Flaming Sphere vs. Spiritual Weapon

[Dronedevil]

I've been looking all over for a thread that discusses this topic. Didn't find it, so I decided to make it.

Which is better; Flaming Sphere or Spiritual Weapon?

Lets say you dropped out of Wizard college after a handful of levels, and decided to take some levels as a battle nun, so your PhD dad can't trash-talk you anymore for failing your exams. You've been wondering what to do with your bonus actions when you're not shouting at your unconscious comrades.
Let's look at the contenders:



Flaming Sphere

2nd-level conjuration
Casting Time 1 action
Range 60 feet
Components V S M (Tallow, brimstone, powdered iron)
Duration Conc. Up to 1 minute
A 5-foot sphere of fire appears and lasts for the duration. Any creature that ends its turn within 5 feet of the sphere must make a Dexterity save. It takes 2d6 fire damage on a fail, or half damage on a success.

As a bonus action, you can move the sphere up to 30 feet. If you ram the sphere into a creature, that creature must make the saving throw against the sphere's damage, and the sphere stops moving this turn.

When you move the sphere, it can go over barriers up to 5 feet tall and jump across pits up to 10 feet wide. The sphere ignites flammable objects not being worn or carried, and it sheds bright light for 20 feet and dim light for an extra 20 feet.

At Higher Levels: The damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 2nd.

Flaming Sphere is the damage potential option, though it offers a lot in addition to that damage. It offers both damage potential with the ability to deal 2d6 fire damage up to two times in one round to a creature, and also safety, as some of that damage is guaranteed since it does half damage on a save.. Cast at higher levels the extra Xd6 is potentially doubled because you can in some situations trigger the save twice. Triggering the save twice, though, is probably not something you should rely on, but if you can get creative, it might come into play. The spell also offers AoE damage, and threatens a 15x15 ft square, giving you some crowd control/area denial. With speed of 30 ft a round, it should be able to keep up with your targets.

The most notable weaknesses are that the Sphere is locked to the ground, and a too large gap might prove a great challenge. The possibility of fire resistance or immunity also threatens this little ball's potential, but that can partially be remedies with a feat if it is a problem that you simply cannot bear dealing with. It also requires an action to cast, and can work as an emergency torch, if absolutely necessary. The concentration is also a major talking point here, as loosing your spell prematurely can be a sad experience.



Spiritual Weapon

2nd-level evocation
Casting Time 1 bonus action
Range 60 feet
Components V S
Duration 1 minute
You create a floating weapon that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. It can take any form you choose. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 force damage + your spellcasting ability modifier.

As a bonus action, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it.

At Higher Levels: The damage increases by 1d8 for every two slot levels above the 2nd.

Our divine contender Goes for a higher average damage, more risk, and a debatably better scaling (this somewhat depends on whether or not you manage to make opponents stay next to your burning ball of death). The fact that some of our damage comes from our spellcasting ability modifier moves some of the damage potential out of the hands of dice-Jesus (ironically enough), and into our 20 in wisdom. Though, where this spell offers consistency in terms of the damage rolls, it does not in terms of whether we hit or not. As a melee spell attack we do, sadly, have the chance to miss our attack entirely. We can however crit, so that is a definite bonus.

The spell doesn't offer much in terms of crowd control, or AoE, but force damage is not an as fickle damage type, being probably the best type of damage in the game. While our Spiritual Weapon is limited to a measly 20 ft of movement, it can however usually fly (this depends on your DM's interpretation). This gives us some utility in ways our Sphere didn't. It is a bonus action to cast, and doesn't require concentration.


I used to favor Flaming Sphere, mostly because of the Spiritual Weapon's sub-par speed, and our Death Disco Ball's area denial, but no concentration is pretty damned sweet, so I'm rather torn. What do you think?

[KOLE]

I think the only downside is concentration. How much are you in the fray? Do you hang back more often and mostly buff or res yor allies, or are you swinging next to the tank? Because if you’re not a dedicated combatant, the crowd control effect of the Sphere is just too good to pass up IMO.

[Specter]

I say they even out, because the sphere will deal damage to people even if they save, whereas Spiritual Weapon needs a hit. But concentration is an ever-increasing annoyance.

[MaxWilson]

I think the only downside is concentration. How much are you in the fray? Do you hang back more often and mostly buff or res yor allies, or are you swinging next to the tank? Because if you’re not a dedicated combatant, the crowd control effect of the Sphere is just too good to pass up IMO.

I'd rather spend my concentration on a game-changer such as (depending on the situation) Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge, Web, Spike Growth, Fear/Hypnotic Pattern, Tasha's, Suggestion, Phantasmal Force, Levitate, etc. than on Flaming Sphere, which is only damage after all.

I have heard of situations where Flaming Sphere can be a game-changer too but they are pretty niche AFAICT, and even the ones I've heard about (berserk gnoll hordes in cramped corridors) would be equally well-served by Spike Growth, Moonbeam, or Web.

[Sinon]

I would tend to agree –

While Flaming Sphere has advantages (faster, area denial), the fact that it requires concentration adds an opportunity cost. Though both spells give you a bonus action attack, there are too many other spells you can’t cast when you’re maintaining concentration on Flaming Sphere.

Also, in Spiritual Weapon’s favor there is the bonus-action casting and force damage over fire.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Divine Soul Sorcerer says "why not both?"

But yeah, Flaming Sphere has small advantages, but the fact that it has to compete for your Concentration slot is killer.

[Asmotherion]

It's really hard to compare. If Flaming sphere was avalable to the Sorcerer, I could imagin taking one or the other, but overall it's really all about what's better in each situation. Both are great spells, both have great uses, but unless you multiclass with a very MAD option (or a Bard), there is no instance were you would have to make the choice.

In the Bard's case, Spiritual Weapon wins, mostly by the "no consentration" selling point, since he has so many options to concentrate on. On the other hand, if in doubt (and really wants to pull this off) he might as well take both spells.

Overall, I think Flaming Sphere is a great control option, especially if you are in a non-oppen battlefield. In a narrow pathway for example, you can usually force the enemy to choose between "stay behind the flaming sphere, or take damage again", at the same time as you cast your spells.

Spiritual Weapon on the other hand is more Direct Support to your DPT. It's a way to either Cast a non damage dealing spell, and deal some damage in the same turn, or directly deal more damage than the action ecconomy strictly allows by providing you with an extra weapon.

[R.Shackleford]

Neither is better.

Got a high AC meat shield in your way? Flaming Sphere.

Got a dexterous little crap of an enemy that keeps passing their Dex saves? Spiritual Weapon.

Surrounded? Spiritual Weapon.

Want to keep a bit of distance? Flaming Sphere.

Want to cause collateral damage? Flaming Sphere.

Want to keep the forest/house from burning down? Spiritual Weapon.

They both are a lot of fun but white room situations don't do these spells justice.

Side Note: If it's fall, don't use burbing sphere in the woods. Druids don't like that.

Also they really need to start making more water spells, no way massive fires don't kill everyone like all the time.

[Tanarii]

One thing to take into account with Flaming Sphere is it only damages enemies that end their turn next to it. I saw a lot of players and DMs miss that when I played AL. Creatures can walk right past it or start their turn next to it and move away no problem. That does make it good for area denial though.

Also, it occupies a square.

My experience with it is Wizard players struggle a bit with placing it, especially in closed environments (ie dungeons). That's when it's at its most powerful, especially on defense. But you still have to think a bit about where to place it, based on what your party members and enemies are likely to want to do with their next turn. Even more than Moonbeam, which denies an area just for passing through it, it's a thinking man's spell.

[R.Shackleford]

One thing to take into account with Flaming Sphere is it only damages enemies that end their turn next to it. I saw a lot of players and DMs miss that when I played AL. Creatures can walk right past it or start their turn next to it and move away no problem. That does make it good for area denial though.

Also, it occupies a square.

My experience with it is Wizard players struggle a bit with placing it, especially in closed environments (ie dungeons). That's when it's at its most powerful, especially on defense. But you still have to think a bit about where to place it, based on what your party members and enemies are likely to want to do with their next turn. Even more than Moonbeam, which denies an area just for passing through it, it's a thinking man's spell.

You can ram a creature with the spell as a bonus action.

"As a bonus action, you can move the Sphere up to 30 feet. If you ram the Sphere into a creature, that creature must make the saving throw against the Sphere’s damage, and the Sphere stops moving this turn."

[Tanarii]

You can ram a creature with the spell as a bonus action.

"As a bonus action, you can move the Sphere up to 30 feet. If you ram the Sphere into a creature, that creature must make the saving throw against the Sphere’s damage, and the Sphere stops moving this turn."
What's that got to do with the price of milk?

[BoxANT]

cant cast flaming sphere with spirit guardians, but you can cast spiritual weapon

no contest

[Toofey]

As everyone has been saying here concentration is the main difference. Flaming sphere is also more DM dependent. (as you may have seen me say in other thread this spell was ruined for me in an entire campaign by a dm who nerfed it's environmental effects. ) But it's a false comparison because they are not comparable cost wise (concentration vs no), and they are typically not both available for any character (and lets be honest back to the concentration point if you have access to both you definitely have something better to be concentrating on.)

Flame Sphere is great in specific instances which is why it's great it's primarily for a class that can change it's spells every day. It's worth spending the GP to learn if you use a spellbook, other than that you shouldn't bother with it.

[nickl_2000]

Let me add in two more things

Flaming Sphere - Fire Damage
Spiritual Weapon - Force Damage
-Advantage Spiritual Weapon

Flaming Sphere - 1 action casting time
Spiritual Weapon - 1 bonus action casting time
-Advantage Spiritual weapon again.


Other all, you will get a better return from Spiritual Weapon.

[Specter]

cant cast flaming sphere with spirit guardians, but you can cast spiritual weapon

no contest

Spirit Guardians is for casters who have plans of jumping into melee, and most of them do not. Even Clerics who have a good AC can be thrashed quickly if they're surrounded. Also it's a lot more difficult to keep concentration in melee.

[R.Shackleford]

What's that got to do with the price of milk?

You wrote...

"One thing to take into account with Flaming Sphere is it only damages enemies that end their turn next to it. "

Which is 110% wrong.

Flaming Sphere is great for area denial because even if the target ends 15' away, a bonus action sends the ball into the creature.

Yeah, you can walk right past it, but it's going to just ram into a creature to potentially deal damage.

[MilkmanDanimal]

Standard use, Spiritual Weapon easily. No concentration, bonus action, done. The advantage to Flaming Sphere is crowd control and area denial, so it's situationally beneficial.

[Ganymede]

What's that got to do with the price of milk?

If you use the bonus action to repeatedly ram the flaming sphere into dairy cows, the price of milk goes up.

[Tanarii]

You wrote...

"One thing to take into account with Flaming Sphere is it only damages enemies that end their turn next to it. "

Which is 110% wrong.

You know, you don't need to follow me around threads twisting what I say in an attempt to pick fights.

[Guy Lombard-O]

If you use the bonus action to repeatedly ram the flaming sphere into dairy cows, the price of milk goes up.

Now THAT is funny!!! :smallbiggrin:

I agree with most others that Spiritual Weapon wins the bonus-off. Non-concentration just makes it stay relevant even after the 2nd & 3rd level spells aren't your big guns.

That said...and I know he wasn't invited to this particular party...have you considered another 2nd level fire-damage spell which does bonus damage? Sure, he takes concentration. And yes, it's fire damage. And I'll even admit that he's fairly situational, mostly for use against that single high AC tank at the head of that humanoid-flying-wedge that's slicing through your party like doom itself.

But man, when he's the right tool for the job, Heat Metal really comes through! No save, 60' range, 2d8 auto-hit (scalable) fire damage which inflicts disadvantage upon the attacks of the melee-monster the DM built to crush your hopes and dreams? Watching him forget his GWM DPR-fest while he roasts to death in his impossible-to-hit tin can?

Priceless. :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

If you use the bonus action to repeatedly ram the flaming sphere into dairy cows, the price of milk goes up.

Assume a spherical flaming cow...


But man, when he's the right tool for the job, Heat Metal really comes through! No save, 60' range, 2d8 auto-hit (scalable) fire damage which inflicts disadvantage upon the attacks of the melee-monster the DM built to crush your hopes and dreams? Watching him forget his GWM DPR-fest while he roasts to death in his impossible-to-hit tin can?

Priceless. :smallbiggrin:

It's even better when you use Conjure Minor Elementals VI to summon eight Magma Mephits which can cast eight Heat Metals simultaneously for 16d8 damage per turn AND breathe 16d6 total worth of fiery breath weapon in various 15' cones. (Recharge 6.)

[R.Shackleford]

You know, you don't need to follow me around threads twisting what I say in an attempt to pick fights.

I posted in this thread before you...

How am I the one following you around?

[Specter]

It's even better when you use Conjure Minor Elementals VI to summon eight Magma Mephits which can cast eight Heat Metals simultaneously for 16d8 damage per turn AND breathe 16d6 total worth of fiery breath weapon in various 15' cones. (Recharge 6.)

It only works if there are 8 enemies, though. The same enemy can't be affected by the spell twice.

[Citan]

I've been looking all over for a thread that discusses this topic. Didn't find it, so I decided to make it.

Which is better; Flaming Sphere or Spiritual Weapon?

I used to favor Flaming Sphere, mostly because of the Spiritual Weapon's sub-par speed, and our Death Disco Ball's area denial, but no concentration is pretty damned sweet, so I'm rather torn. What do you think?
Hi!

Well, my opinion is more of a mixed bag but...

I say they even out, because the sphere will deal damage to people even if they save, whereas Spiritual Weapon needs a hit. But concentration is an ever-increasing annoyance.

It's really hard to compare. If Flaming sphere was avalable to the Sorcerer, I could imagin taking one or the other, but overall it's really all about what's better in each situation. Both are great spells, both have great uses, but unless you multiclass with a very MAD option (or a Bard), there is no instance were you would have to make the choice.

In the Bard's case, Spiritual Weapon wins, mostly by the "no consentration" selling point, since he has so many options to concentrate on. On the other hand, if in doubt (and really wants to pull this off) he might as well take both spells.

Overall, I think Flaming Sphere is a great control option, especially if you are in a non-oppen battlefield. In a narrow pathway for example, you can usually force the enemy to choose between "stay behind the flaming sphere, or take damage again", at the same time as you cast your spells.

Spiritual Weapon on the other hand is more Direct Support to your DPT. It's a way to either Cast a non damage dealing spell, and deal some damage in the same turn, or directly deal more damage than the action ecconomy strictly allows by providing you with an extra weapon.


I think this sums it up.
What people tend to forget about, although it's a 100% YMMV thing, is party synergy.
Spiritual Weapon is just plain damage.
Flaming Sphere (barring immune/resistant enemies of course) can...
- Either see efficiency increased by combining it with forced movement or movement limitation from other members (on top of Spiked Growth or near a Spirit Guardians, or simply with ally grappling/making a OA Sentinel, or using Repelling/Pulling Blast etc).
- Or help increase an ally's melee efficiency, for example by inciting an enemy to move and risk OA rather than stay and take another instance of damage, which you calculate as a better decision for you because, what enemy does not know (yet) is a) your ally hits reliably and hard and b) your ally may have Sentinel or Smite or Sneak Attack or whatever else.
- Or help increase an ally's ranged/spellcasting efficiency, by motivating it to move out of cover/obscuration area (trying to regroup enemies for upcoming AOE, flushing out from behind a corner cover).

Basically, as with many other spells of the like on Druid list, it can be seen half-full or half-empty control/damage spell.
If you view and use it just as plain damage, it's lesser than others. If you use it only for control, you'd probably find better options for that level. Mainly because you don't directly control enemy movement, you just try to influence decision-making towards one choice among others that is favorable to you. Making it difficult to use efficiently at least without help as stressed above.
When you can exploit both, it's great. :)

In some parties it will be your best asset, in others you'll find it very disappointing. You just have to try and see if it fits your (and party's) style. :)


One thing to take into account with Flaming Sphere is it only damages enemies that end their turn next to it. I saw a lot of players and DMs miss that when I played AL. Creatures can walk right past it or start their turn next to it and move away no problem. That does make it good for area denial though.


You can ram a creature with the spell as a bonus action.

"As a bonus action, you can move the Sphere up to 30 feet. If you ram the Sphere into a creature, that creature must make the saving throw against the Sphere’s damage, and the Sphere stops moving this turn."

You know, you don't need to follow me around threads twisting what I say in an attempt to pick fights.
Mate, no use trying to play victim here. I don't know what's going on between you (and it's not my business anyways ^^) but in this case at least...
- You said something wrong.
- R.Shackleford just pointed it out (without any judgment on top of that, just reminding facts).
Trying to deny it serves no purpose really. ^^

[Willie the Duck]

Mate, no use trying to play victim here. You said something wrong, R.Shackleford just pointed it out (without any judgment on top of that, just reminding facts). Trying to deny it serves no purpose really. ^^

Coming at this cold (and not really knowing anything about any of the individuals involved), I came to the opposite conclusion. Everyone reading knew what Tanarii was talking about. FS damages without spending an action if the opponent ends their turn near it, not begins their turn near it (which would be more advantageous for the caster in a lot more situations, and thus a worthy point for discussion). It is trivially easy to see from context what Tanarii was talking about, and one almost has to assume him an idiot to believe he was unaware that you could spend a bonus action to ram someone with the sphere. Assuming that there is some bad blood between the two, it would seem a case of injudicious reading of another's statement for no reason except to foster an argument. Was the literal words Tanarii used correct? Of course not. From context, was it obvious what he was talking about? Yes. Does it look like R.Shackleford was deliberately spoiling for a fight? Also yes.

[Lord Haart]

Had a Spiritual Weapon that got a reputation for just hanging over there and steadily missing, and in the final tally turned out to have dealt less total damage than my familiar (refluffed owl that channeled Shocking Grasp from time to time).
To be fair, we did NOT include that one "battle" with an animate-but-immobile statue/turret thing when i just summoned SW, went back behind the corner and counted to ten (turns), then peeked over the corner and summoned another one to finish the job. But even that was a job the Sphere could do just as well, if not better.
In the (semi)final boss battle, however? The one where my character held out for ten turns before finally getting ripped apart and devoured? Can't say the SW had its chance for full 10 turns (there were turns when i used Second Wind, and there were turns when my character had only one arm left un-ripped and that kinda limited my avaiable actions), but for what spotlight it got, it chose to be profoundly, memorably useless.

So all i want to say is, don't trust SW to hit when you really would like it to.

[MaxWilson]

It only works if there are 8 enemies, though. The same enemy can't be affected by the spell twice.

This is a good point--but Heat Metal doesn't affect an enemy, it affects a metal object. Some enemies have more metal on them than others. If your enemy is e.g. a Githyanki Supreme Commander with metal plate armor, it's quite likely that you'll be able to find eight metal objects somewhere on his person that you can have your mephits turn all red-hot. Left gauntlet, right gauntlet, left greave, right greave, etc.

It is definitely a situational tactic though. Good point.

[Merudo]

The spell also offers AoE damage, and threatens a 15x15 ft square, giving you some crowd control/area denial.

This rarely comes into play, though.

Monsters can simply move 5 feet to the side and avoid the effect without triggering an OA.

And if you ram the flaming sphere right on top of a monster in melee range of party member(s), the monster will just stay put. Sure the monster gets 2d6 damage, but so does every party member within 5 feet of it.

The only time I can see Flaming Sphere doing good area denial is right behind the enemy line at choke points. And in these cases, I'd rather just cast Grease instead.

[R.Shackleford]

Coming at this cold (and not really knowing anything about any of the individuals involved), I came to the opposite conclusion. Everyone reading knew what Tanarii was talking about. FS damages without spending an action if the opponent ends their turn near it, not begins their turn near it (which would be more advantageous for the caster in a lot more situations, and thus a worthy point for discussion). It is trivially easy to see from context what Tanarii was talking about, and one almost has to assume him an idiot to believe he was unaware that you could spend a bonus action to ram someone with the sphere. Assuming that there is some bad blood between the two, it would seem a case of injudicious reading of another's statement for no reason except to foster an argument. Was the literal words Tanarii used correct? Of course not. From context, was it obvious what he was talking about? Yes. Does it look like R.Shackleford was deliberately spoiling for a fight? Also yes.

I've been at too many tables and forums where people accidentally/"accidentally" leave off a part of a spell or ability to fit their narrative.

You can assume all you want about how it was read, but the fact remains that what was said was wrong and when new/old people read it, they don't need to get confused about the spell.

Also, I'm still wondering how I followed someone to a thread by posting in said before them.

[BoxANT]

Spirit Guardians is for casters who have plans of jumping into melee, and most of them do not. Even Clerics who have a good AC can be thrashed quickly if they're surrounded. Also it's a lot more difficult to keep concentration in melee.

dodge action, works wonders

and can still attack w spiritual weapon

[Specter]

dodge action, works wonders

and can still attack w spiritual weapon

Well, sure, if you think that's productive.