...Spells you know

[barna10]

This is a RAW vs RAI question (sorry rusty here)...

Each spontaneous caster description I've looked at uses very similar text

"...You can cast any spell you know without preparing it ahead of time..."

RAI: "You can cast any [this class] spell you know..."
RAW: "You can cast ANY spell you know..."

RAW this could be interpreted to allow, say a Sorcerer, to take a single level of Wizard and learn an unlimited number spells, then cast them with Sorcerer spell slots.

This is similar to the Magical Training / Versatile Spellcaster cheese, I know, but has there been clarity given to this?

[rs2excelsior]

Except a wizard doesn't have spells known, they have prepared spells. I don't know of any GM who would let this fly at a table--you could maybe make an argument that spell slots from one spontaneous casting class could be used to cast spells known from a different spontaneous casting class, but even that feels incredibly cheesy.

[heavyfuel]

Except a wizard doesn't have spells known

Except that they totally do.


A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Every spellcasting class's spellcasting class feature is within the context of that one class. So anything about what that spellcasting class feature says, unless explicitly stated otherwise, only applies to that one class's spells.

[barna10]

Every spellcasting class's spellcasting class feature is within the context of that one class. So anything about what that spellcasting class feature says, unless explicitly stated otherwise, only applies to that one class's spells.

I see this falling into RAI when the class description uses words like "any" instead of "any spells gained from this class" or something like that.

Again, this is the same line of thinking as the magical training + versatile spellcaster/arcane preparation trick.

I think I would allow this with a feat tax applied. Sword of the arcane order sets a precedent of a feat with virtually no prerequisites allowing you access to another class's spell list. If a spontaneous caster takes arcane preparation I'd allow prepping wizard spells in spontaneous slots, OR I wouldn't allow sotao. Allowing one and not the other seems inconsistent.

[umbergod]

I think I would allow this with a feat tax applied. Sword of the arcane order sets a precedent of a feat with virtually no prerequisites allowing you access to another class's spell list. If a spontaneous caster takes arcane preparation I'd allow prepping wizard spells in spontaneous slots, OR I wouldn't allow sotao. Allowing one and not the other seems inconsistent.

Sotao requires you to be either a paladin or ranger to use it, gaining access to up to 4th lvl wizard spells isnt gonna do a whole lot for ya, since you already have the power tax of being either a paladin or a ranger, instead of a wizard

[heavyfuel]

Sotao requires you to be either a paladin or ranger to use it, gaining access to up to 4th lvl wizard spells isnt gonna do a whole lot for ya, since you already have the power tax of being either a paladin or a ranger, instead of a wizard

Plus, these classes usually wear armor, which doesn't really agree with arcane spells.

[Quertus]

Every spellcasting class's spellcasting class feature is within the context of that one class. So anything about what that spellcasting class feature says, unless explicitly stated otherwise, only applies to that one class's spells.

Obviously Rules as Intended, but is there anything you can cite to make this RAW?

[Saintheart]

I see this falling into RAI when the class description uses words like "any" instead of "any spells gained from this class" or something like that.

Again, this is the same line of thinking as the magical training + versatile spellcaster/arcane preparation trick.

I think I would allow this with a feat tax applied. Sword of the arcane order sets a precedent of a feat with virtually no prerequisites allowing you access to another class's spell list. If a spontaneous caster takes arcane preparation I'd allow prepping wizard spells in spontaneous slots, OR I wouldn't allow sotao. Allowing one and not the other seems inconsistent.


Sotao requires you to be either a paladin or ranger to use it, gaining access to up to 4th lvl wizard spells isnt gonna do a whole lot for ya, since you already have the power tax of being either a paladin or a ranger, instead of a wizard

(1) Sword of the Arcane Order doesn't allow you access to another class's spell list. It only allows you to prepare arcane spells in your ranger slots. The spells have to come from your own spellbook (if you have one) or from a borrowed spellbook. That in turn means you have to at least take Magical Training as a feat in order to have your own spellbook, and even then the strict RAW of the feat doesn't allow you to transcribe spells from other spellbooks to your own.

(2) Mystic Ranger allows 5th level spells FWIW.

[heavyfuel]

(1) [...] That in turn means you have to at least take Magical Training as a feat in order to have your own spellbook, and even then the strict RAW of the feat doesn't allow you to transcribe spells from other spellbooks to your own.

(2) Mystic Ranger allows 5th level spells FWIW.

(1) You could take a level in Wizard to get a spellbook as well. I think this was actually intended with the whole "add your wizard and ranger/paladin levels to wizard spells you cast".

(2) How exactly are you getting Sword of the Arcane Order on a Mystic Ranger?

[Saintheart]

(1) You could take a level in Wizard to get a spellbook as well. I think this was actually intended with the whole "add your wizard and ranger/paladin levels to wizard spells you cast".

(2) How exactly are you getting Sword of the Arcane Order on a Mystic Ranger?

(1) Most likely yes.

(2) Going with the (likely-DM-dependent) idea that Sword of the Arcane Order only requires that you be "ranger 4th of Mystra". A Mystic Ranger is still a ranger. And unlike other Dragon Magazine variants that do explicitly rule out going into the base class after you've been into the variant (Fighter and Targeteer, for example), there isn't anything I remember in Mystic Ranger that says it can't qualify as a ranger for other ranger-specific stuff.

[heavyfuel]

(2) Going with the (likely-DM-dependent) idea that Sword of the Arcane Order only requires that you be "ranger 4th of Mystra".

AFAIK, "Ranger of Mystra" isn't defined in the rules, though they heavily imply you have to be take the Shooting Star Substituion Levels. At best this is entirely up to the DM, at worse you can't take these levels either because you don't have the stuff Rangers trade away (Animal Companion, for one), or because a "Mystic Ranger" isn't a "Ranger" in the first place.

I could see super lenient DMs allowing it, but it's hardly a given or RAW.

[Saintheart]

AFAIK, "Ranger of Mystra" isn't defined in the rules, though they heavily imply you have to be take the Shooting Star Substituion Levels. At best this is entirely up to the DM, at worse you can't take these levels either because you don't have the stuff Rangers trade away (Animal Companion, for one), or because a "Mystic Ranger" isn't a "Ranger" in the first place.

I could see super lenient DMs allowing it, but it's hardly a given or RAW.

The only footnote I'd add is that the FRCS setting more or less compels everyone to take a patron god, and it's that compulsion that the prerequisite is addressed to. Indeed, to take a Shooting Star Substitution level at all your patron deity has to be Mystra. If they'd wanted to force you to have taken the Shooting Star substitution levels the prerequisites would have said so, it's even in the same book. All that's required is membership in the Order of the Shooting Star at best, not the substitution level. Indeed I can't think of many feats across the entire system that require someone to have taken a particular substitution level as a direct qualification for the feat.

EDIT: Although I don't think there's much in the argument that just because you trade a ranger's class features away that they stop being a ranger. I notice that the Shooting Star Substitution Levels actually trade away the ranger's Endurance, Animal Companion, and Swift Tracker abilities. Does that mean a Shooting Star ranger no longer qualifies for Sword of the Arcane Order -- because he doesn't have all the bog-standard ranger class features anymore?

[Florian]

Except that they totally do.

"Spells known" is a technical term in D&D, while "knowing a spell" is not, especially when the phrase itself describes how a spell book works, not how "spells known" work.

[Silly Name]

Keep in mind that the Mystic Ranger does not "trade away Ranger features". That would be what ACFs do, while the Mystic Ranger is explicitly a variant class.

How this interacts with feats or PrCs requiring class levels is, as far as I can tell, not specified in any book. The way variant classes are introduced in Unearthed Arcana seems to imply that they should be considered separate entities from the normal class. For example, you could take levels both in Bard and Bardic Sage, or Rogue and Wilderness Rogue.

How this would interact with "must be Class" requirements is table-dependent, I guess.

[ericgrau]

RAW is pretty dumb in general and can't really exist because there's always some level of interpretation. Pushing RAW without any discussion is typically a way to push a personal interpretation and pretend that it's absolute indisputable fact.

But I'll play.



He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must.


So a sorcerer/wizard can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. He also must prepare ahead of time any spell he knows to cast it. Error, direct contradiction in rules.

Let's try bard"


He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time.

...

Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Bard.

...

As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.

A bard/wizard could work. He better leave at least 1 bard spell/day available for each level so he can still cast any spell he knows of that level.

But wait, let's look at wizard:


A wizard must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time.

...

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells.


A wizard/bard may both know any number of spells and not know any number of spells.

Favored soul then?



She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric must.

So far so good. Favored Soul/Cleric = error, but you can do Favored Soul/Wizard.


Unlike a cleric, a favored soul's selection of spells is limited.

Welp that died fast.

But halfway seriously context is part of the English language and you can't read anything without it. That's not an optional interpretation. You simply don't have the information without context. So that's what makes all these abilities only apply to a class' own spells. Because they're written in a language. And RAW doesn't really exist at all without some level of interpretation. You can have fun with the silly RAW thread to some extent, but as soon as you look at it too hard it all falls apart.

[Necroticplague]

The rules compendium has a section of Spontaneous Casting that spells this out fairly clearly, no need for any kind of foolish rules lawyering to arrive at what common sense tells you:

OTHER SPONTANEOUS CASTING
Some spellcasters prepare spells, but they can cast certain spells spontaneously as detailed in their class description. A good-aligned cleric or a cleric of a good-aligned deity canspontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell. A druid can spontaneously cast a summon nature’s ally spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher. Such spontaneous casting follows special rules for spontaneous spellcasting, such as how metamagic feats interact with casting time, but otherwise functions as normal spellcasting. A multiclass spellcaster can’t cast a spontaneous spell from one class in place of one from another class.