I think there can be trans characters [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Lacuna Caster

2018-10-07, 06:14 AM

If the stickverse is a "super accepting place," then we should be more likely to hear about trans characters, because trans characters would not have to work extra hard to hide their trans status.
I'm actually a little confused as to why the belt of gender-changing would be so generally offensive to trans individuals? I mean, given the costs of hormone therapy and surgical reassignment that many are willing to undergo, a magic item that allowed you to simply jump to the end result might be a godsend. I dunno. Is that 'trivialising the struggle', or something?

Exactly how 'super accepting' the stickverse might be is debatable- this seems to vary with local culture in ways that are not obviously historical- but unless you're talking about simple cross-dressing there is also the question of how accessible gender-bending is. By default the average wage for commoners is one silver piece per day, so magic items and services (alter self? polymorph?) might not be trivial to come by.

hamishspence

2018-10-07, 06:25 AM

I'm actually a little confused as to why the belt of gender-changing would be so generally offensive to trans individuals? I mean, given the costs of hormone therapy and surgical reassignment that many are willing to undergo, a magic item that allowed you to simply jump to the end result might be a godsend. I dunno. Is that 'trivialising the struggle', or something?

Pretty much - especially since it was used for comedy the first time round:

2.) Back when Roy put on the belt of gender-swapping, I went to a convention. At that convention, I met a man who told me that he had enjoyed the comic up until recently. I asked him what had changed. He told me that he, himself, was transgendered, and he found the inclusion of the "cursed" magic item offensive, that the idea of gender-swapping should not be used for comedy, and that it had permanently reduced his opinion of the comic.

I was shocked, because it had never occurred to me that anyone would see it as any sort of allegory for real-world transsexuals. It was an overtly magical situation, based on a magic item that already existed in the source material, that was forced on a character with no inclination toward it. In the same way that I would not have expected that one of the characters being paralyzed by a ghoul would be offensive to people who are quadriplegic. But maybe it is. At any rate, the situation surprised me and has, most likely, contributed to my gunshy nature about LGBT issues in the comic.

martianmister

2018-10-07, 07:05 AM

For all we know, even characters like Belkar could be trans, since we never seen their past lives.

RainbowCloakBun

2018-10-07, 07:32 AM

If the stickverse is a "super accepting place," then we should be more likely to hear about trans characters, because trans characters would not have to work extra hard to hide their trans status.

I don't believe that 'super accepting place' means 'we as an audience see that someone is trans'. Sure, they wouldn't have to hide their trans status, but they also wouldn't have to advertise it. In a truly neutral world, it would just be a feature about someone, like their hair color, and whether you learn it or not wouldn't matter.

Because of the fact that, unlike hair color, this feature is one that theoretically exists only as an event that has happened to you (along the lines of "I saw the president in person"), the only way you would know it is if they told you. And if there's no plot-relevant or character-building reason to say it, I don't believe anyone will say it, and no one will be any the wiser.

Following that, I don't think it's likely to be plot-relevant or character building. Character building is an attempt to distinguish them from other people, and I frankly don't see "I used to be a man" as something that tells you anything about who they are. Plot-relevancy opens up a whole can of worms that I don't think the giant would prefer to go into, and so unless he decides to use it as a way to directly appeal to some readers, I don't find it very likely that we will see anyone who, within the story, is directly stated to be trans.

The Pilgrim

2018-10-07, 07:43 AM

In a world where polymorphing magic is on the table, transgender issues are bound to be less an issue than in our world.

Dr.Zero

2018-10-07, 07:58 AM

Yet forced marriages still a thing.

Agreed, more or less: I don't think it is a matter of "the world being super accepting...", like a world where everyone is free to be what one likes, but more the author giving for granted that in the stickverse sexuality (as ethnicity) is a minor issue, bordering on non-existent one. Which is kinda justified because...

In a world where polymorphing magic is on the table, transgender issues are bound to be less an issue than in our world.

...this.
Heck, for what we know, maybe the ogre wore that belt on purpose.

Lacuna Caster

2018-10-07, 08:06 AM

In a world where polymorphing magic is on the table, transgender issues are bound to be less an issue than in our world.

...this.
Heck, for what we know, maybe the ogre wore that belt on purpose.
Again, this depends on exactly how hi or lo-magic ootsverse generally is. Something that might be trivial for mid-level PCs and affordable for wealthy aristocrats could be borderline-miraculous for the bulk of commoners. (I mean, logically, if 5th-level magic is generally available, merchants should be teleporting everywhere rather than bothering with ships and wagons, and you don't really see that in OOTS.)

Kish

2018-10-07, 08:49 AM

If the stickverse is a "super accepting place," then we should be more likely to hear about trans characters, because trans characters would not have to work extra hard to hide their trans status.
However, in light of the level of magic involved, there's no reason trans characters would need to actively hide it. Nearly every character on the comic could easily have been born with different anatomy than they have now, and the readers would never know it if they didn't spell it out.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-07, 10:45 AM

For all we know, just about any minor character could be trans. And since it's not something that comes up in a casual conversation, we'll never know.

Does it really matter to the story if we never see a confirmed trans character? I think not.

I think it's an important point to make that the existance of headcannons does not make a piece of fiction automatically a haven for representation. what I'm saying isn't that there could be trans people in the ootsverse, this isn't a headcannon comment, I'm saying that I believe that rich could include representation for the trans community even though he made some mistakes in the past.

that opinion that it doesn't matter if we see a confirmed trans character sucks. cause representation is really important. seeing someone in media who you can look at and say, "wow, they're like me and also awesome, maybe I'm awesome too"

as i said in the original post, I don't blame rich for being gunshy, and I appreciate that he doesn't want to continue making mistakes, or doesn't know how to change what's been done, alls i'm saying is that i think it's ok to show a side character is trans just to show solidarity and representation.

I mean, V and Inky are Genderqueer.

that's a super good point. I love that they are who they are, that feeds into my love of the comic. but that's not what I meant.

However, in light of the level of magic involved, there's no reason trans characters would need to actively hide it. Nearly every character on the comic could easily have been born with different anatomy than they have now, and the readers would never know it if they didn't spell it out.

there can always be reasons why not to do it, doesn't change the fact that inclusion would be cool.

The Pilgrim

2018-10-07, 01:12 PM

Again, this depends on exactly how hi or lo-magic ootsverse generally is. Something that might be trivial for mid-level PCs and affordable for wealthy aristocrats could be borderline-miraculous for the bulk of commoners. (I mean, logically, if 5th-level magic is generally available, merchants should be teleporting everywhere rather than bothering with ships and wagons, and you don't really see that in OOTS.)

It doesn't matters if it is available for commoners, as long as it is for the people with the power and money to develope and mantain the cultural framework of their societies.

In such a world, being a transgender may be an issue for a commoner, because said commoner lacks the resources to get the proper magics. But not because being transgender itself is an issue. The traditions of that society have already become used to see wealthy people change genders at will.

Rrmcklin

2018-10-07, 01:29 PM

On the whole gender switching belt, wasn't there a whole thing about how you couldn't take it off and it had to be magically removed? Pretty sure that'd be an issue in real life, even for people who would like to change their biological sex.

As for the question of the thread, yeah, there could be trans character, but the author has decided he's "poisoned the well" on that front. I don't actually agree with that, but it's his decision to make. Just take solace in the fact that he's said in his next work he'll include trans characters in that.

While I get being disappointed it's not in his current work, if you like his writing, that should at least be somewhat reassuring.

But it also kind of leaves me wondering what the point of this thread actually even is?

ArkenBrony

2018-10-07, 01:52 PM

On the whole gender switching belt, wasn't there a whole thing about how you couldn't take it off and it had to be magically removed? Pretty sure that'd be an issue in real life, even for people who would like to change their biological sex.

As for the question of the thread, yeah, there could be trans character, but the author has decided he's "poisoned the well" on that front. I don't actually agree with that, but it's his decision to make. Just take solace in the fact that he's said in his next work he'll include trans characters in that.

While I get disappointed it's not in this current one, if you like his writing, that should at least be somewhat reassuring.

But it also kind of leaves me wondering what's the point of this thread actually even is?

The point of this thread was just to say that I don’t think the well is poisoned. I think there can still be opportunities for representation

RatElemental

2018-10-07, 01:58 PM

Rrmcklin

2018-10-07, 01:59 PM

The point of this thread was just to say that I don’t think the well is poisoned. I think there can still be opportunities for representation

I mean, that still seems pretty pointless than then, if I'm being honest. It's basically preaching to the choir.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-07, 02:10 PM

I mean, that still seems pretty pointless than then, if I'm being honest. It's basically preaching to the choir.

Did you just post this to criticize making a thread? Nothing matters, why talk to people, why ever state opinions?

Rrmcklin

2018-10-07, 02:14 PM

I mean, I didn't just "criticize" I gave my perspective while also admitting I don't really get why this, specific thread, actually exists.

That's different from "why talk about anything" ever. There's no room for speculation or anything with this.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-07, 02:15 PM

People frequently post opinions to the thread. That’s all I’m doing

Rrmcklin

2018-10-07, 02:16 PM

You also seem to be getting fairly defensive...

Rrmcklin

2018-10-07, 02:27 PM

I have to agree, I don't think the giant has ruined anything on this front. I even had a similar situation come up in a game I run recently: The party found a (non-cursed) ring that switches the physical sex of anyone who wears it while its worn. They gave it to one of the character's trans brother (now sister).

It just seems like the obvious practical application of the magic, and if anything the item being "cursed" is a minor inconvenience or even benefit for someone who actually wants the effect. But maybe it only seems obvious to me because of how quickly I'd jump at the chance to have one.

Pretty sure the curse is from the fact that most people would not want the effect. That there are people who would is more like a happy accident than anything else.

As for whether that trivializes actual trans peoples stories... I honestly can't say, and your opinion is more valuable than mine on the subject.

I believe the reason he considers the well poisoned, was because a trans (ex) fan told him they stopped reading because of the storyline. So, really, all it says that even people in similar situations can react to things differently. Which should be obvious, but, it often isn't.

RatElemental

2018-10-07, 02:40 PM

Pretty sure the curse is from the fact that most people would not want the effect. That there are people who would is more like a happy accident than anything else.

As for whether that trivializes actual trans peoples stories... I honestly can't say, and your opinion is more valuable than mine on the subject.

I believe the reason he considers the well poisoned, was because a trans (ex) fan told him they stopped reading because of the storyline. So, really, all it says that even people in similar situations can react to things differently. Which should be obvious, but, it often isn't.

In 3.5 an item being cursed only really means you can't take it off without using special magic. It usually comes with a negative effect hence the curse being used to force you to not just take it back off, but it doesn't inherently have to.

I don't know, maybe my view of the word "curse" is nonstandard too because of how much I used to play nethack. There are some items in that that you want to be cursed when you use them because they have unique and useful effects while cursed.

I am aware of why the giant thinks he's ruined things, and I'm not sure how I feel about the storyline itself. It's been a long while since I read it and that was before I'd fully realized. Maybe I should revisit it.

Rrmcklin

2018-10-07, 02:43 PM

Huh, I was not aware of that specific from 3.5. To be perfectly honest, my D&D knowledge all basically comes from this series, and the forums that discuss it.

The Pilgrim

2018-10-07, 04:00 PM

On the whole gender switching belt, wasn't there a whole thing about how you couldn't take it off and it had to be magically removed? Pretty sure that'd be an issue in real life, even for people who would like to change their biological sex

Okey, let's clarify something here...

Back there in the beggining of D&D, regarding cursed items, the rule was not that you couldn't remove them, but that your character didn't want to stop using them.

The trick with a cursed sword, for example, was not that it was glued to the hands of your character, meaning he/she had to eat with the other hand and sleep holding the sword. The trick was that you character liked the sword and believed he/she was a better swordsman with it and that it was the best magic sword in the world and couldn't be convienced in any way to stop using it. Unless someone cast "remove curse" on him/her. That was standard definition up until at least AD&D 2nd Edition, if my poor memory serves. (Maybe it was just in Basic and was dropped after it)

Problem was, of course, that players would find a way to justify his/her character dropping the cursed item "by accident".

Hence, the convention that "you can't take off a cursed item". It simplifies things a lot.

Regarding the Belt? In a "real" world it wouldn't work like "you can't take it off". It would work like "you like that belt and want to wear it in all occassions. Of course, you can remove it to take a shower, but you will run to put it back as soon as possible, because the curse makes you truly believe that being of the opposite sex suits you better".

Now, the OOTS being a self-aware fantasy parody, the Giant played the trope straight. That arc would have had to be played very different if Roy had been acting like liking the belt and the gender change.

Riftwolf

2018-10-08, 01:24 AM

Thor: right, now all that expositions over, back to Valhalla for you b- huh. I've got a call waiting on your resurrect, Durkon. Looks like I was talking for quite a while.
Durkon: Aye, but at least ye took us to the Astral Plane t' keep it visually int'restin'.
Thor: I mean, I thought it'd take half a book to... Oh well, no matter, off you go, save the world, think about what I've said, all that...
Durkon: *pop*
Thor: OK Minrah, now he's gone, you and me can talk privately. See, in the afterlife, your soul can take on whatever form you want. You just look that way because you remember your old body. But in Valalla, everyone is remade. The old become young, the frail become strong... Even those who've never been at ease with themselves get remade to what their mind always wanted them to be.
Minrah: You mean!?
Thor: normally it takes a while to forget ypur physical self, but seeing as you went above and beyond in my service, I guess I can speed things up a bit.
(Thor hands Minrah a mirror. When she looks into it, her reflection is that of a young blonde male, with full dwarven beard. In the next panel, Minrah is now that male dwarf)
Minrah: I-I cannae...
Thor: (hands Minrah a hammer) You don't have to thank me, Minrah. This is just what I do. Now go join your fellow dwarves in my hall; it's ribs night, so you might want to pick up a bib.

Linneris

2018-10-08, 04:44 AM

Just because a fantasy universe has magic items that produce results undesirable for most people but desirable for a small portion of the population doesn't mean it trivializes the plight of these people in real life, any more than healing spells trivialize the plight of people with crippling injuries and diseases in real life.

Full disclosure: I'm one of these people. I transitioned years ago, and it's not that I'm actively hiding it, it's just not something that ever comes up in a conversation, except with people who already know (close friends, family, boss, and my LGBT support group). I mean, why would you ever talk to a stranger about it? Even if Rich wanted to establish an OOTS character being trans, I don't see a way to establish it to the readers through a casual mention, the way Bandana was casually and in passing established as not being straight. And people complained to no end about that, even though such a passing, no-big-deal mention of a same-sex partner is exactly what I personally would expect from the fairly egalitarian world portrayed in the comic. And anything more than a casual mention would be perceived as Rich pushing irrelevant political agenda into the story, almost certainly involving accusations using a three-letter acronym that shalt not be used in a polite and civil discourse.

As for the belt storyline, I have no problem with its premise - a character using a magical sex-changing item as a disguise. I do have issues with how it was handled, especially Haley's stream of misogynist insults and the cringeworthy mention of getting emotional from hormones. But I think Roy's reaction to his predicament was entirely believable given his established personality, and I think Rich deserves credit for 1) using this episode as an opportunity for Roy's character growth rather than just random humor, and 2) Durkon actually asking Roy if he would like to change back, instead of just taking it as self-evident that he would. I have full confidence that if Rich was to write a storyline around that belt today, he would handle it far more tactfully and believably than he did when he was younger and less experienced.

_______
Edit:

Regarding the Belt? In a "real" world it wouldn't work like "you can't take it off". It would work like "you like that belt and want to wear it in all occassions. Of course, you can remove it to take a shower, but you will run to put it back as soon as possible, because the curse makes you truly believe that being of the opposite sex suits you better".

See, if the comic went that route, I'd be complaining, because that would indeed be trivializing a real-life issue by treating it like an irrational whim. Instead Rich went with a more sensible 3rd edition definition. Though even the 3.5 SRD has cursed items that function under the premise of mentally realigning the wearer; the Helm of Opposite Alignment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#helmofOppositeAlignment) in particular strikes me as something that simply can't exist in OOTS, which treats alignment as innate to one's personality and life experience and explicitly defies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0957.html) the idea that a person can drastically change on the inside in an instant.

_______
Edit 2:

<Thor/Minrah conversation>

An interesting idea, but a problematic one. Even if we accept that the name Minrah is applicable to both genders* and is the name the character is comfortable using, and even if we presume that society forced Minrah to present as female (and Sigdi's level of acceptance is unusual for dwarven society as a whole), I doubt that Thor, as established, would call Minrah's gender identity "that thing you've been worried about for a while that you'd rather I not say out loud in front of Durkon". On the contrary, under the premise presented in your dialogue, the Thor we've been shown would address Minrah as a he right from the start and explain the situation to Durkon.

That, and I think that Thor forcing the change of Minrah's post-mortem self-image would be inconsistent with both the "instant drastic mental changes are impossible" theme and the already-established precedent for one's afterlife self-image taking time to adjust. Incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if in the OOTS afterlife, newly-dead secretly-trans people would immediately assume their desired appearance, since that's how they conceptualized themselves in life.

* Nitpicker's corner: both genders by the standard of a binary society.

hroþila

2018-10-08, 05:12 AM

the cringeworthy mention of getting emotional from hormones.
Personally, I took that as "I'm not used to the hormones because they're new to me personally, but once I got used to them after a little while it wouldn't have made a difference", but I see how it could be interpreted the way you do, especially given our cultural baggage with female hormones.

The Pilgrim

2018-10-08, 05:37 AM

See, if the comic went that route, I'd be complaining, because that would indeed be trivializing a real-life issue by treating it like an irrational whim.

The premise would just be a curse forcing someone to want something that person wouldn't normally want. I fail to see how that would be much different in "ofensiveness" than the premise already presented in the comic (that being temporaly forced into a sex change is a terrible inconvenience for a person). The story would have been offensive to certaing groups or not depending on how that premise would have been handled.

Mightymosy

2018-10-08, 05:42 AM

Is it actually a point of discussion whether hormones can change the way people feel, think and act?

Linneris

2018-10-08, 05:46 AM

I fail to see how that would be much different in "ofensiveness" than the premise already presented in the comic.
Because "it's just an irrational whim, drop it already" is a common way to discredit and trivialize trans people's situation in real life, whereas "my body's sex doesn't fit me and I want it to be the other one" (which is what Roy felt after donning the belt) is a common way that trans people actually feel.

The Pilgrim

2018-10-08, 05:50 AM

Because "it's just an irrational whim, drop it already" is a common way to discredit and trivialize trans people's situation in real life, whereas "my body's sex doesn't fit me and I want it to be the other one" (which is what Roy felt after donning the belt) is a common way that trans people actually feel.

But the premised presented wouldn't be an irrational whim. It would be magic forces trying to force a person believe he should be confortable with a body whose sex doesn't fits him/her. Just like social pressure in the real world tries to force transgender persons to believe they should be Ok with the sex of their body.

RainbowCloakBun

2018-10-08, 06:26 AM

Do we really need allegories for real life, though?

Riftwolf

2018-10-08, 06:37 AM

An interesting idea, but a problematic one. Even if we accept that the name Minrah is applicable to both genders* and is the name the character is comfortable using, and even if we presume that society forced Minrah to present as female (and Sigdi's level of acceptance is unusual for dwarven society as a whole), I doubt that Thor, as established, would call Minrah's gender identity "that thing you've been worried about for a while that you'd rather I not say out loud in front of Durkon". On the contrary, under the premise presented in your dialogue, the Thor we've been shown would address Minrah as a he right from the start and explain the situation to Durkon.

That, and I think that Thor forcing the change of Minrah's post-mortem self-image would be inconsistent with both the "instant drastic mental changes are impossible" theme and the already-established precedent for one's afterlife self-image taking time to adjust. Incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if in the OOTS afterlife, newly-dead secretly-trans people would immediately assume their desired appearance, since that's how they conceptualized themselves in life.

* Nitpicker's corner: both genders by the standard of a binary society.

I used Minrah because I wasn't sure what male name to give the new persona. I agree it's problematic and unlikely based on the rest of the comic; I was just trying to find a way of writing in a trans character without introducing anyone new. I'm an amateur writer and know it's difficult to write characters outside my (broadening, but admittedly small) experience, especially for something so sensitive as gender dysmorphia, where it's easy to get a lot of things wrong.
But thanks for the feedback.

Also you mention 'Sigdi's level of acceptance'; I'm drawing a blank as to when Sidgi displayed acceptance for an LGBT character?

RatElemental

2018-10-08, 07:07 AM

I used Minrah because I wasn't sure what male name to give the new persona. I agree it's problematic and unlikely based on the rest of the comic; I was just trying to find a way of writing in a trans character without introducing anyone new. I'm an amateur writer and know it's difficult to write characters outside my (broadening, but admittedly small) experience, especially for something so sensitive as gender dysmorphia, where it's easy to get a lot of things wrong.
But thanks for the feedback.

Also you mention 'Sigdi's level of acceptance'; I'm drawing a blank as to when Sidgi displayed acceptance for an LGBT character?

All I really want is fer ye ta grow up an' find a nice gal or fella ta settle down with. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html)

The only real complaint you could level at Sigdi is that she might not be aware of the existence of asexuals, she has shown an amazing level of self-sacrifice, acceptance and or empathy in nearly every panel she's ever been in.

RainbowCloakBun

2018-10-08, 07:09 AM

Also you mention 'Sigdi's level of acceptance'; I'm drawing a blank as to when Sidgi displayed acceptance for an LGBT character?
It doesn't need to be explicitly LGBT to get the point across.

Riftwolf

2018-10-08, 07:22 AM

All I really want is fer ye ta grow up an' find a nice gal or fella ta settle down with. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html)

The only real complaint you could level at Sigdi is that she might not be aware of the existence of asexuals, she has shown an amazing level of self-sacrifice, acceptance and or empathy in nearly every panel she's ever been in.

Missed that the first time round. I wasn't levelling a complaint at Sigdi, just wondering where the evidence of acceptance was. Sometimes I need things spelt out.

Lacuna Caster

2018-10-08, 09:39 AM

It doesn't matters if it is available for commoners, as long as it is for the people with the power and money to develop and mantain the cultural framework of their societies.
To be clear, I'm not saying it would be be at all impossible to bump into a plot-relevant trans NPC within the course of the story, particularly if they're embedded in the PC/aristocrat/clerical classes. There's even historical precedent for this in various real-world cultures. I'm just saying that if being trans is relatively uncommon, it doesn't take an extraordinary explanation for their absence.

...Which is the sort of comment that will probably prompt the author to personally give me both fingers and retroactively declare that, like 70% of all background NPCs have been secretly transsexual all this time and now it is official canon. *sigh*

I do have issues with how it was handled, especially Haley's stream of misogynist insults and the cringeworthy mention of getting emotional from hormones...
That strikes me as being more of the problem there, yes.

An interesting idea, but a problematic one. Even if we accept that the name Minrah is applicable to both genders* and is the name the character is comfortable using, and even if we presume that society forced Minrah to present as female...
At the risk of suggesting that not all aspects of presentation are arbitrary social constructs, you... don't think the inability to grow a beard might present some independent problems there?

Adghar

2018-10-08, 11:27 AM

Is it actually a point of discussion whether hormones can change the way people feel, think and act?

Like hrothila pointed out, it's more an issue with cultural baggage. Large swathes of the US population (though perhaps only a small subset of those swathes would ever stumble upon GITP or OOTS) go to workplaces where female work and opinions are dismissed, interrupted, stolen without credit, etc. with the reason attributed to hormones (and other such misogynistic stereotypes). Said female workers would probably find it in bad form to make light of their situation the way Roy's was presented, even if it is totally fair for Roy to experience radical changes due to being unfamiliar with having estrogen pumped through his body.

Exactly how large said swathes are is up for debate, and most likely nobody will convince anyone otherwise via the internet. There are those who believe said swathes are nearly nonexistent, and there are those who believe such work environments are nearly omnipresent. Perhaps published findings in journals of sociology would sway people's opinions one way or the other, but everyone knows sociology isn't a real science anyways.

woweedd

2018-10-08, 12:11 PM

To be clear, I'm not saying it would be be at all impossible to bump into a plot-relevant trans NPC within the course of the story, particularly if they're embedded in the PC/aristocrat/clerical classes. There's even historical precedent for this in various real-world cultures. I'm just saying that if being trans is relatively uncommon, it doesn't take an extraordinary explanation for their absence.

...Which is the sort of comment that will probably prompt the author to personally give me both fingers and retroactively declare that, like 70% of all background NPCs have been secretly transsexual all this time and now it is official canon. *sigh*

That strikes me as being more of the problem there, yes.

At the risk of suggesting that not all aspects of presentation are arbitrary social constructs, you... don't think the inability to grow a beard might present some independent problems there?
OK, first of all, could you stop with the weird grudge against Rich? And, secondly, no, but there's also no reason why Trans people couldn't exist, with or without clerical magic. They do in the real world. And have forever. Some cultures have conceptions of a "third gender" that, given resemble strongly what what we now know as Transgender people, suggesting that ancient people recognized the phenomenon, and slotted those who had it into a third, separate category. Also, A. ladies with stubble exist and B. we know hair growth potions are a thing. Why not beard growth?

Linneris

2018-10-08, 12:28 PM

...Which is the sort of comment that will probably prompt the author to personally give me both fingers and retroactively declare that, like 70% of all background NPCs have been secretly transsexual all this time and now it is official canon. *sigh*

I don't see Rich saying something like this out of spite, but I think it would totally be his style to say something like: "Statistically speaking, they should be out there. If lack of representation bothers you, just assume some of the background characters were born a different sex. Like, say, <rolls dice> the Fellow Medium-Sized Paladin. There, that's canon now."

Lacuna Caster

2018-10-08, 12:50 PM

OK, first of all, could you stop with the weird grudge against Rich? And, secondly, no, but there's also no reason why Trans people couldn't exist, with or without clerical magic. They do in the real world. And have forever. Some cultures have conceptions of a "third gender" that, given resemble strongly what what we now know as Transgender people...
I am aware of this, and mentioned as much in the post that you just quoted. But that's different from passing/presenting as the opposite sex, and our hypothetical trans-Minrah is visibly and anatomically female. How exactly was she ever going to pose as something 99% of dwarves would recognise as her target gender, particularly in the bedroom, without magical assistance?

ArkenBrony

2018-10-08, 01:30 PM

I am aware of this, and mentioned as much in the post that you just quoted. But that's different from passing/presenting as the opposite sex, and our hypothetical trans-Minrah is visibly and anatomically female. How exactly was she ever going to pose as something 99% of dwarves would recognise as her target gender, particularly in the bedroom, without magical assistance?

I'd really like to push away from this topic of conversation. this is going to some uncomfortable and borderline transphobic places that weren't the intent of this thread.

woweedd

2018-10-08, 01:33 PM

I am aware of this, and mentioned as much in the post that you just quoted. But that's different from passing/presenting as the opposite sex, and our hypothetical trans-Minrah is visibly and anatomically female. How exactly was she ever going to pose as something 99% of dwarves would recognise as her target gender, particularly in the bedroom, without magical assistance?

Um, I thought we were talking about Minrah as a Trans Woman... Either way, lack of passing does not mean she's not Trans, it would just make Transitioning really hard. Also, again, beard-growth potions. I'm sure they exist.

Riftwolf

2018-10-08, 02:40 PM

I'd really like to push away from this topic of conversation. this is going to some uncomfortable and borderline transphobic places that weren't the intent of this thread.

It wasn't the intent of my post either. I was just trying to find a way to work a trans character into the story rather than introduce a new character that, at this late stage of the story, would feel forced at best and tokenistic at worst. I apologise for any offence caused.

Lacuna Caster

2018-10-08, 02:42 PM

I'd really like to push away from this topic of conversation. this is going to some uncomfortable and borderline transphobic places that weren't the intent of this thread.

Um, I thought we were talking about Minrah as a Trans Woman... Either way, lack of passing does not mean she's not Trans, it would just make Transitioning really hard. Also, again, beard-growth potions. I'm sure they exist.
I'm not disputing that. But the implication I'm hearing is that dwarven society shoved trans-Minrah into a particular gender-box for petty or arbitrary reasons. They didn't- biology did. The question is whether dwarven society is willing to pay the medical cost of reworking that biology, which is a separate issue.

Changing attitudes and stereotypes is theoretically cheap- they're just ideas. But paying for, e.g, a potion of beard-growth might cost the equivalent of ten years' income for a typical dirt farmer. The latter may be well worth doing, but you do not strengthen your case by making inconsistent arguments (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bo80o8LfW0&t=1m41s). The dirt farmers might be confused.

woweedd

2018-10-08, 02:46 PM

I'm not disputing that. But the implication I'm hearing is that dwarven society shoved trans-Minrah into a particular gender-box for petty or arbitrary reasons. They didn't- biology did. The question is whether dwarven society is willing to pay the medical cost of reworking that biology, which is a separate issue.

Changing attitudes and stereotypes is theoretically cheap- they're just ideas. But paying for, e.g, a potion of beard-growth might cost the equivalent of ten years' income for a typical dirt farmer. The latter may be well worth doing, but you do not strengthen your case by making inconsistent arguments (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bo80o8LfW0&t=1m41s). The dirt farmers might be confused.
...Where are you getting that impliciation? It seemed pretty straight-forward to me. Trans!Minrah's society doesn't accept him, on the basis of his Transgenderism. They should, and whether or not he can pass or transition has little to do with that. It'd be nice if they payed for it, but it'd be nicer to just accept that he is who he says he is.

Rynael

2018-10-08, 02:48 PM

I don't see Rich saying something like this out of spite, but I think it would totally be his style to say something like: "Statistically speaking, they should be out there. If lack of representation bothers you, just assume some of the background characters were born a different sex. Like, say, <rolls dice> the Fellow Medium-Sized Paladin. There, that's canon now."

Two words: J.K. Rowling.

Three?

Lacuna Caster

2018-10-08, 02:58 PM

...Where are you getting that implication? It seemed pretty straight-forward to me. Trans!Minrah's society doesn't accept him, on the basis of his Transgenderism. They should, and whether or not he cna pas sor transition has little to do with that. It'd be nice if they payed for it, but it'd be nicer to just accept that he is who he says he is.
But what I was hearing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570891-I-think-there-can-be-trans-characters&p=23422583#post23422583) was that trans-Minrah is (hypothetically) not 'allowed to present' as male. My point is that she may not be able to present as male, regardless of whether society allows it or not or how tolerant people are, unless you give her access to magical help. That's the difference.

woweedd

2018-10-08, 02:59 PM

But what I was hearing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570891-I-think-there-can-be-trans-characters&p=23422583#post23422583) was that trans-Minrah is (hypothetically) not 'allowed to present' as male. My point is that she may not be able to present as male, regardless of whether society allows it or not or how tolerant people are, unless you give her access to magical help. That's the difference.
Well, yes but pressenting is a matter of perception, no?

Lacuna Caster

2018-10-08, 03:04 PM

Well, yes but pressenting is a matter of perception, no?
No. If it were just a matter of perception, society could just ask Minrah to alter her own self-perception, and *poof*, her problem would be solved. The fact that Minrah, despite struggling long and hard, cannot do this, can be seen as evidence that something about sexual identity is more than mere perception.

woweedd

2018-10-08, 03:08 PM

No. If it were just a matter of perception, society could just ask Minrah to alter her own self-perception, and *poof*, her problem would be solved. The fact that Minrah, despite struggling long and hard, cannot do this, can be seen as evidence that something about sexual identity is more than mere perception.
OK, forgive me here: what exactly do you believe society should do with Trans!Minrah?

Lacuna Caster

2018-10-08, 03:15 PM

OK, forgive me here: what exactly do you believe society should do with Trans!Minrah?
Pay for the magical help she needs, at least in the event that she can't realistically pay for it herself, and after taking reasonable precautions to ensure that she truly needs it, so you don't waste money or make a hard-to-reverse mistake. And maybe ask her to tell her more overzealous friends to please stop saying there are no intrinsic sex differences, because it's really not helping their case.

Themrys

2018-10-08, 03:29 PM

I mean, V and Inky are Genderqueer.

No. At least of V we know that they don't believe in gender. They view biological sex as completely unimportant when it comes to social roles, as evidenced by a remark made in the prequel, where there's an inkstain on the place on the document where V's sex would be, and V dismisses it as unimportant.

V obviously does not have or need a 'gender identity'. Such things are for mere mortals to be concerned with. V is more busy with wielding arcane powers.

V is, moreoever, utterly incapable of recognizing gender markers. The mop that Roy uses to "disguse as woman" (which is only necessitated by gender roles, as Roy already was turned into a woman by the belt) is visible to those who place importance on gender as "feminine hair", whereas V instantly recognizes it as a mop.

It is rather unlikely that in V's culture, gender is even a thing.

They have (probably) two sexes, who are treated exactly the same in society, which means there is essentially only one "gender", but I don't think elves even have a word for it. They do not seem to have such a thing as grammatical gender in their language, after all.

It is probable that they have words for female and male, in order to be better able to explain to the little elves how more little elves are made, but it apparently doesn't matter anywhere else in their society.

And making Minrah trans? Worst idea ever.

I know some people think that the only two categories that matter are "men" and "non-men", but actually, women also exist and matter, and if you take a much needed female character in a comic with an excess of male characters and say "surprise, she has actually been male all along, but she's trans so that's roughly the same, right?" that's not okay.

Really, really not okay.

Not only would it be insulting to say "hey, one minority is just as good as the other, right?", women aren't even a minority, but over 50% of the world's population.

If you make Minrah trans, you take away representation from women.

At this point in the story, with Minrah already being a somewhat important character, that would be a really nasty thing to do.

Would you suggest that the author should turn around and say that Roy identifies as white? No? Why not?

I agree with Riftwolf in that adding a new transcharacter would feel forced and/or tokenistic. The only characters that ever have their whole backstory explained shortly after they first appear are joke characters like the drow (who had Nale explain how he is not evil, which was apparently a lie, anyway), and you don't want a trans character to be introduced that way, do you?

So ... this comic is almost finished, why not ask Rich Burlew to include a trans character in his next webcomic?

Peelee

2018-10-08, 04:06 PM

Again, this depends on exactly how hi or lo-magic ootsverse generally is. Something that might be trivial for mid-level PCs and affordable for wealthy aristocrats could be borderline-miraculous for the bulk of commoners. (I mean, logically, if 5th-level magic is generally available, merchants should be teleporting everywhere rather than bothering with ships and wagons, and you don't really see that in OOTS.)

Not necessarily. Planes, for instance, exist in our world. They've been around for a while. Most relatively large cities have an airport (at least, in the US. Dunno how common they are elsewhere). They can be and are used to carry cargo. They are significantly faster than ships. Ships, however, are still used to carry the vast, vast majority of cargo worldwide. It's not a question of availability, it's a question of economics. Same could very easily be true of teleporting. Just because it exists and may be readily available doesn't mean that it's commonly used by people we see on-screen. Solt Lorkyurg, for instance, could be the equivalent of the travelling salesman who drives instead of flies because it's cheaper.

Kish

2018-10-08, 04:14 PM

Linneris

2018-10-08, 04:57 PM

No. At least of V we know that they don't believe in gender. They view biological sex as completely unimportant when it comes to social roles, as evidenced by a remark made in the prequel, where there's an inkstain on the place on the document where V's sex would be, and V dismisses it as unimportant.

V obviously does not have or need a 'gender identity'. Such things are for mere mortals to be concerned with. V is more busy with wielding arcane powers.

V is, moreoever, utterly incapable of recognizing gender markers. The mop that Roy uses to "disguse as woman" (which is only necessitated by gender roles, as Roy already was turned into a woman by the belt) is visible to those who place importance on gender as "feminine hair", whereas V instantly recognizes it as a mop.

It is rather unlikely that in V's culture, gender is even a thing.

They have (probably) two sexes, who are treated exactly the same in society, which means there is essentially only one "gender", but I don't think elves even have a word for it. They do not seem to have such a thing as grammatical gender in their language, after all.

This is what I have inferred. Apart from Lirian and Veldrina, who are both clearly female, it seems gender identity isn't really a thing for OOTS elves. Heck, the language apparently just uses the terms "Parent" and "Other Parent" instead of more specific ones.

:vaarsuvius: To be entirely sincere, I have never comprehended the preoccupation with the nether regions in human culture, transcending above and beyond colloquial obscenities and vulgarities built thereupon. Not only are they inconsequential to other discernible qualities that constitute the essence of a person, particularly among those races that have enough common sense not to demarcate their eligibility for animal mating instincts with blatantly obvious visual stimuli, but it appears that other cultures have followed the precedent beset by humans to the point of assigning arbitrary behavior codes to persons assumed to be in possession of a particular type of reproductive anatomy, and it is only fortunate that perpetrators of said moral frameworks do not stretch their dogma to the logical conclusion of inspecting the contents of the undergarments of every stranger they come upon. I can only consider myself fortunate that my native culture takes the sensible approach of keeping this particular issue entirely out of public discourse. Besides, an elf's refined aesthetic sensibilities are best directed to more intellectually stimulating pursuits than carnal pleasures — including, but not limited to, learning to manipulate thermodynamic potentials to release spherical energy projectiles sufficient to incinerate proponents of repressive social constructs.

Rynael

2018-10-08, 05:05 PM

No. At least of V we know that they don't believe in gender. They view biological sex as completely unimportant when it comes to social roles, as evidenced by a remark made in the prequel, where there's an inkstain on the place on the document where V's sex would be, and V dismisses it as unimportant.

V obviously does not have or need a 'gender identity'. Such things are for mere mortals to be concerned with. V is more busy with wielding arcane powers.

V is, moreoever, utterly incapable of recognizing gender markers. The mop that Roy uses to "disguse as woman" (which is only necessitated by gender roles, as Roy already was turned into a woman by the belt) is visible to those who place importance on gender as "feminine hair", whereas V instantly recognizes it as a mop.

It is rather unlikely that in V's culture, gender is even a thing.

They have (probably) two sexes, who are treated exactly the same in society, which means there is essentially only one "gender", but I don't think elves even have a word for it. They do not seem to have such a thing as grammatical gender in their language, after all.

It is probable that they have words for female and male, in order to be better able to explain to the little elves how more little elves are made, but it apparently doesn't matter anywhere else in their society.

For my part, I find the story's treatment of Vaarsuvius as inconsistent as Durkon's Scottish accent. And that's not a serious criticism, because I would no more criticize the Giant for not making Durkon's accent a perfectly-researched representation of real-world Scottish accents, not least because he's a fantasy dwarf from another world. But as an example of the inconsistency, Vaarsuvius always notices gender markers when formally addressing others, or being pedantic. They mostly fail when it's being used for comedy.

Sometimes, elf society is depicted in the way you describe; other times, like with Lirian, it does not seem to be. It's possible that, in spite of the way she presents, Lirian has no concept of gender, but I don't see any indications other than "other elves don't," which would be a circular argument in this case.

Personally, I think that the question, "is Vaarsuvius genderqueer?" ends up having a lot less to do with Vaarsuvius and more to do with the meaning of the word "genderqueer." We know how Vaarsuvius feels, there's little argument to be brooked there. If the consensus is that it was the wrong word, that doesn't much affect the purpose of the "genderqueer elf" line, which was that characters who present like Vaarsuvius, and who have V's perspective on the issues of gender, are much less common in major roles in fiction than characters with Elan's and Roy's.

Riftwolf

2018-10-08, 05:09 PM

ArkenBrony

2018-10-08, 05:28 PM

And making Minrah trans? Worst idea ever.

I know some people think that the only two categories that matter are "men" and "non-men", but actually, women also exist and matter, and if you take a much needed female character in a comic with an excess of male characters and say "surprise, she has actually been male all along, but she's trans so that's roughly the same, right?" that's not okay.

Really, really not okay.

Not only would it be insulting to say "hey, one minority is just as good as the other, right?", women aren't even a minority, but over 50% of the world's population.

If you make Minrah trans, you take away representation from women.

At this point in the story, with Minrah already being a somewhat important character, that would be a really nasty thing to do.

Would you suggest that the author should turn around and say that Roy identifies as white? No? Why not?

I agree with Riftwolf in that adding a new transcharacter would feel forced and/or tokenistic. The only characters that ever have their whole backstory explained shortly after they first appear are joke characters like the drow (who had Nale explain how he is not evil, which was apparently a lie, anyway), and you don't want a trans character to be introduced that way, do you?

So ... this comic is almost finished, why not ask Rich Burlew to include a trans character in his next webcomic?

wow... i don't know what to say to this... but saying you can't have a trans man because it's taking away female representation is horribly offensive. and comparing a trans character to someone declaring they're a different race is also bad.

there are definitely ways to have a character be trans without making it tokenistic or forced, there's an entire book left in the series, it's totally an option.

I look forward to the future when rich feels comfortable including trans characters, and don't blam him for being a little gun-shy, but hat you are saying, that I should be fine with 0 representation for likely the next several years of this comic is awful.

It wasn't the intent of my post either. I was just trying to find a way to work a trans character into the story rather than introduce a new character that, at this late stage of the story, would feel forced at best and tokenistic at worst. I apologise for any offence caused.

I appreciate your apology, I was more specifically talking about the posts trying to argue why being trans wouldn't work. but thank you

Liquor Box

2018-10-08, 05:49 PM

For my part, I find the story's treatment of Vaarsuvius as inconsistent as Durkon's Scottish accent. And that's not a serious criticism, because I would no more criticize the Giant for not making Durkon's accent a perfectly-researched representation of real-world Scottish accents, not least because he's a fantasy dwarf from another world. But as an example of the inconsistency, Vaarsuvius always notices gender markers when formally addressing others, or being pedantic. They mostly fail when it's being used for comedy.

Sometimes, elf society is depicted in the way you describe; other times, like with Lirian, it does not seem to be. It's possible that, in spite of the way she presents, Lirian has no concept of gender, but I don't see any indications other than "other elves don't," which would be a circular argument in this case.

This may not be an inconsistency in the writing, but rather that the real situation is somewhere between "elves don't care about gender at all" and "elves care about gender as much as real world humans". If the truth of Rich's world was somewhere between, would that resolve the inconsistency you see? Might it be that Elves generally care about gender, but that V's own family do not (and are therefore outliers in elven society)?

Emanick

2018-10-08, 06:38 PM

The truth might be as simple as “some elves care about gender and some don’t.” I don’t know what a society like that would look like, since gender is in large part a social construct, but it’s not necessarily an incoherent idea.

Rich has referred to V as genderqueer, by the way, so the term isn’t baseless.

And I’d like to second the argument that objecting to a female character being trans on the basis that there are too few women in OOTS already is pretty messed up. Women need more representation, yes, but trans folks have that problem times ten. More, really.

Liquor Box

2018-10-08, 06:54 PM

The truth might be as simple as “some elves care about gender and some don’t.” I don’t know what a society like that would look like, since gender is in large part a social construct, but it’s not necessarily an incoherent idea.

I'm not as well versed in the OotS world as some, but do all elves come from a single society? If not, it may be that one elven society values gender, and another does not. I still think that elves generally caring about gender, but V's family not caring also fits.

Emanick

2018-10-08, 06:56 PM

I'm not as well versed in the OotS world as some, but do all elves come from a single society? If not, it may be that one elven society values gender, and another does not. I still think that elves generally caring about gender, but V's family not caring also fits.

The implication is that they do, but I guess it’s possible that there are offshoots from the main “Elven Lands” with different traditions.

Fyraltari

2018-10-08, 06:59 PM

I'm not as well versed in the OotS world as some, but do all elves come from a single society?
Yes

:vaarsuvius: Honestly, I'm not even sure I've ever understood the point of human nations in the first place. I say, i's about time those humans got their act together and formed one world government, like grown-ups. You don't see the gnomes running around fighting wars with each other, do you? No, because they're civilized.

Unless you count the Drow as Elves, I guess.

The Extinguisher

2018-10-08, 07:04 PM

Aidan

2018-10-08, 07:52 PM

The idea that its too late for a trans character to be introduced is incredibly shaky. Its really easy. The next time you need to introduce a new character. Make them trans. There, done. Nothing to it.

What matters more than should Rich introduce a trans character is : Does Rich want to introduce a trans character. After the arc with the Belt of Masculinity/Feminity, I think that Rich just doesn't want to try doing so after that mistake.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-08, 08:13 PM

What matters more than should Rich introduce a trans character is : Does Rich want to introduce a trans character. After the arc with the Belt of Masculinity/Feminity, I think that Rich just doesn't want to try doing so after that mistake.

the point i'm saying with this thread isn't that he should, i'm saying that he can. he's stated he's concerned about it and i'm trying to say that it's worth a shot. I will keep saying I do not begrudge the Giant for his decision.

Peelee

2018-10-08, 08:23 PM

The idea that its too late for a trans character to be introduced is incredibly shaky. Its really easy. The next time you need to introduce a new character. Make them trans. There, done. Nothing to it.

I remember being greatly amused one time by someone claiming that everyone in the comic could conceivably be trans, because it's fantasy baby!

I like that person. Makes good points. Quality forumite.

The Extinguisher

2018-10-08, 08:37 PM

What matters more than should Rich introduce a trans character is : Does Rich want to introduce a trans character. After the arc with the Belt of Masculinity/Feminity, I think that Rich just doesn't want to try doing so after that mistake.

I generally disagree. I feel like pretty much any body of work is improved by trying to do the things that you should do, even if you dont want to. Taking a step out of your comfort zone for the sake of others is incredibly important especially when its so easy to do so

I remember being greatly amused one time by someone claiming that everyone in the comic could conceivably be trans, because it's fantasy baby!

I like that person. Makes good points. Quality forumite.

I dunno, sounds like kinda a jerk to me.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-08, 08:50 PM

I remember being greatly amused one time by someone claiming that everyone in the comic could conceivably be trans, because it's fantasy baby!

I like that person. Makes good points. Quality forumite.

While it's a cool thing to be able to headcannon, and lord knows I do this a lot, it isn't a replacement for real representation

RatElemental

2018-10-08, 11:30 PM

Aidan

2018-10-08, 11:36 PM

Am I alone in my opinion that there's no real imperative that the Giant (or anyone) include a trans character in their work at all? :smallconfused:

I get it that good representations are cool to have, but that's just it, good representation. Not every writer has the experience, knowledge, or confidence to write a character of a certain demographic well. forcing the giant out of his comfort zone because he "should" have a trans character is more likely to result in a bad trans character if you ask me.

I agree with that. I think that if Rich wants to make a trans character as a representation of that group, he can go ahead, but given his desire not to have a repeat of the belt incident, he is unlikely to do so.

As others have mentioned, in the stick verse it may just be a complete non-issue as there exists several ways to magically solve the problem. Therefore Rich may not feel that there is even a storytelling need to bring it up.

Liquor Box

2018-10-08, 11:56 PM

Am I alone in my opinion that there's no real imperative that the Giant (or anyone) include a trans character in their work at all? :smallconfused:

I get it that good representations are cool to have, but that's just it, good representation. Not every writer has the experience, knowledge, or confidence to write a character of a certain demographic well. forcing the giant out of his comfort zone because he "should" have a trans character is more likely to result in a bad trans character if you ask me.

You're not alone. The Giant can whatever story with whatever characters he wants. Not having trans characters may make it less popular amongst people who prefer there to be trans characters, but I don't think the Giant would be too concerned about that.

Especially true where with respect to all but a handful of characters, you would never know if they were trans or not.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-09, 12:23 AM

a lot of you seem to feel the need to defend Rich. I get that. I don't want this to be a thread about what rich is doing wrong. he's doing an amazing job and this story is awesome. but just to set the record straight, rich is a good enough writer that he could definitely write a character to be trans in a way that didn't feel stereotyped, mean spirited, or token. he's gun shy about doing it, as he's said, for understandeable reasons. if rich didn't include a single trans character in Oots, i'd be a little upset, but it's not a problem specifically.

but I believe, 100%, that if rich decided to do it, he could. we can all talk about how hard it is to write about minority groups and that it's better to not try at all than to do a bad job, something i disagree with to begin with, we're talking about someone ho has told one of the most compelling and interesting stories I've ever read.

maybe you believe that it's not important to include a trans character, but if that is your opinion, i would kindly request you keep that to yourself, because to people like me it matters a lot.

You're not alone. The Giant can whatever story with whatever characters he wants. Not having trans characters may make it less popular amongst people who prefer there to be trans characters, but I don't think the Giant would be too concerned about that.

he probably wouldn't care about the popularity, but i'm sure that if he could snap his finger and have good trans representation, he would. not for the popularity, but for the import of doing it

Liquor Box

2018-10-09, 04:15 AM

a lot of you seem to feel the need to defend Rich. I get that. I don't want this to be a thread about what rich is doing wrong. he's doing an amazing job and this story is awesome. but just to set the record straight, rich is a good enough writer that he could definitely write a character to be trans in a way that didn't feel stereotyped, mean spirited, or token. he's gun shy about doing it, as he's said, for understandeable reasons. if rich didn't include a single trans character in Oots, i'd be a little upset, but it's not a problem specifically.

but I believe, 100%, that if rich decided to do it, he could. we can all talk about how hard it is to write about minority groups and that it's better to not try at all than to do a bad job, something i disagree with to begin with, we're talking about someone ho has told one of the most compelling and interesting stories I've ever read.

maybe you believe that it's not important to include a trans character, but if that is your opinion, i would kindly request you keep that to yourself, because to people like me it matters a lot.

he probably wouldn't care about the popularity, but i'm sure that if he could snap his finger and have good trans representation, he would. not for the popularity, but for the import of doing it

I don't disagree.

I don't think he's obliged to include trans characters. But I agree with you that Roy's antics with the belt don't prevent him from doing so, and I suspect he would probably want to do so. I also think he would write such a character well (in a way most trans people would appreciate).

hroþila

2018-10-09, 05:16 AM

The idea that its too late for a trans character to be introduced is incredibly shaky. Its really easy. The next time you need to introduce a new character. Make them trans. There, done. Nothing to it.
I agree it can be done, especially with a whole book still ahead. But it can also be done rather poorly, like in Mass Effect: Andromeda (from what I've read), so that it can come across as tokenism. On the other hand, even tokenism can help if representation overall is poor enough in other media, and if memory serves The Giant did say something to the effect that he'd sacrifice some of the quality of the writing (e.g. by having dialogue that is not exactly natural or whatever) in order to do good out of universe.

Still though, to reiterate, there's certainly enough story left to introduce a trans character and flesh them out enough that everything about them is well written, and it should certainly be possible to do the same with one-off characters if you write their scenes well enough.

Lacuna Caster

2018-10-09, 06:08 AM

Qarr said that very few wizards ever reach 10th level. I think we can take it as stated that OotS is not the kind of insanely high-magic setting where fifth-level spells are used by all or most random merchants.

Solt Lorkyurg, for instance, could be the equivalent of the travelling salesman who drives instead of flies because it's cheaper.
Oh, I'm pretty sure that teleportation magic would be fairly expensive in OOTSverse, but as far as I can tell that's based entirely on the rarity of the service and 10th-level wizards being able to charge whatever they want. The teleport spell itself (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm) doesn't cost the caster anything, and the only drawback is a very small chance of arriving off-target. Compared against the risk of storms, piracy, landslides, etc. that's well worth running.

But anyway, yes- as Kish has pointed out, this is probably not a setting where spells like polymorph are trivial to come by for the unwashed masses. You might get a different impression from Haley & Co. visiting random shops to pick out magic wands like they were 4th of July twizzlers, but Haley is halfway to being a fantasy billionaire. This is not the reality of life for most people.

KorvinStarmast

2018-10-09, 06:20 AM

Okey, let's clarify something here...

Back there in the beggining of D&D, regarding cursed items, the rule was not that you couldn't remove them, but that your character didn't want to stop using them.

The trick with a cursed sword, for example, was not that it was glued to the hands of your character, meaning he/she had to eat with the other hand and sleep holding the sword. The trick was that you character liked the sword and believed he/she was a better swordsman with it and that it was the best magic sword in the world and couldn't be convenienced in any way to stop using it. Unless someone cast "remove curse" on him/her. That was standard definition up until at least AD&D 2nd Edition, if my poor memory serves. AD&D 1e had the same thing, and I have a character right now with a Sword of Vengeance (5e). Cursed sword, and since I have disadvantage if I try to use another weapon, I never switch. (I agreed to RP this as best I could with the DM, so that the party will have to realize I have a "thing" with this sword. So far, nobody in the party has gotten a grip on the hints I've dropped, that I am cursed. Now and again I go after an monster that injured me (needs a Wisdom save of DC 15) when it is tactically questionable to do so. So far, the "fighter is being" too aggressive seems to be the story.

Regarding the Belt? In a "real" world it wouldn't work like "you can't take it off". It would work like "you like that belt and want to wear it in all occasions. Of course, you can remove it to take a shower, but you will run to put it back as soon as possible, because the curse makes you truly believe that being of the opposite sex suits you better".
Interesting take, and I like how the RP fits into that.

Now, the OOTS being a self-aware fantasy parody, the Giant played the trope straight. That arc would have had to be played very different if Roy had been acting like liking the belt and the gender change. Comedy often touches on things that people are not comfortable talking about. (See also the role of the fool/jester in some medieval courts ...)

Is it actually a point of discussion whether hormones can change the way people feel, think and act? Plenty of stand up comedians cover that in their jokes.

Am I alone in my opinion that there's no real imperative that the Giant (or anyone) include a trans character in their work at all? :smallconfused: No, you are not alone. He'll write what he thinks fits. It was interesting to see that quote about how the fan reaction made him think.

RainbowCloakBun

2018-10-09, 07:32 AM

The next time you need to introduce a new character. Make them trans.
You're glossing over the only real argument here against introducing a trans character, in response to said argument.

1. Say you make Alice. Alice once had chickenpox, but she's better now. It's not anything special, lots of people have had chickenpox.
2. Alice meets with the characters. Alice plays whatever part she plays as it pertains to the plot. Alice separates from the main characters.

While I'm sure that I could work in a way to offhandedly mention that Alice once had chicken pox, it is a difficult thing to bring up without it sounding contrived; you might bring up the order's Mummy Rot and she might say "Oh, that sounds far worse than the chickenpox I had when I was 7", but even that sounds contrived. Bringing up a proper framing context to allow Alice to state "I used to be a man" is difficult. The plot is moving forward, and will continue moving forward, and someone's state of being trans isn't something that relates to stopping Xykon, or persuading redcloak, or preventing the Snarl from demolishing everything. To introduce a trans character and properly take the time to establish the character as trans, the plot would have to slow down enough that the fact that someone used to be trans actually relates to the conversation that people are having in the panel. Seeing as we are building toward a massive climax and the final book is already going to be a phone book, I just don't see that as feasible.

That isn't at all to say that you can't introduce a trans character without it seeming forced, but the amount of effort it would take would slow down the speed of the plot, and if that's the only reason it was slowed, it would feel just as contrived. The Giant is a better author than that.

Am I alone in my opinion that there's no real imperative that the Giant (or anyone) include a trans character in their work at all?
Like the person above me, I'm with you. Discussing how people shouldn't be required to include a group in their work, though, tends to create a long, pointless argument, so I don't tend to bring it up except in passing.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-09, 07:38 AM

You're glossing over the only real argument here against introducing a trans character, in response to said argument.

1. Say you make Alice. Alice once had chickenpox, but she's better now. It's not anything special, lots of people have had chickenpox.
2. Alice meets with the characters. Alice plays whatever part she plays as it pertains to the plot. Alice separates from the main characters.

While I'm sure that I could work in a way to offhandedly mention that Alice once had chicken pox, it is a difficult thing to bring up without it sounding contrived; you might bring up the order's Mummy Rot and she might say "Oh, that sounds far worse than the chickenpox I had when I was 7", but even that sounds contrived. Bringing up a proper framing context to allow Alice to state "I used to be a man" is difficult. The plot is moving forward, and will continue moving forward, and someone's state of being trans isn't something that relates to stopping Xykon, or persuading redcloak, or preventing the Snarl from demolishing everything. To introduce a trans character and properly take the time to establish the character as trans, the plot would have to slow down enough that the fact that someone used to be trans actually relates to the conversation that people are having in the panel. Seeing as we are building toward a massive climax and the final book is already going to be a phone book, I just don't see that as feasible.

That isn't at all to say that you can't introduce a trans character without it seeming forced, but the amount of effort it would take would slow down the speed of the plot, and if that's the only reason it was slowed, it would feel just as contrived. The Giant is a better author than that.

with the focus on pronouns, it would be really easy to do a short play with them to make a point. It could even work with a pre existing character. There are a lot of ways to do it well, and focusing on why it’s not worth the effort kinda sucks

RainbowCloakBun

2018-10-09, 07:43 AM

with the focus on pronouns, it would be really easy to do a short play with them to make a point. It could even work with a pre existing character. There are a lot of ways to do it well, and focusing on why it’s not worth the effort kinda sucks
The point is that that short insertion of a character's state of being trans makes it feel contrived, as though the only reason that you are including it is to satiate people. That doesn't normalize the inclusion of trans characters, that exceptionalizes it, and makes it yet another instance where trans people are treated as separate from everyone else.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-09, 07:46 AM

The point is that that short insertion of a character's state of being trans makes it feel contrived, as though the only reason that you are including it is to satiate people. That doesn't normalize the inclusion of trans characters, that exceptionalizes it, and makes it yet another instance where trans people are treated as separate from everyone else.

Right? I don’t understand what your argument is. I agree it’s possible to do it badly, but why focus on that, it’s possible to do it well too. It can be included in ways similar to how sexuality has been mentioned, where it’s reall natural and feels like part of the world

RainbowCloakBun

2018-10-09, 07:50 AM

Right? I don’t understand what your argument is. I agree it’s possible to do it badly, but why focus on that, it’s possible to do it well too. It can be included in ways similar to how sexuality has been mentioned, where it’s reall natural and feels like part of the world

I already said what my argument is:

To introduce a trans character and properly take the time to establish the character as trans, the plot would have to slow down enough that the fact that someone used to be trans actually relates to the conversation that people are having in the panel. Seeing as we are building toward a massive climax and the final book is already going to be a phone book, I just don't see that as feasible.

That isn't at all to say that you can't introduce a trans character without it seeming forced, but the amount of effort it would take would slow down the speed of the plot, and if that's the only reason it was slowed, it would feel just as contrived. The Giant is a better author than that.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-09, 07:54 AM

Gotcha. I don’t agree. I think it’s doable, and doubly think its worth doing

hroþila

2018-10-09, 08:01 AM

It just occurred to me that this could actually be quite easy: just have a non-passing trans non-elf being referred to by their preferred pronouns.

Morty

2018-10-09, 09:11 AM

An opinion I've seen about the Belt of Gender Change, in the game rather than the comic, is that it turns sex change into both a juvenile prank and a punishment for players. As in "you didn't check the item, now you're a girl, hardy har". "Gotcha" cursed items are a bad idea to begin with, this adds a layer of unpleasantness on top of that. Not that its appearance in the comic was mature and sensitive.

Other than that, I agree that a transgender character could be added to the story, and I'm not sure why there's such resistance against the idea. The Giant said that he has no current plans because of the episode with the belt, not that he won't do it ever.

Larrx

2018-10-09, 11:18 AM

I agree with that. I think that if Rich wants to make a trans character as a representation of that group, he can go ahead, but given his desire not to have a repeat of the belt incident, he is unlikely to do so.

As others have mentioned, in the stick verse it may just be a complete non-issue as there exists several ways to magically solve the problem. Therefore Rich may not feel that there is even a storytelling need to bring it up.

He did included a new trans character after the belt! It was also gross (676, first panel, look at Roy's expression of disgust.

When trans characters are treated with disgust (see above), or viewed as unnatural (check when Durkon confronts Roy about his pleasure about reforging his sword), or are the butt of gendered jokes (Thanks Hayley!, belt/hotel incedent) there is . . . pain.

Not enough to make me stop reading. I still love the Giant, but he's right when he acknowledges that he's made some . . . errors.

I actually think he needs to address this. I don't need an apology from the Giant, we already have that, but I would honestly like the team to meet a trans char who is source of neither vomit nor ridicule, and that the protagonists reflect on that for . . . I don't know . . . a panel? Is that too much to ask?

ArkenBrony

2018-10-09, 11:21 AM

Peelee

2018-10-09, 11:24 AM

He did included a new trans character after the belt! It was also gross (676, first panel, look at Roy's expression of disgust.

That character wasn't trans, to the best of our knowledge; she was a reptile who got breast implants. Body modification =/= trans.

Adghar

2018-10-09, 11:25 AM

He did included a new trans character after the belt! It was also gross (676, first panel, look at Roy's expression of disgust.

I'm a bit surprised that you read it that way. My reading of it was that since reptiles generally don't have boobs, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptile) that that lizard was trying to be transspecies, which would be a rather wildly different beast than transgender. The butt of the joke seems to be that trying to appease human sexuality by mashing together elements of human and lizard is ridiculous, not that a human person presenting as a human person of a different gender is ridiculous.

I suppose the imagery and language may have carried unintended, but very real and hurtful, overtones within the context of what trans people are forced to endure. That's probably why Rich really doesn't want to try addressing the issue deliberately, because even when he most likely isn't trying to address the issue, he ends up inflicting pain, anyways!

hamishspence

2018-10-09, 11:27 AM

The joke was abiut dpecies difference

"Just trying to stay current"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0676.html

was, I thought, was a nod to 4e female dragonborn - at the time, there were many comments on how they looked "too human".

zimmerwald1915

2018-10-09, 11:28 AM

Is that too much to ask?
From a comic that's been a source of so much pain already, written by a cis man who can't hope to comprehend the issue and knows and has stated as much? Yeah, probably.

Things don't improve.

Peelee

2018-10-09, 11:30 AM

Things don't improve.

He says without fear of censorship.

zimmerwald1915

2018-10-09, 11:32 AM

He says without fear of censorship.
Now that is simply not true.

Larrx

2018-10-09, 11:48 AM

That wasn’t a trans character. That was explicitly a female lizard folk with breast implants. The joke was abiut dpecies difference

It was a trans prostitute joke filtered through the lens of a fantasy RPG, this can't t really be point of contention, right?I

We've all watched police procedurals. Just as the 'goblins being usually evil, so we can kill them' bit is a not subtle at all allegory for rasism, the lizard who offers "the best of both worlds " is a suuuuper clear stand in for a trans person who has to do this sort of work because no one will hire them because trans people are gross and everyone agrees that this is an acceptable status quo.

It's honestly silly to imagine that the Giant did that by accident. He's repeating a pervasive trope.

He has some familiarity with tropes. He might even have genre savvy.

He might have framed it differently, but it was a trans-phobic bit.

I still love him though! His writing brings me lots of joy!

It would be easier to archive dive if I didn't have to read certain parts. So that sucks. But it really could be fixed really quick by one positive trans person and a pause for the main cast to consider. It could even be funny and advance the plot at the same time!

I agree with the OP it's very possible.

Edit: typo

Kish

2018-10-09, 11:56 AM

It was a trans prostitute joke filtered through the lens of a fantasy RPG, this can't t really be point of contention, right?I
Yes, it absolutely can. Or rather, I would, prior to today's posts, have said it couldn't because no one could possibly think any of the sex workers there are trans, literally or in metaphor.

That's a cis-female lizardfolk. Lizard people are not an analogy for trans people. Scales are not an analogy for penises. The joke is about dragonborn and anthropomorphic female creatures having human-like breasts even if creatures of that non-anthropomorphized kind wouldn't have mammaries at all.

Emanick

2018-10-09, 12:06 PM

It was a trans prostitute joke filtered through the lens of a fantasy RPG, this can't t really be point of contention, right?I

We've all watched police procedurals. Just as the 'goblins being usually evil, so we can kill them' bit is a not subtle at all allegory for rasism, the lizard who offers "the best of both worlds " is a suuuuper clear stand in for a trans person who has to do this sort of work because no one will hire them because trans people are gross and everyone agrees that this is an acceptable stake quo.

It's honestly silly to imagine that the Giant did that by accident. He's repeating a pervasive trope.

He has some familiarity with tropes. He might even have genre savvy.

He might have framed it differently, but it was a trans-phobic bit.

I still love him though! His writing brings me lots of joy!

It would be easier to archive dive if I didn't have to read certain parts. So that sucks. But it really could be fixed really quick by one positive trans person and a pause for the main cast to consider. It could even be funny and advance the plot at the same time!

I agree with the OP it's very possible.

Edit: typo

It's not remotely true that The Giant obviously did this as a trope that represents trans people in any way. Maybe it appeared that way to you, but even after you specifically explained how you see this as transphobic, I still don't see that as the natural interpretation. It's just a joke about lizardfolk prostitutes trying to appeal to humans by getting human-like surgery. It's meant to be an absurdist joke, not a real-world parallel. I never found it funny, but that's because I've worked at a shelter for survivors of sex trafficking and I basically never find prostitution jokes funny.

It's totally fine to be offended by it. It's not fine to assume that The Giant did it on purpose, because a) that's very out-of-character for him and b) I strongly suspect that to most cisgender people, that analogy seems really strained. Most people are not going to make the same associations that you do.

Edit: As an aside, you should also stop viewing Roy's pleasure at having his sword reforged as an intended analogy for trans people being unnatural. It's meant to be a joke about Roy viewing his sword as an extension of his manhood, with the sword as a phallic object. It's got absolutely nothing to do with trans people, and shouldn't be viewed in that light.

Takver

2018-10-09, 12:07 PM

woweedd

2018-10-09, 12:11 PM

From a comic that's been a source of so much pain already, written by a cis man who can't hope to comprehend the issue and knows and has stated as much? Yeah, probably.

Things don't improve.
Look, Zimmer, I know you believe people can't change, and that our personalities are, I guess, embedded on our brains at birth, but none of that changes the fact that improvement is possible, both in people and in the world.

Larrx

2018-10-09, 12:14 PM

Yes, it absolutely can. Or rather, I would, prior to today's posts, have said it couldn't because no one could possibly think any of the sex workers there are trans, literally or in metaphor.

That's a cis-female lizardfolk. Lizard people are not an analogy for trans people. Scales are not an analogy for penises. The joke is about dragonborn and anthropomorphic female creatures having human-like breasts even if creatures of that non-anthropomorphized kind wouldn't have mammaries at all.

It's a sex worker that has boobs that 'shouldn't have boobs', and that's gross.

I am aware of the dragonborn art kerfluffle, and I know Rich jokes about stuff like that, but that's not how I read it at all.

Maybe you're right? I don't think so, but I am curious how other Playgrounders read the scene.

zimmerwald1915

2018-10-09, 12:16 PM

Grey_Wolf_c

2018-10-09, 12:16 PM

the lizard who offers "the best of both worlds " is a suuuuper clear stand in for a trans person who has to do this sort of work because no one will hire them because trans people are gross and everyone agrees that this is an acceptable stake quo.

No, it is not. It is a joke about dragonborn having breasts in 4th ed (at the time, the "current" edition) - thus the "staying current" comment.

Grey Wolf

Larrx

2018-10-09, 12:23 PM

You're kind of getting piled on here, so I just want to pop in and say I agree with you. I hadn't really thought about it before, but the "best of both worlds" and Roy's reaction are beat for beat exactly the same as a trans prostitute joke. I don't think he necessarily meant to do it (because it is also a joke about "sexy reptiles" with mammaries) but it definitely relies on well-known tropes about trans women sex workers and trans femininity in general as artificial/unnatural.

Thanks! I'm not alone!

I'm also not trying to make troub!e guys, I swear. It's just . . . you know . . . a thing that happenend. It doesn't make me want to look for a pitchfork, I'm honestly surprised that other people don't see, it is all.

Linneris

2018-10-09, 12:25 PM

It was a trans prostitute joke filtered through the lens of a fantasy RPG, this can't t really be point of contention, right?I

I didn't read it this way at all. In fact, it didn't occur to me that it had any real-life context and wasn't just a comedic commentary on fantasy reptilian humanoids and excessive humanization thereof.

That people find negative trans-related connotations in things that probably weren't intended that way (I don't think Rich, especially BRitF-era Rich, is the kind of person who would be specifically aiming for that interpretation) is another reason why I think it might be best for Rich to just avoid the subject. Not every work of fiction has to tick every demographic box just for the sake of it.

I agree it can be done, especially with a whole book still ahead. But it can also be done rather poorly, like in Mass Effect: Andromeda (from what I've read), so that it can come across as tokenism.

The way Andromeda handled it seemed a little forced and did smell of tokenism to me, but honestly, the controversy around it was blown way out of proportion.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-09, 12:35 PM

I didn't read it this way at all. In fact, it didn't occur to me that it had any real-life context and wasn't just a comedic commentary on fantasy reptilian humanoids and excessive humanization thereof.

That people find negative trans-related connotations in things that probably weren't intended that way (I don't think Rich, especially BRitF-era Rich, is the kind of person who would be specifically aiming for that interpretation) is another reason why I think it might be best for Rich to just avoid the subject. Not every work of fiction has to tick every demographic box just for the sake of it..

and here's the problem i keep seeing. that the fear of a mistake justifies a lack of representation. no not every piece does have to, but why is it encouraged tht they don't? and it's not just for the sake of it, I'm not asking there to be a token trans character in the story, it's for important reasons! I want this story that I love so very much, that has hundreds of characters of mixed background, might have a characater that is trans. if people try, and fail, that's lessons for the future. and if people try, and succeed (which i fervently believe that rich could) than it's nothing but plusses

Emanick

2018-10-09, 12:35 PM

RatElemental

2018-10-09, 12:48 PM

hamishspence

2018-10-09, 12:51 PM

There's also precedent for Rich making a reference that tons of people interpreted in a way that was unintended. Most people thought Malack's speech about the "special chamber" he wanted to establish for mass executions was a deliberate parallel to the Holocaust, but Rich said that parallel never occurred to him, and that he had been thinking of factory farming (or modern mass animal slaughter in general, anyway; I don't recall the precise term he used).

The quote in question:

When I made the reference, I was more considering post-apocalyptic science fiction like Soylent Green—people killed in mass numbers to serve as food (which would literally be the case here, since Malack feeds on humans). If I was referencing any aspect of real life at all, it was factory farming, where humans have special chambers built to slaughter millions of cows and pigs each year all in the name of efficiency. I'm a vegetarian.

I will not pretend that it never occurred to me that anyone could take it any other way, but it was not my intent. Ultimately, I felt that the differences between the reference and the historical event were enough that it would not be necessarily seen that way—the inclusion of a religious/sacrificial angle and the fact that Malack literally will eat the people killed seemed, at the time, to push it well into the realm of a fantasy event.

Larrx

2018-10-09, 12:55 PM

I didn't read it this way at all. In fact, it didn't occur to me that it had any real-life context and wasn't just a comedic commentary on fantasy reptilian humanoids and excessive humanization thereof.

Everything Rich does has real life context, according to his own writing (which I can't link on my phone, help) that's the entire point of well written fiction.

That people find negative trans-related connotations in things that probably weren't intended that way (I don't think Rich, especially BRitF-era Rich, is the kind of person who would be specifically aiming for that interpretation) is another reason why I think it might be best for Rich to just avoid the subject. Not every work of fiction has to tick every demographic box just for the sake of it.

I don't think he got out of bed one morning and thought to himself, "How can I cheese off the trans community today." I think it was at worst a lazy joke. When I mention his intention, I'm only trying to highlight the fact that most of his art is intentional, meant to make the readers think or question, and demand serious reflexion. Not every funny punch line, no (which was not this by the way), but the work as a whole.

And I care little for checking boxes. I don't need trans characters in everything I encounter. I just think that there have been some missteps in OOTS, and it wouldn't be too hard to correct them.

Liquor Box

2018-10-09, 01:00 PM

hamishspence

2018-10-09, 01:06 PM

Everything Rich does has real life context, according to his own writing (which I can't link on my phone, help) that's the entire point of well written fiction.

You mean these?

The story is a tool for getting my ideas across, nothing more. Some of those ideas are thoughts on D&D and how it should be played, some are thoughts about right and wrong, and some are thoughts about the world around us and how we should treat other people.

no fiction is meaningful if its lessons cannot be applied to the world that we, real actual humans, live in. If you are going to dismiss any themes or subtext present in any fantasy story as simply not applying to our world because that world has dragons and ours doesn't, then you have largely missed the point of literature as a whole, and are likely rather poorer for it. Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.

I don't think they were intended to mean "Everything in the strip has a strong Real World Message." Sometimes a joke is just a joke.

I just think that there have been some missteps in OOTS, and it wouldn't be too hard to correct them.

IMO The Giant has already been putting quite a bit of effort into "correcting his missteps".

Peelee

2018-10-09, 01:21 PM

Now that is simply not true.

Ya know, you're right. I shouldn't have been so flippant, and I apologize. But such fears are lesser, for a good amount of people, than they were in the past. I'm a believer in the arc of the moral universe.

Larrx

2018-10-09, 01:23 PM

I didn't read as in any way referencing trans people. But I often don't see subtle allegory that other people see, and Im also probably much less aware of the trope, so my interpretation may not be accurate.

' Creepy crossdresser' on tvtropes isn't exactly it, but it gets pretty close. You saw it a lot more often on old procedurals like NYPD Blue, but it is still sadly quite common.

I think all I really want at this point is for people to realize, "Oh, I still think she's wrong, but I get where she's coming from. I get it. She's not crazy. She grew up with this all the time, and then had to see it exactly again in one of her favorite webcomics? Dude, that sucks."

The Extinguisher

2018-10-09, 01:28 PM

its pretty disappointing (but not surprising) to see a bunch of people dogpilling on trans people in this thread.

like we dont need you to repeatedly list all the reasons why there shouldnt be a trans character in the comic. no trans characters is the default of basically all media, no one needs to defend it.

also, Larrx, i agree that joke is super brutal. Unintended transphobia is still transphobia, and still hurts. Just because the character wasnt literally trans doesnt mean its not a hurtful joke that is based in ideology that causes trans people harm

Larrx

2018-10-09, 01:34 PM

You mean these?

I don't think they were intended to mean "Everything in the strip has a strong Real World Message." Sometimes a joke is just a joke.

IMO The Giant has already been putting quite a bit of effort into "correcting his missteps".

Those were the ones, thank you very much. Even if you think they don't support my point, that was still very kind.

I agree that he's been putting in quite a bit of effort!

It is weird that you laud that, while implying that it's a valid excuse to not put in effort in the future. He's done some great things, but he's far from finished as a writer. He's already expressed interest in writing trans characters in a future work. He's onboard. The question is 'is it too late for OOTS.'. I don't believe it is.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-09, 01:34 PM

yeah, that's a valid interpretation, and you're valid for being upset by it. I didn't mean to dogpile on you when I posted, nobody else had. sorry.

hamishspence

2018-10-09, 01:37 PM

He's done some great things, but he's far from finished as a writer. He's already expressed interest in writing trans characters in a future work. He's onboard. The question is 'is it too late for OOTS.'. I don't believe it is.

I agree that keeping up the effort is ideal.

Larrx

2018-10-09, 01:40 PM

Goblin_Priest

2018-10-09, 01:42 PM

I have to say, I never made the connection between the lizardfolk and trans people either. I can see where you're coming from, at least, but I really don't think Rich meant it that way or that it should be read that way.

Yea, same.

Many video games tend to "mammilify" what would otherwise be reptilian species. Because "sexy sells", I guess? Always seemed off to me... let the reptiles be reptiles.

The Extinguisher

2018-10-09, 01:46 PM

./biggesthug

Thanks Ex. I can call you Ex, right? We're buddies, right? Yeah we are.

Exti is the more common abbreviation but yeah thats absolutely cool :3 im always happy to have more buddies

Larrx

2018-10-09, 01:47 PM

yeah, that's a valid interpretation, and you're valid for being upset by it. I didn't mean to dogpile on you when I posted, nobody else had. sorry.

Wierdly, the dogpiling hasn't been anywhere near as bad as I'm used to. This is a pretty decent place for discussion. So no apology needed, but I accept it anyway.

And thankyou.

hamishspence

2018-10-09, 02:06 PM

Peelee

2018-10-09, 02:11 PM

It might be because of the Andi period - with people taking offence to Andi's portrayal and calling it "engineer-bashing" - that I was a little doubtful that the offended reaction was justified.
I loved the Andi arc, but I don't at all miss the forums during the Andi arc.

However, I must admit that I'm not especially good at judging when being offended is called for, and when it isn't.
Same. I usually try to stay out of it. I need to be better at staying out of it.

Larrx

2018-10-09, 02:22 PM

Yea, same.

Many video games tend to "mammilify" what would otherwise be reptilian species. Because "sexy sells", I guess? Always seemed off to me... let the reptiles be reptiles.

And I know that. I've read 'Go Make Me a Sandwich' cover to cover, I get how females are objectified to a silly extant in the tt(and computer)RPG world. The Giant has made that exact joke many times. Every time Hayley shops for new gear it comes up. Other times too. Those jokes follow a similar format though. The clothing is very impractical, it inexplicably is effective regardless, and while the men are clearly ridiculed for enjoying it they enjoy it nonetheless.

It a fun joke. The mammalian-sexy non-mammalians is the same joke.

The joke I referenced is not that. It's a different joke.

Teasing women for conforming to sexist norms, and poking fun at men for enjoying it is different, fundamentaly, than male disgust of a "fake" women.

Artists don't sexify reptiles to evoke repulsion.

The second joke is a different thing.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-09, 02:33 PM

Artists don't sexify reptiles to evoke repulsion.

The second joke is a different thing.

that's a really good point. huh...

hamishspence

2018-10-09, 02:36 PM

Artists don't sexify reptiles to evoke repulsion.

It could just as easily be a reference to "furries".

Worldsong

2018-10-09, 02:38 PM

It could just as easily be a reference to "furries".

Is it my turn to get offended then?

hamishspence

2018-10-09, 02:40 PM

The point being that we don't know what The Giant intended - we can only guess.

Worldsong

2018-10-09, 02:41 PM

The point being that we don't know what The Giant intended - we can only guess.

I know, my previous comment was meant to sound witty.

ArkenBrony

2018-10-09, 02:49 PM

I don’t think the point is about what the intention is, the point is that it very easily can be read in a specific way that is offensive. However, the point of this thread is not to argue over that, it’s to say that it’s totally cool if he were to include trans characters into the story

hamishspence

2018-10-09, 02:51 PM

Agreed. The "introduced as casually as possible" approach, done with Bandana, might be a good precedent.

Larrx

2018-10-09, 04:17 PM

Agreed. The "introduced as casually as possible" approach, done with Bandana, might be a good precedent.

I think so too.

The Giant

2018-10-09, 05:58 PM

He did included a new trans character after the belt! It was also gross (676, first panel, look at Roy's expression of disgust.

When trans characters are treated with disgust (see above), or viewed as unnatural (check when Durkon confronts Roy about his pleasure about reforging his sword), or are the butt of gendered jokes (Thanks Hayley!, belt/hotel incedent) there is . . . pain.

Not enough to make me stop reading. I still love the Giant, but he's right when he acknowledges that he's made some . . . errors.

I actually think he needs to address this. I don't need an apology from the Giant, we already have that, but I would honestly like the team to meet a trans char who is source of neither vomit nor ridicule, and that the protagonists reflect on that for . . . I don't know . . . a panel? Is that too much to ask?

The joke in that panel is that the 4th Edition of D&D had recently introduced a draconic race called Dragonborn, and the art for that race had female with prominent breasts. The lizardfolk in my world, however, do not have breasts. I wanted to make a joke about how stupid it was to have the art that way without changing the actual portrayal of reptilian races in my world, so I came up with the idea of a female lizardfolk who was trying to use plastic surgery to "keep up" with the latest trends. It is not a trans gender individual at all (because it is a cis-female), and it never occurred to me that anyone would see it that way. I do not spend much time thinking about or being exposed to things like the plight of transgender sex workers, so I just didn't see any other parallel to anything in the real world. It was a dumb joke about D&D, and if there was any larger point, it was about the trend of (mostly male) artists needlessly injecting stereotypical sexual characteristics into things that wouldn't logically have them.

However, all of that explanation doesn't really matter, because some of you read it differently and were upset by it. It's my job to know how my jokes are going to land, and if I can't predict (within reason) how people are going to take something, then I shouldn't be joking about it in the first place. It's my responsibility to make sure my comic isn't hurting anyone. I apologize without reservation for any pain I may have caused anyone, even after all this time, for a joke that was not intended in that way at all.

But this thread has also proven beyond any doubt I might have had that I simply do not have the sensitivity required to write about (or even loosely adjacent to) these topics. That sometimes I can't see parallels with real world issues until someone smacks me in the face with them, nine years later. That the people here claiming that surely I am a good enough author to be capable of writing trans characters with proper deference are, in fact, highly deluded about my general skill level.

I suppose the imagery and language may have carried unintended, but very real and hurtful, overtones within the context of what trans people are forced to endure. That's probably why Rich really doesn't want to try addressing the issue deliberately, because even when he most likely isn't trying to address the issue, he ends up inflicting pain, anyways!

This, exactly. If I don't know what I'm doing, and what I'm doing causes pain over and over, I need to not do it anymore. So I'm going to keep with my previous stance on this issue: I would rather people be mad at me for not including representation of a group than hurt because I did.

Zenzis

2018-10-09, 06:23 PM

I know I am just one person but I just want to say the giant's response blew me away. I can't think of another time I have read someone talking about how their artistic work might accidentally cause pain and how they respond to it in such a positive, constructive, great way. Just understand that you can't understand and adequately deal with all issues. I can't figure out what to say and am being confusing because that really was just great and I want to say it was great. I am personally close to gender issues and I read A LOT of things from all sides of it and somehow this is the most nontoxic thing ever. Maybe that's why I can't find the right word. This isn't nontoxic it is whatever the opposite of toxic is not just a negation of it. I am going to go buy a PDF of No Cure For Paladin Blues right now because I want to support anyone who would write this. Thanks for making my day.

EDIT: The only thing untrue about this is I meant Good Deeds Gone Unpunished but was too actively blown away to think.

Peelee

2018-10-09, 06:46 PM

This isn't nontoxic it is whatever the opposite of toxic is not just a negation of it.

"Healthy?"

Tarthalion

2018-10-09, 11:58 PM

This isn't nontoxic it is whatever the opposite of toxic is not just a negation of it.

Wholesome?

Worldsong

2018-10-10, 12:42 AM

This isn't nontoxic it is whatever the opposite of toxic is not just a negation of it.

'Positive?'

Mightymosy

2018-10-10, 01:13 AM

Like hrothila pointed out, it's more an issue with cultural baggage. Large swathes of the US population (though perhaps only a small subset of those swathes would ever stumble upon GITP or OOTS) go to workplaces where female work and opinions are dismissed, interrupted, stolen without credit, etc. with the reason attributed to hormones (and other such misogynistic stereotypes). Said female workers would probably find it in bad form to make light of their situation the way Roy's was presented, even if it is totally fair for Roy to experience radical changes due to being unfamiliar with having estrogen pumped through his body.

Exactly how large said swathes are is up for debate, and most likely nobody will convince anyone otherwise via the internet. There are those who believe said swathes are nearly nonexistent, and there are those who believe such work environments are nearly omnipresent. Perhaps published findings in journals of sociology would sway people's opinions one way or the other, but everyone knows sociology isn't a real science anyways.

Ok. If that's how you people read these comics, then US is in more of a deep end than I thought....

Girls and women DO get bad moods from their hormones, which is something we in Europe have no trouble acklowledging. It is part of their nature. Also, men do. Again, part of nature. And it might be especially disturbing if a person - like Roy - suddenly recieved a whole lot of hormones from the wrong sex all of a sudden.
These comics were perfectly fine in my opinion, and quite honestly, if what you say is the "default" way to read these comics, this means to me that US society is REALLY weird and I am glad to be European. Geeze!!

woweedd

2018-10-10, 02:58 AM

Ok. If that's how you people read these comics, then US is in more of a deep end than I thought....

Girls and women DO get bad moods from their hormones, which is something we in Europe have no trouble acklowledging. It is part of their nature. Also, men do. Again, part of nature. And it might be especially disturbing if a person - like Roy - suddenly recieved a whole lot of hormones from the wrong sex all of a sudden.
These comics were perfectly fine in my opinion, and quite honestly, if what you say is the "default" way to read these comics, this means to me that US society is REALLY weird and I am glad to be European. Geeze!!
No, he's talking about the issue of "hormones" being used to dismiss women as irrational, in a way which typically doesn't happen with men. See also: PMS and Periods, which is especially galling when one considers that, during those time periods, a women's increased aggression is caused by increased testrone...Which is a hormone guys have more of than women at all times. So, if women are irrational when on their periods...You can follow me here

Hardcore

2018-10-10, 04:05 AM

woweedd

2018-10-10, 04:11 AM

Fyraltari

2018-10-10, 06:01 AM

this means to me that US society is REALLY weird

How are you just now figuring that out? :smalltongue:

Also, what woweedd said.

KorvinStarmast

2018-10-10, 07:27 AM

That's a cis-female lizardfolk. Lizard people are not an analogy for trans people. Scales are not an analogy for penises. The joke is about dragonborn and anthropomorphic female creatures having human-like breasts even if creatures of that non-anthropomorphized kind wouldn't have mammaries at all. That you had to make this post (or felt moved to) illustrates that we are dealing with some posters who are being willfully obtuse. That kind of behavior isn't something that reasoned discussion will change.

I wanted to make a joke about how stupid it was to have the art that way without changing the actual portrayal of reptilian races in my world, so I came up with the idea of a female lizardfolk who was trying to use plastic surgery to "keep up" with the latest trends. That is how the joke landed to the vast majority of your audience. The willfully obtuse you cannot blame yourself for.
It was a dumb joke about D&D, and if there was any larger point, it was about the trend of (mostly male) artists needlessly injecting stereotypical sexual characteristics into things that wouldn't logically have them. that landed as well. I disagree that it was a dumb joke. You break the fourth wall a lot, often getting a grin or a chuckle out of your audience.

if I can't predict (within reason) how people are going to take something, then I shouldn't be joking about it in the first place. It's my responsibility to make sure my comic isn't hurting anyone. You write comedy, among other things. George Carlin (and many others who practice that art form) would probably advise you that you can't make jokes without someone getting their back up now and again. (OK, George won't tell you that, as he'd dead).

You will drive yourself mad if you take a zero defects approach, even though I appreciate your noble sentiments.

I simply do not have the sensitivity required to write about (or even loosely adjacent to) these topics. A man's got to know his limitations; play to your strengths.

Censorship was mentioned earlier, and this, btw, is the variant called self - censorship. I'd call it a man knowing his limitations. Would be nice if more people were self aware to that degree.

Aveline

2018-10-10, 07:46 AM

It is utterly ironic that the strong desire to get recognition for trans, and other sexual /gender minorities, in the comic has now lead to a zero chance of that happening.
This self-inflicted wound was inevitable I guess.

Censorship was mentioned earlier, and this, btw, is the variant called self - censorship.

Really?

What I find ironic is how it seems to be mostly cis people expressing a "strong desire" for the comic to recognize trans people, with mostly trans people saying "no, really, that's fine..."

That you had to make this post (or felt moved to) illustrates that we are dealing with some posters who are being willfully obtuse. That kind of behavior isn't something that reasoned discussion will change.

Just because you were not aware of a phrase's secondary baggage, and apparently cannot be shown that baggage, does not mean the phrase doesn't have secondary baggage. The lizardfolk herself isn't what brings the joke towards transphobic territory, it's the words, "Best of both worlds" that do it. Those words typed in that order have that baggage already attached for many people, such as Larrx, who has explained her own personal experience, and myself for that matter.

Goblin_Priest

2018-10-10, 07:54 AM

But this thread has also proven beyond any doubt I might have had that I simply do not have the sensitivity required to write about (or even loosely adjacent to) these topics. That sometimes I can't see parallels with real world issues until someone smacks me in the face with them, nine years later. That the people here claiming that surely I am a good enough author to be capable of writing trans characters with proper deference are, in fact, highly deluded about my general skill level.

Nobody has the "sensitivity" to talk about sensitive subjects without offending anyone.

Because no issue reaches 100% consensus on the world-wide population. Even the most "universal" taboos, like cannibalism, incest, or baby killing... you'll find plenty of historical accounts for, and they aren't gone either.

Even among the prominent figures of "feminism" or "gender studies" or whatever you want to call it, there is much dispute. Far left groups are rather renown for sectarianism, after all, prone to fratricide over petty divergences.

And it goes in all sorts of crazy extremes. Some groups will defend a man identifying as a woman as being a true woman, even without any surgery or hormone treatments. Other groups will accuse him/her of nothing less than being an oppressive tool of the patriarchy, even if s/he underwent full hormonal and surgical changes.

There's just no way to please *everyone*.

And that's all assuming people actually read what is said or depicted in the way it really was. Which is not always the case... it's well-known that the human mind tends to distort what it sees, typically heavily tinted by what it assumed it would see. People can easily be triggered by weird personal contorted logic that nobody else could ever guess.

zimmerwald1915

2018-10-10, 08:24 AM

And it goes in all sorts of crazy extremes. Some groups will defend a man identifying as a woman as being a true woman, even without any surgery or hormone treatments. Other groups will accuse him/her of nothing less than being an oppressive tool of the patriarchy, even if s/he underwent full hormonal and surgical changes.
And both would be right, because these are not actually opposing viewpoints. Of course people's subjective self-defeating should be given deference, because the only alternative is subjecting people to an external framework. But self-identification doesn't actually get you out of the external framework, because the framework is totalizing and embraces everything that exists.

Personally, I'm just waiting for the runaway greenhouse effect to resolve everything once and for all.

Larrx

2018-10-10, 08:56 AM

Riftwolf

2018-10-10, 08:57 AM

hamishspence

2018-10-10, 09:00 AM

I'm not sure if this is a topic I should post on a different subforum, but are there examples of good trans representation in fantasy people could recommend? The only ones I know of are 'Wicked and the Divine' and 'Alesha, who Smiles at Death' from m:tg (which I thought was a lot more tastefully handled than it could've been).

Alex in Rick Riordan's Magnus Chase series maybe? (books 2 and 3: Hammer of Thor and Ship of the Dead).

hroþila

2018-10-10, 09:13 AM

The way Andromeda handled it seemed a little forced and did smell of tokenism to me, but honestly, the controversy around it was blown way out of proportion.
Yeah, I can't say much because I haven't played it myself, but my impression from what I've read is that it received all sorts of unfair criticism, most of it from people with an axe to grind and a very particular political agenda, and that at the end of the day it was a pretty decent ME game despite its problems. The bits of criticism towards its treatment of its trans character that I saw didn't come from those bro gamer circles I mentioned, but it wouldn't surprise me if they got on board with it too because that'd be consistent with their concern trolling MO.

No, he's talking about the issue of "hormones" being used to dismiss women as irrational, in a way which typically doesn't happen with men. See also: PMS and Periods, which is especially galling when one considers that, during those time periods, a women's increased aggression is caused by increased testrone...Which is a hormone guys have more of than women at all times. So, if women are irrational when on their periods...You can follow me here
100% this.

Larrx

2018-10-10, 09:21 AM

I'd like to say thanks to the Giant for his succinct and well-received post. I know he doesn't come to the forums much anymore, but I'm glad he did before it started getting ugly again.
I'm not sure if this is a topic I should post on a different subforum, but are there examples of good trans representation in fantasy people could recommend? The only ones I know of are 'Wicked and the Divine' and 'Alesha, who Smiles at Death' from m:tg (which I thought was a lot more tastefully handled than it could've been).

If you count magical girls as fantasy, then Sleepless Domain by cubewatemelon has a young trans girl that, if I know anything about narrative structure, will be main cast, but we haven't seen much of her yet. It's only 300 some odd pages in, and if you can burn through the archive in an hour or two it's still a baby comic to me, but I'm probably spoiled.

Sister Claire, by Ashmino and co., is fantasy and has . . . just a bunch of gendergueer folks. There's some post-apoc-similar-to-our-world stuff, so there's some fans and light bulbs around, but it's minor. Also there is weeeks of content between the main comic, missing moments (backstory shortstories), and live writes(stuff that may become canon, AU stuff, sexy stuff). Bring tissues.

Goodbye to Halos, I forget the authors name (sorry author), has a trans women lead, but is just getting started.

Those are all webcomics, not sure which form of media you were looking for.

Adghar

2018-10-10, 09:25 AM

Nobody has the "sensitivity" to talk about sensitive subjects without offending anyone.

Sure. But that doesn't stop creators from trying to do better by a greater number of people, reducing the overall offense level.

There's just no way to please *everyone*.

Creators often do like to try, though! And in the process of striving towards that goal, sometimes improvement happens. I think I already mentioned the analogy, so excuse me if I sound like a broken record, but even though world peace is probably unattainable in our lifetime, I still admire those who work towards it and do believe their efforts do have some degree of impact on the world being better, if only just by a smidgen.

Aveline

2018-10-10, 09:29 AM

The Giant

2018-10-10, 09:32 AM

You will drive yourself mad if you take a zero defects approach, even though I appreciate your noble sentiments.

Everytime this comes up, someone always rushes to deploy the slippery slope: that caring about this one thing might lead to caring about everything, and then where would we be?

It's a fallacy for a reason. In the fifteen years I've been drawing OOTS, transgender-ism is the sole topic that has seen multiple people telling me my work caused them personal pain on separate occasions over separate jokes. There is plenty of empirical evidence that I have a particular blind spot on this topic, and that said blind spot is particularly harmful.

Literally no one has ever told me that my handling of Bandana's sexuality or Vaarsuvius' gender or Roy's race or Haley's penchant for unfortunate language or any of a hundred things swirling around Miko has hurt them on a personal level. They'll complain about it, they'll stomp their feet and write huge multi-quote debate threads, they'll tell me in their best concern troll voice that they're worried that other people might be upset, but they won't tell me they, themselves, were injured. There's a qualitative difference when it comes to how people respond to this one issue, and thus I am choosing to treat it uniquely. Until I see evidence that another topic has the same effect, there is no reason to think that this course of action will be extended to additional subject matter.

What some people are basically arguing is that I should be willing to roll the dice on a given topic and risk hurting people to tell a joke. What I am saying is, I already have done so and they came up snake eyes three times in a row. I'm not rolling these particular dice anymore. I'll continue to roll other dice until I have evidence that they, too, are dice with which no one wins.

There's just no way to please *everyone*.

I know that. And right now, I'm choosing to not please the people who say I shouldn't worry about this stuff.

Gwynfrid

2018-10-10, 09:57 AM

It's a sex worker that has boobs that 'shouldn't have boobs', and that's gross.

I am aware of the dragonborn art kerfluffle, and I know Rich jokes about stuff like that, but that's not how I read it at all.

Maybe you're right? I don't think so, but I am curious how other Playgrounders read the scene.

This would never have occurred to me if I hadn't read this particular thread. But then, I probably lack the life experience and cultural background to be sensitive to this range of topics. In a very similar way, it never occurred to me that anyone would find the infamous belt of sex change arc offensive, until I read about it on the forum.

So. One always has things to learn. Thanks for giving me this opportunity to do so. Also, thanks to Rich for this thoughtful and honest reaction. That's the best outcome one could hope for this thread, which otherwise would be nothing but sad.

5a Violista

2018-10-10, 12:45 PM

Just because you were not aware of a phrase's secondary baggage, and apparently cannot be shown that baggage, does not mean the phrase doesn't have secondary baggage. The lizardfolk herself isn't what brings the joke towards transphobic territory, it's the words, "Best of both worlds" that do it. Those words typed in that order have that baggage already attached for many people, such as Larrx, who has explained her own personal experience, and myself for that matter.

So could there have been a way to word that joke that would have made it harmless?

If we removed the lizardfolk's "Best of both worlds" comment and replaced it with something explicitly referencing dragonborn (rather than implicitly), it sounds like it could have been better.

...I'm having a tough time coming up with a good way to reword that sentence and still keep it both a reference to "artists like giving breasts to species that logically shouldn't have them" and keeping it succinct, while also not having potentially-harmful vibes.

How about "I heard humans like sexy lizards." <No, feels too much like "explaining the joke" and making the joke fall flat
"The artist decided he wants to give lizards breasts now" <This 4th wall break sounds stilted and out-of-place
"If you've ever wanted to be with a dragonborn, I'm the next best thing" <To somebody who doesn't know D&D 4th ed, this joke makes no sense and also has an out-of-place 4th wall break
"I saw in the new Monster's Manual (or whatever book it is) that new and popular lizardfolk should look like this." <a bit verbose and slightly unfunny
"If you want something fresh and current..." <and we're back to 'too implicit'

Aveline

2018-10-10, 12:58 PM

So could there have been a way to word that joke that would have made it harmless?
Maybe. But probably not.

Edit: As was discussed earlier, the words themselves are the icing that proves the cake. The whole "inappropriate combination of sexual features" concept is the root of the joke, which is itself mildly insensitive. Wording it differently is just sidestepping.

Edit 2: That being said, I had no personal hard feeling towards the Giant in the first place over this particular joke, but I do understand why others felt it more personally, and it sucks when people say you just shouldn't feel hurt over something like that, so I very much appreciate Rich's stance going forward.

Ruck

2018-10-10, 01:26 PM

What some people are basically arguing is that I should be willing to roll the dice on a given topic and risk hurting people to tell a joke. What I am saying is, I already have done so and they came up snake eyes three times in a row. I'm not rolling these particular dice anymore. I'll continue to roll other dice until I have evidence that they, too, are dice with which no one wins.
Perhaps the surest sign that the comic has gotten away from its roots in "jokes about D&D rules" is that you went with the classic pair of dice here and didn't say you rolled a 1.

The Giant

2018-10-10, 01:38 PM

Perhaps the surest sign that the comic has gotten away from its roots in "jokes about D&D rules" is that you went with the classic pair of dice here and didn't say you rolled a 1.

You know, as soon as I posted, I thought, "I should change that to a natural 1," but I thought I was being too precious. :smallsigh:

Resileaf

2018-10-10, 01:46 PM

You know, as soon as I posted, I thought, "I should change that to a natural 1," but I thought I was being too precious. :smallsigh:

You can't even win with gaming jokes.
What has the world gone to?!

Ruck

2018-10-10, 01:50 PM

You know, as soon as I posted, I thought, "I should change that to a natural 1," but I thought I was being too precious. :smallsigh:

As a one-time professional gambler, I'll just treat it as a shout-out to all of us who've made a living under those bright casino lights.

Liquor Box

2018-10-10, 02:51 PM

What I find ironic is how it seems to be mostly cis people expressing a "strong desire" for the comic to recognize trans people, with mostly trans people saying "no, really, that's fine..."

Is this true? I don't always know who on this forum is trans and who is not, but I must admit that I assumed most trans people were on the side of more trans representation in comic, rather than the "it's fine" side.

Rrmcklin

2018-10-10, 03:02 PM

Just to put some fun positivity in the thread, Sabine reads like a great genderfluid character to me. She presents female most of the time, but she presents male too, and not just for disguise.

Her boyfriend is embarrassed to discuss his sex life in public (and aren't we all), but he clearly has no problem with it in the bedroom.

She's unabashed, and unself-concious, and awesome.

Of course, she's a succubus in universe so maybe no one else sees her as fluid, and that's fair, but she's proud and accepted. Imho there have been some successes.

Also, please don't suggest that I see trans stuff everywhere because of my broken mutant imagination. I really don't.

Sabine is a boy sometimes and a girl other times, the interpretation, while likely rare, is reasonable.

I mean, she's also a living incarnation of evil.

I'm not sure how the best way to say this without coming off rude or condescending is (or if there's even a way to do that), but if you're going to be looking at some of her traits and say they're representation, I don't think you can actually exclude the rest of who she is.

And the whole "pure evil" thing seems like a pretty big negative to overlook in this interpretation.

Larrx

2018-10-10, 03:31 PM

I mean, she's also a living incarnation of evil.

I'm not sure how the best way to say this without coming off rude or condescending is (or if there's even a way to do that), but if you're going to be looking at some of her traits and say they're representation, I don't think you can actually exclude the rest of who she is.

And the whole "pure evil" thing seems like a pretty big negative to overlook in this interpretation.

It's about the whys. Sabine is certainly evil, and should be opposed by the heroes on such grounds. But she is fought to stop her from doing evil things. No one opposes her because she's a boy sometimes, they oppose her because of the evil she does . . . that's Okay . . . desirable even.

Trans people can be bad guys. If the protagonists dislike them only because they're trans, or if their status is writer shorthand to signal to the audience that they're evil despite that not being present in the work, then that's a problem.

That's not the case with Sabine though. Her actions are evil, but her gender is ancillary at best.

She's great.

Rrmcklin

2018-10-10, 03:37 PM

It's about the whys. Sabine is certainly evil, and should be opposed by the heroes on such grounds. But she is fought to stop her from doing evil things. No one opposes her because she's a boy sometimes, they oppose her because of the evil she does . . . that's Okay . . . desirable even.

Trans people can be bad guys. If the protagonists dislike them only because they're trans, or if their status is writer shorthand to signal to the audience that they're evil despite that not being present in the work, then that's a problem.

That's not the case with Sabine though. Her actions are evil, but her gender is ancillary at best.

She's great.

Huh, well that's true. I do think you exaggerated a bit how fluid she actually is though. The one mention of her and Nale "experimenting" doesn't imply it's something they do super often or that he's totally comfortable with. And I don't actually remember her ever being a guy just because. But that might just be my memory.

Anyway, on though the whole reptile thing seems to be passed I still want to give my opinion on it which is... mixed. Like, just looking at the first panel, I definitely get where the accusation of intentional trans-prostitute joke comes from. I think the next panel clarifies what the joke is actually supposed to be, but the implication from the first panel is still there.

So, yeah, harmful jokes don't stop being harmful just because the harm wasn't intentional, but I do think the distinction between intentional and unintentionally harmful is important, because the latter is probably more likely to be corrected if pointed out.

While I was reading the discussion I kept feeling weird how it seemed to be either "trans-prostitute is the obvious and only reading of the joke" or "there was no trans-prostitute element at all", and I felt like both where extremes. It seemed to me the joke was clearly about the reptiles not having breasts bit, but Rich unintentionally used transphobic set up.

Zenzis

2018-10-10, 03:39 PM

Larrx

2018-10-10, 04:19 PM

Sabine doesn't really come across as genderfluid at all to me. Maybe I am forgetting something, but she just feels like a shape-changer that sometimes disguises in a male form. There is that one off joking comment with Nale, but doing some obvious experimenting in the bedroom when you are a shape-shifter doesn't really say much about your identity. Like I said though I could easily be forgetting a reference somewhere.

I don't think you are forgetting a reference, you knew the scene I meant, and I think your read is as valid as (and almost certainly more representative of the fanbase then) mine.

But just for fun (I swear really!), imagine you don't see yourself in media very often. Sabine has, on panel, been a guy thrice iirc. Dwarves blacksmith, prison guard in first town whose name I can't remember (which throws doubt on the whole icrc thing), and anachronistic cop in Cliffport.

It's a real world thing for people to do stuff like that easier with an intimate partner, or around strangers. I will be the first to admit that that's likely not what's going on, but it FITS!

It's really fun headcanon is all, honestly, but it still feels nice.

Linneris

2018-10-10, 04:21 PM

Really?

What I find ironic is how it seems to be mostly cis people expressing a "strong desire" for the comic to recognize trans people, with mostly trans people saying "no, really, that's fine..."

I'm trans, I'm fine with the comic having no confirmed trans characters, I never thought of a transphobic interpretation for the lizardfolk joke and I still consider it far-fetched, and I only speak for myself here and, for all I know, it's not a representative opinion at all. :)

As for Sabine, honestly, just because she's a shapeshifter doesn't mean her gender identity doesn't fall into the conventional binary. I see it no different than a roleplayer playing characters of different genders. Also, Mr. Real Blacksmith and presumably the CPPD officer and Dave the guard were existing people she impersonated, not personas she invented for herself.

RatElemental

2018-10-10, 04:28 PM

I'm trans, I'm fine with the comic having no confirmed trans characters, I never thought of a transphobic interpretation for the lizardfolk joke and I still consider it far-fetched, and I only speak for myself here and, for all I know, it's not a representative opinion at all. :)

As for Sabine, honestly, just because she's a shapeshifter doesn't mean her gender identity doesn't fall into the conventional binary. I see it no different than a roleplayer playing characters of different genders. Also, Mr. Real Blacksmith and presumably the CPPD officer and Dave the guard were existing people she impersonated, not personas she invented for herself.

I almost thought that was a post I'd made there.

(Not really, just chiming in to say you're not alone.)

Zenzis

2018-10-10, 04:51 PM

I don't think you are forgetting a reference, you knew the scene I meant, and I think your read is as valid as (and almost certainly more representative of the fanbase then) mine.

But just for fun (I swear really!), imagine you don't see yourself in media very often. Sabine has, on panel, been a guy thrice iirc. Dwarves blacksmith, prison guard in first town whose name I can't remember (which throws doubt on the whole icrc thing), and anachronistic cop in Cliffport.

It's a real world thing for people to do stuff like that easier with an intimate partner, or around strangers. I will be the first to admit that that's likely not what's going on, but it FITS!

It's really fun headcanon is all, honestly, but it still feels nice.

I don't see myself in media very often, and I get what you are saying. Absolutely headcannon whatever you want, I was just giving my thoughts on the interpretation. I do appreciate trying to add positivity to the thread though. :)

I'm trans, I'm fine with the comic having no confirmed trans characters, I never thought of a transphobic interpretation for the lizardfolk joke and I still consider it far-fetched, and I only speak for myself here and, for all I know, it's not a representative opinion at all. :)

I get the lizardfolk thing. I think part of the point that The Giant was making so eloquently was that it hurt people. It isn't necessarily about it being any particular label; people were hurt by it. People have been similarly hurt by jokes on the same topic. That is what is so "healthy" or "wholesome" or "positive" about what he said that you don't see a lot. He recognized that he was doing something that was hurting people and instead of debating about whether it was right or wrong for them to be hurt by it, he acknowledged they were hurt, acknowledged that he might not even be capable of understanding the sources of the hurt, and said he would make a serious effort not to do it again.

Hardcore

2018-10-10, 06:15 PM

I don't see myself in media very often, and I get what you are saying. Absolutely headcannon whatever you want, I was just giving my thoughts on the interpretation. I do appreciate trying to add positivity to the thread though. :)

I get the lizardfolk thing. I think part of the point that The Giant was making so eloquently was that it hurt people. It isn't necessarily about it being any particular label; people were hurt by it. People have been similarly hurt by jokes on the same topic. That is what is so "healthy" or "wholesome" or "positive" about what he said that you don't see a lot. He recognized that he was doing something that was hurting people and instead of debating about whether it was right or wrong for them to be hurt by it, he acknowledged they were hurt, acknowledged that he might not even be capable of understanding the sources of the hurt, and said he would make a serious effort not to do it again.

To be correct he did not do anything to feel ashamed of.
Also the Giant is not responsible for peoples reaction to his work.
All he can do is saying; "I do my best, and if you don't like it then only you can do something about that by changing your mind set".

Adghar

2018-10-10, 06:18 PM

...I think part of the point that The Giant was making so eloquently was that it hurt people. It isn't necessarily about it being any particular label; people were hurt by it. People have been similarly hurt by jokes on the same topic. That is what is so "healthy" or "wholesome" or "positive" about what he said that you don't see a lot. He recognized that he was doing something that was hurting people and instead of debating about whether it was right or wrong for them to be hurt by it, he acknowledged they were hurt, acknowledged that he might not even be capable of understanding the sources of the hurt, and said he would make a serious effort not to do it again.

I was honestly surprised. I think I've been hanging around Facebook and video gaming forums for too long. Because in those places, the default by an overwhelming majority is to dig your heels into your position and say "Well I'm not offended by that, so you're just being overly sensitive!" I've found it incredibly rare, in the past ~3 years, to see people acknowledging others' viewpoints because their personal backgrounds are different and they thus can't speak for how others' experiences have shaped others.

Modern people seem utterly incapable of saying, "I'm not you, so even though x never happens to me, I understand that x can be a problem for you."

Probably one of the reasons I keep revisiting this thread to see a veritable bastion of civility compared to what I'm used to. Look at that, peaceful discourse! A rare and precious thing, that.

137beth

2018-10-10, 10:56 PM

I tried writing a response to some of this discussion, but it made me angry so I stopped.

However, there is one thing I will respond to:

I'd like to say thanks to the Giant for his succinct and well-received post. I know he doesn't come to the forums much anymore, but I'm glad he did before it started getting ugly again.
I'm not sure if this is a topic I should post on a different subforum, but are there examples of good trans representation in fantasy people could recommend? The only ones I know of are 'Wicked and the Divine' and 'Alesha, who Smiles at Death' from m:tg (which I thought was a lot more tastefully handled than it could've been).

Well, since we're on a webcomic forum, I'll list the fantasy webcomics that I've read which have trans characters:

Sister Claire (sisterclaire.com) is my current favorite webcomic, and it has multiple trans and nonbinary characters. The format is somewhat different from other webcomics, in that it alternates between comics and prose short-story prequels. The prequels (called "Missing Moments") let the authors explore some ideas that aren't as easily told in comic form. There are also plenty of characters of various sexual orientations, and the word-of-author is that there are no straight people in the Claireverse.

Namesake (http://namesakecomic.com): has both enby and binary trans characters, although neither is explored in depth.

Widdershins (widdershinscomic.com) recently introduced a trans character.

No End (noendcomic.com) has several trans characters.

Sleepless Domain (sleeplessdomain.com) has a trans girl, who we meet long before finding out she is trans.

The Property of Hate (thepropertyofhate.com) has trans characters.

Fyraltari

2018-10-11, 12:46 AM

I'd like to say thanks to the Giant for his succinct and well-received post. I know he doesn't come to the forums much anymore, but I'm glad he did before it started getting ugly again.
I'm not sure if this is a topic I should post on a different subforum, but are there examples of good trans representation in fantasy people could recommend? The only ones I know of are 'Wicked and the Divine' and 'Alesha, who Smiles at Death' from m:tg (which I thought was a lot more tastefully handled than it could've been).

I don't really know if this counts as representation, but the Watch sub-serie of the Discworld novels (EDIT starting with Feet of Clay) have an arc about the Dwarves that is allegorical for Feminism and integration of LGBT people.
To develop: the settings gives the old "there are no female dwarves" thing its own explanation: all dwarves are culturally expected to behave "dwarf-like" that is drink a lot, swear , pick fights, etc. regardless of biological sex that is obscured by so much clothing even other dwarves can't know. However when coming into contact with human civilisation a good number of dwarves decide they like wearing make-up, dresses and not drinking themselves silly at 3 in the morning. This drives the more... traditionnal elements of dwarvish society nuts.

I bring this up, because this arc is what made me really think about what it is like for transgender people for the first time.

Larrx

2018-10-14, 07:44 PM

So could there have been a way to word that joke that would have made it harmless?

Assuming you're being honest, than yes. The two problems are the sex work, and Roy's reaction. You can deal with that super easy. They are store keeps now, one has gotten breast implants. Roy rolls his eyes, maybe he says, "That's ridiculus."

And done.

It's not hard. Same one panel jab at the 4e illustrators is maintained, and no trans people are sad.

If you come at it honestly, find the sticking points, and comprimise, you can make a better piece of art.

5a Violista

2018-10-14, 10:21 PM

Okay, thanks for the answer.

Having them merchants and changing Roy's reaction seems like it would work, you're right.

Anymage

2018-10-15, 02:39 AM

Arbitrarily, and with no official basis for this. Felix from the mechane is a trans man.

Because stick figures don't have enough detail to make passing a problem (plus magic can cover the few details that might), and people in universe care far more about who you are now than what bits you were born with.

And I may be cis myself, but I have a feeling that most of the trans people here would be tickled pink if there were a universe where passing was a nonissue, and trans status was a nonissue that nobody cared about.

KorvinStarmast

2018-10-15, 11:54 AM

They'll complain about it, they'll stomp their feet and write huge multi-quote debate threads, they'll tell me in their best concern troll voice that they're worried that other people might be upset, but they won't tell me they, themselves, were injured. There's a qualitative difference when it comes to how people respond to this one issue, and thus I am choosing to treat it uniquely. Until I see evidence that another topic has the same effect, there is no reason to think that this course of action will be extended to additional subject matter. Thank you for the more detailed explanation.

(I had a hard time grokking the people who got bent out of shape regarding Bandana, and I decided that it was not worth the energy to try. I guess you don't have that luxury, as this body of work is your vocation).

Lacuna Caster

2018-10-15, 12:58 PM

It's a fallacy for a reason. In the fifteen years I've been drawing OOTS, transgender-ism is the sole topic that has seen multiple people telling me my work caused them personal pain on separate occasions over separate jokes. There is plenty of empirical evidence that I have a particular blind spot on this topic, and that said blind spot is particularly harmful.

Literally no one has ever told me that my handling of Bandana's sexuality or Vaarsuvius' gender or Roy's race or Haley's penchant for unfortunate language or any of a hundred things swirling around Miko has hurt them on a personal level. They'll complain about it, they'll stomp their feet and write huge multi-quote debate threads, they'll tell me in their best concern troll voice that they're worried that other people might be upset, but they won't tell me they, themselves, were injured.
Forgive me, but I'm not sure I see where you're going with this argument. You seem to be implying that the foot-stomping multi-quote debate thread folks (which I suppose includes me) do in fact feel injured and just won't say so openly. If you like, I could give some pertinent identity-based reasons for why I might personally empathise with, say, Miko or Celia and felt personally slighted by their handling, but that would strike me as a weakness of the argument, not a strength. One can always claim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?305273-I-m-finding-it-hard-to-care-anymore-about-these-characters&p=16112475&viewfull=1#post16112475) that someone's sense of injury is based on an incorrect reading or lack of perspective rather than genuine evidence of harm.

woweedd

2018-10-15, 01:01 PM

Craft (Cheese)

2018-10-15, 01:30 PM

Hello, just adding my voice as a trans person (and a writer of trans fiction) here.

I actually started reading OOTS back before I realized I was trans, and at the time I just saw the belt of gender changing and V's earlier gender-ambiguity stuff as jokes that just didn't really land with me. It wasn't until years later, after I started my transition I reread those comics and while they're nowhere near as bad as the worst stuff out there they started to make me really uncomfortable. OOTS is deeply important to me now, but if I had begun reading it today, I'm not sure how I would have reacted. Usually when I encounter stuff like that in my reading/watching nowadays I just don't finish the story.

That said, I 100% support Rich's decision to not try to include transgender characters in the comic. While some trans folks disagree, my personal opinion (and I'll skip the long list of reasons why I believe so) is that the best thing cis writers can do to help trans readers is to not get in the way.

Don't include transphobic jokes in your stories, don't engage in trans-hostile tropes or plotlines (e.g. "gender detective"), don't go out of your way to contradict trans headcanons. If you're absolutely certain that you can write a trans character without doing these things, then my advice to you is you probably shouldn't be as certain as you are, especially since trans people argue amongst ourselves all the time as to whether a trope is trans-hostile or not, or whether a particular story is pulling that trope in the first place. I guarantee you know much less on the subject than you think you do.

And if you're not certain... then trying and failing at inclusion is much worse than not trying at all, in my opinion. Rich's decision here is the right one.

To cis creators who genuinely want to be allies to trans folks and are sitting here wondering "well if you're telling me not to write trans characters in my own work, then how can I help?": The best thing you can do actually is help trans creators get our work out there. Give a recommendation to your agent, plug their works on social media, donate to help someone with real talent get a spot in a workshop/writer's retreat, etc. We have our own stories and we're eager to tell them, we just need a little help to get our foot in the door, with so many forces in every industry pushing hard to keep us out.

(Also, my OOTS trans headcanons are Genderfluid Sabine and Agender V. And while I'm not saying Rich should have gone in this direction, the most fertile ground for exploring actual trans issues in the story is with Nale and Elan: They're both trans men who respond to the pressures of masculinity in very different ways.)

And I may be cis myself, but I have a feeling that most of the trans people here would be tickled pink if there were a universe where passing was a nonissue, and trans status was a nonissue that nobody cared about.

Just to single this out as an example, but this issue is actually a lot more complicated than you think. A world without trans oppression is not the same thing as a world where being trans doesn't matter. A world where being trans doesn't matter would look something like the gender abolitionism that some TERF-types (supposedly) wanna do.

"Passing" is a bit of an oppressive concept in itself, as it assumes cissexist norms about what a "man" and a "woman" are exist in that society in the first place. Passing wouldn't really exist in a society where such norms don't exist and people don't assume genders at all. And it's not something all trans people can or want to have.

(As an agender person, an issue for me is that our society tries to put you into either the male box or the female box by default, and there's nothing you can do with your presentation to prevent people from trying to "guess" what you "actually" are, you can only affect the probability of a particular guess. Passing will never be possible for me, because nobody will ever see me as genderless without my explicitly telling them so. The best I can pull off is to wear something like a pronoun pin? Which isn't really the same thing as having passing privilege at all, I'm just passing the explicit message with the pin instead of my words.)

There's also the question of what happens to trans culture in such a society: If nobody cares that you're trans, then trans culture can't really exist.

Linneris

2018-10-15, 04:42 PM

I'm not sure V being agender is headcanon so much as it is the most straightforward reading of the evidence we have.

woweedd

2018-10-15, 05:19 PM

I'm not sure V being agender is headcanon so much as it is the most straightforward reading of the evidence we have.
Well, genderqueer, as The Giant himself puts it.

Sadsharks

2018-10-15, 10:38 PM

zimmerwald1915

2018-10-16, 08:20 AM

To cis creators who genuinely want to be allies to trans folks and are sitting here wondering "well if you're telling me not to write trans characters in my own work, then how can I help?": The best thing you can do actually is help trans creators get our work out there. Give a recommendation to your agent, plug their works on social media, donate to help someone with real talent get a spot in a workshop/writer's retreat, etc. We have our own stories and we're eager to tell them, we just need a little help to get our foot in the door, with so many forces in every industry pushing hard to keep us out.
Oh, they can do better than that. Strike. Strike until trans authors are the only ones left to publish, and publishers will be forced to take up their stories in order to sell anything.

Hardcore

2018-10-16, 10:49 AM

Assuming you're being honest, than yes. The two problems are the sex work, and Roy's reaction. You can deal with that super easy. They are store keeps now, one has gotten breast implants. Roy rolls his eyes, maybe he says, "That's ridiculus."

And done.

It's not hard. Same one panel jab at the 4e illustrators is maintained, and no trans people are sad.

If you come at it honestly, find the sticking points, and comprimise, you can make a better piece of art.

Hm. No, would be confusing to me. Maybe if I knew anything about the context, but likely I would only read it as making fun of people that are making body modifications. Bring in store keepers and I would wonder what they had to do with it, if anything.

Also what would prostitution got to do with anything?

mjasghar

2018-10-16, 11:57 AM

Zimmerwald comics are mainly freelancers - so who is going to pay their bills and food etc for them and their dependents whilst on strike?
It also feeds the right wing narrative where they claim they are being discriminated against. It also pushes readers who would be happy to read a balanced story, but put off by comics solely about a culture they aren’t part of, into right wing comics.
If you have a group telling the mainstream they are the ones being oppressed - and then someone from the left pushes something that fees that narrative, don’t be surprised when the right wing starts dominating mainstream parties

Peelee

2018-10-16, 12:57 PM

Political stuff

More political stuff

So, how about that local sports team?

woweedd

2018-10-16, 01:26 PM

So, how about that local sports team?
My post has now been deleted.

Emanick

2018-10-16, 02:46 PM

So, how about that local sports team?

It's doing really great, thanks for asking! Both of them are, really.

Peelee

2018-10-16, 02:48 PM

It's doing really great, thanks for asking! Both of them are, really.

Hooray! Go Newburyport, MA, USA Mooses! I took a stab at the mascot.

Craft (Cheese)

2018-10-16, 03:23 PM

Oh, they can do better than that. Strike. Strike until trans authors are the only ones left to publish, and publishers will be forced to take up their stories in order to sell anything.

It'd be great if that happened, but it's not really an actionable plan on the individual level. If a single cis author refuses to sell any more manuscripts in protest of trans exclusion, all that accomplishes is the publisher will just buy from other cis authors instead. We'd have to get a lot of authors, especially the big names, to get in on it, as well as a way to enforce a "picket line," as it were.

That's not to say you shouldn't do that, though, if you're in a position such that you can actually make such a demand and hope for it to be enforced. By all means, if you're a big hollywood director a studio really wants to court for a project, and you can say "I refuse to take this job unless you get a transgender lead writer/actor" then please do so! But most individuals don't have that sort of power and they should focus on more effective ways to leverage themselves instead.

Peelee

2018-10-16, 03:25 PM

It'd be great if that happened, but it's not really an actionable plan

I didn't know actionable could use used that way until today.

AceOfFools

2018-10-16, 04:08 PM

Forgive me, but I'm not sure I see where you're going with this argument. You seem to be implying that the foot-stomping multi-quote debate thread folks (which I suppose includes me) do in fact feel injured and just won't say so openly. If you like, I could give some pertinent identity-based reasons for why I might personally empathise with, say, Miko or Celia and felt personally slighted by their handling, but that would strike me as a weakness of the argument, not a strength. One can always claim (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?305273-I-m-finding-it-hard-to-care-anymore-about-these-characters&p=16112475&viewfull=1#post16112475) that someone's sense of injury is based on an incorrect reading or lack of perspective rather than genuine evidence of harm.

Let me put it to you this way:

As part of the "prefers Dragonborn with mammeries" crowd, I felt that the lizardfolk prostitute comic attacked me. It echoed a lot of the ****heels from both sides of the issue on Wizards official forums (where I also posted at the time) who got quite vicious, even if it wasn't actively insulting.

But it didn't hurt me. Dragonborn mameries are a mild aesthetic preference for me, not some big part of my identity. I have *much* stronger feelings about, e.g. how that one tiefling's mail shirt had sideboob.

It's like a cat-prefering person making a joke at a someone's preference for dogs. Not going to land for me because it's a joke at my expense, but not deeply hurtful to anything core to my identity.

Contrast this with someone calling me a basement dweller whom women will never talk to for liking ttRPGs. I met my ex-wife at the table and I own my own home, you hypothetical asshat. (And trans+ people have it way worse than gamers, as there are people in various positions of authority actively trying to harm them in unsubtle ways, for which these transphobes receive veneration and support, but that's as far over the "no politics" line as I'm willing to go).

Rich is saying that people who complain about his handling of Bandana are at most superficially offended. They may not like it, and may even have valid aesthetic reasons for not liking it, but it didn't cause anyone actual trauma. No one is in or near tears at how an author they respected could be so cruel to them.

Rich's position is (if I may be so presumptuous), basically "I'm willing to offend people, but I want to avoid causung anyone serious emotional pain."

It's a position I will laud.

In fact, let me do so right now:

I know that. And right now, I'm choosing to not please the people who say I shouldn't worry about this stuff.

Rich, you are my hero.

martianmister

2018-10-16, 04:16 PM

How to introduce a transgender character:

"Hello goblin lady I never met before. We are looking for Redcloak's niece."

"You're looking at him right now."

Emanick

2018-10-16, 05:30 PM

How to introduce a transgender character:

"Hello goblin lady I never met before. We are looking for Redcloak's niece."

"You're looking at him right now."

Calling it now: Jirix is Redcloak's niece. With a very orange sunburn.

zimmerwald1915

2018-10-16, 06:16 PM

It'd be great if that happened, but it's not really an actionable plan on the individual level. If a single cis author refuses to sell any more manuscripts in protest of trans exclusion, all that accomplishes is the publisher will just buy from other cis authors instead. We'd have to get a lot of authors, especially the big names, to get in on it, as well as a way to enforce a "picket line," as it were.

That's not to say you shouldn't do that, though, if you're in a position such that you can actually make such a demand and hope for it to be enforced. By all means, if you're a big hollywood director a studio really wants to court for a project, and you can say "I refuse to take this job unless you get a transgender lead writer/actor" then please do so! But most individuals don't have that sort of power and they should focus on more effective ways to leverage themselves instead.
That or rebuild the writer's union. But that's a pipe dream. One does not organize today.

Ruck

2018-10-16, 06:59 PM

How to introduce a transgender character:

"Hello goblin lady I never met before. We are looking for Redcloak's niece."

"You're looking at him right now."

I don't think you want to introduce a transgender character with an immediate implication that they can't pass for their chosen gender.

Goblin_Priest

2018-10-16, 07:38 PM

Everytime this comes up, someone always rushes to deploy the slippery slope: that caring about this one thing might lead to caring about everything, and then where would we be?

It's a fallacy for a reason. In the fifteen years I've been drawing OOTS, transgender-ism is the sole topic that has seen multiple people telling me my work caused them personal pain on separate occasions over separate jokes. There is plenty of empirical evidence that I have a particular blind spot on this topic, and that said blind spot is particularly harmful.

Literally no one has ever told me that my handling of Bandana's sexuality or Vaarsuvius' gender or Roy's race or Haley's penchant for unfortunate language or any of a hundred things swirling around Miko has hurt them on a personal level. They'll complain about it, they'll stomp their feet and write huge multi-quote debate threads, they'll tell me in their best concern troll voice that they're worried that other people might be upset, but they won't tell me they, themselves, were injured. There's a qualitative difference when it comes to how people respond to this one issue, and thus I am choosing to treat it uniquely. Until I see evidence that another topic has the same effect, there is no reason to think that this course of action will be extended to additional subject matter.

What some people are basically arguing is that I should be willing to roll the dice on a given topic and risk hurting people to tell a joke. What I am saying is, I already have done so and they came up snake eyes three times in a row. I'm not rolling these particular dice anymore. I'll continue to roll other dice until I have evidence that they, too, are dice with which no one wins.

I know that. And right now, I'm choosing to not please the people who say I shouldn't worry about this stuff.

Fair enough. I don't think you should feel compelled not to write about it, but I also don't think you should feel compelled to write about it either. Your experience is reason enough to justify your desire to avoid the topic.

Perusing many of the testimonies you have shared, or that others have shared here, though, I get the distinct impression that the problem lied not as much as your handling of the topic, but that gender identity crisis is just such a huge gaping wound in these people, that any allusion to it returns the pain. I don't think you have yourself to blame, or that you can really aspire to one day be able to depict these subjects without seeing what you want to avoid. But it's fine if you prefer to just avoid the topic. It doesn't really feel like self-censorship to me, despite what some others have claimed. The equivalent of ET turning guns into walkie-talkies, at most.

martianmister

2018-10-16, 08:05 PM

I don't think you want to introduce a transgender character with an immediate implication that they can't pass for their chosen gender.

Gender identity is different from gender expression and biological sex.

Ruck

2018-10-16, 08:07 PM

Gender identity is different from gender expression and biological sex.

It still feels like your scene is playing the confusion for a cheap joke, which is exactly how I think it should not be done.

martianmister

2018-10-16, 08:16 PM

It still feels like your scene is playing the confusion for a cheap joke, which is exactly how I think it should not be done.

Which confusion? They were looking for a niece, they asked someone they thought as female.

Craft (Cheese)

2018-10-16, 08:50 PM

With the caveat that it's lacking crucial context needed to do a full sensitivity assessment, the exchange reads badly to me, and I'll explain why.

When you write about marginalized people in general, though I'll focus on trans issues here, the question you must keep asking yourself is "Who Am I Writing This For?"

When you write a scene in which a trans character is misgendered, you're going to cause pain to a trans reader. This is a given, there's no way to write a misgendering scene that won't make us at least wince, maybe cry. Causing pain for the audience is not a tool a writer should leave out of their toolbox but it is one that should be applied very cautiously, and only to appropriate purposes. Why are you writing this scene this way? Who Are You Writing This For?

Is it to introduce the character to the audience as trans? Bad idea. The misgender-then-correction reveal is better than the "showing the character naked" reveal, but that's faint praise. Exactly what the best option is depends on the medium, your style, and the narrative context in which the reveal occurs. But you'll almost always have better options than that.

Is it to set up a joke? VERY bad idea, since in most cases you're setting up the audience expecting them to laugh at a trans person's expense. The only time I think using this for comedy is okay is if you're a trans person writing jokes in the "relatable depression meme" style, and if you're not trans, then this is always deeply disrespectful, no exceptions.

martianmister

2018-10-17, 05:33 AM

When you write a scene in which a trans character is misgendered, you're going to cause pain to a trans reader. This is a given, there's no way to write a misgendering scene that won't make us at least wince, maybe cry.

Misgendering is the whole point of trans characters' existence, or else there would be only cis characters. Trans people exist because there is a misgendering based on the biological sex of a newborn baby. How can you show trans people's existence to the world without showing that being misgendered is a thing? What you preaching is not that different from the classical case of creating white-only casts or hiding the existence of homosexual characters. It creates a media where being regressive about diversity is preferable because it's safer and easier.

Larrx

2018-10-17, 06:30 AM

Misgendering is the whole point of trans characters' existence, or else there would be only cis characters.

Misgendering refers to a trans person being addressed as, referred to, or mistaken for the wrong gender. I really hope it was just the definition that was tripping you up.

Because otherwise it sounds like you believe there is only one story that could ever be told about the transgender experience, which . . .

So, benefits of doubt are cool, right guys?

/crosses fingers

martianmister

2018-10-17, 07:02 AM

Misgendering refers to a trans person being addressed as, referred to, or mistaken for the wrong gender.

Which is exactly what makes them a trans. :smallconfused:

hroþila

2018-10-17, 07:13 AM

Which is exactly what makes them a trans. :smallconfused:
I think what Larrx means is that being assigned a gender at birth and being raised as that gender until you realize that's not the gender you identify as is not the same as being misgendered later in life after you've chosen to identify as a different gender. You're trans even if no one ever misgenders you, and it is extremely impolite to misgender a trans person. So misgendering =/= gender assignment.

Larrx

2018-10-17, 07:23 AM

Hm. No, would be confusing to me. Maybe if I knew anything about the context, but likely I would only read it as making fun of people that are making body modifications. Bring in store keepers and I would wonder what they had to do with it, if anything.

Also what would prostitution got to do with anything?

First, and I don't mean for this to come off as agressive, but your potential confusion is acceptable here. This was always going to be a niche joke. If you didn't follow discussions about sexism in ttrpg art you would have no idea what was being made fun of. That's okay. Niche jokes are okay, and I've been confused by jokes before. There was a "Lost" reference and a Greek myth Cyclops thing nearly back to back, and I got neither. Until I read, like, the third post in that pages discussion thread. So, not really a big deal.

I chose salespeople as a neutral example, because you're right. The mind immediately goes to the question of what the new breasts has to do with the job. That actually makes the intended joke better, by the way. Boobies aren't really a sensible purchase if your career is fighting dragons in dungeons. If the dragonborn gain economic advantage from their surgery it undercuts the joke.

Sex work has to do with it because of this:

There was a time, probably about thirty-thirty five years ago when the only trans characters in media were: sex workers, murder victims, or murdered sex workers. The motive for the murders was always 'straight man hooks up with MtF women, finds out she still has some boy parts, is disgusted, and kills her.'

So you can hopefully see how that one panel lines up with that narrative unpleasantly.

And by the way, the media at that time was doing it that way for a reason. Trans folks were often effectively unemployable, and were victims of violence at much higher rates than cis folks. Things have gotten better, but they're not fixed yet.

So, you know, that's Where the opinion comes from.

martianmister

2018-10-17, 07:26 AM

I think what Larrx means is that being assigned a gender at birth and being raised as that gender until you realize that's not the gender you identify as is not the same as being misgendered later in life after you've chosen to identify as a different gender. You're trans even if no one ever misgenders you, and it is extremely impolite to misgender a trans person. So misgendering =/= gender assignment.

Even assuming there is a difference between "misgendering" and "gender assignment," (which I don't think so) that doesn't apply in my case. Redcloak's niece is assigned as female at birth, that's why he's called a niece, and that's why they were looking for a female goblin in my hypothetical scenario. And Craft (Cheese) called that a case of misgendering.

hroþila

2018-10-17, 07:36 AM

Larrx

2018-10-17, 07:44 AM

Which is exactly what makes them a trans. :smallconfused:

No. Misgendering happens to cis people too. Talk to a guy you know who happens to have long hair, or girl with short. Ask them if it ever happens, and if so if it's annoying. If it does happen, or ever has, does that make them trans? No, right?

Misgendering is an, often hurtful, thing that happens to you from the outside. It has nothing to do with identity.

Larrx

2018-10-17, 07:56 AM

Anymage

2018-10-17, 07:59 AM

Even assuming there is a difference between "misgendering" and "gender assignment," (which I don't think so) that doesn't apply in my case. Redcloak's niece is assigned as female at birth, that's why he's called a niece, and that's why they were looking for a female goblin in my hypothetical scenario. And Craft (Cheese) called that a case of misgendering.

To give an example where misgendering happens to cis people, imagine any movie where the high school football coach says "hit the showers, ladies" to the team. (Where, because I feel like I have to spell this out, none of them are actually ladies.)

And while it's possible for someone to assume the wrong gender as an honest mistake, usually by using outdated information (having heard about Redcloak's niece from someone who hasn't seen them in a long time and is unaware that she had since come out as a he), the setup for that would be so complex and convoluted as to be pointless. Especially because the "payoff" would just be some barkeep correcting the team and catching them up when they ask for information. The setup to payoff ratio is too off to make it worth adding to this comic.

I chose salespeople as a neutral example, because you're right. The mind immediately goes to the question of what the new breasts has to do with the job. That actually makes the intended joke better, by the way. Boobies aren't really a sensible purchase if your career is fighting dragons in dungeons. If the dragonborn gain economic advantage from their surgery it undercuts the joke.

Dragonboobs would be tricky to pull off in any way without getting it wrong somehow. The major defense Rich has here is that people at the time were well aware of the D&D microdrama, and test readers wouldn't have even thought of the trans angle.

Although I am curious, since it seems like in OotS there are only two ways to do trans people right. Either the "Dumbledore was gay" angle (where it's revealed through Word of God later, even though it's never alluded to in text), or simply not having them at all. They're functionally identical for readers, but I wonder people's thoughts on the Dumbledore option.

martianmister

2018-10-17, 08:07 AM

But that wasn't because they were looking for a niece in your scenario, but because they addressed him as "goblin lady".

Still, just like gender assignment, Redcloak's niece wants to look like a "lady," it's his choice to wear "female clothes" and not to change his biological sex. In that scenario I was trying to make a point about the differences between gender identity, biological sex and gender expression.

No. Misgendering happens to cis people too..

Did I claim otherwise?

Talk to a guy you know who happens to have long hair, or girl with short. Ask them if it ever happens, and if so if it's annoying. If it does happen, or ever has, does that make them trans? No, right?

In a hypothetical society that base gender distinction on hair? Yes. But not the ones we know of. They weren't misgendered at birth. And weren't raised as wrong gender.

Misgendering is an, often hurtful, thing that happens to you from the outside. It has nothing to do with identity

Just like gender assignment from birth.

To give an example where misgendering happens to cis people, imagine any movie where the high school football coach says "hit the showers, ladies" to the team. (Where, because I feel like I have to spell this out, none of them are actually ladies.

As I said before, I never claimed that cis people can't be misgendered. Saying that trans people's existence is based on misgendering is not the same as saying that only trans people can be misgendered.

Although I am curious, since it seems like in OotS there are only two ways to do trans people right. Either the "Dumbledore was gay" angle (where it's revealed through Word of God later, even though it's never alluded to in text), or simply not having them at all. They're functionally identical for readers, but I wonder people's thoughts on the Dumbledore option.

By word of god, there is no (known to us) openly trans people in OotS world.

Larrx

2018-10-17, 08:16 AM

Although I am curious, since it seems like in OotS there are only two ways to do trans people right. Either the "Dumbledore was gay" angle (where it's revealed through Word of God later, even though it's never alluded to in text), or simply not having them at all. They're functionally identical for readers, but I wonder people's thoughts on the Dumbledore option.

The Dumbldore Option has always struck me as a dodge. A head fake toward inclusion without having to actually include. I wish we could get the real thing, but absent that I'd rather have silence than 'no, we love you and you were in there, you just need to read the wiki to find yourself.'

hamishspence

2018-10-17, 08:23 AM

The Dumbldore Option has always struck me as a dodge. A head fake toward inclusion without having to actually include.

In that particular case, it was an interview question:

"Has Dumbledore ever been in love?"
"Yes, once. With Grindelwald".

Larrx

2018-10-17, 08:38 AM

In that particular case, it was an interview question:

"Has Dumbledore ever been in love?"
"Yes, once. With Grindelwald".

Yes, the author of the work claimed it was in there, despite the fact that it was nowhere in the text of the work. Do you think that when people reference something called the Dumbledore Option that we have never heard of Dumbledore. What did you think was meant?

Larrx

2018-10-17, 08:51 AM

trans people's existence is based on misgendering

Gross. /tenchar

Peelee

2018-10-17, 08:57 AM

Yes, the author of the work claimed it was in there, despite the fact that it was nowhere in the text of the work. Do you think that when people reference something called the Dumbledore Option that we have never heard of Dumbledore. What did you think was meant?

Similarly, the Hamishspence Option is known as when someone is uncertain about the specifics of a work, and a certain forumite just absolutely excels at providing them.:smallwink:

martianmister

2018-10-17, 08:59 AM

Yes, the author of the work claimed it was in there, despite the fact that it was nowhere in the text of the work.

It was there in the text.

Gross. /tenchar

Great contribution. Calling other people gross for thinking different from you.

Kish

2018-10-17, 09:02 AM

Similarly, the Hamishspence Option is known as when someone is uncertain about the specifics of a work, and a certain forumite just absolutely excels at providing them.:smallwink:
Unfortunately, I'm also observing a tendency to interpret "I find the author's position uncompelling" as "I don't know what the author's position is," however unambiguous the former is.

Iruka

2018-10-17, 09:13 AM

It was there in the text.

I always heard it was not in the text, can you point to some relevant text passages?

Resileaf

2018-10-17, 09:16 AM

I think this is veering somewhat a bit too close to hostility, so I would suggest that some people chill a little so as to avoid saying (or writing, I guess) things they'd regret later.

As far as definitions go, most of us are not trans. We don't know what it's like to be trans, we've never had to question the genders we identified as. As such, we don't really have anything to base that experience on, or how it would affect us. In such cases, it would very much be better to not insist we know how to handle the subject, no matter how well-meaning we are about it. Rich meant well, and learned he hurt people despite it. The solution is very much to follow the advice of trans people on trans issues. If it means not including trans references in stories to avoid being hurtful, then it's what must be done.

Maybe in the future, gender misnaming will be more appropriate as a punchline, but it can't work as one as long as trans people are hurt by such jokes hitting hard due to real life issues.

Larrx

2018-10-17, 09:22 AM

Great contribution. Calling other people gross for thinking different from you.

Not you, I have no idea who you are. The statement was gross. Transgender people are more than one thing.

I stand by that.

Larrx

2018-10-17, 09:27 AM

Worldsong

2018-10-17, 09:31 AM

I always heard it was not in the text, can you point to some relevant text passages?

From what I remember Dumbledore had a rather strong liking for flower patterns.

On a more serious note I always though what we learned of Dumbledore's relation with Grindelwald alluded to it. The only reason Grindelwald became as big a threat as he did was because Dumbledore couldn't bring himself to stop his old friend, which quickly bleeds over into him being unable to treat the man he loved as an enemy until he didn't have a choice any longer.

And I hear people saying that it should have been pointed to more emphatically but that sounds like treating it as more special than it is when ideally we'd treat homosexuality as being as mundane as heterosexuality.

Potatopeelerkin

2018-10-17, 09:51 AM

I've been lurking in this thread for quite a while now, and since I finally have an account I guess I'll throw in my two cents.

Full disclosure: I am not trans. I am a lesbian, and that's the perspective I'm writing from. I'm not trying to speak for anyone other than myself here.

If it's done in good faith, with a level of thought behind it, I can't imagine it being a problem. If there were issues with the previous jokes, it was because Rich didn't know to consider it as a potential problem at all. The situation would be much different, I imagine, if Rich went into things armed with that knowledge to begin with.

Personally, when it comes to gay characters, I would much rather see intelligent representation as written by a clever, funny writer, and accept the occasional slip, than to have it ignored outright for fear of doing something wrong and upsetting me. It seems more offensive to deliberately not include something than it would be to accidentally slip up in its presentation every now and then. I imagine things would be similar for trans characters. Avoiding the topic altogether to avoid the possibility of offending anyone seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

As for how to do it, it seems to me that all that'd be necessary would be to have a character mention that they're taking hormones (or the setting-appropriate equivalent), or using magic to assert their identity. It doesn't need to be invasive, it could be a single offhand line of dialogue and never be touched on again. Treat it like any other kind of medication.

Of course, whether or not Rich wants to do it is totally up to him. Perhaps there's just never a good time. That happens. But if he can think of a good way to include it, I don't think the fear of offending people ought to be the reason stopping him.

Kish

2018-10-17, 10:19 AM

From what I remember Dumbledore had a rather strong liking for flower patterns.

On a more serious note I always though what we learned of Dumbledore's relation with Grindelwald alluded to it. The only reason Grindelwald became as big a threat as he did was because Dumbledore couldn't bring himself to stop his old friend, which quickly bleeds over into him being unable to treat the man he loved as an enemy until he didn't have a choice any longer.

And I hear people saying that it should have been pointed to more emphatically but that sounds like treating it as more special than it is when ideally we'd treat homosexuality as being as mundane as heterosexuality.
I think "this character, who was not asexual or aromantic, had one relationship in his youth and lived for a hundred more years without ever having another one" already stands out pretty sharply.

Hardcore

2018-10-17, 10:25 AM

First, and I don't mean for this to come off as agressive, but your potential confusion is acceptable here. This was always going to be a niche joke. If you didn't follow discussions about sexism in ttrpg art you would have no idea what was being made fun of. That's okay. Niche jokes are okay, and I've been confused by jokes before. There was a "Lost" reference and a Greek myth Cyclops thing nearly back to back, and I got neither. Until I read, like, the third post in that pages discussion thread. So, not really a big deal.

I chose salespeople as a neutral example, because you're right. The mind immediately goes to the question of what the new breasts has to do with the job. That actually makes the intended joke better, by the way. Boobies aren't really a sensible purchase if your career is fighting dragons in dungeons. If the dragonborn gain economic advantage from their surgery it undercuts the joke.

Sex work has to do with it because of this:

There was a time, probably about thirty-thirty five years ago when the only trans characters in media were: sex workers, murder victims, or murdered sex workers. The motive for the murders was always 'straight man hooks up with MtF women, finds out she still has some boy parts, is disgusted, and kills her.'

So you can hopefully see how that one panel lines up with that narrative unpleasantly.

And by the way, the media at that time was doing it that way for a reason. Trans folks were often effectively unemployable, and were victims of violence at much higher rates than cis folks. Things have gotten better, but they're not fixed yet.

So, you know, that's Where the opinion comes from.

Thanks!
Yeah, I cannot remember any specific instance of that, but media rarely portray the powerful as victims.

Anymage

2018-10-17, 11:26 AM

And I hear people saying that it should have been pointed to more emphatically but that sounds like treating it as more special than it is when ideally we'd treat homosexuality as being as mundane as heterosexuality.

Some people are practically asexual, especially when you only see them in a particular role. Minerva McGonagall being an example where you have to read Pottermore to know that she's not completely ace. (She was briefly engaged to a man before deciding to throw herself entirely into government service.)

It's just that when Dumbledore is the only non-straight character in canon (two if you count Grindelwald, who also doesn't express it and would be more troublesome if he did), not showing a trait is effectively the same as not having it at all.

Personally, when it comes to gay characters, I would much rather see intelligent representation as written by a clever, funny writer, and accept the occasional slip, than to have it ignored outright for fear of doing something wrong and upsetting me. It seems more offensive to deliberately not include something than it would be to accidentally slip up in its presentation every now and then. I imagine things would be similar for trans characters. Avoiding the topic altogether to avoid the possibility of offending anyone seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

As for how to do it, it seems to me that all that'd be necessary would be to have a character mention that they're taking hormones (or the setting-appropriate equivalent), or using magic to assert their identity. It doesn't need to be invasive, it could be a single offhand line of dialogue and never be touched on again. Treat it like any other kind of medication.

Of course, whether or not Rich wants to do it is totally up to him. Perhaps there's just never a good time. That happens. But if he can think of a good way to include it, I don't think the fear of offending people ought to be the reason stopping him.

Bandanna was able to mention her sexuality with one throwaway line, that happened to be topically relevant. People's current partners tend to be topical, and recent exes can be mentioned without too much of a stretch.

"Hey, let me tell you about this magical procedure I had done years back" is hard to bring up without it being super forced. I could maybe see someone wanting to put off a Remove Curse being similarly subtle, as they really don't want to lose the "curse" that came with their belt. Bringing up potential interactions with the doctorcleric treating you is relevant. It's just that with all the plot happening to OotS at the moment, having to find a reason why the party would decurse a bunch of people (and blow the spell slots to do so) sounds like it would require going far out of their way.

Also, since this is a comic, having a line like that would be very tricky to pull off without everybody who doesn't read this thread wondering whether it was part of a joke or a setup to some greater plot. Too many things about being a self aware fantasy stick figure comic work together to make this really hard to pull off without being heavy handed about it.

hamishspence

2018-10-17, 11:36 AM

Some people are practically asexual, especially when you only see them in a particular role. Minerva McGonagall being an example where you have to read Pottermore to know that she's not completely ace. (She was briefly engaged to a man before deciding to throw herself entirely into government service.)

She was also married to a wizard called Elphinstone Urquart for 3 years - but again, you need Pottermore or a wiki, to know this.

Ruck

2018-10-17, 01:07 PM

Still, just like gender assignment, Redcloak's niece wants to look like a "lady," it's his choice to wear "female clothes" and not to change his biological sex. In that scenario I was trying to make a point about the differences between gender identity, biological sex and gender expression.
That's not the scenario in play here. "Redcloak's niece" was obviously AFAB, hence why the character appeared as Redcloak's niece in Start of Darkness. Therefore, to be a trans character, Redcloak's niece would have had to transition to (and likely present as) male. And therefore, to introduce him with people calling him a lady is to mock his transition for the sake of a cheap joke.

And, whether or not you want to hear it, I'll back Larrx that that reducing trans people's existence to being "based on misgendering" is gross, and reductive stereotypes don't become acceptable when they're euphemized as "thinking differently."

The Dumbldore Option has always struck me as a dodge. A head fake toward inclusion without having to actually include. I wish we could get the real thing, but absent that I'd rather have silence than 'no, we love you and you were in there, you just need to read the wiki to find yourself.'

My own personal rant is that for all her talk about inclusion, not only did she not actually include a gay character in the text, she not only included a race of hook-nosed greedy bankers (and all the implications thereof), but in her newest works, she... still is writing about straight cis white people.

(Then again, I think she's kind of a crappy person. OK, rant over.)

Peelee

2018-10-17, 01:23 PM

(Then again, I think she's kind of a crappy person. OK, rant over.)

This intrigues me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

Ruck

2018-10-17, 01:37 PM

This intrigues me, and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I think elaborating here would definitely violate the forum's politics rules, but I'm sure there's another medium I can elaborate on, once I've put together my case and such.

Liquor Box

2018-10-17, 03:19 PM

Bandanna was able to mention her sexuality with one throwaway line, that happened to be topically relevant. People's current partners tend to be topical, and recent exes can be mentioned without too much of a stretch.

I agree. I though Bandana was a great way to introduce lesbian representation without it seeming forced. A character who was relevant and interesting for other reasons, turned out to be lesbian. Her lesbianism was revealed in a way that felt totally natural - mentioning an ex-girlfriend was totally relevant to explaining why she had some clothes that were too large for her.

A contrast from OotS is the Frost Giant who the Order fought on the Mechane. It was about feminism, not representation, but the way it was introduced felt far less natural (to me at least). It struck me as forced that during a conflict where she was fighting on behalf of her tribe she aired a social gripe she had with the internal politics of her tribe.

If a trans character were to be introduced (which they will not be, based on this thread), one might hope the introduction is more like Bandana and less like the female frost giant. So not "hey, I just met you, by the way I'm trans".

Caerulea

2018-10-17, 03:31 PM

I agree. I though Bandana was a great way to introduce lesbian representation without it seeming forced. A character who was relevant and interesting for other reasons, turned out to be lesbian. Her lesbianism was revealed in a way that felt totally natural—mentioning an ex-girlfriend—was totally relevant to explaining why she had some clothes that were too large for her.

I concur. I did not actually realise that Bandana was gay at until I saw it on the forums. The way it was done made it seem like a normal thing, which I took little notice of. What Anymage and others were getting at was that there isn't an easy analogue to "mentioning a past romantic partner" for transgender people. I suppose making a character appear one sex and use different pronouns might work, though I am not sure how that would be received. There would also be the issue of why, when magic is available, they haven't pursued some sort of magical solution.

Aveline

2018-10-17, 03:41 PM

Which is exactly what makes them a trans. :smallconfused:

I'm just chiming in as a transgender person to say, good gods, no. hroþila put it best: "You're trans even if no one ever misgenders you, and it is extremely impolite to misgender a trans person." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23442634&postcount=211)

And I would also like to specifically agree that synonymizing "being transgender" and "getting misgendered" is gross.

I don't think you want to introduce a transgender character with an immediate implication that they can't pass for their chosen gender.

It still feels like your scene is playing the confusion for a cheap joke, which is exactly how I think it should not be done.

Yeah, that's a huge peeve of mine too.

Liquor Box

2018-10-17, 03:54 PM

I concur. I did not actually realise that Bandana was gay at until I saw it on the forums. The way it was done made it seem like a normal thing, which I took little notice of. What Anymage and others were getting at was that there isn't an easy analogue to "mentioning a past romantic partner" for transgender people. I suppose making a character appear one sex and use different pronouns might work, though I am not sure how that would be received. There would also be the issue of why, when magic is available, they haven't pursued some sort of magical solution.

Yeah, I'm not sure that Anymage is right about that. It may be more difficult, but I think it would be possible for a skilled writer. I mean people do reveal that they are trans in real life, so there must be a natural (by which I mean realistic seeming) way of doing it. Even Martian Mister's way of having to seek a character of one gender, only to find them presenting as (and having the appearance of) the other gender might work.

Resileaf

2018-10-17, 03:54 PM

I agree. I though Bandana was a great way to introduce lesbian representation without it seeming forced. A character who was relevant and interesting for other reasons, turned out to be lesbian. Her lesbianism was revealed in a way that felt totally natural - mentioning an ex-girlfriend was totally relevant to explaining why she had some clothes that were too large for her.

She's not the only openly gay character either. While Elan is in prison one of the guards (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) off-handedly mentions that he came out as gay at 17 with just mild curiosity from his friend. No judging, just a "Oh, neat".
Dunno if that counts as representation from a minor, 1-page character though.

Potatopeelerkin

2018-10-17, 04:03 PM

Also, since this is a comic, having a line like that would be very tricky to pull off without everybody who doesn't read this thread wondering whether it was part of a joke or a setup to some greater plot. Too many things about being a self aware fantasy stick figure comic work together to make this really hard to pull off without being heavy handed about it.

It's possible an opportunity will never come up, and in my book that's a pretty good reason not to do it. My main point is that if a way to do it does come up, the thing preventing Rich from doing it should not be fear of offending people.

hamishspence

2018-10-17, 04:22 PM

if a way to do it does come up, the thing preventing Rich from doing it should not be fear of offending people.

It's the "causing personal pain" thing that The Giant has said he wants to avoid:

If I don't know what I'm doing, and what I'm doing causes pain over and over, I need to not do it anymore. So I'm going to keep with my previous stance on this issue: I would rather people be mad at me for not including representation of a group than hurt because I did.

In the fifteen years I've been drawing OOTS, transgender-ism is the sole topic that has seen multiple people telling me my work caused them personal pain on separate occasions over separate jokes. There is plenty of empirical evidence that I have a particular blind spot on this topic, and that said blind spot is particularly harmful.

Literally no one has ever told me that my handling of Bandana's sexuality or Vaarsuvius' gender or Roy's race or Haley's penchant for unfortunate language or any of a hundred things swirling around Miko has hurt them on a personal level. They'll complain about it, they'll stomp their feet and write huge multi-quote debate threads, they'll tell me in their best concern troll voice that they're worried that other people might be upset, but they won't tell me they, themselves, were injured. There's a qualitative difference when it comes to how people respond to this one issue, and thus I am choosing to treat it uniquely. Until I see evidence that another topic has the same effect, there is no reason to think that this course of action will be extended to additional subject matter.

What some people are basically arguing is that I should be willing to roll the dice on a given topic and risk hurting people to tell a joke. What I am saying is, I already have done so and they came up snake eyes three times in a row. I'm not rolling these particular dice anymore.

King of Nowhere

2018-10-17, 05:37 PM

I don't think roy's incident with the belt of gender change can count as representing a trans person. It's a completey different case.

Sure, roy ends up in a body of the opposite gender he identifies with, which is more or less the definition of a trans person. But roy has been an heterosexual male for all his life, then magic turned him to a woman for a few hours. that's a very different situation over somebody who was born with a female body but slowly realizes s/he has the mind and orientation of a man.

That said, I believe the best way to use those characters in stories is to make them normal character and not explore their sexuality. I'm going to quote Brandon Sanderson here because I fully align on his idea

In a way, I think that making a big deal of [non-standard sexual identity] could be more harmful. One of the reasons I put LGBT characters in my books is because they are a part of our world, and deserve representation in fiction. It’s strange to think that in our world, LGBT people make up a significant minority of the population, yet in fiction (particularly fantasy fiction) they tend to either vanish completely or the story has to be all about who they are and their sexuality.

This strikes me as a bad way to do things. Just like not every book including women characters should be about feminism, not every book including LGBT characters should be about sexual orientation or gender identity issues. If they are, then that just highlights the supposition that they’re out of the ordinary

Fish

2018-10-17, 05:55 PM

Re: D&D curses. I always figured this mechanic was meant to replicate the addictive quality of the One Ring from LOTR. The Ring had a benefit (invisibility) tied to a detriment (loss of willpower, immediate detection by the Dark Lord) and an addictive property that caused its wielder to be helplessly enthralled by it. In game terms, this became "must use it at all times." Otherwise, gamers being the kind of loophole-seeking people that we are, we'd just use it when it was necessary and ignore the rest.

Oh, they can do better than that. Strike. Strike until trans authors are the only ones left to publish, and publishers will be forced to take up their stories in order to sell anything.
This is not viable given the current market forces found in the publishing world.

1. Most manuscripts written today do not get published. Even if 90% of all cis authors stopped writing there would still be vast quantities of materials in editorial slush piles, with more submitted daily by the remaining 10%.
2. There's no requirement that trans authors write about trans characters; therefore, not all books under the new paradigm would educate people about trans issues. This is separate from the issue of whether it is reasonable to forbid cis authors from including non-cis characters, but to simultaneously assume every author has equal facility to write cis characters. Hell, an embarrassing number of authors can't even handle characters of other races, cultures, orientations, careers, ages, or of the opposite sex with any facility, so it seems like a really arbitrary and unfair place to draw the line.
3. There's no requirement that readers read books about characters they don't identify with. Changing the reading habits of 95% of the population, and the writing habits of most authors, is an uphill battle. For example: if fewer cis authors are submitting manuscripts, and readers want stories by cis authors, such stories become more valuable, and there is less incentive to not write.

I suggest you look at the Manuscript Wish List website. There you will find any number of literary agents and editors who are specifically looking for LGBTQ authors and who are unafraid to say so. You will also find that there are sensitivity readers in the publishing world who specifically look for inclusion issues that can derail the success and sale of a novel. The best way to create a world where LGBTQ issues are handled gracefully is to make sure that the bad representations don't succeed. We are moving ever closer in that direction, but it takes time. The more exposure LGBTQ characters get, the easier the general public will be able to tell a good representation from a bad one, and the better the good stories will do.

Anymage

2018-10-17, 06:05 PM

Yeah, I'm not sure that Anymage is right about that. It may be more difficult, but I think it would be possible for a skilled writer. I mean people do reveal that they are trans in real life, so there must be a natural (by which I mean realistic seeming) way of doing it. Even Martian Mister's way of having to seek a character of one gender, only to find them presenting as (and having the appearance of) the other gender might work.

In the real world, the main reason a trans person might disclose their status to someone they don't know very well is to highlight how their experiences might change a situation.

In the comic world, where it's (presumably) a quick magical procedure and most people would just roll with it after a minor adjustment period (closer to parents accidentally using a childhood nickname than someone using the old name to deny the new identity), how would it matter enough to be worth mentioning to some random adventurers? The Redcloak's niecenephew option may work, except that the reveal would lack any real narrative or comedic punch. Trans people have been the butt of jokes long enough that you want to be excessively careful using them as a punchline.

It's possible an opportunity will never come up, and in my book that's a pretty good reason not to do it. My main point is that if a way to do it does come up, the thing preventing Rich from doing it should not be fear of offending people.

Dragonboobs wasn't intended to be anywhere near a trans joke. It was a mention of a D&D microdrama (that was really about detractors looking for anything that they could find in 4e to criticize), that happened to brush up against the "chicks with ****s" trope.

We can talk about how to do it right, both in general and in this particular comic. (Although in the particular case of OotS, I can't think of good reasons why they wouldn't look and act indistinguishably from cis characters.) I think Rich has it right, though, being excessively cautious putting one anywhere near a punchline. And as alluded to with dragonboobs, giving it a second thought if a punchline even winds up in their general area.

martianmister

2018-10-17, 06:06 PM

That's not the scenario in play here. "Redcloak's niece" was obviously AFAB, hence why the character appeared as Redcloak's niece in Start of Darkness. Therefore, to be a trans character, Redcloak's niece would have had to transition to (and likely present as) male. And therefore, to introduce him with people calling him a lady is to mock his transition for the sake of a cheap joke.

1. As I said before, not all transgenders are actively pursuing transition. That's the point of their calling him a lady. What makes a person trans is their self-image, not how they look to other people. It's not a cheap joke.

2. One of the most important causes of diversity is giving marginalized people characters they can relate, characters that have real life problems. Misgendering is a problem trangender persons constantly face.

Transgender people are more than one thing.

Why are you putting words in my mouth?

I'm just chiming in as a transgender person to say, good gods, no. hroþila put it best: "You're trans even if no one ever misgenders you, and it is extremely impolite to misgender a trans person." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23442634&postcount=211)

And I would also like to specifically agree that synonymizing "being transgender" and "getting misgendered" is gross.

And, whether or not you want to hear it, I'll back Larrx that that reducing trans people's existence to being "based on misgendering" is gross, and reductive stereotypes don't become acceptable when they're euphemized as "thinking differently."

When you born you're given a gender based on your biological sex. If that gender is compatible with your real gender, that makes you a cis person. If that gender is incompatible with your real gender, that's a case of misgendering, and makes you a trans person. I'm not sure what is so hard to understand that.