Ritual to Create a Nightmare from a Pegasus?

[Damon_Tor]

I have a conquest Paladin looking to turn turn his pegasus (created via Find Greater Steed) into a nightmare. The monster manual notes that this is possible via ritual, but it doesn't say what the ritual entails other than it involves removing their wings painfully. Did they ever publish details of the ritual in another edition? Are there material components consumed by the ritual?

The paladin in question considers himself Lawful Neutral, I'm not sure what kind of strain this would put on his alignment. I'd have to see the ritual to come to a conclusion about that. On the one hand, he's making a chaotic creature neutral, but he's also turning a good creature evil. Kind of a wash for a character who values the law (his law) above all else.

[Quietus]

Well, the Nightmare is a Fiend. And if the ritual involves removing the pegasus' wings, I would say something involving pulling fiendish power and infusing the pegasus with it, which burns away the creatures' wings, and leaves it wracked with pain as it will be aflame for the remainder of its life.

Yes, this is an Evil act, and will absolutely turn his alignment Evil. I would let the player know this ahead of time - there is no way around becoming Evil, if he wants to turn a Good creature into a fiend.

[No brains]

I think the nature of the ritual is up to the DM. Since a nightmare is NE, maybe the Paladin can learn the ritual if they speak to an Arcanaloth.

Now I am not 100% on this instantly turning the paladin evil. There's still room for the paladin to stick to their desired LN. Although talking to a fiend about turning a celestial into another fiend through pain is something I am 90% sure will eventually turn the paladin evil.

[Millstone85]

Now I am not 100% on this instantly turning the paladin evil. There's still room for the paladin to stick to their desired LN. Although talking to a fiend about turning a celestial into another fiend through pain is something I am 90% sure will eventually turn the paladin evil.I am 100% on the instantly.

[Temotei]

The paladin is, against another intelligent creature's will, performing a painful ritual on said creature that involves permanently changing it into something else entirely. That would drop anyone to evil instantly in my book.

[Damon_Tor]

The paladin is, against another intelligent creature's will, performing a painful ritual on said creature that involves permanently changing it into something else entirely. That would drop anyone to evil instantly in my book.

And what if the pegasus to willingly submits to the ritual? It's already begun to see the world from the Paladin's perspective, and resents its own chaotic nature. There's a strong loyalty there. By fluff, this is the same being that acted as his warhorse when summoned by Find Steed years ago. The creature wants to please the paladin, to become what he needs it become. It's ridden through fire for him, it's died for him.

[1Pirate]

I have a conquest Paladin looking to turn turn his pegasus (created via Find Greater Steed) into a nightmare.

This requires a house rule from you as it's not a real pegasus. A creature from the Find Steed spells have the statistics of the chosen form, but they are generic fey/fiend/celestial creatures. If you're okay with him having a nightmare, he can just complete some ritual of your choosing that allows him to summon the Steed as a nightmare.

[Millstone85]

And what if the pegasus to willingly submits to the ritual? It's already begun to see the world from the Paladin's perspective, and resents its own chaotic nature.Then I believe the pegasus can just shift alignment on its own, without ritual. No need to go from good to evil either, just from chaotic to neutral or lawful.

Maybe have it seek an unicorn to teach it how to be a lawful good celestial horse.

[Erys]

This requires a house rule from you as it's not a real pegasus. A creature from the Find Steed spells have the statistics of the chosen form, but they are generic fey/fiend/celestial creatures. If you're okay with him having a nightmare, he can just complete some ritual of your choosing that allows him to summon the Steed as a nightmare.

+1 to just tweaking Find Greater Steed to include a Nightmare over him actually casting the super evil spell that generally does it by force.

The best course of action when dealing with alignments, is the one that doesn't deal in alignments at all. :smallbiggrin:

[Unoriginal]

I have a conquest Paladin looking to turn turn his pegasus (created via Find Greater Steed) into a nightmare.


Find Greater Steed doesn't actually summon a pegasus, just a spirit which takes a pegasus form. It does not qualify to turn into a Nightmare.



The monster manual notes that this is possible via ritual, but it doesn't say what the ritual entails other than it involves removing their wings painfully. Did they ever publish details of the ritual in another edition? Are there material components consumed by the ritual?

No, this is one of those "horrifying things are done to a creature, so we're not putting it in the books" things.



The paladin in question considers himself Lawful Neutral, I'm not sure what kind of strain this would put on his alignment. I'd have to see the ritual to come to a conclusion about that. On the one hand, he's making a chaotic creature neutral, but he's also turning a good creature evil. Kind of a wash for a character who values the law (his law) above all else.

it doesn't matter what your character see himself as, anyone performing that kind of ritual is 100% evil.



Now I am not 100% on this instantly turning the paladin evil. There's still room for the paladin to stick to their desired LN. Although talking to a fiend about turning a celestial into another fiend through pain is something I am 90% sure will eventually turn the paladin evil.

Anyone who does that is of an evil alignment. There is no room to stick to lawful neutral.


And what if the pegasus to willingly submits to the ritual?

It's like asking "and what if my girlfriend willingly accept to be captured by Jigsaw instead of me?"



It's already begun to see the world from the Paladin's perspective, and resents its own chaotic nature. There's a strong loyalty there.

Even Celestials can change alignments if they want to. They'll just stop being the Celestial of the given type.

But once again, it's not a real Pegasus.



By fluff, this is the same being that acted as his warhorse when summoned by Find Steed years ago. The creature wants to please the paladin, to become what he needs it become. It's ridden through fire for him, it's died for him.

Even ignoring the fact it didn't really die, just got de-summoned for a while, and ignoring the even more important fact the mount doesn't qualify for the ritual because it's not a real Pegasus, if it became a Nightmare it would hate you forever and betray you at the first occasion.

Nightmares are neither loyal nor caring about their riders.

[Mellack]

As others have said, your question is moot as it is not a pegasus. It is a spirit, possibly already a fiend. It is just taking the shape temporarily of a pegasus. The easiest way to your goal would be to work with your DM to determine what sort of ritual or component you need to add nightmare to the list of forms that your summoned spirit can take. This also avoids the possible alignment troubles of committing an evil act.

[No brains]

It largely rests on setting-dependent definitions of celestials, fiends, evil, and reality. I'd say it's evil to abuse a horsey, but reshaping god-snot from heaven molded in shape of a horse might not have the same impact as wounding a pile of protein and ATP that's animated by chemical signals. Not all settings give magical beings and mortals the same value of life and importance in determining what is 'good'.

IRL, be good to horses.

[Mith]

Perhaps I am just daft, but is there a reason that they make Steeds, Familiars, and I believe Companions all generic Celestial, Fey, or Fiend vs. being the actual creature in question?

[Mellack]

Perhaps I am just daft, but is there a reason that they make Steeds, Familiars, and I believe Companions all generic Celestial, Fey, or Fiend vs. being the actual creature in question?

Probably because it makes more sense for the summoning and dismissing as well as letting it avoid permanent death easily. Since it is just a spirit, you don't have to find a new actual creature when your old one gets bit by the dragon.

[Mith]

In that case, I would make it a free willed creature that chooses their summoner. So if the Paladin choses to embrace the use of fiends of as part of their goals, then the summons would change into a nightmare, or will reject them and with a Nightmare answering the summons instead.

[Temperjoke]

Oh, so this is the way we're approaching alignment arguments now? I thought it had been too long since there was one.

Anyways, torturing and mutilating a creature ritually would be an Evil act. Creatures summoned via the Find Steed, Find Familiar, etc., are spirits that take the particular form because it sidesteps issues such as death, and sentience (like with chain warlock pets, who does that Imp really work for?).

DMs are free to house rule them as they want, but it creates more problems if they do.

[Mith]

Oh, so this is the way we're approaching alignment arguments now? I thought it had been too long since there was one.

Anyways, torturing and mutilating a creature ritually would be an Evil act. Creatures summoned via the Find Steed, Find Familiar, etc., are spirits that take the particular form because it sidesteps issues such as death, and sentience (like with chain warlock pets, who does that Imp really work for?).

DMs are free to house rule them as they want, but it creates more problems if they do.

The way I would do summons as a "generic" summons, is you send a general plea, and a spirit that thinks you are interesting shows up. If they don't like what happens to them, when they are dismissed, a different spirit shows up to your next summoning.

So with this question, I would say that either the Paladin will lose a steed and gain a different one, the steed will shift in aspect to a different sort of creature (a willing Nightmare), or your LN paladin will torture a loyal mount to get the results they want, and be dlapped with a LE discriptor and a line of credit with Baator. Pagasi are difficult to catch after all. And the Nightmare will only follow the letter of the orders given.

[Vorpalchicken]

A cautionary tale from another thread.

Bard: "and then I step on its neck and slice off the other wing with my ritual dagger. It screams in horror as I pour vile burning liquid over its stupid horse face."

DM: "Awesome!"

Girl: "Uh. I don't want to play with you guys any more."

Bard: "Grow Up! This is only make believe sadistic animal abuse."

DM: "No! Don't leave. I'm only doing this for the chicks!"

Girl: "Come on, Donny. Let's get out of here and I'll let you explore my dungeon! "

Donny: "I'll ready my falchion."

[Millstone85]

Perhaps I am just daft, but is there a reason that they make Steeds, Familiars, and I believe Companions all generic Celestial, Fey, or Fiend vs. being the actual creature in question?A ranger's companion is the real deal. In fact, it is not even summoned. If you need a new one, you have to find the beast.

[hymer]

A ranger's companion is the real deal. In fact, it is not even summoned. If you need a new one, you have to find the beast.
"You! You come over here! Your name is now Meat Shield #4."

[Damon_Tor]

So I guess I'll spare the paladin from making that choice. I'll set up a battle with a fire-spouting fiend of some sort and find a way to separate the horse and rider before subjecting the pegasus to a fire spell that burns it badly and reduces it to 0 hitpoints. When it gets resummoned it will form as a nightmare.

Thanks for the input everyone!

[MaxWilson]

I am 100% on the instantly.

Me too. Torturing a friend = evil.

[hamishspence]

Anyone who does that is of an evil alignment. There is no room to stick to lawful neutral.

Just as evil people can do selfless, good acts, and not instantly turn Good:


Neutral evil characters can do good things, selfless things. So can lawful or chaotic evil ones.

5e alignment is a description of your *typical* behavior, not a 100% all the time thing.

maybe a Good or Neutral person can do a selfish, harmful act, and not instantly turn Evil?

That said (at least in previous editions), torture (or any kind of "causing unnecessary and excessive suffering) is Evil, and creating fiends is Evil, and "betraying a friend" (assuming that is, that it qualifies as a betrayal regardless of the friend's views) is Evil.

So this act is evil on many levels, not just one - which may make it "bigger" and more capable of causing Instant Alignment Change.

[MaxWilson]

That said (at least in previous editions), torture (or any kind of "causing unnecessary and excessive suffering) is Evil, and creating fiends is Evil, and "betraying a friend" (assuming that is, that it qualifies as a betrayal regardless of the friend's views) is Evil.

So this act is evil on many levels, not just one - which may make it "bigger" and more capable of causing Instant Alignment Change.

Precisely. It wouldn't necessarily have to affect your behavior--you can continue doing benevolent things if you want to, and maybe over time you can gradually recover your original alignment--but torturing a friend would leave a stain on your metaphysical soul, IMG, which would be detectable via alignment-oriented spells.

Alignment doesn't do much, but it is detectable, and it would be detected. And if you had a Robe of the Neutral Archmagi I would tell you that the robe stopped working after you hypothethically tortured your Pegasus into Nightmaredom. (Ideally I would also warn you beforehand that this would happen.)

[hamishspence]

Precisely. It wouldn't necessarily have to affect your behavior--you can continue doing benevolent things if you want to, and maybe over time you can gradually recover your original alignment--but torturing a friend would leave a stain on your metaphysical soul, IMG, which would be detectable via alignment-oriented spells.

The 3e (FC2) approach would be "You have acquired Corruption Points. These are not detectable, but whether or not you change alignment, you will retain those Corruption Points until you atone".

[Unoriginal]

Just as evil people can do selfless, good acts, and not instantly turn Good:



maybe a Good or Neutral person can do a selfish, harmful act, and not instantly turn Evil?

That said (at least in previous editions), torture (or any kind of "causing unnecessary and excessive suffering) is Evil, and creating fiends is Evil, and "betraying a friend" (assuming that is, that it qualifies as a betrayal regardless of the friend's views) is Evil.

So this act is evil on many levels, not just one - which may make it "bigger" and more capable of causing Instant Alignment Change.

One bad act may not make you evil, but putting an innocent through a Saw-level horrific ritual requires planning and deliberate efforts, which means that at the point the ritual has ends being this much of a malevolent donkey hole has become your "typical" behavior.

It's not a noble paladin striking down the mob leader after their surrender because they kept boasting about how they'll never be punished for all the lives they've ruined thanks to having the judges in their pocket. It's not a bard whose plan kills both the dictator and his innocent son because the bard didn't see a way to free the country otherwise.

It's someone deciding "for the next days/weeks I'm going to do everything I can to chain up a benevolent entity, horribly maim them, erase their personality, making sure they can never go back to their homeland and their loved ones, then condemn them to an eternity of damnation in the worst planes."

Can you find redemption after that? 5e implies you can, given Dorestain's story.

But those who do it are generally not the kind to do the effort to attone.

[hamishspence]

"Taking a celestial's wings off" is something that, in some D&D - the Forces of Good do - when exiling that Celestial from the Upper Planes, and making them into a former Celestial (Eberron's Radiant Idols, are fallen angels created from regular angels this way).

So, in that sense, it's surprising how ruthless the "Good guys" can be. And the "Neutral guys" can be worse.

In practice though, I'd agree that doing this sort of thing to a pegasus, permission or no permission, is enough that instant alignment change from Neutral to Evil shouldn't be considered unfair or excessive.