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The Giant
2018-10-08, 01:19 PM
New comic is up.

Qaanol
2018-10-08, 01:21 PM
Aw yes. We’re on a mission from Thor…to team up with Redcloak!

JumboWheat01
2018-10-08, 01:23 PM
Gotta love those special circumstance bonuses.

Crisis21
2018-10-08, 01:24 PM
'Single most special circumstance'... Love it!

137beth
2018-10-08, 01:24 PM
I burst out laughing at Thor's line in the last panel. And I appreciate getting an update on how the other gods view the Dark One.

HMS Invincible
2018-10-08, 01:25 PM
Again, did not expect the red cloak Thor East meets West team up. Now the question is how he can talk to him without getting killed.

endiku
2018-10-08, 01:26 PM
I burst out laughing at Thor's line in the last panel.

I laughed too :smallbiggrin:

Awesome update - Thanks Giant!

Sniffnoy
2018-10-08, 01:27 PM
Interesting. My initial thought was that the Dark One wouldn't go for such a thing because it doesn't help the goblins at all -- but actually this is a perfect bargaining opportunity. He can refuse to help out unless the other gods agree to his terms, without needing to deal with the ritual and threatening them directly with the Snarl and all that.

Of course the obvious problem is that you'd have to deal with Redcloak. And Durkon isn't even the High Priest of Thor, so can he even summon a proxy?

GM_3826
2018-10-08, 01:27 PM
It's nice to see Thor trying to comfort Durkon. As mentioned in a previous thread, Thor could easily just tell him to just do it-Durkon worships him, he's not going to ignore anything he says-but he seems to be trying his best to be respected as a person and not feared as a god, which is nice.

Fyraltari
2018-10-08, 01:27 PM
Yes! More gods!

Tiamat looks gorgeous, and I recognize Tyr (who I now think is evil) and Skadi but I'm not sure about the leftmost one (Freya?). Anyways they all look good.

The Dark One does not want to talk to Loki either, hmm, that's bad, that means Hilgya won't be as much helped as we'd hoped.

Also something is up with Skadi's speech balloon, it looks like she's saying "unt!" instead of "until".

Grey_Wolf_c
2018-10-08, 01:27 PM
Huh. Rat is the one most upset? I'm guessing he was pleased with how things were being run - all that backstabbing and plots must have been right down his alley.

Grey Wolf

GreatWyrmGold
2018-10-08, 01:27 PM
"Sorry for trying to kill you. And I know that this is going to ruin your plans, you god's current plans, and especially your (comedically temperamental) nominal boss's plans, but...can you help us seal the gates?"
Yeah, we're going to need some very special circumstances, pronto.

Amemnon91
2018-10-08, 01:27 PM
I love it Rich! Great work as always :)

Eldritch Queen
2018-10-08, 01:28 PM
Hoo, boy... I think you'd need a CHA save of at least 40 to convince Redcloak to do a team up. Thank goodness there aren't any Paladins on Roy's team, (anymore) or they'd be screwed.:smalleek:

GrayDeath
2018-10-08, 01:29 PM
Thor is awfully chipper.

But his last line IS somewhat true....^^

hamishspence
2018-10-08, 01:32 PM
Yes! More gods!

Tiamat looks gorgeous, and I recognize Tyr (who I now think is evil) and Skadi but I'm not sure about the leftmost one (Freya?). Anyways they all look good.

Maybe it's Sunna, Goddess of the Sun, whose priest wears similar orange and yellow colours?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html

Sniffnoy
2018-10-08, 01:32 PM
Huh. Rat is the one most upset? I'm guessing he was pleased with how things were being run - all that backstabbing and plots must have been right down his alley.

Grey Wolf

Well, going by Start of Darkness,

it was Rat (and Tiamat) who let the Dark One know about the Snarl in the first place.

And then the Dark One goes and conquers his city in return...

GreatWyrmGold
2018-10-08, 01:34 PM
Interesting. My initial thought was that the Dark One wouldn't go for such a thing because it doesn't help the goblins at all -- but actually this is a perfect bargaining opportunity. He can refuse to help out unless the other gods agree to his terms, without needing to deal with the ritual and threatening them directly with the Snarl and all that.
That's probably the best way to get Redcloak and the Dark One onboard with this whole deal. The question is, what sorts of demands would he have? And would Durkon and company be able to talk him down to just "treat goblins as actual sentient beings and not walking plot hooks/chunks of XP"?
...And would this deal extend to orcs, ogres, etc, or just goblins?



Huh. Rat is the one most upset? I'm guessing he was pleased with how things were being run - all that backstabbing and plots must have been right down his alley.
Not when he's the one being backstabbed!
The problem is that the Southern Gods' biggest city just got wrecked, and Rat thought he could trust the Dark One.



Hoo, boy... I think you'd need a CHA save of at least 40 to convince Redcloak to do a team up.
It's alright, this is still 3.5. Next level-up, Elan just needs to invest his skill ranks in Diplomacy and the skills that grant synergy bonuses. Diplomacy is pretty easy to break; you just need a good Charisma, a bit of careful optimization, and you can easily hit the DCs to turn hostile creatures indifferent. As long as there's no alternate Diplomacy rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9606632&postcount=2) in place, this'll be a bree...aw, crapbaskets.

Fyraltari
2018-10-08, 01:35 PM
Hoo, boy... I think you'd need a CHA save of at least 40 to convince Redcloak to do a team up. Thank goodness there aren't any Paladins on Roy's team, (anymore) or they'd be screwed.:smalleek:
What about O-Chul and Lien (and Hinjo if he's also going to the pole) ?

Maybe it's Sunna, Goddess of the Sun, whose priest wears similar orange and yellow colours?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html

Leftmost, relative to us. I identified Skadi from the face tatoos.

EDIT: Wow, did you just edit that it the time it took me to click on it? I'm amazed.

factotum
2018-10-08, 01:35 PM
One ninth-level spell slot? So Redcloak just needs to cast a ninth-level spell and that will somehow help out the Gods seal the rifts? Not sure how that's going to work, but I guess we'll find out in due time.

Reboot
2018-10-08, 01:35 PM
Frankly, they'd probably have better luck with the Dark One than with Redcoak on all precedent - RC is waaay too deep, TD1 is just angry.

Also, this is the "make Loki look good" book, eh?

Grey_Wolf_c
2018-10-08, 01:35 PM
And then the Dark One goes and conquers his city in return...

Well, yes, that's kinda my point. It doesn't feel like Rat would be that attached to this city of all cities. Thus my wondering if they were maybe impressed with the chaos due to the scope of its backroom politics.

Grey Wolf

Leirus
2018-10-08, 01:35 PM
Huh. Rat is the one most upset? I'm guessing he was pleased with how things were being run - all that backstabbing and plots must have been right down his alley.

Grey Wolf

Well, Rat defended the Dark One and his goblins tried to wipe out Azure city. I am guessing types like Kubota would be Rat's followers.

woweedd
2018-10-08, 01:37 PM
Calling it now: Not gonna work. At least, not long-term. Redcloak's wrapped in too many layers of denial, and couldn't quit even if he wanted to. My guess is he will redeem...About three seconds before Xykon disintegrates him. Also, unrelated, but who's' the redheaded goddess? Sif?

hamishspence
2018-10-08, 01:37 PM
Leftmost, relative to us. I identified Skadi from the face tatoos.

Yup - my guess is that the orange-wearing goddess is Sunna. Until I spotted the tattoo on Skadi's priest, I thought the rightmost goddess was Frigg - but I spotted it, and amended the post.

TRH
2018-10-08, 01:38 PM
Still not sure whether Redcloak or the Dark One himself will be less amenable to these overtures. Becoming increasingly convinced the latter is the big obstacle, though.

warmachine
2018-10-08, 01:38 PM
Convince a high priest to aid the scheme of another, hated god behind his god’s back? Non-starter. Establish a line of communication through Redcloak instead.

Kish
2018-10-08, 01:38 PM
Huh. Rat is the one most upset?
Yeah, I find myself wondering.

Thor's version of events says that the Dark One learned about the Snarl on his own, and cut off relations with Loki and all other gods for withholding information from him.

Redcloak's version of events says that the Dark One learned the bare minimum of the Snarl's existence and then his allies Loki, Tiamat, and Rat filled him in on all the details.

Is Loki really straightforwardly trying to do exactly what Thor would want done?

Is Rat really furious about the loss of Azure City?

Or do Loki, Tiamat, Rat, and the Dark One have some scheme of their own which Thor doesn't know about?

woweedd
2018-10-08, 01:39 PM
Convince a high priest to aid the scheme of another, hated god behind his god’s back? Non-starter. Establish a line of communication through Redcloak instead.
...I think The Dark One would be even LESS willing to negotiate then Redcloak. Where do you think he gets it from?

Sloanzilla
2018-10-08, 01:40 PM
Ok lol. Guess the "what happened to Greg?" Debate is formally settled.

GM_3826
2018-10-08, 01:40 PM
"Sorry for trying to kill you. And I know that this is going to ruin your plans, you god's current plans, and especially your (comedically temperamental) nominal boss's plans, but...can you help us seal the gates?"
Yeah, we're going to need some very special circumstances, pronto.

I'm guessing that the Snarl is going to rear its ugly head and Redcloak is going to change his mind on not sealing the gate at the very last moment. Mostly because he realizes he couldn't control it even in his wildest dreams, but also because Durkon convinces him somehow that the other gods really are going to make things better for goblins. Somehow.

The main explanation I can see as to why that would not happen is because we now have a plan, and as every one who browses TVTropes knows, plans that are spoken out loud almost never work. Then again, given what we now know about the Snarl... there doesn't really seem to be any way to defeat it if it is let loose. If that does happen, then as much as I trust Rich Burlew as a writer, I don't think the heroes will really win without some major ass pull. Not saying that something reasonable couldn't happen, but if it does, I will be pleasantly surprised.

Fyraltari
2018-10-08, 01:41 PM
...I think The Dark One would be even LESS willing to negotiate then Redcloak. Where do you think he gets it from?

His (lack of a) village?

TRH
2018-10-08, 01:42 PM
Well, yes, that's kinda my point. It doesn't feel like Rat would be that attached to this city of all cities. Thus my wondering if they were maybe impressed with the chaos due to the scope of its backroom politics.

Grey Wolf

It seems like Azure City's backroom politics have descended into fighting over scraps. Certainly that's what Kubota was doing. Rat might not appreciate the usual squabbling having so much lower stakes now.

woweedd
2018-10-08, 01:42 PM
His (lack of a) village?
Well, that too.

Fyraltari
2018-10-08, 01:44 PM
It seems like Azure City's backroom politics have descended into fighting over scraps. Certainly that's what Kubota was doing. Rat might not appreciate the usual squabbling having so much lower stakes now.

Isn't fighting over scrap a time-honored rat tradition?

woweedd
2018-10-08, 01:46 PM
Isn't fighting over scrap a time-honored rat tradition?

...Wait. I just realized. The Vietnamese Zodiac includes a cat, instead of a rabbit. The true power in Azure City indeed.

Leirus
2018-10-08, 01:47 PM
I wonder if Redcloack would be able to leave "The Plan" aside, after all he has done for it.

chy03001
2018-10-08, 01:47 PM
Oh dear...

I wonder if purple is just a fusion of blue and red gods...

Does that mean green was a fusion of blue and yellow?

Rrmcklin
2018-10-08, 01:49 PM
Oh dear...

I wonder if purple is just a fusion of blue and red gods...

Does that mean green was a fusion of blue and yellow?

No. Nothing about Thor's explanation leads to either of those conclusions.

LadyEowyn
2018-10-08, 01:49 PM
So the only god who's still on speaking terms with the Dark One is Tiamat (SOD showed Loki, Rat and Tiamat, and he's not talking to Loki or Rat any more), who has a very perrsonal and very serious vendetta with one member of the Order - namely, V.

I wonder if that will end up being significant?

Thor's plan in its current form isn't realistic - if the Order want any chance of convincing Redcloak to work with them, they'll need to offer some pretty serious concessions re: the status of goblns, not just ask nicely and make a Diplomacy check. Which means Thor needs to be willing to make those concessions.

I don't think Thor realizes that both The Dark One amd Redcloak consider the destruction of the world preferable to goblinoids' status quo. Offering cooperation as an alternative to the Plan, with goblinoids fgetting equality in return for their assastance, would have at least a chance of working, but Thor doesn't even seem to be considering that.

There's still a long way to go.

One other direction I can see the plot going is Redcloak having to choose between helping to close the Southern Continent rift or seeing the Snarl destroy Gobbotopia. That would be a powerful way of illustrating the choices he has to make about his priorities.

Rrmcklin
2018-10-08, 01:52 PM
So the only god who's still on speaking terms with the Dark One is Tiamat (SOD showed Loki, Rat and Tiamat, and he's not talking to Loki or Rat any more), who has a very perrsonal and very serious vendetta with one member of the Order - namely, V.

I wonder if that will end up being significant?

Thor's plan in its current form isn't realistic - if the Order want any chance of convincing Redcloak to work with them, they'll need to offer some pretty serious concessions re: the status of goblns, not just ask nicely and make a Diplomacy check. Which means Thor needs to be willing to make those concessions.

I don't think Thor realizes that both The Dark One amd Redcloak consider the destruction of the world preferable to goblinoids' status quo. Offering cooperation as an alternative to the Plan, with goblinoids fgetting equality in return for their assastance, would have at least a chance of working, but Thor doesn't even seem to be considering that.

There's still a long way to go.

No, Tiamat isn't on speaking terms with the Dark One; Thor specifically says that none of the other gods have contacted him since he found out.

Which as Kish pointed out, clashes with SOD a bit, so who knows what's going on there.

Reboot
2018-10-08, 01:55 PM
I don't think Thor realizes that both The Dark One amd Redcloak consider the destruction of the world preferable to goblinoids' status quo. Offering cooperation as an alternative to the Plan, with goblinoids fgetting equality in return for their assastance, would have at least a chance of working, but Thor doesn't even seem to be considering that.

The thing that TDO & RC probably don't realise is that the next world almost certainly won't *have* goblinoids as such - they will reset the theme again.

busterswd
2018-10-08, 01:56 PM
Hm...

Well, we have a strong hint that Tiamat is working with the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/L4MGnL4LK5jF4znr9uI.gif), so she may be putting her eggs into that basket.

I'm also guessing Jirek will probably come into play as the dark horse. As others have mentioned, Redcloak is way too wrapped up in his own issues to be easy to reason with.

Kish
2018-10-08, 01:58 PM
I think the chances of a goblinoid priest who 1) is level 17+ and thus able to cast ninth-level spells and 2) is not Redcloak, turning out to be significant to the story, are negligible.


The thing that TDO & RC probably don't realise is that the next world almost certainly won't *have* goblinoids as such - they will reset the theme again.
If the Dark One is truly around and making 1/4, or even considerably less than that as long as it's some, of the decisions, that won't matter.

"Goblins!"
"What? But this is a world of sapient math problems!"
"I don't care! It's my turn, my choice, and I say, goblins!"

GM_3826
2018-10-08, 01:59 PM
So the only god who's still on speaking terms with the Dark One is Tiamat (SOD showed Loki, Rat and Tiamat, and he's not talking to Loki or Rat any more), who has a very perrsonal and very serious vendetta with one member of the Order - namely, V.

I wonder if that will end up being significant?

Thor's plan in its current form isn't realistic - if the Order want any chance of convincing Redcloak to work with them, they'll need to offer some pretty serious concessions re: the status of goblns, not just ask nicely and make a Diplomacy check. Which means Thor needs to be willing to make those concessions.

I don't think Thor realizes that both The Dark One amd Redcloak consider the destruction of the world preferable to goblinoids' status quo. Offering cooperation as an alternative to the Plan, with goblinoids fgetting equality in return for their assastance, would have at least a chance of working, but Thor doesn't even seem to be considering that.

There's still a long way to go.

I disagree with "Thor doesn't seem to be considering that"; Thor is in a pretty good spot to mention next strip potentially using that as a bartering tool. If he doesn't, though, then I agree; maybe he didn't think of that. It's also possible that he just plain doesn't know that's what the Dark One wants...
Especially since it seems that Loki, Tiamat, and Rat are manipulating things along with the Dark One from behind the scenes. Maybe Loki knows that, but secretly desires to control the Snarl, so he "forgot" to tell his brother. He voted on the Godsmoot not to destroy the planet in order to give Redcloak more time, as well as keep up the charade. In hindsight, it seems kind of obvious.

SkinTaker
2018-10-08, 01:59 PM
"Good news! This is literally the single most special circumstance ever. You'll do fine."

LMAO. Perfect. You continue to slay, Giant.

Calemyr
2018-10-08, 02:01 PM
It'll be interesting to see how The Dark One and Redcloak will take this added detail. Pre-Azure City Redcloak would laugh at it, but he's since taken a broader view of what "goblin-kind" is and what his obligations to it are.


As long as there's no alternate Diplomacy rules (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9606632&postcount=2) in place, this'll be a bree...aw, crapbaskets.

I feel obligated to say: "Huh, wow. You say that, too?"

Vendanna
2018-10-08, 02:02 PM
Huh. Rat is the one most upset? I'm guessing he was pleased with how things were being run - all that backstabbing and plots must have been right down his alley.

Grey Wolf

probably because the hobgoblins are eating all the rats as food rations, or the devil roaches came in and displaced all the rats that were in azure city. :P

LadyEowyn
2018-10-08, 02:03 PM
I'm also guessing Jirek will probably come into play as the dark horse. As others have mentioned, Redcloak is way too wrapped up in his own issues to be easy to reason with.

Does Jirix have 9th-level spells? That's what Thor said would be necessary.

EDIT: Ah, thanks Kish. So that would be a "no". Redcloak's the only one high-level enough.

Seto
2018-10-08, 02:03 PM
"A single 9-level spell slot would be enough"? This looks like setup. I wonder what the payoff is going to be. Maybe Redcloak could even unwillingly provide that slot? By casting Miracle to get Right-Eye resurrected or something?

Kish
2018-10-08, 02:04 PM
probably because the hobgoblins are eating all the rats as food rations, or the devil roaches came in and displaced all the rats that were in azure city. :P
Actually...

There is at least one giant rat wandering around in Gobbotopia, who somehow I do not think was permitted to freely chase cats through the streets of Azure City.

Jaxzan Proditor
2018-10-08, 02:05 PM
Well, that’s quite the heavy task for Durkon. I guess that Book 7 will probably revolve pretty heavily around that.

Bad Wolf
2018-10-08, 02:06 PM
Hm...

Well, we have a strong hint that Tiamat is working with the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/L4MGnL4LK5jF4znr9uI.gif), so she may be putting her eggs into that basket.

I'm also guessing Jirek will probably come into play as the dark horse. As others have mentioned, Redcloak is way too wrapped up in his own issues to be easy to reason with.

Hmm. Well if the IFCC are working for the archfiends/demon princes/whatever, then Tiamat would be the person who has a lot of pull with their bosses.

They're just incorporaing their promise to Tiamat into their plan. It's like going to the store for milk and someone asks you to also pick up cereal.

Gluteus_Maximus
2018-10-08, 02:09 PM
Well, tiamat is allying herself with the goblins, a growing military force, and funding the IFCC's goal to Ally all of the fiends together behind the scenes.

She wants to overwhelm the mortals with powerful fiends while telling the goblins that the fiends won't harm them in exchange for their ritual to move the gate to the non-tiamat gods' homes. Then, she will be the last god along with the dark one, so all the non-goblin souls would go to her being the only god remaining besides TDO.

Redcloak seems well aware of their 3-way alliance. He summoned many fiends to take care of the resistance, when he probably could have crushed it on his own with a non-classical elemental or two, considering their leader was a mid-level paladin. He even gifted the fiends with rewards, to keep them in service. T thinks that if they have all the souls, 2 colors, 3 colors, or 4 colors won't matter.

This is to much plot to fit in book 6 still, though. This would definitely be a book 7 thing.

Reboot
2018-10-08, 02:09 PM
Hm...

Well, we have a strong hint that Tiamat is working with the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/L4MGnL4LK5jF4znr9uI.gif), so she may be putting her eggs into that basket.
Umm... did you continue on to read the *aftermath* of that call (calls?)? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html

hamishspence
2018-10-08, 02:10 PM
Yeah, I find myself wondering.

Thor's version of events says that the Dark One learned about the Snarl on his own, and cut off relations with Loki and all other gods for withholding information from him.

Redcloak's version of events says that the Dark One learned the bare minimum of the Snarl's existence and then his allies Loki, Tiamat, and Rat filled him in on all the details.

Is Loki really straightforwardly trying to do exactly what Thor would want done?

Is Rat really furious about the loss of Azure City?

Or do Loki, Tiamat, Rat, and the Dark One have some scheme of their own which Thor doesn't know about?

It should be noted that

only Rat and Tiamat were shown during the "The Dark One receives information" scene.

So "He learned about it on his own" can refer to discovering the Snarl's existence, and "cut off all ties with Loki" may be

"because Loki acted like a friend, but didn't tell him - it was left to Rat and Tiamat to tell him - and so The Dark One is indignant."

Gluteus_Maximus
2018-10-08, 02:11 PM
Umm... did you continue on to read the *aftermath* of that call (calls?)? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html

They say that such a slaughter will be trivial :P

Adghar
2018-10-08, 02:13 PM
One ninth-level spell slot? So Redcloak just needs to cast a ninth-level spell and that will somehow help out the Gods seal the rifts? Not sure how that's going to work, but I guess we'll find out in due time.

It sounds more like a reference to D&D 3.5e Epic Spellcasting, where multiple spellcasters team up to cast one spell by spending their mana on it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm#tableAdditionalParticipan tsinRituals



Epic spells can be developed that specifically require additional participants. These spells are called rituals. An epic spell developed as a ritual requires a specific number of additional participants, who each must use up one spell slot of a specified level for the day. During an epic spell’s development, the spell’s creator determines the number of additional participants and the level of the spell slots to be contributed. If the exact number of spellcasters does not partake in the casting, or if the casters do not each contribute the proper spell slot, the epic spell automatically fails. To participate, each participant readies an action to contribute his or her raw spell energy when the primary caster begins the epic spell. Additional participants in a ritual spell reduce the Spellcraft DC, as shown on Table: Additional Participants in Rituals. Each additional participant may only contribute one spell slot. It doesn’t matter whether the additional participants are arcane or divine spellcasters; only the level of the spell slot contributed matters. A contributed spell slot is treated as if normally cast. A wizard may contribute either a prepared, uncast spell slot, or an open, unprepared slot. The Spellcraft DC adjustments for each additional participant stack.

I.e. to "contribute one spell slot" is very much a different beast than "cast a ninth-level spell." One of them directs magical energy into a combined effort; another funnels it into a specific purpose (such as Miracle.)

Shining Wrath
2018-10-08, 02:13 PM
Oh boy this is a tough assignment for Durkon. Not so much because he's bad at persuasion, but because Redcloak has utter and absolute contempt for the Good alignment. Not to mention complete loyalty to his god, as might be expected from a high priest. It will take the realization that the Snarl will kill The Dark One and all the goblins to get him to even stop and listen.

I do think that waiting for a purple quiddity deity who doesn't think "unleashing the Snarl on the Outer Planes is a legitimate tactic" has some merit.

I wonder what Hilgya would think of someone who liquifies followers of Loki? Probably not much. The idea of Hilgya joining up with OotS looks less plausible.

"The guy who just talked a vampire into non-existence" is a very good point - and the reason Durkon was able to do that is because he never gives up. A trait inherited from the magnificent Sigdi. The question is, how many chances will Durkon get to talk to Redcloak?

Connington
2018-10-08, 02:16 PM
I think the chances of a goblinoid priest who 1) is level 17+ and thus able to cast ninth-level spells and 2) is not Redcloak, turning out to be significant to the story, are negligible.

Last minute reveal of Right-Eye's daughter confirmed. /s

More seriously: I like how the five heads of Tiamat aren't just palette swaps in the new, art style. It's a nice bit of detailing.

greenfunkman
2018-10-08, 02:18 PM
Wow I've never seen so many people on this forum be so right with their predictions before! Kudos all.

Thank you Giant, looking forward to watching this play out!

hamishspence
2018-10-08, 02:21 PM
More seriously: I like how the five heads of Tiamat aren't just palette swaps in the new, art style. It's a nice bit of detailing.

Tiamat's heads were always a little different from one another (horn shape, crests, etc):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

but it's interesting to see that the blue head now has a massive lower jaw when compared to the others.

Lord Torath
2018-10-08, 02:21 PM
Also something is up with Skadi's speech balloon, it looks like she's saying "unt!" instead of "until".I noticed that too.

I love how Thor is illustrating his tale with small images of the gods between his hands. I loved in the previous strip how The Dark One was glaring at everyone!

Thanks, Rich!

Lathund
2018-10-08, 02:29 PM
So the only god who's still on speaking terms with the Dark One is Tiamat (SOD showed Loki, Rat and Tiamat, and he's not talking to Loki or Rat any more), who has a very perrsonal and very serious vendetta with one member of the Order - namely, V.

I wonder if that will end up being significant?

Great catch! And I bet it will!

The MunchKING
2018-10-08, 02:33 PM
"A single 9-level spell slot would be enough"? This looks like setup. I wonder what the payoff is going to be. Maybe Redcloak could even unwillingly provide that slot? By casting Miracle to get Right-Eye resurrected or something?

I;m guessing it's less "Cast any 9th level spell in the general vicinity of a rift" (seeing as he's done that before) and more "cast a 9th level slot's worth of power in a specific Gate-building ritual".

busterswd
2018-10-08, 02:34 PM
Does Jirix have 9th-level spells? That's what Thor said would be necessary.

EDIT: Ah, thanks Kish. So that would be a "no". Redcloak's the only one high-level enough.

The Cloak itself allows even a mook cleric to cast high level spells once it's worn. It's possible that it could be 9th level.

Rogar Demonblud
2018-10-08, 02:38 PM
Well, that's next book's impossible task. Can't wait to see how it gets pulled off.

Ruck
2018-10-08, 02:39 PM
Hm...

Well, we have a strong hint that Tiamat is working with the IFCC (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/L4MGnL4LK5jF4znr9uI.gif), so she may be putting her eggs into that basket.


Umm... did you continue on to read the *aftermath* of that call (calls?)? http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html


They say that such a slaughter will be trivial :P

...Okay? How is that relevant to Tiamat being obviously furious with the IFCC and not exactly "working with" them?


Oh dear...

I wonder if purple is just a fusion of blue and red gods...

Does that mean green was a fusion of blue and yellow?


No. Nothing about Thor's explanation leads to either of those conclusions.

There are also multiple threads already dedicated to this line of questioning, if one wants to explore it.


Ok lol. Guess the "what happened to Greg?" Debate is formally settled.

On the one hand, the gods are not omnipotent and we don't know that Thor knows exactly what happened to Greg's spirit. On the other hand, it seems to be canon that negative energy spirits merge back into the negative energy plane, rather than enter the same afterlife process as souls do.


Huh. Rat is the one most upset? I'm guessing he was pleased with how things were being run - all that backstabbing and plots must have been right down his alley.

Grey Wolf

Well, Rat vouched for the Dark One and got the favor returned by the Dark One's high priest leading an army to stomp out the largest city and seat of power for worshipers of the Southern Pantheon.


Well, yes, that's kinda my point. It doesn't feel like Rat would be that attached to this city of all cities. Thus my wondering if they were maybe impressed with the chaos due to the scope of its backroom politics.

Grey Wolf

He might well have enjoyed Shojo's rule for that reason-- Good though it was-- and perhaps just be upset that so many of his worshipers were killed, in order to set up a Lawful society dedicated to the Dark One.


Yeah, I find myself wondering.

Thor's version of events says that the Dark One learned about the Snarl on his own, and cut off relations with Loki and all other gods for withholding information from him.

Redcloak's version of events says that the Dark One learned the bare minimum of the Snarl's existence and then his allies Loki, Tiamat, and Rat filled him in on all the details.

Is Loki really straightforwardly trying to do exactly what Thor would want done?

Is Rat really furious about the loss of Azure City?

Or do Loki, Tiamat, Rat, and the Dark One have some scheme of their own which Thor doesn't know about?

These are good questions. It's possible there's a secret scheme at hand here, especially given the named players (two practically defined by secret scheming, one who can grant the gift of prophecy, and one with a reason to not trust the other gods); on the other hand, given how close the world came to being destroyed (technically, it's not out of the woods yet, either) it seems like any scheme planned around this world might be for naught right soon if they don't take action.

I surmise it's probably more likely that The Dark One cut Loki off, and Thor says he learned about the Snarl "on his own" because the Northern Gods don't know the details.

It also seems like, if that's the case, then Tiamat is the only real ally of The Dark One remaining.

hamishspence
2018-10-08, 02:42 PM
The Cloak itself allows even a mook cleric to cast high level spells once it's worn. It's possible that it could be 9th level.

A point is made in SOD

of how Redcloak is not high enough level yet to cast certain spells.

So I doubt that it grants "casts as very high level cleric" to low level clerics.

Calemyr
2018-10-08, 02:44 PM
probably because the hobgoblins are eating all the rats as food rations, or the devil roaches came in and displaced all the rats that were in azure city. :P

I don't think the Twelve represent their animal persona, but rather have portfolios based on their entry in the Chinese Zodiac - such as Rat being quick-witted and resourceful and Goat being calm and gentle. On the Northen side, Thor is about honor, valor, and the barbarian way and Loki is all about inventive subversion of the establishment.

So Rat would be a definite supporter of Shojo, who managed to keep a nearly self-destructive order of paladins up and running and directed without losing focus on the well-being of the city and the fate of the world. He did so with a constant dance of manipulation and misdirection, by being quick-witted and resourceful. So the city of one of his favorite mortals was wasted by goblins. Of course he'd be furious.

Meanwhile, I suspect Durkon would be tied to the Goat - quiet, low key, friendly, and supportive.

PontificatusRex
2018-10-08, 02:48 PM
I think the main difficulty won't be getting Redcloak and the Dark One to agree - though that will be a challenge. The REAL problem will be Xykon.

I mean, the entire point of the Plan is to threaten the gods with the Snarl in order to wring concessions out of them, or if the world ends then to create a new world where things are better. So if the gods get through and say "All right, you've got your concessions and you don't even need to risk unleashing the Snarl and murdering all your current living worshipers", it's not that hard to imagine The Dark One agreeing. But the cuts out Xykon completely - he gets nothing for his decades of work on it. And I bet his ego would be pretty pleased if he traded "Ruler of the World" for "Unleashed the Worst Disaster in the History of Creation".

So what do YOU think will happen if Xykon gets the news that the Plan is cancelled because the Dark One has come to a peaceful agreement with the rest of the gods?

Elfey
2018-10-08, 02:54 PM
So panel 3 in this one is Thor's version of panel 3, page 40 of SRD.

That Panel was the Dark One's version as told to Redcloak. In that version Loki was behind the Dark One, not between them.

Seto
2018-10-08, 02:54 PM
I;m guessing it's less "Cast any 9th level spell in the general vicinity of a rift" (seeing as he's done that before) and more "cast a 9th level slot's worth of power in a specific Gate-building ritual".

True, I know the way you describe it would make more sense... But just, the formulation of it set off the "this is setup" bells in my brain. "A 9th level spell slot would be enough." The fact that Thor spells out exactly what would and would not be sufficient, instead of just a vaguer "get him to contribute in the ritual", makes me think that it will have an importance. If the Giant tells us in advance that a 9th level slot would work, it probably means that he has a twist in mind and is properly foreshadowing it so that it doesn't come out of nowhere.

The fact is, we don't know the specifics of the ritual. The twist could be "the Order sets up the ritual and Redcloak unwittingly completes it with a 9th level spell"*. Or it could be "Redcloak is dying, finally agrees to save the world and only has enough time left for a standard action, it sure is lucky that we only need one 9th level slot". But I don't think it's gonna be "Redcloak is convinced and participates in the ritual without any particular constraints."

*Admittedly, Thor's intentions seem to be going in another direction: diplomacy rather than trickery. But you never know what characters might do to save the world if Durkon is met with refusal.

Kish
2018-10-08, 02:57 PM
True, I know the way you describe it would make more sense... But just, the formulation of it set off the "this is setup" bells in my brain. "A 9th level spell slot would be enough." The fact that Thor spells out exactly what would and would not be sufficient, instead of just a vaguer "get him to contribute in the ritual", makes me think that it will have an importance.
How about, "So you do need to convince Redcloak, the only priest of the Dark One who has ninth-level spells, not Jirix or any random goblinoid cleric who hasn't been your enemy since he was random-goblin-who-existed-for-Xykon-to-have-someone-to-talk-to"?

Seto
2018-10-08, 02:59 PM
How about, "So you do need to convince Redcloak, the only priest of the Dark One who has ninth-level spells, not Jirix or any random goblinoid cleric who hasn't been your enemy since he was random-goblin-who-existed-for-Xykon-to-have-someone-to-talk-to"?

Ah, yes, fair point. That could also be it, and I could have been overthinking. We'll see! :smallsmile:

Rollin
2018-10-08, 02:59 PM
Interesting. My initial thought was that the Dark One wouldn't go for such a thing because it doesn't help the goblins at all -- but actually this is a perfect bargaining opportunity. He can refuse to help out unless the other gods agree to his terms, without needing to deal with the ritual and threatening them directly with the Snarl and all that.

Of course the obvious problem is that you'd have to deal with Redcloak. And Durkon isn't even the High Priest of Thor, so can he even summon a proxy?

Durkon seems to retain the vampire’s memories, which should include at least the memory of casting Summon Proxy at the Godsmoot. I don’t know the ins and outs of D&D magic as to how far this would get him in trying to cast it.

Then there’s the possibility that Thor could teach it to him, though that may be against one of the gods’ agreements.

busterswd
2018-10-08, 03:03 PM
A point is made in SOD

of how Redcloak is not high enough level yet to cast certain spells.

So I doubt that it grants "casts as very high level cleric" to low level clerics.



Has it ever been confirmed how the cloak works? Not being obstreperous, genuinely asking.

The example I'm pulling from is when Redcloak, brand new cleric initiate, instantly Smites a Paladin after receiving the cloak. The cloak raises the caster's power somehow, either from granting a list of spells or spell like abilities for the day, or maybe from increasing the caster's level. In the former case, even if that spell list doesn't allow Heal, it's possible there's other high level spells stored in the cloak. In the latter, if Jirix is a high enough level, the cloak could give him the boost he needs to able to do so.

On the other hand, Rich is a good enough writer where something I'm convinced is impossible (convincing Redcloak to play ball) right now could make perfect sense when it finally does happen.



...Okay? How is that relevant to Tiamat being obviously furious with the IFCC and not exactly "working with" them?

Hm, I actually forgot the part where she is convinced on the spot of a "secret scheme", and it's not something she's been privy to the whole time. Scrap that idea. :smallredface:

woweedd
2018-10-08, 03:03 PM
How about, "So you do need to convince Redcloak, the only priest of the Dark One who has ninth-level spells, not Jirix or any random goblinoid cleric who hasn't been your enemy since he was random-goblin-who-existed-for-Xykon-to-have-someone-to-talk-to"?
True, sadly enough. Too bad, too. I'd have pegged Jirix as Lawful Neutral.

Shining Wrath
2018-10-08, 03:04 PM
I think the main difficulty won't be getting Redcloak and the Dark One to agree - though that will be a challenge. The REAL problem will be Xykon.

I mean, the entire point of the Plan is to threaten the gods with the Snarl in order to wring concessions out of them, or if the world ends then to create a new world where things are better. So if the gods get through and say "All right, you've got your concessions and you don't even need to risk unleashing the Snarl and murdering all your current living worshipers", it's not that hard to imagine The Dark One agreeing. But the cuts out Xykon completely - he gets nothing for his decades of work on it. And I bet his ego would be pretty pleased if he traded "Ruler of the World" for "Unleashed the Worst Disaster in the History of Creation".

So what do YOU think will happen if Xykon gets the news that the Plan is cancelled because the Dark One has come to a peaceful agreement with the rest of the gods?

Xykon's being played by Redcloak. That's not going to sit well with him. And what Xykon fears most of all is "the fire down below" - he'll do anything to avoid his soul facing judgment. But ... if the gods pull the plug on this world, his soul goes on to its reward, and Xykon will never have enough power to avoid that fate. So Xykon needs to not cooperate with TDO's plan. Unless ...

Xykon manages to use the threat of the ritual to insist on being ascended to godhood (maybe he can join The Dark One's pantheon). That's going to be his price.

Now, suppose Redcloak agrees with Durkon. And therefore, MitD considers that Redcloak has betrayed Xykon, and the charm triggers, and MitD attempts to eat Redcloak - who is needed to save the world from the Snarl.

At that point we get a throw-down of Redcloak plus the Order against the incredible power evidently represented by MitD, probably backed by Xykon.

jwhouk
2018-10-08, 03:04 PM
"You pulled off one miracle, what's another?"

Thor expects a lot out of his Durkon, don't he?

Winterhorn
2018-10-08, 03:06 PM
Wow! This is amazing! I have to wonder, was this Rich's plan for the dark one all along (well, obviously after DCF, when he made a plan and set up the plot), or is this random stuff pulled out recently?

woweedd
2018-10-08, 03:07 PM
Xykon's being played by Redcloak. That's not going to sit well with him. And what Xykon fears most of all is "the fire down below" - he'll do anything to avoid his soul facing judgment. But ... if the gods pull the plug on this world, his soul goes on to its reward, and Xykon will never have enough power to avoid that fate. So Xykon needs to not cooperate with TDO's plan. Unless ...

Xykon manages to use the threat of the ritual to insist on being ascended to godhood (maybe he can join The Dark One's pantheon). That's going to be his price.

Now, suppose Redcloak agrees with Durkon. And therefore, MitD considers that Redcloak has betrayed Xykon, and the charm triggers, and MitD attempts to eat Redcloak - who is needed to save the world from the Snarl.

At that point we get a throw-down of Redcloak plus the Order against the incredible power evidently represented by MitD, probably backed by Xykon.
First of all, I ever got the snes XYkon feared death much. He used that phrase as a rhetorical device and he became a Lich on a lark. Also, you act like Xyon could nto easily kill Redcloak if he wanted. Redcloak controls him in the same way your cat controls you:It may think it's in charge, but you're still in total control.

FlawedParadigm
2018-10-08, 03:11 PM
Durkon seems to retain the vampire’s memories, which should include at least the memory of casting Summon Proxy at the Godsmoot. I don’t know the ins and outs of D&D magic as to how far this would get him in trying to cast it.

Then there’s the possibility that Thor could teach it to him, though that may be against one of the gods’ agreements.

Well, technically speaking in the ruleset being used, deities grant spells per day at the Cleric's request, not terribly dissimilar from how Wizards pick their spells. However, as the process does involve a sapient deity, there's no reason Thor couldn't, say, suggest "Hey, I feel like you're going to run into Redcloak today. How about you swap one of your slots out for Summon Proxy just in case?"

At least, that's how it could work in a tabletop game. Thor here in the strip is being fairly clear he wants Durkon to accomplish this. The only way I could see this coming up is if Redcloak's immediate response to negotiations is to suggest Durkon is lying. This itself seems unlikely as Redcloak could probably just verify the particulars with TDO if need be, but in any case I don't see Durkon summoning Thor to talk to RC directly.

Chei
2018-10-08, 03:11 PM
There are some funny parallels between Thor's pep talk with Durkon and The Dark One's message to Redcloak through Jirix. 'You'll do fine' and 'but no pressure' (not 100% on the second) tell me these gods are quite used to relying on mortals without overly oppressing them. I really can't wait to hear TDO speak on-panel in the main comic, not in crayon.

Fyraltari
2018-10-08, 03:11 PM
I do think that waiting for a purple quiddity deity who doesn't think "unleashing the Snarl on the Outer Planes is a legitimate tactic" has some merit.
Thing is, it seems like the Dark One managed to tap into purple because he was so pissed at all the other gods. If that is true then any other theoritical purple deity will present the same issue.

And the gods don't seem to be 100% sure of what happened either. Maybe now that someone tapped into purple it is locked forever and only the Dark One and those he sponsors could ever access it. Maybe there is a finite number of different quiddities. Maybe this is all a massive coincidence and the Dark One's color has absolutely nothing to do with what we think it has to do.

Point is. The Dark One is here right now. Better try to salvage that rather than wait for something that is extremely unlikely and may very well never happen again ever.

Especially since if the Dark One does survive this world and he refuses to play nice for the next world they may end up with another Snarl to deal with.

I mean, the entire point of the Plan is to threaten the gods with the Snarl in order to wring concessions out of them, or if the world ends then to create a new world where things are better. So if the gods get through and say "All right, you've got your concessions and you don't even need to risk unleashing the Snarl and murdering all your current living worshipers", it's not that hard to imagine The Dark One agreeing. But the cuts out Xykon completely - he gets nothing for his decades of work on it. And I bet his ego would be pretty pleased if he traded "Ruler of the World" for "Unleashed the Worst Disaster in the History of Creation".

So what do YOU think will happen if Xykon gets the news that the Plan is cancelled because the Dark One has come to a peaceful agreement with the rest of the gods?
Well that's already a flaw in Redcloak's plan, so one hopes he has contigency in place for this.

...

Knowing the self-agrandizing bastard, he's planing to get killed over this as some twisted way of redeeming himself in his own eyes, isn't he?

FlawedParadigm
2018-10-08, 03:13 PM
"You pulled off one miracle, what's another?"

Thor expects a lot out of his Durkon, don't he?

Being fair, he literally knows him better than anyone. ;)

Fyraltari
2018-10-08, 03:16 PM
"You pulled off one miracle, what's another?"

Thor expects a lot out of his Durkon, don't he?
Life's tough when you are your god's Chosen, heh?

Wow! This is amazing! I have to wonder, was this Rich's plan for the dark one all along (well, obviously after DCF, when he made a plan and set up the plot), or is this random stuff pulled out recently?

The gods' respective colors have been clonsistently used since the Crayons of Time and the Dark One has never had a single direct line keeping us guessing at his character and goals despite being Redcloak's main backer.

The Giant's been planning this for a long time, alright.

EDIT: According to Red (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) "the majority of the other gods have colluded to hide the existe,ce of the Gates..."
So that's another point for team "Thor is wrong about the what happened between the Dark One and his former allies".

Maybe Rat is putting on a show of being upset?

shaxberd
2018-10-08, 03:21 PM
So the fate of everything hinges on the diplomatic skills of a dwarf? Not that I'm worried, but what if there happen to be trees? Or beer from human lands? Things could go wrong.

FlawedParadigm
2018-10-08, 03:23 PM
So the fate of everything hinges on the diplomatic skills of a dwarf? Not that I'm worried, but what if there happen to be trees? Or beer from human lands? Things could go wrong.

#1: Elan is guaranteed a happy ending.

#2: We've just seen the graveyard of "worlds that failed." This would be a wasted story at this point if it's not the story of the one that succeeds (even if only in a partial fashion or something.)

#3: I appreciate the attempt at humour nonetheless. :p

GreatWyrmGold
2018-10-08, 03:29 PM
One ninth-level spell slot? So Redcloak just needs to cast a ninth-level spell and that will somehow help out the Gods seal the rifts? Not sure how that's going to work, but I guess we'll find out in due time.
Remember how big of a deal Thor made about the number of "colors" in the divine magic? The other gods who have experience re-sealing the Snarl do most of the work, and Redcloak adds a touch of purple to resist the Snarl's green.



The main explanation I can see as to why that would not happen is because we now have a plan, and as every one who browses TVTropes knows, plans that are spoken out loud almost never work.
"Convince Redcloak to help the gods seal away the Snarl" seems less like a plan and more like a goal. Which, admittedly, still have a pretty high failure rate...



The thing that TDO & RC probably don't realise is that the next world almost certainly won't *have* goblinoids as such - they will reset the theme again.
If The Dark One has a say, there will probably be goblinoids. But nobody's sure how that would work; the lack of standardized, safe communication channels suggests that the old gods probably don't have a plan for integrating TDO into the world-creation process, either.



More seriously: I like how the five heads of Tiamat aren't just palette swaps in the new, art style. It's a nice bit of detailing.
Didn't notice that. Hey, that's neat!



I don't think the Twelve represent their animal persona, but rather have portfolios based on their entry in the Chinese Zodiac - such as Rat being quick-witted and resourceful and Goat being calm and gentle. On the Northen side, Thor is about honor, valor, and the barbarian way and Loki is all about inventive subversion of the establishment.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that that's obvious.



I think the main difficulty won't be getting Redcloak and the Dark One to agree - though that will be a challenge. The REAL problem will be Xykon.
Redcloak's already planning to betray Xykon. Don't get me wrong, actually betraying him (and in a different manner than planned) isn't easier, but I can't imagine it'll be more difficult than convincing Redcloak to abandon his plan.



Durkon seems to retain the vampire’s memories, which should include at least the memory of casting Summon Proxy at the Godsmoot. I don’t know the ins and outs of D&D magic as to how far this would get him in trying to cast it.
Summon Proxy isn't a standard spell. Heck, it might not even be a "spell" per se so much as a special ability granted by being a High Priest.



Thing is, it seems like the Dark One managed to tap into purple because he was so pissed at all the other gods. If that is true then any other theoritical purple deity will present the same issue.
The purple is just another color. The Dark One is only a new color specifically because he ascended without help from another deity. If a human or dog or something ascended to divine status without help from other gods, their quiddity would work as well.
...But the gods can't exactly bank on that, so they're trying to make The Dark One thing work.

Ruck
2018-10-08, 03:32 PM
I've speculated previously on how Durkon might have enough shared experiences with Redcloak to convince him to at least listen to him, but this is also a case where I wonder if Durkon's poor charisma actually works in his favor-- given Redcloak's intelligence and wisdom (I presume), I imagine he's going to be a difficult sell if he thinks whoever brings up the idea is lying to him-- but Durkon is easily the member of the Order least likely to do that, between his general Lawfulness / trustworthiness, and his lack of the charisma necessary to Bluff people.

I wonder if this will be explicitly mentioned by Thor.

Keltest
2018-10-08, 03:36 PM
"You pulled off one miracle, what's another?"

Thor expects a lot out of his Durkon, don't he?

The reward for work well done is more work.

vivalanapoleon
2018-10-08, 03:36 PM
Diplomacy might not even be necessary. Redcloak is special only in the sense that he's literally wearing the red cloak, right? Could Durkon don it and access the Dark One's quiddity during the sealing ritual? Could the cloak be used directly to fuel it?

Ruck
2018-10-08, 03:38 PM
Wow! This is amazing! I have to wonder, was this Rich's plan for the dark one all along (well, obviously after DCF, when he made a plan and set up the plot), or is this random stuff pulled out recently?

I very much doubt that it was "random stuff pulled out recently."


Diplomacy might not even be necessary. Redcloak is special only in the sense that he's literally wearing the red cloak, right? Could Durkon don it and access the Dark One's quiddity during the sealing ritual? Could the cloak be used directly to fuel it?

The cloak only works for an actual priest of the Dark One, as I understand it. So, no.

Rrmcklin
2018-10-08, 03:39 PM
Diplomacy might not even be necessary. Redcloak is special only in the sense that he's literally wearing the red cloak, right? Could Durkon don it and access the Dark One's quiddity during the sealing ritual? Could the cloak be used directly to fuel it?

No, because Durkon isn't a priest of the Dark One. And Thor specifically mentions "even a 9th level spell would be enough" or something, and Durkon isn't capable of those.

Gift Jeraff
2018-10-08, 03:42 PM
How fitting that Durkon was originally lied to by Hurak about Thor sending him on a divine mission of diplomacy.

Rogar Demonblud
2018-10-08, 03:43 PM
Wow! This is amazing! I have to wonder, was this Rich's plan for the dark one all along (well, obviously after DCF, when he made a plan and set up the plot), or is this random stuff pulled out recently?

Rich turned OOTS from a joke-a-day to a longform-story comic pretty early--probably around the time Elan cast Summon Exposition and the strip suddenly grew a plot. The exact details may have been in flux, but the outline was set long ago and whole scenes crafted at the beginning have had almost no alteration when eventually released (cf Durkon Turns Undead).

hroþila
2018-10-08, 03:48 PM
All they need is to defeat Team Evil, capture Redcloak, tell him what's what and have Elan wear him down by repeatedly saying "Pretty please?" until he agrees to cooperate.

Psychronia
2018-10-08, 03:53 PM
Thor certainly knows how to give a pep talk. I guess it comes with the territory.

Once again, what we need isn't just a cleric. We need Durkon. Though I wonder if we actually need Redcloak himself. I mean, this'll probably shake up to be an interesting character arc for him too, but, in theory, it can be any powerful cleric for the Dark One, right?

faustin
2018-10-08, 03:54 PM
Sigh..after so many eons and so many worlds built and destroyed by the Snarl, the Gods haven't learned yet to play along. That's the true tragedy.

Grey Pilgrim
2018-10-08, 04:08 PM
The fact that in this comic world Loki is brother to Thor bothers me way more than it should :smallfrown:

Linneris
2018-10-08, 04:18 PM
It took me a while to realize that the lines in panel 2 were a close-up on Thor rather than some symbolic representation of new mini-Snarls threatening to spring between the quarreling gods.

The comic itself has mostly confirmed what we forumites had already inferred, but it's nice to have a confirmation of both what happened between the gods and the new quest that Durkon has received.

Shining Wrath
2018-10-08, 04:27 PM
First of all, I ever got the snes XYkon feared death much. He used that phrase as a rhetorical device and he became a Lich on a lark. Also, you act like Xyon could nto easily kill Redcloak if he wanted. Redcloak controls him in the same way your cat controls you:It may think it's in charge, but you're still in total control.

Xykon may not have many ranks in religion, but he knows damn well what happens to a CE mass-murderer when they die, and it's not to become a Demon Lord with dominion over all they survey.


The reward for work well done is more work.

"Unless properly managed, work flows to the competent person until they submerge".


The fact that in this comic world Loki is brother to Thor bothers me way more than it should :smallfrown:

That's also canon in the Norse religion; both were sons of Odin, but by different mothers. https://youtu.be/EsghUIbr2TQ

RMS Oceanic
2018-10-08, 04:35 PM
Wow, that's a tall order.

Hope you've got something a little stronger than "pwetty pwease" to persuade them Thor, because Durkon's hidden persuasion power doesn't sound like it will be nearly enough to sell "instead of using this thing to empower your god, help us put it beyond anyone's reach".

Vessyra
2018-10-08, 04:37 PM
Oh! I know how the Dark One can be convinced; all the deities need to do is is give Dark One this amazing fashion tip:

More spikes.

Because seriously, who doesn't want to look great in front of their followers?

Fyraltari
2018-10-08, 04:39 PM
That's also canon in the Norse religion; both were sons of Odin, but by different mothers. https://youtu.be/EsghUIbr2TQ

Uh. No. Pretty sure that in Norse mythology, Loki is Odin's blood brother (that is through a blood pact not biological) which makes him Thor's uncle, if anything.

Roland Itiative
2018-10-08, 04:53 PM
So, let's say RC eventually comes around to the idea. I'm assuming that by "the process of closing the rifts", Thor means the making of new Gates, with RC as the divine caster. This brings two problems to my mind:

1- The Gates still exist, and so does the Ritual, perpetuating the risk of the Gates being used against the gods (specially if RC double-crosses TDO while doing it, without the god ever giving up on his Plan).

2- New rifts will still appear "in a few thousand years or so". RC is unlikely to still be alive by then, and again, if they don't convince TDO to give up on his Plan, someone will have to pull out the same "convince a high priest to betray his god to patch up reality" with the new "Redcloak", who will serve a TDO who is wiser against the shceme, no less.

So, what Thor just proposed is a temporary stopgap at most, it's just buying time, they'll still need to somehow convince TDO to play ball with the other pantheons (and the other pantheons to accept it).

hroþila
2018-10-08, 04:55 PM
Uh. No. Pretty sure that in Norse mythology, Loki is Odin's blood brother (that is through a blood pact not biological) which makes him Thor's uncle, if anything.
"Mythology" and "canon" are practically mutually exclusive anyway.

Sylian
2018-10-08, 04:57 PM
That's also canon in the Norse religion; both were sons of Odin, but by different mothers.Loki's father, Fárbauti, was a jötunn (giant), and his mother was Laufrey.

b_jonas
2018-10-08, 05:00 PM
Oh dear...

I wonder if purple is just a fusion of blue and red gods...

Does that mean green was a fusion of blue and yellow? No. This is not Steven Universe. The colors are just surfacial indicator of the underlying quiddities, which Thor understands even though Durkon doesn't, so I don't think he is mistaken here.

Fyraltari
2018-10-08, 05:02 PM
All they need is to defeat Team Evil, capture Redcloak, tell him what's what and have Elan wear him down by repeatedly saying "Pretty please?" until he agrees to cooperate.
Sounds like a plan.

"Mythology" and "canon" are practically mutually exclusive anyway.
True. But that particular thing comes from Marvel, not from "Norse religion".

warmachine
2018-10-08, 05:07 PM
In my opinion, Thor's best move is to get an invitation to the Godsmoot delivered to Redcloak, complete with rules, especially the one that high priests may never be attacked. Thor's minions should have already watched Redcloak and realised he'd never help the other gods without his god's approval. Of course, the Dark One has a secret plan but diplomacy at the Godsmoot and a LOT of concessions might convince him to aid with repairs instead. Might.

KrankenWagon
2018-10-08, 05:07 PM
The reward for work well done is more work.

The Peter Principle: TLDR version, people who do good work keep getting promoted until they no longer do good work

subanark
2018-10-08, 05:33 PM
So how does one trick a goblin to cast a 9th level spell at the gate?

Liquor Box
2018-10-08, 05:36 PM
The circumstance bonus should be to Durkon's intimidate check (not his diplomacy) and should arise after he has captured Redclaok and given him a good beating. Persuading a person to change their entire ideology and goals is a near impossible diplomacy check, forcing them to do something when they are under your control is a pretty easy intimidate check. From a story perspective it adds an interesting ethical question as well - is torture justified when it's the only way to save the world?

Do we think that magically compelling Redcloak to cast the spell would work?

Kish
2018-10-08, 05:48 PM
"Let's torture a cleric who's level 17+ and higher level than any of us, specifically into casting a ninth-level spell."

Ethical issues aside (which they would not be, nowhere close), sounds like a brilliant plan.

Liquor Box
2018-10-08, 06:05 PM
"Let's torture a cleric who's level 17+ and higher level than any of us, specifically into casting a ninth-level spell."

Ethical issues aside (which they would not be, nowhere close), sounds like a brilliant plan.

If they are able to defeat him, why not? Defeating him (and thus making him prisoner) seems the hardest part of the enterprise, and defeating him has always been the Order's goal, so they must see it as realistic (despite not knowing about the MitD's split loyalties).

Persuading him seems much less realistic to me.

If persuading intelligent people who have entrenched and justified (a justification that they buy into, even if you don't) ideologies and goals to do a complete u-turn were plausible then the world we live in would be a very different place. If such persuasion were realistic, why wouldn't you apply it in the real world to get a politician who you vehemently disagree with to do a u-turn and instead stand for policies you prefer (or if you're not persuasive, why would another person not do the same). The answer is because it it nigh impossible to change a person's deeply entrenched views by persuasion. Realistically, the prospects of Durkon persuading Redcloak to go the opposite direction to his plans, is about as high as the chances of someone persuading Hitler to foster an inclusive society.

It is possible that the order persuading Redcloak will be something that happens in the comic, but if it does it would be a disappointingly unrealistic outcome for me. Certainly far less realistic than the Order capturing Redcloak and compelling him to cast the spell.

Fyraltari
2018-10-08, 06:08 PM
realistic [...] realistic [...] the world we live in [...] realistic [...] real world [...] Realistically [...] unrealistic [...] realistic

I thought about writing a complicated and unnecessarily long-winded reply but I think this gets the issue with your point across much more efficently.

Crisis21
2018-10-08, 06:24 PM
I thought about writing a complicated and unnecessarily long-winded reply but I think this gets the issue with your point across much more efficently.

The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to be believable.
- Mark Twain.

Fyraltari
2018-10-08, 06:27 PM
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction has to be believable.
- Mark Twain.

Leaving aside the difference between realism, verisimilitude and believability, Liquor Box is also missing the obvious third option: trick Redcloak into casting the spell the Order needs.

Rogar Demonblud
2018-10-08, 06:28 PM
Thor certainly knows how to give a pep talk. I guess it comes with the territory.

Once again, what we need isn't just a cleric. We need Durkon. Though I wonder if we actually need Redcloak himself. I mean, this'll probably shake up to be an interesting character arc for him too, but, in theory, it can be any powerful cleric for the Dark One, right?

As long as that cleric is at least 17th level, sure.

Redcloak may well be the only cleric of The Dark One with double digit levels.

Bluepaw
2018-10-08, 06:29 PM
Ohhhhhh I really like where this is going.

Liquor Box
2018-10-08, 06:51 PM
I thought about writing a complicated and unnecessarily long-winded reply but I think this gets the issue with your point across much more efficently.

It is important to a story that people act somewhat realistically within the setting (so if the setting allows magic, using magic is of course realistic). Every update we have threads predicting what may happen, what a person will do, or opining on why a character did a thing - any such speculation is founded on the assumption that characters will act somewhat realistically within the context of their setting. I think the OotS generally caters well to the importance of characters acting realistically, and I hope it does not depart from that.

In this strip, we see the Giant lampshading the unrealism of using conversation skills to get implausible outcomes (or altering reality as Hayley refers to it) as a joke. I think it would be disappointing if the major plot point of the entire comic was resolved in such a way:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0768.html


Liquor Box is also missing the obvious third option: trick Redcloak into casting the spell the Order needs.
You're right, i did miss that option. Not sure how feasible it is though - probably depends on whether he just has to cast a spell in the general direction of the rift, or whether it has to be a particular spell with the purpose of adding his god's quiddity to the equation.

Wowlock
2018-10-08, 06:54 PM
"Sorry for trying to kill you. And I know that this is going to ruin your plans, you god's current plans, and especially your (comedically temperamental) nominal boss's plans, but...can you help us seal the gates?"
Yeah, we're going to need some very special circumstances, pronto.

Well Durkon simply can say '' Redcloak, all your people and probably your God will be Snarl food if you don't help close those rifts. '' And I do believe Redcloak is smarter than letting a petty power grab that will eventually destroy everything, along with his people, happen. If not, well then he and his God deserve their fate.

Crisis21
2018-10-08, 06:58 PM
This comic actually brings some interesting context to the collective votes of the Southern and Western pantheons in comic #999 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html). To recap: The Western Gods voted in favor of destroying the world and the Southern Gods voted against (which, incidentally, means that the Northern Gods were the tie-breaker vote if anyone's interested in adding an extra layer to the current tie-breaker recursion).

What does this mean in respect to this comic? Well, consider what Thor said about the Western pantheon: The only deity from that pantheon even aware that the Dark One exists is Tiamat. As far as the rest of them are concerned, nothing at all is different about this run than any of the others. (Also, why does Tiamat know and the others don't? She has influence - and thus interests - outside the Western continent, as evidenced by her being the Oracle's patron deity.)

The Southern pantheon on the other hand is very aware that the Dark One exists... and they voted against destroying the world. How many of them did so for reasons similar to Thor's? Even after considering that the Dark One's people basically uprooted their major seat of influence?



Leaving aside the difference between realism, verisimilitude and believability, Liquor Box is also missing the obvious third option: trick Redcloak into casting the spell the Order needs.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the spell needs to be cast deliberately for the purpose it will be used to accomplish. Meaning the only way to trick him would be to outright lie about whatever is promised to convince him in the first place, which not only woudn't sit well with Redcloak when he learns about it but also likely wouldn't sit well with several of the other members of the Order.

Plus, you have to consider that Redcloak needs to do this five times, not one.

Sloanzilla
2018-10-08, 07:13 PM
I wonder if there are any feats where you can use your wisdom bonus instead of your charisma bonus on diplomacy rolls?

Durkon has that feat in my headcanon.

Liquor Box
2018-10-08, 07:14 PM
Well Durkon simply can say '' Redcloak, all your people and probably your God will be Snarl food if you don't help close those rifts. '' And I do believe Redcloak is smarter than letting a petty power grab that will eventually destroy everything, along with his people, happen. If not, well then he and his God deserve their fate.

Doesn't Redcloak already know about the Snarl and everything though? Redcloak's master plan relies on the Snarl potentially wreaking havoc and killing the gods, to blackmail the gods. The latest comic explicitly states that the dark one knows the secret of the Snarl, so no information that Durkon gives Redclaok will be new.

GM_3826
2018-10-08, 07:20 PM
Well Durkon simply can say '' Redcloak, all your people and probably your God will be Snarl food if you don't help close those rifts. '' And I do believe Redcloak is smarter than letting a petty power grab that will eventually destroy everything, along with his people, happen. If not, well then he and his God deserve their fate.

The problem is convincing him of that. It's true that if he realizes just how big of a threat the Snarl is he should back down, but people don't always think logically. Because, you know, they're people.

DougTheHead
2018-10-08, 07:41 PM
If I had to guess what could possibly turn Redcloak, I'd have to say that this is where Jirix squishing the cockroach (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) comes into play. Redcloak gave Azure City to the goblins because he wants to prove that they are just as capable of creating and maintaining civilization as any of the sentient races; if it's somehow revealed to Redcloak that Jirix went Full Self-Destructive Dictator immediately after Xykon and he disappeared, that might put just enough doubt in his mind to compromise--he would still have plenty of excuses for the goblins, but he might get just enough doubt to think that maybe a more cooperative approach to sealing the rifts is necessary.

GM_3826
2018-10-08, 07:43 PM
If I had to guess what could possibly turn Redcloak, I'd have to say that this is where Jirix squishing the cockroach (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) comes into play. Redcloak gave Azure City to the goblins because he wants to prove that they are just as capable of creating and maintaining civilization as any of the sentient races; if it's somehow revealed to Redcloak that Jirix went Full Self-Destructive Dictator immediately after Xykon and he disappeared, that might put just enough doubt in his mind to compromise--he would still have plenty of excuses for the goblins, but he might get just enough doubt to think that maybe a more cooperative approach to sealing the rifts is necessary.

Are you sure that that was not just a joke?

KorvinStarmast
2018-10-08, 07:45 PM
From a story perspective it adds an interesting ethical question as well - is torture justified when it's the only way to save the world? Rich is writing OoTS, not the TV show 24 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_(TV_series)).

Do we think that magically compelling Redcloak to cast the spell would work? Haley; what she does is beyond magic, and defies reason.

Insofar as your suggestion regarding torture: Belkar will be for it, Roy will not. That conversation, if there is one, will be very, very short. It's outcome is known.

dtilque
2018-10-08, 08:07 PM
If the Dark One is truly around and making 1/4, or even considerably less than that as long as it's some, of the decisions, that won't matter.

If they destroy this world and build another as a result of the Godsmoot, the Dark One will not be involved in that building. He doesn't have any agreement with them to participate, so the three pantheons are not going to give him any decisions about it. OK, he could try to intrude, but that will just produce Snarl 2.0.


So panel 3 in this one is Thor's version of panel 3, page 40 of SRD.

That Panel was the Dark One's version as told to Redcloak. In that version Loki was behind the Dark One, not between them.

The SoD version is in crayons. Anything drawn in crayons is not to be considered perfectly accurate. It's all told second or third or even tenth hand and details may be wrong.

Ruck
2018-10-08, 08:07 PM
From the sense of the kind of story being told, how stories are more powerful when characters make their own decisions and are held to the consequences, and that Rich himself has said the latter regarding character deaths:

Redcloak won't be tortured into joining the heroes to seal the gate, because our heroes are in a classically heroic tale, not a gritty and grimdark one about antiheroes who have to become monsters to beat monsters.

Redcloak also won't be tricked or magically compelled into sealing the gate, because it cheapens the impact of the story if his own agency is taken out of the decision.


If they destroy this world and build another as a result of the Godsmoot, the Dark One will not be involved in that building. He doesn't have any agreement with them to participate, so the three pantheons are not going to give him any decisions about it. OK, he could try to intrude, but that will just produce Snarl 2.0.

So... he's potentially in an even better position to blackmail the other gods?

ackmondual
2018-10-08, 08:09 PM
There are 3 OotS board games...
Dungeon Of Durakan
The Shortening (shorter version of the above)
and Linear Guild which IIRC is the expansion to the first.


It could be really awesome and epic if they made a board game taking place on the immortal planes, the various gods, the Dark One, and the Snarl. THAT is what the "wheeling and dealing" bg should've been (nm the DoD takes a bit too long, but I prefer to play that as a full-co-op... no backstabbing).

Rrmcklin
2018-10-08, 08:11 PM
If they destroy this world and build another as a result of the Godsmoot, the Dark One will not be involved in that building. He doesn't have any agreement with them to participate, so the three pantheons are not going to give him any decisions about it. OK, he could try to intrude, but that will just produce Snarl 2.0.



The SoD version is in crayons. Anything drawn in crayons is not to be considered perfectly accurate. It's all told second or third or even tenth hand and details may be wrong.

From the way Thor describes it here, the Dark One doesn't participate in things because he doesn't want to. But if he wants to be involved and the others say no, that's just asking for another Snarl to be created, and none of them want that.

If he tries to force his way in, they are not going to say no.

Riarra
2018-10-08, 08:18 PM
Maybe convincing Hilgya to resurrect Durkon is the Order's trial run before they move on to Redcloak.

Windscion
2018-10-08, 08:25 PM
re: Xykon.
Xykon thinks that if the world is destroyed, his soul will regenerate inside his astral fortress.
He is almost certainly mistaken, since RC handed him a fake phylactery (831, 833).
Therefore, Xykon may well be willing to let the world burn, altho that isn't his primary plan.

Convincing RC to change the plan would be really hard. Ironically, this may be where Xykon is useful. Depending upon how Xykon backstabs RC, it might push RC to listen to the Order. However, this would only seem likely if Xykon's chosen method was a huge freaking bomb/plague/curse poised to destroy Gobbotopia if RC doesn't play along.

Convincing TD1 is similarly challenging, since he is clearly not listening.

TLDR: Expect cooperation only after RC has been stripped of all other options.

Borris
2018-10-08, 08:37 PM
I like how panel 4 puts into perspective why gods like Tyr, Skadi, and Sunna (I think) would want to end the current world right away.

LadyEowyn
2018-10-08, 08:46 PM
Based on what we've seen in the last few comics, I do think we will see the Order and Redcloak working together. It fits best with what's been revealed - the fact that containing the Snarl requires to gods to come to an accommodation with the goblins - and with what Rich has shown us in of his beliefs, especially in GDGU. He will not write this comic that leaves an unjust status quo unaddressed.

I don't know yet how it will happen, but I'm confident that Rich can do it in a way that I find realistic. It won't be an easy path for any of the characters - least of all for Redcloak - but it can happen.

There are at least two possibilities for acieving it that I can see, though likely Rich will do something else I'm not expecting. First, Redcloak could, after considerable effort and conflict, be convinced that an option that achieves the Plan's goals - goblinoid equality - without risking the world's destruction is worthwhile, especially if it helps him get rid of Xykon in the process. Xykon is the main villain of the strip, Rich has said, and that means the Order and Redcloak have a common enemy. It's been clear ever since the retrieval of the phylactery that Redcloak is counting down the days until he can be rid of Xykon (and therefore finds the indefinite dungeon-crawl of the final Gate galling).

A second option is that Redcloak could be faced with the imminent danger of the Rift above Gobbotopia consuming the city, and have to choose between losing the city or helping the Order seal the Rift.

Regardless, his character arc is very far from over.

Crisis21
2018-10-08, 08:58 PM
Oooo... all this talk about stuff from SoD made me remember something:

Redcloak and Right-Eye reveal in Start of Darkness that the three pantheons explicitly created goblins (and possibly other 'monster' races) to serve as XP fodder for their clerics (and by extension other adventurers). The Dark One learned about this upon ascension to godhood and was pissed. This information, to my knowledge, hasn't been shared with any of the protagonists yet. Imagine if Redcloak drops that particular bomb during negotiations.

Larre Gannd
2018-10-08, 09:29 PM
Oooo... all this talk about stuff from SoD made me remember something:

Redcloak and Right-Eye reveal in Start of Darkness that the three pantheons explicitly created goblins (and possibly other 'monster' races) to serve as XP fodder for their clerics (and by extension other adventurers). The Dark One learned about this upon ascension to godhood and was pissed. This information, to my knowledge, hasn't been shared with any of the protagonists yet. Imagine if Redcloak drops that particular bomb during negotiations.

I feel like Thor might mention it soon, because I am guessing that if Thor wants the order on board with negotiations, then he’ll need to be fully transparent.

rbetieh
2018-10-08, 09:31 PM
So what would happen to the dark one if the world is un-made? No more Goblins anymore, no seat at the table to help create the world....

ManuelSacha
2018-10-08, 10:09 PM
So let me get this straight.
Is Thor's plan to get Redcloak's cooperation... with or without the Dark One's approval?
I mean, it's a hard sell to make.
I agree that Redcloak seems the most reasonable out of the two, but he's also received some very clear and direct orders (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) from the Dark One.
He's had no qualms about fooling Xykon, but I don't see him disobeying his god.

Crisis21
2018-10-08, 10:16 PM
So let me get this straight.
Is Thor's plan to get Redcloak's cooperation... with or without the Dark One's approval?
I mean, it's a hard sell to make.
I agree that Redcloak seems the most reasonable out of the two, but he's also received some very clear and direct orders (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) from the Dark One.
He's had no qualms about fooling Xykon, but I don't see him disobeying his god.

Maybe, but I honestly think that Thor would realize the inherent folly of trying to convince a cleric to directly oppose their own god.

It's more likely that given the lack of options Thor has of contacting the Dark One directly and that most gods probably aren't generally in the business of listening to any mortal that doesn't follow them directly, that Thor is going for the next best option: Having one of his clerics contact the Dark One's high cleric and essentially conducting the negotiations by proxy (and not necessarily the summoned kind). Because clerics aren't just followers of their god, they're representatives of their god in the mortal realm.

JackRackham
2018-10-08, 10:31 PM
TDO refusing to speak with the other gods (could be understandable or) could cast this in a different light. It's entirely possible that he does not *want* simply to negotiate for better treatment of the goblins, but actually wants to shift a gate to the outer planes to negotiate for his own power. He IS an evil deity, after all.

If that turns out to be the case, I'm not sure his interests align with Redcloak's. For all his faults, I suspect RC really is in it for the good of goblins. So, things could get very, very interesting.

godsflunky
2018-10-08, 10:35 PM
I was getting seriously bummed about the world's chances until the last panel. Then I laughed out loud and knew we'd be fine.

It'll be a wild ride, and I can't wait to see all the twists and turns, but we'll be fine.

This is gonna be great.

MaverickMopete
2018-10-09, 12:37 AM
:elan: "A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everybody knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!"

Wouldn't you say Durkon's odds of convincing Redcloak to go along with this are one in a million?

woweedd
2018-10-09, 12:58 AM
:elan: "A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everybody knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!"

Wouldn't you say Durkon's odds of convincing Redcloak to go along with this are one in a million?
Well, yes, but there's always the risk they're one in nine hundred ninety-nine thousand nine hundred ninety-nine. You need the sweet spot. Narrative don't settle for rounding-up.

RMS Oceanic
2018-10-09, 01:22 AM
I don't think Redcloak will be tricked or coerced into helping. He has his own character arc, and I think Rich will be able to have it intersect with Durkon in an interesting way. It's a very hard thing he's asked to do, because we don't see how it comes about, but I have faith it will be satisfying.

hamishspence
2018-10-09, 01:34 AM
Has it ever been confirmed how the cloak works? Not being obstreperous, genuinely asking.

The example I'm pulling from is when Redcloak, brand new cleric initiate, instantly Smites a Paladin after receiving the cloak. The cloak raises the caster's power somehow, either from granting a list of spells or spell like abilities for the day, or maybe from increasing the caster's level. In the former case, even if that spell list doesn't allow Heal, it's possible there's other high level spells stored in the cloak. In the latter, if Jirix is a high enough level, the cloak could give him the boost he needs to able to do so.


I figured that was just the Destruction domain ability.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#destructionDomain

Takver
2018-10-09, 01:49 AM
Rich did a really good job of making the three gods in panel 4 identifiable. When you compare to 999, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) you can match the gods by their high priests through appearance and dialogue. Notable that the three gods Thor shows here (Sunna, Tyr, Skadi) who are unwilling to work with the Dark One, were also all Yes votes at the Godsmoot.

woweedd
2018-10-09, 02:03 AM
I figured that was just the Destruction domain ability.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#destructionDomain
Yep. He says as much. All the cloak does is slow the aging process and grant knowledge of The Plan, as well as signifying the bearer's role as High Priest.

Rawr
2018-10-09, 02:25 AM
Wait, Thor (and assuming the other gods too) was able to see the internal battle between durkon and durkula?!




How fitting that Durkon was originally lied to by Hurak about Thor sending him on a divine mission of diplomacy.

I didn't even think about that! How fitting indeed.

Rrmcklin
2018-10-09, 02:29 AM
Wait, Thor (and assuming the other gods too) was able to see the internal battle between durkon and durkula?!





I didn't even think about that! How fitting indeed.

We already knew that. I don't know why you'd assume the other gods though; Durkon is Thor's cleric so Thor gets to know these things, seems to be how it works.

Laze
2018-10-09, 02:44 AM
It's great to see a lot of information about OOTS theology. So, I am curious how various devilfolk falls into it. Are evil gods in charge of hell(s)? Tiamat wasn't in charge of IFCC, but she was somewhat working with them. Are there some sort of archdevils in charge? Do they have colours? Were they created by the gods? Did they had a hand in creating the worlds?
I am not sure how it works in D&D and I am not sure how it's working here.

Fyraltari
2018-10-09, 03:12 AM
Wait, Thor (and assuming the other gods too) was able to see the internal battle between durkon and durkula?!

Probably not, however he would know how vampires work and would have seen the vampire dropping his shell and baring his chest. Not so hard to guess what had happened.

JackRackham
2018-10-09, 03:34 AM
It's great to see a lot of information about OOTS theology. So, I am curious how various devilfolk falls into it. Are evil gods in charge of hell(s)? Tiamat wasn't in charge of IFCC, but she was somewhat working with them. Are there some sort of archdevils in charge? Do they have colours? Were they created by the gods? Did they had a hand in creating the worlds?
I am not sure how it works in D&D and I am not sure how it's working here.

Alomg the same lines, something I've always wondered in d&d is what determines who goes to the lower planes vs who goes to evil outer planes.

woweedd
2018-10-09, 03:50 AM
Alomg the same lines, something I've always wondered in d&d is what determines who goes to the lower planes vs who goes to evil outer planes.
Those are the same place.

Linneris
2018-10-09, 04:07 AM
"I ain't exactly a diplomat."

Oh, come on, Durkon. Diplomacy IS on the cleric's skill list. Pour in enough skill points and you won't even notice that Charisma penalty.

dtilque
2018-10-09, 04:18 AM
From the way Thor describes it here, the Dark One doesn't participate in things because he doesn't want to. But if he wants to be involved and the others say no, that's just asking for another Snarl to be created, and none of them want that.

If he tries to force his way in, they are not going to say no.

The reason he'd want to be involved is to make sure that goblins get a fair shake in the new world. From what Thor says, some of them will welcome him to join, but some are going to want to say NO in a forceful way that makes sure there's no new Snarl.

Hans of Frysia
2018-10-09, 04:59 AM
It's great to see a lot of information about OOTS theology. So, I am curious how various devilfolk falls into it. Are evil gods in charge of hell(s)? Tiamat wasn't in charge of IFCC, but she was somewhat working with them. Are there some sort of archdevils in charge? Do they have colours? Were they created by the gods? Did they had a hand in creating the worlds?
I am not sure how it works in D&D and I am not sure how it's working here.

To the best of my (admittedly not very extensive) knowledge, in D&D the hells came into existence independently from the gods, although (arch)devils and/or demons have achieved apotheosis. In other words, none of the 'regular' gods are in charge of the hells, but devils/demons with divine ranks do exist.
There is no indication that things work similarly in the OOTSverse, though.

Lemarc
2018-10-09, 05:19 AM
This is a silly, pedantic point, really, but why is OOTS Thor blond? Thor is very consistently red-headed in the myths. It's even one of his kennings. Just a side effect of early, wacky strips where research wasn't a priority, followed by the need for consistency between strips, I guess? ...I'll see myself out.

hroþila
2018-10-09, 05:21 AM
This is a silly, pedantic point, really, but why is OOTS Thor blond? Thor is very consistently red-headed in the myths. It's even one of his kennings. Just a side effect of early, wacky strips where research wasn't a priority, followed by the need for consistency between strips, I guess? ...I'll see myself out.
Because OotS Thor is not Real-World Mythology Thor and is more heavily influenced by Marvel Thor, who is blond.

Bacon Elemental
2018-10-09, 06:01 AM
I dont think its likely that Jirix could take over in The Plan from Redcloak, seeing as he's apparently low enough level that a Paladin armed with a broken cage bar one-shot him (and then he had to be raised too so he lost a level)

Laze
2018-10-09, 06:38 AM
What if hobgoblin previously known as Supreme Leader will come back?

Dausuul
2018-10-09, 07:06 AM
I;m guessing it's less "Cast any 9th level spell in the general vicinity of a rift" (seeing as he's done that before) and more "cast a 9th level slot's worth of power in a specific Gate-building ritual".

I'm betting somewhere in between: The spell has to be cast at the rift (or at something right in front of said rift), but does not need to be part of a specific ritual. Thus, if Durkon can draw Redcloak's fire with the right spell at the right moment, he can fulfill his mission... in a callback to what happened to Kraagor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

Darth Paul
2018-10-09, 07:31 AM
I called it.... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23384901&postcount=5) at least the basics of Durkon being sent on a diplomatic mission to Redcloak. Okay, I halfway called it.

But I felt that the occasion of my very first correct theory should be suitably marked. :smallcool:

FlawedParadigm
2018-10-09, 08:25 AM
Ultimately, Durkon has an easy sell here if he thinks about it. He can convince Redcloak to take his words on faith. They're clerics. Their lives literally revolve around taking things based on faith. And if Durkon doesn't think that one up on his own, Haley would be quick to catch that if she's present and conscious and capable of speech at the time.

(Although again, as I mentioned, RC can verify particulars with TDO - but I think the above bit makes more sense from the perspective of getting two wildly divergent characters to find common ground in a desperate situation.)

M Placeholder
2018-10-09, 08:25 AM
Xykon may not have many ranks in religion, but he knows damn well what happens to a CE mass-murderer when they die, and it's not to become a Demon Lord with dominion over all they survey.

Don't forget, he doesn't want to be a chump that didn't have the balls to stay in the game.

M Placeholder
2018-10-09, 08:35 AM
Tiamat's heads were always a little different from one another (horn shape, crests, etc):

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

but it's interesting to see that the blue head now has a massive lower jaw when compared to the others.

Probably a feature of all blue dragons in this world. Enor, the Half Blue Dragon Half Half-Ogre, also has a massive lower jaw, so it's not too much of a stretch to assume Blue Dragons have massive lower jaws.

mjasghar
2018-10-09, 08:36 AM
Uh. No. Pretty sure that in Norse mythology, Loki is Odin's blood brother (that is through a blood pact not biological) which makes him Thor's uncle, if anything.

Depends on the myth
Often he is referred to either as an adopted giant or half giant

Patram
2018-10-09, 08:52 AM
Durkon says he isn't a diplomat, but seriously, if there were any OOTS character that could convince me to do something crazy, it would be him. Looking forward to seeing how Durkon pulls this off. Even if he could offer something of value to the goblin, Redcloak isn't that approachable in the first place.

b_jonas
2018-10-09, 08:54 AM
In this strip, we see the Giant lampshading the unrealism of using conversation skills to get implausible outcomes (or altering reality as Hayley refers to it) as a joke. I think it would be disappointing if the major plot point of the entire comic was resolved in such a way:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0767.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0768.html Also #965, in which Haley convinces the ship repairing gnomes to work cheaper and faster (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html).

Crisis21
2018-10-09, 08:56 AM
It's great to see a lot of information about OOTS theology. So, I am curious how various devilfolk falls into it. Are evil gods in charge of hell(s)? Tiamat wasn't in charge of IFCC, but she was somewhat working with them. Are there some sort of archdevils in charge? Do they have colours? Were they created by the gods? Did they had a hand in creating the worlds?
I am not sure how it works in D&D and I am not sure how it's working here.

The IFCC has a non-compete clause with the evil gods (comic #634, first panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)). As such is is reasonable to assume that fiends in general work separate and distinct from the evil gods.


What if hobgoblin previously known as Supreme Leader will come back?

What if the hobgoblin previously known as Supreme Leader is Jirix?


I'm betting somewhere in between: The spell has to be cast at the rift (or at something right in front of said rift), but does not need to be part of a specific ritual. Thus, if Durkon can draw Redcloak's fire with the right spell at the right moment, he can fulfill his mission... in a callback to what happened to Kraagor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

I said this earlier this thread, but it bears repeating: Redcloak has to do this five times, not one. As such tricking him into sealing one rift is counter-productive.

DaggerPen
2018-10-09, 09:07 AM
All they need is to defeat Team Evil, capture Redcloak, tell him what's what and have Elan wear him down by repeatedly saying "Pretty please?" until he agrees to cooperate.

This is a hilarious mental image.


What if the hobgoblin previously known as Supreme Leader is Jirix?

I used to be fond of this theory, but the events of How the Paladin Got His Scar have made me a lot less sure of that theory.


I said this earlier this thread, but it bears repeating: Redcloak has to do this five times, not one. As such tricking him into sealing one rift is counter-productive.

This is a good point. It's also worth noting that this means that TDO will have to be at least somewhat on board with this plan, as it's doubtfully anything that can be done with one day's worth of spell slots, and TDO would revoke his magic the next time he tried to renew his spell slots if he disapproved.

Shining Wrath
2018-10-09, 09:16 AM
If Durkon can get Redcloak to talk at all, he can ask him to cast Zone of Truth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/zoneOfTruth.htm). I don't know if Durkon can deliberately fail his save.

The knowledge that the ritual moving a Gate to the Outer Planes means the gods pull the plug on the world and all goblinkind dies, and also quite possibly so does The Dark One, might obtain agreement from Redcloak. I am unsure what would happen to TDO if this world ends, but Tyr's comment in this strip's flashback suggests that The Dark One disappears (or loses all power) when this world is destroyed.

I wonder how TDO plans to deal with the possibility of the gods simply ending the world rather than negotiate with him?

Ubab
2018-10-09, 09:20 AM
And now, we need a charismatic dwarf to talk to RedCloak's.

I'm like MJ, eating popcorn at the cinema.

Laze
2018-10-09, 09:34 AM
The knowledge that the ritual moving a Gate to the Outer Planes means the gods pull the plug on the world and all goblinkind dies, and also quite possibly so does The Dark One


Red Cloak is surprisingly okay with destroying the world in Star of darkness, so it may not work that well




The IFCC has a non-compete clause with the evil gods (comic #634, first panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)). As such is is reasonable to assume that fiends in general work separate and distinct from the evil gods.
What if the hobgoblin previously known as Supreme Leader is Jirix?


How many "sides" are there in this conflict, anyway?

Jirix seems to have quite different character and personality than ex-SL, but it is possible. Also Jirix and O-chul would probably recognize each other.

Crisis21
2018-10-09, 09:36 AM
I used to be fond of this theory, but the events of How the Paladin Got His Scar have made me a lot less sure of that theory.


That's a good point. He and O-Chul might have recognized each other in that case.

hamishspence
2018-10-09, 09:41 AM
Quite a bit of time has passed since then (on the order of 8 years or so). If hobgoblins are short-lived, like goblins are, Jirix may have been too young to have been in the hobgoblin clergy at the time O-Chul was present in hobgoblin territory.

That said, Former Supreme Leader might have recruited a young Jirix, and told him, in broad strokes, about O-Chul's activities.

Linneris
2018-10-09, 09:44 AM
If Durkon can get Redcloak to talk at all, he can ask him to cast Zone of Truth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/zoneOfTruth.htm). I don't know if Durkon can deliberately fail his save.

Judging by the spell description as written ("each potentially affected creature is allowed a save to avoid the effects"), it seems to me that one can opt out of a save.

Crisis21
2018-10-09, 09:47 AM
How many "sides" are there in this conflict, anyway?

Jirix seems to have quite different character and personality than ex-SL, but it is possible. Also Jirix and O-chul would probably recognize each other.
1) "At least nine" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)

Order of the Stick
Xykon (Working with Redcloak)
Redcloak/Dark One (Manipulating Xykon)
IFCC
(Remnants of) Linear Guild (may count as lackeys of the IFCC)
Hel
(Former) Sapphire Guard? (allied with OotS)
Order of the Scribble?
Thor/Loki/Gods in favor of including the Dark One against the Snarl (allied with OotS?)
Tyr/Skadi/Sunna/Gods against including the Dark One
The Snarl?




2) Point


Quite a bit of time has passed since then (on the order of 8 years or so). If hobgoblins are short-lived, like goblins are, Jirix may have been too young to have been in the hobgoblin clergy at the time O-Chul was present in hobgoblin territory.

That said, Former Supreme Leader might have recruited a young Jirix, and told him, in broad strokes, about O-Chul's activities.
Interesting analysis.

Crœsos
2018-10-09, 09:57 AM
Has it ever been confirmed how the cloak works? Not being obstreperous, genuinely asking.

The example I'm pulling from is when Redcloak, brand new cleric initiate, instantly Smites a Paladin after receiving the cloak. The cloak raises the caster's power somehow, either from granting a list of spells or spell like abilities for the day, or maybe from increasing the caster's level. In the former case, even if that spell list doesn't allow Heal, it's possible there's other high level spells stored in the cloak. In the latter, if Jirix is a high enough level, the cloak could give him the boost he needs to able to do so.

While we may not have a complete understanding of how the Crimson Mantle works, we do know a few things. For example, it automatically imparts the Divine half of the gate-moving ritual to its wearer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html), provided the wearer is a priest of the Dark One. Whatever other powers it may have, the Crimson Mantle seems to have been made specifically as part of the "move one of the Gates to threaten/kill the other Gods" plan.

Crisis21
2018-10-09, 10:28 AM
While we may not have a complete understanding of how the Crimson Mantle works, we do know a few things. For example, it automatically imparts the Divine half of the gate-moving ritual to its wearer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html), provided the wearer is a priest of the Dark One. Whatever other powers it may have, the Crimson Mantle seems to have been made specifically as part of the "move one of the Gates to threaten/kill the other Gods" plan.

Actually, it wasn't. In SoD's crayon segment (page 43 specifically), it is revealed that the Crimson Mantle was created after the rift in the elven lands was discovered by a goblin priest, but before it was sealed and became Lirian's Gate. As the Crimson Mantle predates the existence of the Gates (however narrowly), it cannot have been created specifically for the purpose of moving them. It was created specifically to see if there was a way the Dark One could manipulate the Snarl's existence in his favor though. It's implied that it allows the Dark One to bypass the general restrictions against operating in the domain of another god by working through the Crimson Mantle's wearer. Which might explain why spells from Redcloak would contain some of the Dark One's quiddity.


On an unrelated note, it's been a while since we last saw Jirix (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html). Who knows what he's been up to?

rbetieh
2018-10-09, 10:28 AM
"I ain't exactly a diplomat."

Oh, come on, Durkon. Diplomacy IS on the cleric's skill list. Pour in enough skill points and you won't even notice that Charisma penalty.

I hadn't even noticed the "ain't", is that normal for Durkons dialect?

Rollin
2018-10-09, 10:30 AM
I was getting seriously bummed about the world's chances until the last panel. Then I laughed out loud and knew we'd be fine.

It'll be a wild ride, and I can't wait to see all the twists and turns, but we'll be fine.

This is gonna be great.

I have been meaning to say how expressive and inspiring I found this post. Mind if I sig part of it?

BriarHobbit
2018-10-09, 10:31 AM
This is a ridiculously difficult task for poor Durkon. I find it curious that Thor does not mention the "world within a world." Perhaps, he does not know about it.

factotum
2018-10-09, 10:46 AM
This is a ridiculously difficult task for poor Durkon. I find it curious that Thor does not mention the "world within a world." Perhaps, he does not know about it.

I think it unlikely that someone who remembers every single one of the millions of worshippers he's ever had would miss something like that. More likely he's not bringing it up because it's not necessary for the task he's giving Durkon, and a god's got to keep *some* secrets.

GM_3826
2018-10-09, 10:58 AM
I think it unlikely that someone who remembers every single one of the millions of worshippers he's ever had would miss something like that. More likely he's not bringing it up because it's not necessary for the task he's giving Durkon, and a god's got to keep *some* secrets.

That seems fair enough, but at the same time we can't really deny the possibility. I've mentioned that I'm not sure the conversation is over; maybe that will be mentioned in one of the next strips.

Morty
2018-10-09, 11:00 AM
The world inside the rift is such a major discovery that Thor's reason for not mentioning it is probably significant. Likewise with his side of the Dark One's story about his people's purpose.

Jay R
2018-10-09, 11:17 AM
Given how difficult it was to try to get Belkar to accept the vampire Durkon, I can't wait to see Durkon try to convince him that they need an alliance with Redcloak.

Xel
2018-10-09, 11:33 AM
The world inside the rift is such a major discovery that Thor's reason for not mentioning it is probably significant. Likewise with his side of the Dark One's story about his people's purpose.

This is the detail that keeps bothering me. I don’t think there will be success with simply sealing the rifts. Given the twists, pervasive character building, and preference for multi-dimensional antagonists, I’m hoping for some character growth for the snarl. Maybe it has learned enough over the millennia to be reasoned with. Maybe it has simply learned enough to counter the imprisoning tactic with its own world.

Shining Wrath
2018-10-09, 11:48 AM
While we may not have a complete understanding of how the Crimson Mantle works, we do know a few things. For example, it automatically imparts the Divine half of the gate-moving ritual to its wearer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html), provided the wearer is a priest of the Dark One. Whatever other powers it may have, the Crimson Mantle seems to have been made specifically as part of the "move one of the Gates to threaten/kill the other Gods" plan.

I wonder if a god's permission is needed for someone to become their priest, which is different than the god granting them spells. If Durkon undergoes some ceremony that makes him an honorary priest of the Dark One (let us set aside how honored Durkon would feel), can he kill Redcloak, don the mantle, and perform the ritual?


1) "At least nine" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)

Order of the Stick
Xykon (Working with Redcloak)
Redcloak/Dark One (Manipulating Xykon)
IFCC
(Remnants of) Linear Guild (may count as lackeys of the IFCC)
Hel
(Former) Sapphire Guard? (allied with OotS)
Order of the Scribble?
Thor/Loki/Gods in favor of including the Dark One against the Snarl (allied with OotS?)
Tyr/Skadi/Sunna/Gods against including the Dark One
The Snarl?




2) Point


Interesting analysis.

If there are 9 sides, they probably correspond to the 9 alignments. IFCC covers *E, maybe V covers TN, Roy and Durkon are LG, and so on.


This is a ridiculously difficult task for poor Durkon. I find it curious that Thor does not mention the "world within a world." Perhaps, he does not know about it.

It is possible that Blackwing can see inside the rift but the gods cannot, because monochromatic quiddity experiences an effect similar to polarization as visible light passes through the rift.

GreatWyrmGold
2018-10-09, 11:58 AM
So, we need to get Redcloak to do the thing Thor needs him to do, against TDO's wishes.
What? No. Why would we do that? Why wouldn't we treat The Dark One as a god equal to any others, and worthy of the same respect we would give them?



I'm sure that tricking Redcloak into doing the thing Thor needs him to do is both possible and desirable!
...No.
First off, Thor says they need the quiddity of a ninth-level spell slot, which is different than "cast a 9th-level spell in or near the gate". I'm guessing they need the spell slot's energy to be spent on something reasonably specific, not just whatever.
Second, Redcloak would not take that well. If the Order tricked him into repairing all the gates, they'd reap the vengeance which only a near-epic CoDzilla can sow. And then Redcloak might ask Xykon to break some of the gates, just to spite them.
Third, y'all aren't treating Redcloak like a person who should be convinced, but an object who has to be carefully positioned to do what you want. The whole point of Redcloak and the goblin army is not treating monstrous races as objects. That would be kind of a craptastic way to end Redcloak's story, wouldn't it? "You fought to be treated as a person, but not you're being exploited by people who aren't, and they're rewarded with success."



...someone will have to pull out the same "convince a high priest to betray his god to patch up reality" with the new "Redcloak", who will serve a TDO who is wiser against the shceme, no less.
You're assuming that Redcloak isn't going to force negotiations which makes the deal favorable to The Dark One. Which is running back into the above issue, though not as strongly.
Remember, the OotS are not the only actors on this stage. Redcloak and The Dark One are equally-active agents.




realistic [...] realistic [...] the world we live in [...] realistic [...] real world [...] Realistically [...] unrealistic [...] realisticI thought about writing a complicated and unnecessarily long-winded reply but I think this gets the issue with your point across much more efficently.
No, but it does reveal a flaw with how you think about storytelling.
Even in a world of magic, dragons, and expository crayon-scribbles, people need to act like people or the story will ring hollow. That's the difference between Avatar: The Last Airbender and Shyamalan's The Last Airbender. (Well...one of the big ones.) So far, OotS's people have acted like people, which is why it's so popular, so we should expect that to continue.
However...by the same token, we shouldn't expect the OotS to suddenly go all Punisher because they can't convince Redcloak to do what they want peacefully. That doesn't seem plausible, both because there's a grand total of one member who would ever have been comfortable with that and because the OotS has convinced antagonistic people to work with them, multiple times. (As Thor noted, Durkon literally convinced a vampire out of existence.)
Not to mention that the OotS doesn't have to stick with a deal of "You discard your god's entire plan and fix the gates for nothing". Remember, The Dark One's plan was to move the Gates to the Outer Planes and negotiate with the other gods, holding the metaphorical gun to the gods' collective forehead. This could easily just be Redcloak switching from one gun to another.



...but Durkon is easily the member of the Order least likely to do that, between his general Lawfulness / trustworthiness, and his lack of the charisma necessary to Bluff people.
If it works when he's lying, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html) it should work when he's telling the truth. Right?



Well Durkon simply can say '' Redcloak, all your people and probably your God will be Snarl food if you don't help close those rifts. '' And I do believe Redcloak is smarter than letting a petty power grab that will eventually destroy everything, along with his people, happen. If not, well then he and his God deserve their fate.
Jokes aside, if things get that dire, the Gates will be fixed. But Redcloak literally only agreeing because he'd die if he didn't doesn't seem as narratively satisfying as The Dark One finally getting his grievances addressed, and the problem only being solved when people start treating goblinoids as people.



If I had to guess what could possibly turn Redcloak, I'd have to say that this is where Jirix squishing the cockroach (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) comes into play. Redcloak gave Azure City to the goblins because he wants to prove that they are just as capable of creating and maintaining civilization as any of the sentient races; if it's somehow revealed to Redcloak that Jirix went Full Self-Destructive Dictator immediately after Xykon and he disappeared, that might put just enough doubt in his mind to compromise--he would still have plenty of excuses for the goblins, but he might get just enough doubt to think that maybe a more cooperative approach to sealing the rifts is necessary.
Squashing a bug is not the same as going full Fuhrer. Especially when the bug is as mouth-offy as that one.
Besides, one of the core themes of OotS is that no race is inherently more or less good/worthy than another. Again, it would narratively suck to throw that out at the last minute.



I wonder if a god's permission is needed for someone to become their priest, which is different than the god granting them spells. If Durkon undergoes some ceremony that makes him an honorary priest of the Dark One (let us set aside how honored Durkon would feel), can he kill Redcloak, don the mantle, and perform the ritual?
No. Even ignoring how ridiculous the idea of such a ceremony is (aside from an ally of TDO's clergy being inducted, which wouldn't apply to someone with such a plan), Thor doesn't need someone who says they're The Dark One's priest giving divine energy, he specifically needs The Dark One's divine energy—which TDO would be reluctant to give to someone who just killed his high priest and only converted in an attempt to subvert his plans.
Also, **** move. **** move which goes against one of the longest-running themes in the comic, no less.



Sigh..after so many eons and so many worlds built and destroyed by the Snarl, the Gods haven't learned yet to play along. That's the true tragedy.
And mortals have to clean up the mess left by the gods' squabbles. As usual.



That's also canon in the Norse religion; both were sons of Odin, but by different mothers.
The version I'm familiar with has Loki be genetically unrelated to either, but Odin's "blood-brother". But we all know mythology has worse continuity than Hawkman.



It's great to see a lot of information about OOTS theology. So, I am curious how various devilfolk falls into it. Are evil gods in charge of hell(s)? Tiamat wasn't in charge of IFCC, but she was somewhat working with them. Are there some sort of archdevils in charge? Do they have colours? Were they created by the gods? Did they had a hand in creating the worlds?
I am not sure how it works in D&D and I am not sure how it's working here.
D&D cosmology makes mythology look internally-consistent.
I'm also curious how outsiders &c fit into OotS theology...including good outsiders. Why do we never hear about archon princes or eladrin lords, plotting to fight the forces of darkness or whatever? Good isn't one big happy family, you know.



...and a god's got to keep *some* secrets.
While I agree with your conclusion, I disagree with the idea that a god "has got to" keep secrets. Quite heavily, in fact! It goes against one of my fundamental beliefs about how people in power should act, i.e. the importance of transparency to developing (and earning) trust. I know gods aren't the same as kings, but I have not seen any convincing argument that we should hold them to different standards (beyond the more exacting ones allowed by gods' greater power).



No. This is not Steven Universe.
Even in Steven Universe, colors don't work that way. Amethyst isn't a fusion, for instance.



"I ain't exactly a diplomat."
Oh, come on, Durkon. Diplomacy IS on the cleric's skill list. Pour in enough skill points and you won't even notice that Charisma penalty.
Oh, like he has the skill points to spend. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0134.html)



How many "sides" are there in this conflict, anyway?
Given that the fate of the world (and who gains or retains power afterwards) is at stake...all of them.

Crisis21
2018-10-09, 12:13 PM
If there are 9 sides, they probably correspond to the 9 alignments. IFCC covers *E, maybe V covers TN, Roy and Durkon are LG, and so on.


Unlikely. 'Side' in this instance is every group with its own agenda concerning the Gates (I'd have included Tarquin and company in the list, but they didn't have an agenda regarding the Gates when that comic was posted). It is entirely possible for two or more sides to have overlapping alignments without having overlapping agendas.



The Order's agenda is constantly evolving as more about the situation is revealed, but can be summed up as 'save the world'.
Xykon's agenda is 'rule the world'.
Redcloak/Dark One's agenda is 'blackmail the gods to improve the lives of goblins'.
The IFCC's agenda is 'pointless violent conflict'.
The Linear Guild's agenda was 'we can totally hijack someone else's plan for this for our own purposes... probably... maybe...' up until Nale got offed.
Hel's agenda is 'take advantage of the other gods' panic over the Snarl to become queen of the Northern pantheon'.
The (former) Sapphire Guard's agenda (as well as that of any other legacy/remnants of the Order of the Scribble) is 'defend the Gates/don't let them fall into Evil hands'. Worth noting that thanks to the fracture of the Order of the Scribble they have been and still are effectively in the dark about any other Scribble remnants/legacies that may still be out there.
Thor's (plus any other gods wanting to work with the Dark One) agenda appears to be 'get the Dark One on board with sealing the Snarl back up'.
Miscellaneous gods opposed to working with the Dark One appear to have an agenda of 'let's just keep on with the same old same old until a new god arises whose interests better align with our own and leave this Dark One to rot'.
The Snarl's agenda, if any, has so far been assumed to be 'escape and wreak havoc on the gods' creation' but in truth hasn't been revealed.


That's at least ten agendas that involve the Gates in some way or another - even if only peripherally - with several having multiple alignments among those involved in seeking them. Your own opinion on which of these count as a proper side in the conflict may differ from mine (and you may include sides that I didn't).

woweedd
2018-10-09, 12:17 PM
I think it unlikely that someone who remembers every single one of the millions of worshippers he's ever had would miss something like that. More likely he's not bringing it up because it's not necessary for the task he's giving Durkon, and a god's got to keep *some* secrets.
I mean, the Gods can't see inside the rifts, if I remember correctly.

Jasdoif
2018-10-09, 12:18 PM
Third, y'all aren't treating Redcloak like a person who should be convinced, but an object who has to be carefully positioned to do what you want.Yeah, it's weird how many posts here suggest coercing/tricking/replacing Redcloak as a valid way to "persuade" Redcloak. Isn't that, like, the opposite of that?

Shining Wrath
2018-10-09, 12:20 PM
If the Crimson Mantle grants any priest of the Dark One the power to cast the ritual, then becoming a priest of the Dark One though Haley-quality subterfuge and donning the Mantle gives anyone who does (not necessarily Durkon) the power. In fact, that might be a plot twist ... MitD eats Redcloak, OotS despairs, and then Haley realizes that if she can trick someone into ordaining her as a priest, she can don the Mantle and use it as she sees fit.

Crisis21
2018-10-09, 12:25 PM
If the Crimson Mantle grants any priest of the Dark One the power to cast the ritual, then becoming a priest of the Dark One though Haley-quality subterfuge and donning the Mantle gives anyone who does (not necessarily Durkon) the power. In fact, that might be a plot twist ... MitD eats Redcloak, OotS despairs, and then Haley realizes that if she can trick someone into ordaining her as a priest, she can don the Mantle and use it as she sees fit.

Point 1) I think the Dark One might take exception to that.

Point 2) Thor explicitly stated that a 9th-level spell slot was needed, meaning the cleric in question needs to have 9th-level spell slots.

Point 3) To gain the knowledge inherent in the Crimson Mantle, the cleric who dons it must both follow the Dark One and be a goblin.

Linneris
2018-10-09, 12:36 PM
Notably, Haley wasn't sure (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) if there were any 17th-level clerics in the world apart from Redcloak, so if Redcloak dies, the Dark One might simply not have any clerics left capable of casting a 9th-level spell.

hamishspence
2018-10-09, 12:43 PM
Notably, Haley wasn't sure (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) if there were any 17th-level clerics in the world apart from Redcloak, so if Redcloak dies, the Dark One might simply not have any clerics left capable of casting a 9th-level spell.

Given that there's a strong implication that Redcloak is casting 9th level spells for the first time here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html

Belkar's guess was slightly out - at the time he made it, Redcloak wasn't quite 17th level.

Resileaf
2018-10-09, 12:58 PM
I am not looking forward to seeing how the order deals with implosion when they try to meet with Redcloak.

Snails
2018-10-09, 01:00 PM
Using "bardic skills", I think it is unlikely that Thor's proposal will pan out.

However, it is dramatically important for Durkon's growth, and for Redcloak's. While readers of Start of Darkness may be satisfied they understand Redcloak, it is important for Redcloak to offered another path within the final chapters. Redcloak has agency and negotiating power, and he should be shown making a clear choice of his path.

Crisis21
2018-10-09, 01:03 PM
I am not looking forward to seeing how the order deals with implosion when they try to meet with Redcloak.

The Order probably has higher Fort saves than those elves did.

Worldsong
2018-10-09, 01:06 PM
What? No. Why would we do that? Why wouldn't we treat The Dark One as a god equal to any others, and worthy of the same respect we would give them?



...No.
First off, Thor says they need the quiddity of a ninth-level spell slot, which is different than "cast a 9th-level spell in or near the gate". I'm guessing they need the spell slot's energy to be spent on something reasonably specific, not just whatever.
Second, Redcloak would not take that well. If the Order tricked him into repairing all the gates, they'd reap the vengeance which only a near-epic CoDzilla can sow. And then Redcloak might ask Xykon to break some of the gates, just to spite them.
Third, y'all aren't treating Redcloak like a person who should be convinced, but an object who has to be carefully positioned to do what you want. The whole point of Redcloak and the goblin army is not treating monstrous races as objects. That would be kind of a craptastic way to end Redcloak's story, wouldn't it? "You fought to be treated as a person, but not you're being exploited by people who aren't, and they're rewarded with success."



You're assuming that Redcloak isn't going to force negotiations which makes the deal favorable to The Dark One. Which is running back into the above issue, though not as strongly.
Remember, the OotS are not the only actors on this stage. Redcloak and The Dark One are equally-active agents.



No, but it does reveal a flaw with how you think about storytelling.
Even in a world of magic, dragons, and expository crayon-scribbles, people need to act like people or the story will ring hollow. That's the difference between Avatar: The Last Airbender and Shyamalan's The Last Airbender. (Well...one of the big ones.) So far, OotS's people have acted like people, which is why it's so popular, so we should expect that to continue.
However...by the same token, we shouldn't expect the OotS to suddenly go all Punisher because they can't convince Redcloak to do what they want peacefully. That doesn't seem plausible, both because there's a grand total of one member who would ever have been comfortable with that and because the OotS has convinced antagonistic people to work with them, multiple times. (As Thor noted, Durkon literally convinced a vampire out of existence.)
Not to mention that the OotS doesn't have to stick with a deal of "You discard your god's entire plan and fix the gates for nothing". Remember, The Dark One's plan was to move the Gates to the Outer Planes and negotiate with the other gods, holding the metaphorical gun to the gods' collective forehead. This could easily just be Redcloak switching from one gun to another.



If it works when he's lying, (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html) it should work when he's telling the truth. Right?



Jokes aside, if things get that dire, the Gates will be fixed. But Redcloak literally only agreeing because he'd die if he didn't doesn't seem as narratively satisfying as The Dark One finally getting his grievances addressed, and the problem only being solved when people start treating goblinoids as people.



Squashing a bug is not the same as going full Fuhrer. Especially when the bug is as mouth-offy as that one.
Besides, one of the core themes of OotS is that no race is inherently more or less good/worthy than another. Again, it would narratively suck to throw that out at the last minute.



No. Even ignoring how ridiculous the idea of such a ceremony is (aside from an ally of TDO's clergy being inducted, which wouldn't apply to someone with such a plan), Thor doesn't need someone who says they're The Dark One's priest giving divine energy, he specifically needs The Dark One's divine energy—which TDO would be reluctant to give to someone who just killed his high priest and only converted in an attempt to subvert his plans.
Also, **** move. **** move which goes against one of the longest-running themes in the comic, no less.
Take my upvotes.

Seriously, take them.

I'm guessing that a lot of people have already decided that Redcloak is a lost cause or just plain dislike him, but how everyone's reaction seems to be either "How can we deceive/manipulate Redcloak" or even "How can we replace Redcloak" is baffling to read when the comic seems to be doing its utmost best to point in the direction of "We now have to treat Redcloak like a person and convince him to help us save the world."

I thought the entire point of SoD was to show two things:

Xykon was always evil and can't be redeemed or seen as misunderstood
Redcloak ISN'T like Xykon, he may be a villain but he's at least still a person

Snails
2018-10-09, 01:07 PM
1) "At least nine" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0548.html)

Order of the Stick
Xykon (Working with Redcloak)
Redcloak/Dark One (Manipulating Xykon)
IFCC
(Remnants of) Linear Guild (may count as lackeys of the IFCC)
Hel
(Former) Sapphire Guard? (allied with OotS)
Order of the Scribble?
Thor/Loki/Gods in favor of including the Dark One against the Snarl (allied with OotS?)
Tyr/Skadi/Sunna/Gods against including the Dark One
The Snarl?


I strongly believe that nine sides is a joke, playing on the 3x3 different D&D alignments. What the demon roach is really saying is that everyone is in this game whether they know it or not. And the godsmoot has proven such true -- everyone on this planet could have been killed a few days ago because of this Gate chase, and avoidance/disinterest in Xykon would have been no protection.

So, no, counting up different "factions" will tell you nothing. The joke has been played out.

Crisis21
2018-10-09, 01:13 PM
I strongly believe that nine sides is a joke, playing on the 3x3 different D&D alignments. What the demon roach is really saying is that everyone is in this game whether they know it or not. And the godsmoot has proven such true -- everyone on this planet could have been killed a few days ago because of this Gate chase, and avoidance/disinterest in Xykon would have been no protection.

So, no, counting up different "factions" will tell you nothing. The joke has been played out.

And I'm pretty sure it isn't just a joke given that a) the roach is shushed by his fellow because 'they (i.e. we, the readers) don't know about some of them yet' and b) Rich at one point explicitly stated that upcoming comics would reveal one of those (at least) nine sides (this was before Hel's agenda was revealed).

It seems pretty clear to me that the line was meant to indicate that there are many factions with a vested interest in how the scenario with the Gates plays out, and we have seen that this is exactly the case.

Resileaf
2018-10-09, 01:17 PM
The Order probably has higher Fort saves than those elves did.

Roy, yes. Durkon, most likely. Belkar, could go either way. Elan, Haley and V? Much more doubtful. V was very adamant that a symbol of death would waste either of those three without problem. Their only saving grace is the low range of that spell.

Particle_Man
2018-10-09, 01:32 PM
I wonder if Durkon and Redcloak could find common ground in comparing how goblins have it with how dwarves due to the bet have it.

I also wonder what TDO’s and Redcloak’s terms are. I think the other gods should just give in on all of them. Given that they have a country and that the highest level cleric in the world is a goblin, they are not really a cannon fodder race anyhow, at least no more than human bandits.

FlawedParadigm
2018-10-09, 01:50 PM
Take my upvotes.

Seriously, take them.

I'm guessing that a lot of people have already decided that Redcloak is a lost cause or just plain dislike him, but how everyone's reaction seems to be either "How can we deceive/manipulate Redcloak" or even "How can we replace Redcloak" is baffling to read when the comic seems to be doing its utmost best to point in the direction of "We now have to treat Redcloak like a person and convince him to help us save the world."

I thought the entire point of SoD was to show two things:

Xykon was always evil and can't be redeemed or seen as misunderstood
Redcloak ISN'T like Xykon, he may be a villain but he's at least still a person


Eh. I did a whole thread a few months back predicted the Order would eventually want/need to work with RC just on the basis that, if the Order got to know RC, most/all of them would champion his desired social justice in the multiverse because it's completely fair to want what he wants. It was largely ridiculed prior to the quiddity thing coming up, so you're not going to find a lot of people who have expressed positive thoughts on the topic previously. The story's going to have to move more in that direction to close the gap between the current narrative and the proposed narrative before people begin to grasp how it can/will take shape.

I'd just thought about if the lot of them sat down for drinks or whatever and tried to understand each other sans Xykon, they'd find a fair whack of common ground. Roy's all about social justice and underdogs, he'd be completely on board with RC's desires, just not necessarily his means of achieving them to this point. Haley wouldn't be much different. V could see it as partial atonement by making the world a better place and could share experiences about using less violence to achieve goals. Elan's glad to convince people to be better people and would find RC's cause narratively satisfying. Belkar may or may not care. He's probably a wash on this one aside from perhaps the angle of lashing out against oppressors. Durkon might have to suppress whatever racial hatred of goblinoids he has (I don't recall it actually coming up in strip aside from the gag-a-day strip where he forgot his combat bonuses) but he'd understand carrying out a divine mission although again, disagreeing with RC's methods.

The main obstacle is Xykon. He has every reason to be against any of this, so he must needs be removed/nullified first for there to probably even be a chance of any dialogue, and that alone may or may not help since it's RC who even remembers the group as a recurring threat in the first place and he's not going to forget them after the last time he was disallowed from slaughtering them at their nadir.

Rrmcklin
2018-10-09, 02:12 PM
This is the detail that keeps bothering me. I don’t think there will be success with simply sealing the rifts. Given the twists, pervasive character building, and preference for multi-dimensional antagonists, I’m hoping for some character growth for the snarl. Maybe it has learned enough over the millennia to be reasoned with. Maybe it has simply learned enough to counter the imprisoning tactic with its own world.

That would require the Snarl to be a character and antagonist at all. But as Rich has said, it's basically a MacGuffin.

And not for nothing, but both of your suggestions sound... really anticlimactic and narratively unsatisfying.

Worldsong
2018-10-09, 02:14 PM
Eh. I did a whole thread a few months back predicted the Order would eventually want/need to work with RC just on the basis that, if the Order got to know RC, most/all of them would champion his desired social justice in the multiverse because it's completely fair to want what he wants. It was largely ridiculed prior to the quiddity thing coming up, so you're not going to find a lot of people who have expressed positive thoughts on the topic previously. The story's going to have to move more in that direction to close the gap between the current narrative and the proposed narrative before people begin to grasp how it can/will take shape.

I'd just thought about if the lot of them sat down for drinks or whatever and tried to understand each other sans Xykon, they'd find a fair whack of common ground. Roy's all about social justice and underdogs, he'd be completely on board with RC's desires, just not necessarily his means of achieving them to this point. Haley wouldn't be much different. V could see it as partial atonement by making the world a better place and could share experiences about using less violence to achieve goals. Elan's glad to convince people to be better people and would find RC's cause narratively satisfying. Belkar may or may not care. He's probably a wash on this one aside from perhaps the angle of lashing out against oppressors. Durkon might have to suppress whatever racial hatred of goblinoids he has (I don't recall it actually coming up in strip aside from the gag-a-day strip where he forgot his combat bonuses) but he'd understand carrying out a divine mission although again, disagreeing with RC's methods.

The main obstacle is Xykon. He has every reason to be against any of this, so he must needs be removed/nullified first for there to probably even be a chance of any dialogue, and that alone may or may not help since it's RC who even remembers the group as a recurring threat in the first place and he's not going to forget them after the last time he was disallowed from slaughtering them at their nadir.

I admit that the 'everyone' thing was a hyperbole.

That said I agree that at least Vaarsuvius and Redcloak would probably get along if they met under non-hostile circumstances. They're both pretty serious people who are burdened with having done horrible things but who soldier on nonetheless.

nmphuong91
2018-10-09, 02:41 PM
Everyone seems so pessimistic about the prospect of convincing Redcloak. I suggest hammer diplomacy, perhaps Durkon would have higher chance to success that way.

Shining Wrath
2018-10-09, 02:59 PM
The Order probably has higher Fort saves than those elves did.


Roy, yes. Durkon, most likely. Belkar, could go either way. Elan, Haley and V? Much more doubtful. V was very adamant that a symbol of death would waste either of those three without problem. Their only saving grace is the low range of that spell.

I believe the victim of Implosion was a Paladin, who typically have good Constitution and Fort saves. See: O Chul, who admittedly had fighter levels before Paladin, but whose Fort saves rival a Tarrasque's.

woweedd
2018-10-09, 03:02 PM
I believe the victim of Implosion was a Paladin, who typically have good Constitution and Fort saves. See: O Chul, who admittedly had fighter levels before Paladin, but whose Fort saves rival a Tarrasque's.
The victims were two Elves, most likely Rangers. One of them was definitely NOT a Paladin, given his extreme racism.

Resileaf
2018-10-09, 03:08 PM
I believe the victim of Implosion was a Paladin, who typically have good Constitution and Fort saves. See: O Chul, who admittedly had fighter levels before Paladin, but whose Fort saves rival a Tarrasque's.

The paladin you're thinking about was crushed to death by a summoned elemental, not killed by implosion. The two elves who died to implosion were not paladins.

Kish
2018-10-09, 03:08 PM
I think it's real unlikely that Team Peregrine was anywhere near the Order's level. Which is one or two levels behind Redcloak at this point.

Ten gold says Redcloak will never successfully Implode Roy.

Nimelennar
2018-10-09, 03:55 PM
So, by "one ninth-level spell slot," does Thor mean that this will permanently reduce the number of ninth-level spells Redcloak can cast in a day by one?

Lethologica
2018-10-09, 03:57 PM
So, by "one ninth-level spell slot," does Thor mean that this will permanently reduce the number of ninth-level spells Redcloak can cast in a day by one?
They need channeled energy, not a sacrifice, so probably not.

Worldsong
2018-10-09, 04:01 PM
I think it just means 'enough power for it to require a ninth level spell slot to cast it.'

Linneris
2018-10-09, 04:06 PM
I interpret that as requiring Redcloak to spend one ninth level slot on a custom spell that the Dark One would provide for the specific task of restoring the Gates - similarly to how the high priests at the Godsmoot presumably had to spend a slot to prepare Summon Proxy.

Angelalex242
2018-10-09, 04:50 PM
Ya know...I think Rich's message to the world is ultimately 'goblins are people too.' For this to go most smoothly, Redcloak should be convinced by Durkon to turn on Xykon (Who just represents death) and save the world.

Because ya know, hearing a GOBLIN helped (and was even necessary) to save the world would probably do wonders for the status of goblins in the world. Particularly if clerics get word from their superiors to spread the news that goblins are now a 'PC race.'

GreatWyrmGold
2018-10-09, 04:52 PM
I wonder if Durkon and Redcloak could find common ground in comparing how goblins have it with how dwarves due to the bet have it.
It's kind of an apples-and-moldy-oranges situation, but they're both fruit. Fruitful negotiations require some kind of common ground, and this is as good a place to start as any.


I also wonder what TDO’s and Redcloak’s terms are. I think the other gods should just give in on all of them. Given that they have a country and that the highest level cleric in the world is a goblin, they are not really a cannon fodder race anyhow, at least no more than human bandits.
I'd be fine with them negotiating some kind of deal as long as they, you know, negotiated. Treated The Dark One like a peer, not like a devil they're forced to deal with.



I'd just thought about if the lot of them sat down for drinks or whatever and tried to understand each other sans Xykon, they'd find a fair whack of common ground. Roy's all about social justice and underdogs, he'd be completely on board with RC's desires, just not necessarily his means of achieving them to this point...V could see it as partial atonement by making the world a better place and could share experiences about using less violence to achieve goals...Durkon might have to suppress whatever racial hatred of goblinoids he has (I don't recall it actually coming up in strip aside from the gag-a-day strip where he forgot his combat bonuses) but he'd understand carrying out a divine mission although again, disagreeing with RC's methods.
I'm not sure if I'd use the words "social justice" to describe Roy's specific goals, but he'd certainly be in favor of it. It makes sense that Vaarsivius would (partly) atone for their actions, most notably the thoughtless slaughter of an "evil" race, by trying to stop the thoughtless slaughter of an "evil" race. I'm inclined to think that any "racial hatred" of goblins which hasn't come up in any previous goblin-including arc will probably not rear its head here.
...I don't have anything to add about the others.



Everyone seems so pessimistic about the prospect of convincing Redcloak. I suggest hammer diplomacy, perhaps Durkon would have higher chance to success that way.
How would that help anything? Forget themes of inclusivity, forget treating goblins as agents not objects, forget how this clashes with the personalities of our heroes—how would hitting Redcloak with a hammer help fix the Gates?

Kish
2018-10-09, 06:21 PM
How would that help anything? Forget themes of inclusivity, forget treating goblins as agents not objects, forget how this clashes with the personalities of our heroes—how would hitting Redcloak with a hammer help fix the Gates?
I suspect a lot of people commenting here are looking at it from the standpoint of: It's unfair to expect the heroes to not be able to solve all their problems by beating the asterisks out of the villains. Nothing related to D&D could ever have more moral complexity than one of the old Westerns that introduced the concept of white and black hats as morality markers, right?

DaggerPen
2018-10-09, 06:29 PM
I would not be at all surprised if the Redcloak encounter was resolved by Redcloak being unwilling to drop hostilities until beaten in a fair fight and spared, at which point he realizes the sincerity of the offer. I also would not be surprised if Redcloak rejects the offer due to being unable to move past how much he's sunk into the Plan and the Order has to figure something else out. However, I would be VERY surprised if the solution involved tricking Redcloak into casting a 9th level spell slot. This is a problem that won't be solved without some significant character development involving Redcloak.

I had been considering the idea that Redcloak would reject it and they'd have to go through Jirix instead before the most recent comic, but now that's obviously off the table. I don't think TDO has ever had any cleric before who reached Redcloak's current level, and Jirix definitely isn't getting there anytime soon. I think that either it's legitimately convincing Redcloak or it's something else entirely, and lean towards the former. I highly doubt we'll see this resolved without improving the lot of goblins in general.

Rrmcklin
2018-10-09, 06:31 PM
I suspect a lot of people commenting here are looking at it from the standpoint of: It's unfair to expect the heroes to not be able to solve all their problems by beating the asterisks out of the villains. Nothing related to D&D could ever have more moral complexity than one of the old Westerns that introduced the concept of white and black hats as morality markers, right?

While I agree with what you've said, I also think there's a bit of a problem with the assumption of "If Redcloak isn't redeemed, that means the goblins as a whole don't deserve a better lot in life." which it seems to me some people are implying.

talonschild
2018-10-09, 06:32 PM
I gotta admit - the first thing I thought when I saw the title was "hey, that was a Babylon 5 episode".

Riftwolf
2018-10-09, 06:50 PM
How does Durkon start diplomatic negotiations?
With one spell, twenty five words, and no save.

DaggerPen
2018-10-09, 07:07 PM
This is not the first time that Dukon Sending to Redcloak has been proposed, but seeing it this time around suddenly majorly reminds me of Merle Parleying with John again and again and again.

FlawedParadigm
2018-10-09, 07:22 PM
I'm not sure if I'd use the words "social justice" to describe Roy's specific goals, but he'd certainly be in favor of it. It makes sense that Vaarsivius would (partly) atone for their actions, most notably the thoughtless slaughter of an "evil" race, by trying to stop the thoughtless slaughter of an "evil" race. I'm inclined to think that any "racial hatred" of goblins which hasn't come up in any previous goblin-including arc will probably not rear its head here.
...I don't have anything to add about the others.

No, no. Social justice is REDCLOAK'S goal. I'm just saying Roy would be cool with that since he's all for underdog classes being treated better, not discriminating against religions, races, or genders, et cetera. Social justice isn't a passion of his, but it's something he goes along with easily. The last big hurdle I see for Roy down that alley is treating NPCs more like real people. :p

Liquor Box
2018-10-09, 07:41 PM
I suspect a lot of people commenting here are looking at it from the standpoint of: It's unfair to expect the heroes to not be able to solve all their problems by beating the asterisks out of the villains. Nothing related to D&D could ever have more moral complexity than one of the old Westerns that introduced the concept of white and black hats as morality markers, right?

On the contrary, giving Redcloak a beating to make him save the world removes the heroes white hat and sees them don a grey one. It is the more morally complex path.

Having the heroes simply make a diplomacy role to win Redcloak over avoids all that complexity, besides being unrealistic.

Liquor Box
2018-10-09, 07:50 PM
No, no. Social justice is REDCLOAK'S goal. I'm just saying Roy would be cool with that since he's all for underdog classes being treated better, not discriminating against religions, races, or genders, et cetera. Social justice isn't a passion of his, but it's something he goes along with easily. The last big hurdle I see for Roy down that alley is treating NPCs more like real people. :p

Is it? I think it is a bit of a leap to say that a "a series of concessions" from the gods to goblins (which is what Redcloak wants), to Redcloak wanting an outcome that would universally being accepted as socially just. Or is there something I am missing?

GM_3826
2018-10-09, 07:51 PM
Let's be honest here. Redcloak does not want social justice. He wants justice for goblins, and doesn't really care about justice for other oppressed minorities.

Riarra
2018-10-09, 08:10 PM
This is not the first time that Dukon Sending to Redcloak has been proposed, but seeing it this time around suddenly majorly reminds me of Merle Parleying with John again and again and again.

I know I've seen a proposed TAZ/OOTS crossover where that is exactly what Merle gets to do with Redcloak.

Erloas
2018-10-09, 08:13 PM
I'm firmly of the camp that anyone thinks this is something that can be fought its way out of hasn't been reading the same comic that I have.
Thinking back on it, I don't think I can pin any major event that was solved with just fists/fireballs/stabbing. In fact every attempt that has taken that as it's primary path has made things worse rather than better. The OotS pretty much hasn't bet anything bigger than a random encounter with just combat. The Snarl was caused by straight conflict, the challenges of working with TDO was made that much worse by fighting, V's "kill first worry about the rest later" almost destroyed V's mind, Roy's death was caused by sword first diplomacy, as was Miko. O'Chul's did so much specifically by not going that route.

I also think that of all of the villians I've seen in almost any setting, Redcloak is the one to have the *wisdom* to see the advantages of working together and the personal experience to see that killing doesn't fix all problems.

FlawedParadigm
2018-10-09, 08:20 PM
Is it? I think it is a bit of a leap to say that a "a series of concessions" from the gods to goblins (which is what Redcloak wants), to Redcloak wanting an outcome that would universally being accepted as socially just. Or is there something I am missing?

Well, he's interested in social justice for his own people. He's still evil and selfish enough to not care for ogres, trolls, flumphs, or anyone else. As villains go, "for my people" is a better motivation than most. Although at this point it has heavy shades of

"I...I cannot fail."

Hmm. Why does that sound familiar?

DaggerPen
2018-10-09, 08:25 PM
Re: the possibility of this ending in a fight with Redcloak, I think there are two "problem is solved by fighting" scenarios which require distinguishing here:

1. The Order tries to bargain with Redcloak, who doesn't trust them for a second and forces combat, possibly alongside Xykon. The Order defeats him, and when Redcloak spits at them to do their worst, they spare him and reiterate the offer, proving their sincerity and the genuine nature of the offer.
2. The Order fights Redcloak, and, with him defeated, forces him at swordpoint to do the thing.

Maybe it's just the number of video games that have made me do this sort of thing, but I consider scenario 1 totally fair game and in line with OOTS's morals while also getting to do a cool climactic battle scene. I consider scenario 2 wildly unlikely.

Liquor Box
2018-10-09, 08:49 PM
Well, he's interested in social justice for his own people. He's still evil and selfish enough to not care for ogres, trolls, flumphs, or anyone else. As villains go, "for my people" is a better motivation than most. Although at this point it has heavy shades of

"I...I cannot fail."

Hmm. Why does that sound familiar?

He's interested in gaining advantages for his people. Depending on precisely which concessions it is that he wants from the gods, I'm not sure that equals social justice (even putting aside the issue of other races). I'm not sure what concessions the gods would give goblins that would accord with social justice, but I suppose it is possible????

I don't think that doing something on behalf of a "your people" is necessarily a good motivation. Some pretty evil organisations purported to act for the good of a particular race.

Gift Jeraff
2018-10-09, 09:20 PM
Interesting that Tiamat being an enemy of the other Western Gods was once brought up by someone (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?239187-Questions-on-the-OotS-religion&p=13053125) (in regards to why she has an Oracle permanently located in Southern territory) and Rich responded with "no comment." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?239187-Questions-on-the-OotS-religion&p=13053125#20) Considering Sunken Valley's relative proximity to Hobgoblin City, perhaps the Oracle was intended to be a gift to the Dark One to patch things up after he dropped out of the private chat group?

zimmerwald1915
2018-10-09, 09:35 PM
I think it's real unlikely that Team Peregrine was anywhere near the Order's level. Which is one or two levels behind Redcloak at this point.

Ten gold says Redcloak will never successfully Implode Roy.
Vaarsuvius or Elan, however. . .

We can but dream.

Rynael
2018-10-09, 09:46 PM
Vaarsuvius or Elan, however. . .

We can but dream.

I never thought I would see someone name those two characters in the same breath.

Except maybe for contrast. Or maybe as part of the list, "members of the Order of the Stick."

woweedd
2018-10-09, 10:10 PM
I never thought I would see someone name those two characters in the same breath.

Except maybe for contrast. Or maybe as part of the list, "members of the Order of the Stick."
You are talking to Zimmer.

Kish
2018-10-09, 10:43 PM
They both have bad Fortitude saves and thus might get killed by Implosion.

That said, I don't know what Zimmer apparently now has against Elan.

DaggerPen
2018-10-09, 10:43 PM
Vaarsuvius or Elan, however. . .

We can but dream.

I understand the Vaarsuvius opinion, but why is Elan on the "we can but dream" list?

godsflunky
2018-10-09, 11:06 PM
I've been hoping for a Redcloak/Order team-up for a long time now, and I think I know how it'll go:

It'll be the Monster in the Dark.

The MitD is the only creature in the whole strip who has a reason to like both sides, and a reason to want both of them to survive and succeed. Partly it's past friendship -- however distorted his friendship with Redcloak and Xykon has been. Partly it's his general good nature. Partly it's his character growth. He's downright clever now, when he wants to be. He can see both sides and sympathize with both sides and also see the holes in both sides.

Moreover, the MitD is big enough and strong enough that none of the various parties involved can just zap him when he tries to negotiate. There's a hilarious scene in The Dresden Files in which (mild spoilers) Dresden's enormous dog Mouse winds up playing peacemaker between two fierce enemies by simply sitting on them. The MitD is sufficiently a force to be reckoned with that he can do the same. A MitD-enforced truce could give Durkon the time he needs to persuade Redcloak. He might also provide some leverage, forceful or philosophical, to Durkon's argument.

(There's also the hint that the MitD knows about the Astral Plane, and therefore perhaps more, although I don't think it'll come to much.)

And lastly, it would be a grand conclusion to the Monster's character arc.




I have been meaning to say how expressive and inspiring I found this post. Mind if I sig part of it?

If you're still reading this thread: I'd be honored! I've never been sig'd before.

Ruck
2018-10-09, 11:36 PM
They both have bad Fortitude saves and thus might get killed by Implosion.

That said, I don't know what Zimmer apparently now has against Elan.

Probably that his innate goodness grinds against Zimmer's "living things are universally awful" worldview.


On the contrary, giving Redcloak a beating to make him save the world removes the heroes white hat and sees them don a grey one. It is the more morally complex path.

Having the heroes simply make a diplomacy role to win Redcloak over avoids all that complexity, besides being unrealistic.

Literally everything in the game of Dungeons and Dragons is unrealistic when you reduce it to "winning a dice roll."

Also, this is not a game of Dungeons and Dragons.


Interesting that Tiamat being an enemy of the other Western Gods was once brought up by someone (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?239187-Questions-on-the-OotS-religion&p=13053125) (in regards to why she has an Oracle permanently located in Southern territory) and Rich responded with "no comment." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?239187-Questions-on-the-OotS-religion&p=13053125#20) Considering Sunken Valley's relative proximity to Hobgoblin City, perhaps the Oracle was intended to be a gift to the Dark One to patch things up after he dropped out of the private chat group?

I don't know if I'd jump to that conclusion, but the "no comment" is certainly very interesting in light of how Tiamat might have a role yet to play, as the only apparent god who still keeps in touch with the Dark One.

In fact, here's an interesting post in that thread:


I've kind of taken the way the Lizardfolk and the Kobolds in OOTS are treated as running contrary to the Dark One's story and therefore reason to suspect the Dark One's claims.

That or he tries to cultivate a victim complex while the Lizardfolk and Kobolds of the Western Continent said "screw that" and actually tried to make things better for themselves without resorting to potential omnicide.

Yeah-- the fact that kobolds and lizardfolk were probably created to the same purpose goblins were, yet don't have their grievances, could be a reason to be suspicious of the Dark One's motives. It could also be that Tiamat is helping the Dark One because she sees this as an opportunity to similarly improve the fortunes of kobolds and lizardfolk, or they have an already-established deal in place. Or it could be something else I haven't considered.

Liquor Box
2018-10-09, 11:58 PM
Literally everything in the game of Dungeons and Dragons is unrealistic when you reduce it to "winning a dice roll."

Also, this is not a game of Dungeons and Dragons.


Fair comment.

My problem with persuasion is that it is often incredibly hard to persuade a person (particularly a person in a position of leadership like Reddy) that their ideological inclinations and goals are wrong at they should instead take action against them. i think it far more realistic that you could coerce/blackmail a person into doing a thing.

Of lessor concern is my feeling that simply having the Order persuade Redcloak that he should join them just seems like a fairytale way of ending a comic that has been willing to approach grey morality in the past.

Crisis21
2018-10-10, 12:00 AM
I just had a thought: What if the thing that ultimately does Belkar in is saving Redcloak's life from... well, there's a long list of possibilities, really.

Worldsong
2018-10-10, 12:57 AM
Probably that his innate goodness grinds against Zimmer's "living things are universally awful" worldview.

I was going to phrase it as "Glowing ball of positivity ruins the gloom."

hamishspence
2018-10-10, 01:27 AM
That said, I don't know what Zimmer apparently now has against Elan.

Probably that his innate goodness grinds against Zimmer's "living things are universally awful" worldview.

I was going to phrase it as "Glowing ball of positivity ruins the gloom."



Or that Elan having noticeably changed for the better between Dungeon Crawling Fools and the end of Blood Runs In The Family, undermines the "People don't change" schtick.