wearing barbarian and the 10 dex wizard getting a bonus to their check might be important, and the more of them you can help the better.

Of course everything depends on party composition, but if you start with that point you might as well say „you don’t need to plan ahead and build a character in the first place because someone else might have one overlapping with yours“.
Yes and yes.
Its common for parties to not have a cleric or a druid. I'm just pointing out that the value of this is changes based on team comp. I think its a really good thing to consider though, guidance is really good.

And thats how stealth checks are done. Group checks are when everyone rolls and the groups average is the roll. When you said "group stealth check" it sounded a whole lot like that's what you meant.

[Quoxis]

Yes and yes.
Its common for parties to not have a cleric or a druid. I'm just pointing out that the value of this is changes based on team comp. I think its a really good thing to consider though, guidance is really good.

And thats how stealth checks are done. Group checks are when everyone rolls and the groups average is the roll. When you said "group stealth check" it sounded a whole lot like that's what you meant.

That’s what happens when you only ever played one edition and have the source books in a different language i suppose. Sorry for the confusion!

[AHF]

You don't need to multiclass to a cleric or druid. If they are in the party at all they probably have guidance. If the party doesn't have a source of guidance though, then its a good pick up for sure.

Group stealth checks should not be a thing. Group checks are very rare (it even says as much in its description).

If you are going Divine Soul you can also take it without multiclassing.

[sophontteks]

That’s what happens when you only ever played one edition and have the source books in a different language i suppose. Sorry for the confusion!
Nah its my fault. I assume too much.:smallbiggrin:

[GeistInMachine]

I have been playing a Support/Buffer build Divine Sorc for about half a year now, and it is hands down the strongest build i have played.

On paper, it looks unimpressive at first glance.
Currently Level 12
10/14/18/8/12/14 Mountain Dwarf
Warcaster at 4, Dwarven Fortitude at 8, Inspiring Leader at 12
Twin and Quicken at 3, Extended at 12

Being a support sorc,much as how an Eldritch Knight does not need strong int, you do not need high cha.

This allows you to focus on Con and Warcaster, meaning you never lose concentration on anything. Couple that with 17+5 ac from Half Plate and Shield, and Healing while Dodging from Dwarven Fortitude, and you have 100% uptime on any concentration spell.

My goto is Twin Hasting two martials. Its incredibly effective at mopping up a few enemies.

An alternative, one i often use if the party is low on resources, is of course Twin Polymorph. Two Giant Apes or Trexes make short work of most encounters, and are especially good vs very offensive enemies that deal a lot of damage

If Swarmed, I use Spirit Guardians. Sure the dc is low, but the constant damage and difficult terrain is relevant, especially upcast vs mooks. And with your high HP and AC, you can dodge tank for quite a long time.

The capstone to this is Extended Spell, to extend Aid and Deathward to 16 hour durations. Cast this on the second to last watch of the night, and you have all day buffs while still recharging your slots.
If you grab it at 10, buffing an entire party with 5th Level Aid and Death Ward takes up 10 sorc points and all your 5th,4th, one 3rd and all 2nd level slots through flexable casting. A night encounter is easily solvable even with just 3rds and 1sts, so there is little risk, and a lot of reward for the next day

Combine with Inspiring Leader for even more survivability