Defense Bonus and Armor as DR

[Drakevarg]

I've been using these two rules from Unearthed Arcana for a while now, and while I like the two rules individually, together they're somewhat problematic. Mostly, that it renders light armor nearly useless. Padded armor in particular since it offers no DR and even the least combat-capable classes have a +2 Defense Bonus, which overlaps AC from armor.

There are a couple of fixes I can think of, though I'm not sure which to go for:
- My least favorite solution would be to make it so Defense Bonuses don't apply while flat-footed, making the AC bonus of armor a small bonus against ambushes. While somewhat logical, I think it harms more things than it helps.
- Another solution could be that, since Defense Bonuses and shields cover AC, armor could be converted entirely into DR. This approach would get the most benefit out of equipment, but the concern would be that it would make combat way too tank-y. There is appeal in the image of a guy in full plate wading into a hail of arrows, but it might draw things out too much.
- The last solution that comes to mind is also the most simple; just make DR round up rather than down. So an armor with +5 AC, which formerly became +3 AC and DR 2/--, is now +2 AC and DR 3/--. This at least makes padded armor not entirely useless without changing things up too much.

To be clear, I don't really care about what is the most "realistic" approach. I know that the actual defensive benefit of armor is a complex combination of weapon used, location of impact, etc etc etc. I'm only really interested in getting a solid gameplay benefit out of the setup without becoming completely tedious. Opinions?

[Crake]

I've been using these two rules from Unearthed Arcana for a while now, and while I like the two rules individually, together they're somewhat problematic. Mostly, that it renders light armor nearly useless. Padded armor in particular since it offers no DR and even the least combat-capable classes have a +2 Defense Bonus, which overlaps AC from armor.

There are a couple of fixes I can think of, though I'm not sure which to go for:
- My least favorite solution would be to make it so Defense Bonuses don't apply while flat-footed, making the AC bonus of armor a small bonus against ambushes. While somewhat logical, I think it harms more things than it helps.
- Another solution could be that, since Defense Bonuses and shields cover AC, armor could be converted entirely into DR. This approach would get the most benefit out of equipment, but the concern would be that it would make combat way too tank-y. There is appeal in the image of a guy in full plate wading into a hail of arrows, but it might draw things out too much.
- The last solution that comes to mind is also the most simple; just make DR round up rather than down. So an armor with +5 AC, which formerly became +3 AC and DR 2/--, is now +2 AC and DR 3/--. This at least makes padded armor not entirely useless without changing things up too much.

To be clear, I don't really care about what is the most "realistic" approach. I know that the actual defensive benefit of armor is a complex combination of weapon used, location of impact, etc etc etc. I'm only really interested in getting a solid gameplay benefit out of the setup without becoming completely tedious. Opinions?

I too use both of these, and these are the three fixes I implemented:

The AC granted by armor does not get reduced, and the DR from armor increases with enhancement bonuses. (I personally combine this with the automatic bonus progression system in pathfinder unchained)
Class defense does not apply any time you would normally be denied dexterity. This penalty applies even if you have uncanny dodge or some other ability that would let you retain your dexterity to AC in those moments. As you stated, this helps make armor useful for ambushes or against unaware attackers.
For characters with an AC bonus, like monk or swordsage, I let them use either their best proficiency for armor, or whatever the highest proficiency they're able to use and their AC bonus, so no monks with heavy armor proficiency ontop of their AC bonus, they get the unarmored proficency + AC bonus, or light/medium/heavy armor prof. Swordsage similarly can get light+ wis, or medium/heavy, whichever they prefer.

[Seerow]

My personal fix back when this was something I thought was worth trying to represent was a bit different. Rather than straight DR (which strongly incentivizes big two handed attacks, something that is already highly encouraged by the system), I instead made armor grant a pool of temporary HP that would refresh at the start of each turn.

So if you have padded armor with +1 AC bonus, it grants 1 temp HP each round. If you have full plate, it grants 8 temp HP each round. This gets increased by enhancement bonus, so +5 Full Plate grants 13 temp HP each round.

From there, the HP granted by the armor is multiplied by the attacks you gain from BAB. So if you are a level 16+ fighter with enchanted full plate, you're getting 52 hp every round from a combination of your armor and your skill in wearing it. If you're a 20th level Wizard wearing ASF-reduced chain shirt, you're getting 18 hp every round.

I wound up abandoning it more because I got tired of the extra book keeping, but overall I felt like it worked pretty well. Felt more balanced than DR at least.

[Drakevarg]

The AC granted by armor does not get reduced, and the DR from armor increases with enhancement bonuses. (I personally combine this with the automatic bonus progression system in pathfinder unchained)

So, for example, a suit of mail would grant DR 2/-- as usual, but rather than subtracting it from the AC bonus, it still grants its usual +5 AC?


Class defense does not apply any time you would normally be denied dexterity. This penalty applies even if you have uncanny dodge or some other ability that would let you retain your dexterity to AC in those moments. As you stated, this helps make armor useful for ambushes or against unaware attackers.

I like this part, at least when combined with the above rule. Uncanny Dodge only counting for the DEX bonus is a nice touch, makes it feel more reflexive.


For characters with an AC bonus, like monk or swordsage, I let them use either their best proficiency for armor, or whatever the highest proficiency they're able to use and their AC bonus, so no monks with heavy armor proficiency ontop of their AC bonus, they get the unarmored proficency + AC bonus, or light/medium/heavy armor prof. Swordsage similarly can get light+ wis, or medium/heavy, whichever they prefer.

Isn't this in keeping with RAW? AC bonus only applies while wearing certain types of armor and just turns off when wearing stuff that doesn't qualify.


-armor-as-bonus-HP-stuff-

Yeah, sounds like a lot of book-keeping. Static bonuses might not be realistic but at least they're easy to manage.

[Crake]

So, for example, a suit of mail would grant DR 2/-- as usual, but rather than subtracting it from the AC bonus, it still grants its usual +5 AC?

Yup, that's correct.


I like this part, at least when combined with the above rule. Uncanny Dodge only counting for the DEX bonus is a nice touch, makes it feel more reflexive.

That was my intention behind it, yeah. Uncanny dodge represents, in my mind, a primal instict, wheras the class defense is an analytical pattern of defense. You can't analyze attack patterns to avoid attacks better when you aren't aware of attacks, and likewise, having an uncanny instinct doesn't help either.


Isn't this in keeping with RAW? AC bonus only applies while wearing certain types of armor and just turns off when wearing stuff that doesn't qualify.

I was referring to the class defense bonus. So normally, a monk with a level of fighter would get their monk AC bonus ontop of the class defense bonus of heavy armor, even when completely unarmored. With this houserule, a fighter/monk can choose between unarmored class defense + monk AC, OR heavy armor class defense.

[Drakevarg]

I was referring to the class defense bonus. So normally, a monk with a level of fighter would get their monk AC bonus ontop of the class defense bonus of heavy armor, even when completely unarmored. With this houserule, a fighter/monk can choose between unarmored class defense + monk AC, OR heavy armor class defense.

I think I get it. Though I'd perhaps argue that the monk hardly needs nerfing. Monk/Fighter is a bad example of this, but any bonus gained from a small crossclass dip should be paid by the opportunity cost of not sticking to a single class.

[Crake]

I think I get it. Though I'd perhaps argue that the monk hardly needs nerfing. Monk/Fighter is a bad example of this, but any bonus gained from a small crossclass dip should be paid by the opportunity cost of not sticking to a single class.

Monk aren't the only one who get an AC bonus like this though, and also keep in mind that this AC bonus can be gained from just a monk's belt, so it's not the monk class itself that needs to be kept in check. Imagine instead, a cleric (who gets heavy armor proficiency) who just plonks on a monk's belt? Basically gives them a free +wismod+1 to AC ontop of everything else.

[animewatcha]

What about if what is normally 'touch ac' be the defense/dodge rating. and the difference touch ac and what would be normally be regular ac or flat-footed ac be the DR.

Normal AC 15
Touch AC 9
Flatfooted 13

Attack total 8 or below means dodge.
If attack is 9 or higher, then DR is 6 for normal attack and 4 for flat flooted.

[Nifft]

Hmm, to combine a level-based Defense bonus with DRmor...

- Armor lowers AC. Heavier armor makes you easier to hit, but also reduces damage per hit.

- DRmor applies to all damage. Spells and breath weapons don't get a free pass.

If that's not enough, then add a few new sources for small incremental damage: for example perhaps a near-miss is a graze, and it deals 1d6 nonlethal damage instead of whatever it would have normally dealt.

[RedWarlock]

My personal rule is a bit different: AC from armor still applies in full (and overlaps with defense bonus), but if they hit touch AC but don’t hit regular, they deal half damage. Then apply DR [armor bonus]/– anyway, whether a hit or miss. Tiny hits become inconsequential, big hits have a bit less sting.

[Drakevarg]

An idea I just thought up, which I think works pretty well, is actually pretty simple:

Armor grants DR instead of AC (at its full bonus), but half of the damage blocked by armor (rounded up) is still taken as nonlethal damage.

This allows armor to fulfill its intended purpose (making blows more survivable), without being overshadowed by defensive skill, and without letting the wearer simply tank blows all day. Unless someone has a good argument as to why this wouldn't work out, I think it serves my purposes.

[Crake]

An idea I just thought up, which I think works pretty well, is actually pretty simple:

Armor grants DR instead of AC (at its full bonus), but half of the damage blocked by armor (rounded up) is still taken as nonlethal damage.

This allows armor to fulfill its intended purpose (making blows more survivable), without being overshadowed by defensive skill, and without letting the wearer simply tank blows all day. Unless someone has a good argument as to why this wouldn't work out, I think it serves my purposes.

In my e6 games I do something similar. I use the wounds/vitality system, and while you have vitality left, armor acts entirely as DR, but once you start hitting wounds, the DR from armor instead converts damage to nonlethal wounds. The outcome of this means more often than not, a character wearing armor will be knocked out instead of being killed. Very useful in e6, where hits remain relatively light, and coming back to life is nigh impossible.

[Drakevarg]

In my e6 games I do something similar. I use the wounds/vitality system, and while you have vitality left, armor acts entirely as DR, but once you start hitting wounds, the DR from armor instead converts damage to nonlethal wounds. The outcome of this means more often than not, a character wearing armor will be knocked out instead of being killed. Very useful in e6, where hits remain relatively light, and coming back to life is nigh impossible.

I was originally planning to use Reserve Points when my campaign was E6, I can't remember why we dropped them. Probably to keep the rules bloat down, which is also why I think my solution is a bit more palatable than most of the "except if/when"-laden approaches suggested so far.