Dual-Casting Prestiges: Early entry tricks rule question

[ChudoJogurt]

So, one of the early-entry tricks that I found, for entering Divine/Arcane prestige class (e.g. Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, Geomancer) is using Sanctum Spell to get access to "second level" spells via free Heighten Spell.

That already seems somewhat innately cheesy, but assuming it works (by RAW it seems to), would such character (e.g. Wizard 3/Druid 1/Mystic Theurge 1) lose the benefits of his prestige class once he leaves his sanctum (since he is no longer able to cast 2nd level Divine spells)?

Would the situation be different if he were Wizard 3/Druid 1/Mystic Theurge 4?

[Ramza00]

If you don't mind being the illumian race (a human off shoot race with magical runes around their head like Elrond from the animated hobit movie.) Then you do not have this problem for you can keep your magical runes up all the time. How this early entry trick works is they have a feat improved sigil krau (there are different runes you can have, krau is one of the choices and you get 2 choices at HD 2 and 1 choice at HD 1) and you can have 2 spells that are treated as 1 level higher at HD 2. Thus a Wizard 1/ Archivist 1/X 1 can enter Mystic Theurge at level 4 with the skill requirements. Or you can do a different class instead of Archivist.

----

Remember Wizard 1 could give you Rapid Summoning or Abrupt Jaunt. It could give you a martial wizard fighter feat and Archivist gives you scribe scroll and almost full spellcasting of an archivist with a massive increase in the amounts of spell known per level due to mystic theurge progressing both sides.

It is so easy to be a specialist wizard with an Archivist other side for you can give schools up such as Abjuration and get all the spells back from your Archivist side. Also at HD 10 if you do not mind giving up a 5th level divine slot you now know all the arcane spells if you can track down (or craft) a tome of ancient lore.

[ChudoJogurt]

I have read up on other early-entries (Precocious Apprentice, Southern Magic, etc). I was just wondering about the case when (a) you lose the pre-req for the class after you took the class and (b)if the class itself can support its own pre-reqs (e.g. as in the case with Wiz3/Druid1/MT4, where MT gives you the ability to cast 2nd level spells outside the sanctum, which fulfills the pre-reqs of MT)

[Covenant12]

A) Some DM's view this as cheesy, but TO generally views losing the prerequisites as fine, exception being the Complete Warrior PrCs. (which has a rule saying basically lose prereq, loss class abilities) Applying the Complete Warrior rule everywhere leads to problems. Most famous and core, Dragon Disciple (DMG) no longer qualifies to enter its own class at level 10. House rules are common and varied, many say "fine, but don't abuse it". (i.e. buy ring of evasion to qualify, then immediately sell it)

B) Basically A) answers B), commonly fine. I could see a strict DM say, not allow that feat to be retrained per PHB II. Again, majority of TO (good life advice is don't use this in an argument with a DM) would be fine with it.

[Ramza00]

I have read up on other early-entries (Precocious Apprentice, Southern Magic, etc). I was just wondering about the case when (a) you lose the pre-req for the class after you took the class and (b)if the class itself can support its own pre-reqs (e.g. as in the case with Wiz3/Druid1/MT4, where MT gives you the ability to cast 2nd level spells outside the sanctum, which fulfills the pre-reqs of MT)

The rules are iffy on this and sourcebooks outside of the original core go both ways (I am not going to re-litigate the arguments on both sides but pretty much the argument exists both ways). I wish it was a simple answer RAW but it isn't, and early entry was not RAI.

Sorry but sometimes systems are not easy or simple and with a clear answer.

Edit: Aka I agree with Covenant12 said which was posted a little bit earlier while I typed this.

[death390]

don't forget the feat Easy metamagic (metamagic). it allows you to apply a -1 to metamagic to a minimum +1, but you can apply easy metamagic (easy metamagic( Heighten spell) ) and continue to stack it to get even higher levels. because all metamagic costs are additive. so Heighten spell + easy metamagic (heighten spell) allows you to heighten a spell by 2 for +1 spell level, 4 for +3 spell level ect. meaning you could heighten a cantrip to lvl 2 for a 1st level spell slot. be warned side effects may include: books thrown at you by your DM, frustration, and insanity.

[Nifft]

using Sanctum Spell to get access to "second level" spells via free Heighten Spell.

Sanctum Spell is a very iffy.

I'd expect less trouble trying to justify early entry by using a homebrewed Rod of Lesser Heighten.

If you can swing Druid 3 / Wizard 1, then Alternative Spell Source will get you in early without much room to quibble, except for the fact that it's Dragon Mag content -- that alone is quibbleable.

[Darrin]

That already seems somewhat innately cheesy, but assuming it works (by RAW it seems to), would such character (e.g. Wizard 3/Druid 1/Mystic Theurge 1) lose the benefits of his prestige class once he leaves his sanctum (since he is no longer able to cast 2nd level Divine spells)?


The argument for this working would say the spellcaster can return to his sanctum to cast 2nd level spells, so the spellcaster still qualifies. Whether or not the DM accepts this as legal is still a bit of a tossup (some do, some don't), but assuming the DM allows Sanctum Spell to work initially, it would be something of a smudge of bad faith against the DM's character if they subsequently declared that it stops working once you leave the sanctum. If you do run into such a DM, planting a tree in your sanctum and casting acorn of far travel (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a) might provide a temporary work-around until you can rehabilitate or replace the DM.



Would the situation be different if he were Wizard 3/Druid 1/Mystic Theurge 4?

There are several methods where a Mystic Theurge could continue to adventure and gain XP while never leaving their sanctum, but it would likely still be contingent on having a DM with some sense of cooperation and coherent reasoning.

[Goaty14]

Depends.

If hierophant is from Complete Warrior or Complete Arcane, then you lose the benefits of the PrC when outside your sanctum, from a purely RAW perspective.

It definitely varies by table, though. Some DMs will impose the "you must always qualify" restriction on all PrCs, in CW or CArc or not, and some might ignore that rule altogether.

:shrug:

[HouseRules]

Worse is a DM that takes it literally.
Arcane Hierophant requires Trackless Step class feature.
Bamboo Spirit Folk has it as a racial feature.
Thus, they would ban Bamboo Spirit Folk from Arcane Hierophant entirely because the character cannot role-play the source correctly. Bamboo Spirit Folk Characters cannot prove they have the feature from a class if their entire race has the feature.

Usually, not meeting the prerequisite afterwards would mean the character cannot progress further into the prestige class just like not meeting the prerequisite for Feats makes then nonfunctional.

Dragon Disciple is okay since the Dragon Template occurs on the last level, so characters cannot get an 11th level for Dragon Disciple. The problem becomes an Epic Rules Problem, since the 11th level of Dragon Disciple is an Epic Level.

[DarkSoul]

Have you talked to the DM to make sure early entry tricks are alright? Some DM's might not allow them at all.

As for your question, that's going to be up to the DM as well. Some might say you lose PrC features if you don't have the prerequisites, some might not. Having more levels in Mystic Theurge probably wouldn't change much unless you can justify having spent three levels in your sanctum.

[RaiKirah]

The way I interpret the Sanctum Spell issue is that you don't lose class features (subject to the usual CWar caveat), but if you level up outside your Sanctum you can't qualify for the PrC and thus can't take another level of it. As others have said, you can get around this with Illumian and Improved Sigil (Krau). If you are ok with Setting Specific content, Southern Magician can let you qualify in the same manner as Alternate Spell Source.

[bean illus]

It really depends on the optimization level at your table. Truth is, double 9s is so powerful that the other characters need to be par.

[Nifft]

The way I interpret the Sanctum Spell issue is that you don't lose class features (subject to the usual CWar caveat), but if you level up outside your Sanctum you can't qualify for the PrC and thus can't take another level of it.

The trouble with Sanctum Spell is that it only modifies the spell level at the time of casting, unlike Heighten which modifies the spell level upon preparation, allowing you to walk around all day with a higher-level spell able to be cast -- or modifies a castable spell constantly in potentia, if you've got spontaneous slots.

If your DM allows "at the time of casting" bonus effects to qualify for PCs, then Eldritch Corruption (Heroes of Horror) is significantly better than Sanctum Spell -- but there are also optional spell components which do the same thing for a few GP instead of a feat, so just buy some cheese.

I think the optional spell components usually don't work, and I think the reason they don't work is because getting a Heighten effect only when you cast the spell itself isn't sufficient for PrC prereqs -- and furthermore, I think this disqualifies Sanctum Spell from ever working, or if it's legal then that means cheaper, better options are also available.

[OgresAreCute]

I don't think being outside of your Sanctum is that big of a deal. I've never seen anyone claim a sorcerer who's out of spells slots can't qualify for "able to cast 3rd level spells" anymore. Access to spell slots is every bit as fleeting/temporary/inconsistent/whatever as access to your Sanctum.

[Particle_Man]

One I like for Sapphire Hierophant (cleric 3/incarnate 1/ hierophant X) is not even cheesy - it uses stuff that is all either core or in the same book, Magic of Incarnum, that the Sapphire Hierophant comes in, and is thematic to the character concept.

Human. Cleric domains: Law, Incarnum (gives Incarnate spell-shaping as free feat). The Law domain is a prerequisite, and the Incarnum domain seems perfectly thematically appropriate.

Feats: 1. Extend Spell, Midnight Metamagic (gives +1 essentia), Incarnate Spell-Shaping (gives +1 essentia))
3. Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt - since Blink Dogs (that the shirt emulates) are lawful beings, and Sapphire Hierophants are all about serving Law, this is thematically appropriate). And hey, at-will short-range teleportation at level three!

So you get 1 level of incarnate for 2 souldmelds and 1 essentia, and add your feats to get a total of 3 soulmelds and 3 essentia, thus meeting the prerequisites for the class.

You even get some use out of the Law domain, as a level one cleric, since you can cast Summon Monster I to get a lawful critter that lasts 4 rounds, which is amazing at level 1. To bad it is only 1x/day, but even so! Also, Midnight Metamagic is one of the few feats that "frees up" essentia into your essential pool once the spell associated with its associated metamagic feat is cast, instead of locking it away for 24 hours. Also, at very high levels there is a power but short-duration spell on the incarnum domain spell list that is begging for the extend spell feat (a la midnight metamagic) to be used on it, since it maxed out all your soulmelds for a short while (three rounds?).

Anyhow, this is a long way of saying you can get to SH by level 5, sans any cheese at all (not even blue cheese).

Now you do lose out on not being able to bind soul melds, but at high levels there are spells to handle that, not to mention other feats.

Oh, and you also worship a giant blue talking rock and live in mortal terror of Captain James T. Kirk logicing it into self-destruction. ;)

Now whether the other stuff earlier in the thread would let you go cleric 1/incarnate 2/SH X or cleric 2/incarnate 1/SH X is your call, but would at the very least seem to require going beyond core + magic of incarnum.