warmage into Rainbow Servant

[jdizzlean]

I'm tinkering around with a warmage build. yes i know most people think they suck, but i think they're fun. the table i play at is generally speaking mid OP. All the players have 15+ years exp each. This will be for a future game, but we generally start at 1 and go from there. Our games get a free +1 LA used as either race or template.

I plan on playing a primordial half-giant spellscale for that sweet CHA goodness. If i can get the DM to ok it, i'll add on the magic blooded (spark) template from Dragon 309, i think, for another +2 CHA. We roll stats 4d6 drop lowest. after adjustments and w/o spark above i'm at:

S 10, D 12, C 13, I 16, W 15, C 22

so far i have a pretty straight forward warmage4/rainbow 10. the only feat i have nailed down is versatile spellcaster at 3rd. I will not be able to take flaws, so please don't suggest them. I'm not sure what to plan out for the last 6 levels. I'm inclined to keep all the domains instead of trading off for devotion feats. 1 min/day just doesn't seem like a worthy trade out for 9 spells and a Granted Power.

I should state that while all 1st party sources are available, w/ the caveat that any Eberron material must be strongly advocated for (as the DM hates the creator), all PrC's must be earned in play and not just 'because i want to'. So i can't just go off on 465 tangents and expect it to be ok.

Right now, i'm conflicted about either attempting Sand Shaper (if the alignment thing isn't an issue, but that's probably a deal breaker), Wrym Wizard, or continuing Warmage to 8th and taking Battle Caster so i can cast in Heavy armor w/o ASF.

As this is for a future game, I don't have a party make up, but there are 6 players at the table, so I'm sure all bases would be covered.

I'm thinking primarily blaster/bfc backup as a playstyle, but after rainbow 10 lots of options open up obviously. I haven't even started putting spell lists together. I am going forward under the assumption that Rainbow is a 10/10 casting class as text trumps table. So at 14th level as the build sits right now I'll be casting any 7th lvl cleric spell, as well as up to 7ths from Warmage. I plan on using the Eclectic Learning ACF from PHB II for warmage, but that only affects a 2nd lvl spell unless I take more ranks of Warmage at the end of this build.

Can the playground suggest some feats, and some realistic suggestions for endgame class options and benefits?

[Nifft]

warmage4/rainbow 10. the only feat i have nailed down is versatile spellcaster at 3rd Are you trying to use Versatile Spell to get early entry into Rainbow Servant?

If the DM is awake, then Versatile Spellcaster doesn't allow you to cast spells you don't know, and doesn't allow you to break caster level cap on which spells you can cast. It doesn't create a level 3 slot -- it just allows you to cast a level X spell which you know from two slots of level (X-1). You don't know any level 3 spells yet; if you did know one, you couldn't cast it without caster level increases somehow.'

There are ways to know spells above your level -- like a level 1 character with a Spellwurm symbiote would know blur (because the symbiote says you do), and if you were a level 1 Sorcerer with Versatile Spellcaster plus some kind of caster level boosters to get you up to CL 4 then you could cast blur (a level 2 spell) as a level 1 character.

How are you getting knowledge of a level 3 spell at character level 4, and what are your caster level boosters?



I'm inclined to keep all the domains instead of trading off for devotion feats. 1 min/day just doesn't seem like a worthy trade out for 9 spells and a Granted Power.

Domain Feats might be useful if you can get Turn Undead attempts from somewhere, like maybe Sacred Exorcist (from Complete Divine). One level gets you everything you need.

Hmm, but those specific Domain feats aren't particularly great, so I'd probably keep the Domains even if you do get Turn Undead.

Incantatrix 4 seems pretty obvious as a nice thing to have.

[jdizzlean]

Are you trying to use Versatile Spell to get early entry into Rainbow Servant?

If the DM is awake, then Versatile Spellcaster doesn't allow you to cast spells you don't know, and doesn't allow you to break caster level cap on which spells you can cast. It doesn't create a level 3 slot -- it just allows you to cast a level X spell which you know from two slots of level (X-1). You don't know any level 3 spells yet; if you did know one, you couldn't cast it without caster level increases somehow.'

.

that makes sense, in that case probably replace versatile w/ heighten spell, or just take them both

[Nifft]

that makes sense, in that case probably replace versatile w/ heighten spell, or just take them both

Earth Sense + Heighten + Earth Spell can break spell level cap by one (for any spell level), but that's centered around preparing spells.

Heighten + Versatile can't break spell level cap -- Versatile only allows you to cast a spell you know, not to apply metamagic.

I think Versatile can only help you break the spell level cap if you know a spell above your usual spell level cap.

[Troacctid]

Have you already confirmed the primordial template and the full progression Rainbow Servant with your DM? (I have to say, I've encountered people who don't like Eberron, but this is the first who just doesn't like Keith Baker on a personal level.)

I often like to take a bloodline feat (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TJoueslFgEtMIqw_k5KU4D1v1UlQq2VWgbNXvYNL4KQ/edit?usp=drivesdk&ouid=109899719619589059697) to give my fixed-list casters some more options. Reserve feats are nice not just for the ammunition they give you but also for the CL boost, which is very relevant for a caster like a warmage who is reliant on CL for damage. Nymph's Kiss and Mercantile Background are generally good 1st level options that work on any build. Shape Soulmeld (Lucky Dice) gives a damage boost to your spells while also offering +1 to all skills and sometimes saving throws. Touchstone (Peaks of Continuation) is an underrated defensive option that prevents both HP damage and ability damage—good at low levels. Obtain Familiar is just good overall, especially if you can upgrade to Celestial Familiar later. Leadership is of course broken if it's allowed. Wild Cohort is great if you're starting at level 1.

[jdizzlean]

Have you already confirmed the primordial template and the full progression Rainbow Servant with your DM? (I have to say, I've encountered people who don't like Eberron, but this is the first who just doesn't like Keith Baker on a personal level.)

I often like to take a bloodline feat (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TJoueslFgEtMIqw_k5KU4D1v1UlQq2VWgbNXvYNL4KQ/edit?usp=drivesdk&ouid=109899719619589059697) to give my fixed-list casters some more options. Reserve feats are nice not just for the ammunition they give you but also for the CL boost, which is very relevant for a caster like a warmage who is reliant on CL for damage. Nymph's Kiss and Mercantile Background are generally good 1st level options that work on any build. Shape Soulmeld (Lucky Dice) gives a damage boost to your spells while also offering +1 to all skills and sometimes saving throws. Touchstone (Peaks of Continuation) is an underrated defensive option that prevents both HP damage and ability damage—good at low levels. Obtain Familiar is just good overall, especially if you can upgrade to Celestial Familiar later. Leadership is of course broken if it's allowed. Wild Cohort is great if you're starting at level 1.

I have not, right now this is just an exercise in thought. I know they've met IRL and that's where the friction comes from.

A bloodline could work, but it still has to be justified

touchstone's are pretty much out unless the campaign at the time were to go into the planes for some reason (for example, i'm playing a druid and was told a flat no on planar shepard as how would i ever get the knowledge's needed or visit the planes in the first place). I hadn't considered Mercantile, but what would you do w/ the extra 300g?



as to breaking spell level pre-req, if heighten won't do it, and versatile doesn't work that way, the only way I know to do it otherwise would be improved sigil (krau) from Races of Destiny, which means i'd have to play an illumian. However the way I read heighten is that when applied it simply increases the spell's level by 1, meaning I'd only have to know a 2nd lvl spell to cast it as a 3rd even if i didn't have a 3rd slot, which gets into raw/rai pretty hard. so i guess i'd have to give up spellscale and go illumian to still enter at 5th

[Troacctid]

touchstone's are pretty much out unless the campaign at the time were to go into the planes for some reason (for example, i'm playing a druid and was told a flat no on planar shepard as how would i ever get the knowledge's needed or visit the planes in the first place). I hadn't considered Mercantile, but what would you do w/ the extra 300g?
Buy more stuff. Anything, really. You get more starting gold, plus the whole party gets more gold over the course of the campaign (because you get to sell your loot for more gp), and you can occasionally get 25% off an expensive magic item. You just have more resources in general.

[radthemad4]

The Substitute Domain trick can be pretty handy. Rainbow Servant gives you domains that add the domain spells to your spells known. If you then UMD (you can get it as a class skill with the Apprentice feat) or cast the Substitute Domain spell (Cleric 2, so eventually you'll just be able to cast it normally, but you might want it as soon as you take your first Rainbow Servant level) somehow, you can swap out the Rainbow Servant domains for any offered by your deity and thus swap out those spells known by casting Substitute Domain. It takes 10 minutes to cast, but lasts one day per level. You can keep generally handy domains on it most of the time, and switch whenever you have 10 minutes to spare and need something else. A nice thing about this is that this comes online the moment you take your first level in Rainbow Servant as you get a domain then.

A very generous reading of the Apprentice feat from DMG 2 gives you any first level spell known from any list, and the option to swap out one of your spells for another of the same level from any list every time you level up, but I wouldn't count on most DMs being okay with this.

Bloodline feats are nice but be careful about what you'd lose from taking them since the Cleric list (and domains if you use the substitute domain trick) may have some cool niche stuff and the best thing about being a fixed list rainbow servant is being able to use whatever obscure cleric thing on a whim.

[Grim Reader]

You should talk to your DM about the Rainbow Servant. There was a long discussion about whether it is 6/10 or 10/10 caster progression, based on publication dates etc.

Anyway, the Versatile Spellcaster trick should work, but not alone. You need heighten spell too. Its based on the fixed list casters knowing all the spells of a level as soon as they are able to cast spells of that level, and heighten spell saying it counts as a spell of the heightened level for all purposes. Heighten plus Versatile working is from the same set of rulings that confirmed the Rainbow Servant as 10/10 so getting one probably means getting the other.

You can get Turn Undead from Necromantic Bloodline + Kin Mastery, so two feats. Probably need nightsticks for any decent number of turns though. Don't try the Apprentice thing, at best it will get you laughed at.

Domains don't really synergize well with fixed list casters, because you have to give up spells known picks to get domain spells on your list. And even if the DM lest you use eclectic learnings for spell picks, you are very badly supplied with those.

End-game options... Fiend-blooded gives you some bonuses and spell picks of any list. Talk to your DM about how prestige bard spells would work with a fixed list caster maybe.

[Cosi]

The idea that Prestige Domains don't work for fixed list casters is based off wishful thinking. Prestige Domains add spells to the list of spells you can learn, fixed list casters know all the spells they can learn. The notion that it doesn't work that way is based on the assumption that we should prefer totally dysfunctional readings to ones where Warmages benefit more than Sorcerers from anything. The idea that you can learn things with Advanced or Eclectic Learning is nonsensical. Those features define fixed lists you can add spells from. Prestige Domains either do nothing (obviously dysfunctional, not actually supported by the text), or they give you all the spells on the list (reasonable reading).

The reading on Apprentice isn't really all that generous, and it has the same "other readings are horribly dysfunctional" problem that Prestige Domains do (in that if "a spell" means "from your list", Advanced Learning doesn't work). You can, and therefore should, also use it to pick up substitute domain early. Yeah, the pick eventually becomes wasted, but it's like half the game of having one of the best tricks in the game on your spell list.

Don't take Fiend-Blooded. Prestige Domains do its job infinitely better.

My personal favorite endgame option for a Rainbow Servant build is Dweomerkeeper. Since the new spells from Rainbow Servant are divine, and your normal spells are arcane, you meet the casting qualifications. The other qualifications are fairly easy, and Supernatural Spell is strong. For example, you can get "greater effects" miracle at no XP cost. You could also grab Prestige Paladin + Battle Blessing (and potentially DMM: Persist, but that takes some doing).

Knowstones and/or Runestaves are a good investment, particularly if your DM allows Chameleon-style shenanigans with obscure lists and low-level spells. If you're investing in UMD, remember that "emulate a class feature" allows you to emulate expending a class feature, which means that a high enough UMD check gives you Knowstones at will.

[Nifft]

The idea that Prestige Domains don't work for fixed list casters is based off wishful thinking. Prestige Domains add spells to the list of spells you can learn, fixed list casters know all the spells they can learn. The notion that it doesn't work that way is based on the assumption that we should prefer totally dysfunctional readings to ones where Warmages benefit more than Sorcerers from anything. The idea that you can learn things with Advanced or Eclectic Learning is nonsensical. Those features define fixed lists you can add spells from. Prestige Domains either do nothing (obviously dysfunctional, not actually supported by the text), or they give you all the spells on the list (reasonable reading).

I don't really have a strong opinion in the Prestige Domains thing, but I do want to point out that this reasoning is bad.

There are clear and unambiguous options which do nothing (or do nothing useful), and the game isn't dysfunctional by recognizing that fact.

One very obvious example might be Skill Focus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#skillFocus) (speak language (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/speakLanguage.htm)), which is a Core option that does nothing. It's not a dysfunction, obviously -- it's just a bad choice. There's nothing secret or hidden behind it.

[Cosi]

I think the fact that Skill Focus (Speak Language) exists is absolutely a dysfunction. Abilities are supposed to do things. If an ability is written in a way that causes it not to do things, that ability is dysfunctional (see: normal archer's eye). I do agree that taking such a dysfunctional ability would be a bad choice.

However, in this instance, it's not "should you take a dysfunctional ability", but "which interpretation should you prefer". And I think in that context it's obvious that you should prefer to the one where the ability does something, particularly because that thing isn't broken. Getting all the spells from a Prestige Domain isn't broken. Even getting all the spells from a couple Prestige Domains + all your god's domains isn't broken. Combining Prestige Domains + substitute domain + Worshiping A Pantheon might count as broken. Repeatedly switching your god to be able to substitute domain to any domain is probably cheese.

And the alternative that people are peddling -- that you can learn Prestige Domain spells from Advanced Learning -- works off the same type of logic as Prestige Domains working, just from a weaker starting point. Grim Reader clearly doesn't want to believe that Prestige Domains do nothing. But he's also unwilling to believe that he might be wrong about Fixed List casters being bad, so he's forced into a tortured interpretation that isn't based on RAW because it's technically functional but still bad.

[Nifft]

I think the fact that Skill Focus (Speak Language) exists is absolutely a dysfunction. Abilities are supposed to do things. If an ability is written in a way that causes it not to do things, that ability is dysfunctional (see: normal archer's eye). I do agree that taking such a dysfunctional ability would be a bad choice.

It's not dysfunctional, though. All elements operate unambiguously by the rules. It's just never going to be useful.

At one point, the 3e designers claimed that peppering the game with trap options was deliberate and that system mastery meant knowing enough to avoid bad options. To me that justification only makes sense in a competitive gaming environment, so I don't agree with their reasoning, but it's pretty easy to understand how that reasoning applies in cases like this: the game does contain bad choices.

[Troacctid]

Fixed-list casters wouldn't be the only class to not be able to benefit much from a domain. The same is true for every non-casting class.

[Cosi]

Yes, and I'm sure people without a base attack bonus wouldn't find Power Attack especially valuable. Do you have anything useful to contribute to the discussion?