How Much Dust Does Disintegrate Make?

[unseenmage]

Am kicking around the idea of making Awaken Sand (Sa) creatures out of the Disintegrated dust of my enemies.

I kind of remember discussing this way back when but cannot seem to find the thread. Could also be misrrmembering an irl conversation.

Any spell that leaves sand or dust remains will work. Esp if it has a better creature size to volume comparison than Disintegrate.

EDIT
Another consideration. How best to collect then transport the dust or ash of my victims until I've gathered enough to cast Awaken Sand upon.

A Portable Hole would seem to be simplest for transport. But how does one most easily collect ash or dust? How long would Unseen Servant take to collect one medium creature 's worth in dust? Is there a better spell for the job?

[Oracle71]

I would say that, if it worked at all, it would be about the same amount as the cremains of a cremated individual. Say, a pile of dust 3 size categories smaller than the individual it came from, as a rough estimate.

[unseenmage]

IIRC the Disintegrate spell is pretty explicit that there's hardly anything left of the target.

Cannot remember the name and am afb but there should also be a spell that immolates the target reducing them to a literal pile of ash.

[Doctor Awkward]

IIRC the Disintegrate spell is pretty explicit that there's hardly anything left of the target.

Cannot remember the name and am afb but there should also be a spell that immolates the target reducing them to a literal pile of ash.

There are no rules that explicitly cover what you are asking, so a DM could house-rule pretty much anything.

The short answer:
The law of conservation of mass states that in a closed system matter cannot be created or destroyed. Only changed from one form to another. So the simplest answer is that you would have a pile of dust that is exactly the size of the target of the spell, whether this is a colossal creature, or a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter.

The long answer:
In (mad) science, disintegration refers to the transformation of an atomic nucleus from a more massive to a less massive configuration by the emission of particles or radiation. This either occurs naturally, in the case of things like radioactive decay, or artificially, such as through bombarding something with high-speed alpha particles, which is what happens inside particle accelerators and nuclear reactors. The second thing sounds a lot closer to what we are dealing with so we'll operate under the assumption that the disintegrate spell is essentially a portable hadron collider.

To that end, the results of high-speed alpha particles coming into contact with human flesh is actually something that has been documented: https://qz.com/964065/this-is-what-happened-to-the-scientist-who-stuck-his-head-inside-a-particle-accelerator/

Fortunately for that technician, and unfortunately for us, the results of being bombarded with high-speed proton radiation were that he lived. Half his face is paralyzed, he now has epilepsy which has resulted in at least six generalized grand mal seizures, likely a result of brain tissue-scarring left by the proton beam.

Taking a step back, the other likely possibility is that the disintegrate spell operates on the same principles as a linear particle accelerator, which takes charged particles such as electrons, positrons, or other ionized atoms, accelerates them to near-light speed, and then flings them at a specific target. The resulting particles contain tremendous kinetic energy which they impart to the target that often results in near-instantaneous and catastrophic superheating. This in turn alters the atomic structure by breaking down chemical bonds and reducing the object into component substances.

In this case, the end result is the same. You would ultimately end up with finely powdered remains equal to the mass of your original object.

Unfortunately, neither of these explanations appear to line up with the description or general function of the spell, inviting the argument that you are not dealing with a closed system on account of magic being involved. In this case, hypothetically, the largest portion of the disintegrated object are actually sent somewhere else across space and/or time.

[SLOTHRPG95]

There are no rules that explicitly cover what you are asking, so a DM could house-rule pretty much anything.

The short answer:
The law of conservation of mass states that in a closed system matter cannot be created or destroyed. Only changed from one form to another. So the simplest answer is that you would have a pile of dust that is exactly the size of the target of the spell, whether this is a colossal creature, or a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter.

The long answer:
In (mad) science, disintegration refers to the transformation of an atomic nucleus from a more massive to a less massive configuration by the emission of particles or radiation. This either occurs naturally, in the case of things like radioactive decay, or artificially, such as through bombarding something with high-speed alpha particles, which is what happens inside particle accelerators and nuclear reactors. The second thing sounds a lot closer to what we are dealing with so we'll operate under the assumption that the disintegrate spell is essentially a portable hadron collider.

To that end, the results of high-speed alpha particles coming into contact with human flesh is actually something that has been documented: https://qz.com/964065/this-is-what-happened-to-the-scientist-who-stuck-his-head-inside-a-particle-accelerator/

Fortunately for that technician, and unfortunately for us, the results of being bombarded with high-speed proton radiation were that he lived. Half his face is paralyzed, he now has epilepsy which has resulted in at least six generalized grand mal seizures, likely a result of brain tissue-scarring left by the proton beam.

Taking a step back, the other likely possibility is that the disintegrate spell operates on the same principles as a linear particle accelerator, which takes charged particles such as electrons, positrons, or other ionized atoms, accelerates them to near-light speed, and then flings them at a specific target. The resulting particles contain tremendous kinetic energy which they impart to the target that often results in near-instantaneous and catastrophic superheating. This in turn alters the atomic structure by breaking down chemical bonds and reducing the object into component substances.

In this case, the end result is the same. You would ultimately end up with finely powdered remains equal to the mass of your original object.

Unfortunately, neither of these explanations appear to line up with the description or general function of the spell, inviting the argument that you are not dealing with a closed system on account of magic being involved. In this case, hypothetically, the largest portion of the disintegrated object are actually sent somewhere else across space and/or time.

In fact, many Transmutation spells modify total mass. An average gnome mage who casts Alter Self to transform into a bugbear will exhibit a significant increase in mass. Fortunately, our system can still be closed as long as we have a mass-energy conversion going on. Unfortunately, that means the spell requires something on the order of magnitude of a gigaton TNT equivalent, and that an equal amount of energy is released when it expires. Yikes. So yes, if Disintegrate is simply converting matter into energy, then disintegrating an Orc should have about the same energy yield as the world's combined nuclear arsenal. This means either magic makes energy-mass total non-conservative, or perhaps that D&D physics only closely resembles real-world physics when dealing with traditional classical mechanics.

[unseenmage]

Found it. Ashen Union (Sa110), is a save or die that turns the victim to powder. Seems the volume remains constant and a medium creature should generate a medium creature's worth of powder.

Edit
Blackfire (Spell Compendium, p. 29) leaves a pile of ash. Again though how much is up for debate. Here is where I would use the appropriate volume of cremains based on the spell description.


Another question, what happens if one were to PAO an elephant into sand or dust then Awaken Sand said material?

Would a Dispel or Antimagic Field return the subject to their original state or what?

[SLOTHRPG95]

Found it. Ashen Union (Sa110), is a save or die that turns the victim to powder. Seems the volume remains constant and a medium creature should generate a medium creature's worth of powder.

Edit
Blackfire (Spell Compendium, p. 29) leaves a pile of ash. Again though how much is up for debate. Here is where I would use the appropriate volume of cremains based on the spell description.


Another question, what happens if one were to PAO an elephant into sand or dust then Awaken Sand said material?

Would a Dispel or Antimagic Field return the subject to their original state or what?

If you PAO'd an elephant into sand, it'd only last 3 hours, which isn't long enough to cast Awaken Sand. If that wasn't a problem (say, targeting an earth elemental instead of an elephant for Permanent duration), then yes it could be Dispelled as normal, Awakened nature notwithstanding.

[Pleh]

The short answer:
The law of conservation of mass states that in a closed system matter cannot be created or destroyed. Only changed from one form to another. So the simplest answer is that you would have a pile of dust that is exactly the size of the target of the spell, whether this is a colossal creature, or a 10-foot cube of nonliving matter.

They could be turned completely to energy and not leave any dust at all, even with real world physics. Since we have a spell conducting this conversion for us, it doesn't have to be explosive as the spell can redirect the energy released harmlessly into a transdimensional void.

Also, the process wouldn't be easy to reverse, not just because it's a powerful spell, but because thermodynamics tells us amy conversion will have some loss (and discintegrate does not specify otherwise).

[Ashtagon]

5e SRD says it leaves a "pile of fine gray dust", and can affect up to a 10-foot cube.

3e SRD says it leaves a "trace of fine dust", and can affect up to a 10-foot cube.

There's no specific ruling on the exact volume, but it seems clear that it won't leave an equal volume of dust. Otherwise, any attempt to clear a path through a wall by disintegrating it would leave a severe choking hazard.

Any answer based on conservation of mass is missing a major point: a wizard (literally) did it. It doesn't have to obey real world physics.

Since cremation was mentioned up-thread, it may be worth noting that a typical adult's cremated remains weigh about 5 lb (link (https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2006/07/i-m-burning-up-how-much-will-my-ashes-weigh.html)). Assuming 150 lb for a standard adult, that makes for 1/30 original mass. However, I don't think cremation remains is the best benchmark either, since disintegrate will destroy a cube of solid rock as easily (easier in fact, if its unattended) as it will living flesh, and rock doesn't really cremate down to a smaller mass or volume.

Personally, I'd go with 1/200 original mass. That leaves the 10-foot cube turned into a layer of powder a little under an inch deep (nb the extra volume is made up of air between the dust particles; it's no longer solid rock), which to me seems like the most you can have and reasonably fit the description of a "trace of fine dust".

EDIT: Aside from the aesthetics of it, is there a reason to use the dust of your enemies, since it would seem any sand would be suitable as a target for the awaken sand spell.

[Deophaun]

The short answer:
The law of conservation of mass states...
This is magic. The laws of physics do not apply. Energy is created and destroyed on a whim. Perpetual motion machines are the basis for industrialization. The speed of light doesn't concern a wizard teleporting to the sun and back. Ten-ton dragons routinely turn into human beings that don't crash through second-story wooden floors.

[Elkad]

Lead is somewhat antimagic (blocks divinations).

The human body contains a tiny amount of lead (about a tenth of a gram).

Maybe that's all that is left.

[Doctor Awkward]

This is magic. The laws of physics do not apply. Energy is created and destroyed on a whim. Perpetual motion machines are the basis for industrialization. The speed of light doesn't concern a wizard teleporting to the sun and back. Ten-ton dragons routinely turn into human beings that don't crash through second-story wooden floors.

Yes, I did say as much at the end of my post.

However the rules also tell us that they "clear up as much as possible, assuming the DM can make a judgment in a situation that the rules don’t cover or that they don’t cover adequately. DMs are expected to use knowledge of existing rules, common sense, realworld knowledge, and a sense of fun when dealing with such special cases. Knowledge of the existing rules is key, because the rules often do cover similar cases or combine to make such judgment calls unnecessary."

So there is nothing inherently wrong with analyzing a situation using mad science, provided it's all done in good fun.

[Deophaun]

So there is nothing inherently wrong with analyzing a situation using mad science...
Dehumanizing cat-girls is a bannable offense.

(also, you didn't really say as much, hinging your analysis of it being a closed system or not: magic doesn't care. It will be a part of your closed system and add to it/subtract from it as it desires)

[Fizban]

I'd say maybe a small salt shaker's worth. So a pile maybe an inch high and a couple inches across. Enough that the wind won't immediately blow it away, you can scoop it into a container if you have a brush and scoop, multiple people can take a bit with them for resurrection purposes, but otherwise a very small amount that is easily ignored, dispersed, and lost. Just enough that if left undisturbed you'll notice it.

[unseenmage]

I'm of the opinion that Disintegrate gives us a fine sized volume of dust regardless of the target's original size.

This means to get to that "15-ft. area of sand touched" required for the spell we'll have to kill and collect and transport 64(?) target's worth in dust.

To this end I'm thinking a Portable Hole would work best. Could be slid by hand practically under the dust like scooping it up with a paper plate, albeit a paper plate with a hole to another dimension on it.

I wonder how much a Portable Hole enchanted to cast Awaken Sand would cost if it only did so when it contained the correct volume of dust-i-fied creatures?

As for Blackfire, a medium creature leaves roughly tiny sized cremains so I'll go with that amount of size category loss for cremains, minus two sizes categories.

Ashen Union doesnt seem to shrink the remains, merely convert them straight to dust. It's not as classic as Disintegrate nor as metal as Blackfire but purely pound for pound it looks like the best option so far.


What other methods are there for turning one's enemies into Awaken Sand able material?
What's the lowest level we can reliably dust level appropriate enemies?





...

EDIT: Aside from the aesthetics of it, is there a reason to use the dust of your enemies, since it would seem any sand would be suitable as a target for the awaken sand spell.
Nope. Purely the aesthetics. Literally no other reason.

[Khedrac]

I would say that, if it worked at all, it would be about the same amount as the cremains of a cremated individual. Say, a pile of dust 3 size categories smaller than the individual it came from, as a rough estimate.

I cannot speak for your country, but you might be suprised. In the UK most of the contents of the urn given to the mourners is ground up bone - the cremation ovens do not burn hot enough to reduce bone in the time available (I have read that it isn't legally cremation - natural gas is simply not hot enough, it requires coal gas - but I don't know how true that statement is). What isn't ground bone is probably coffin ash rather than person (again source is dubious). which suggests that a fully cremated person leaves very little residue (thinking about is this is true of most organic materials - the more thoroughly they are burned the more CO2 is produced and the less ash.

I have always been under the impression that the amount of dust produced is tiny - as in less than a tablespoon, probably a lot less (sorry, I don't know US cup sizes).

[Calthropstu]

Here's a question, what happens if you take a massive amount of disintegrate dust, pack it tightly and make a block from it... then disintegrate it.

[Sto]

Here's a question, what happens if you take a massive amount of disintegrate dust, pack it tightly and make a block from it... then disintegrate it.

Sounds like a double negative to me. You disintegrate a disintegrated thing and everything that's been disintegrated returns to normal. Bodies and rocks flying everywhere.

[unseenmage]

Here's a question, what happens if you take a massive amount of disintegrate dust, pack it tightly and make a block from it... then disintegrate it.
Have I told you I love the way you think? Because I sometimes love the way you think.

[SLOTHRPG95]

Here's a question, what happens if you take a massive amount of disintegrate dust, pack it tightly and make a block from it... then disintegrate it.

I'm pretty sure... it's disintegrated. It's definitely non-living matter, and so as long as it's no more than a 10-ft. cube of disintegrate dust, it's simply turned into a much smaller pile of disintegrate dust.

[Jowgen]

To answer the question about gathering the dust, Prestidigitation has a "Gather (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20010707)" function that is imo the single most convenient thing that spell can do, which is saying something. It can even gather selectively. Should allow you to just walk and have an endless stream of fine surrounding dust keep gathering into your Enveloping Pit. Beats Unseen Servant for this job and has a great duration.