Tiny Humanoid

[Malapterus]

Hey, does anyone know of a legitimate Tiny humanoid race? I can't find any with the monster filters, and 'DandDwiki' clogs up all my searches with homebrew stuff.

I'm building a world, and it's supposed to be a fantastic array of new things for people from a land that has been isolated from the outside world for generations. I have a nation of civilized forest giants (so sexy) and so I thought it would be cool to have a nation of Tiny or even smaller people for them to come across.

Fine Humanoid city - look out, here comes an anteater!

I also have a stable hobgoblin nation ringed by tribes of aggressive ogres, a human nation that used to be a dwarven nation, a tropical island nation where said dwarves ended up (the economy there is terrible), a desert nation run by formorians, and a nation that exists entirely within a single unimaginably massive tree, populated by myconids.

If anyone has any other interesting ideas i can borrow I'd like to hear it, but what i'm really looking for is a legitimate race of little bitty people.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A psychic warrior manifesting a fully augmented compression power made permanent with incarnate would work.*

Also, Arcana Unearthed has a Tiny-sized fey, though that's 3rd party, which actually might be your cup of tea, given everything in there. Half-giant race, fey race, humanoid lion race, humanoid jackal race, an entirely new magic system...



*Question: what happens if two incarnate'd compression'd creatures conceive a child that is NOT under the effects of either power?

[Thurbane]

Yeah, the only RAW answer I'm aware of would be a small Humanoid creature using (permanent) Reduce Person or similar.

You could also try getting the Human Heritage feat on a Jermlaine or Muckdweller, but that seems a stretch...

Kobolds can count as tiny for some purposes: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a


Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

I believe there's a spell that can reduce the size of a Giant incrementally, in an Eberron sourcebook

If 3rd party is OK, I believe the Mite from Dangerous Denizens is a tiny Humanoid.

[Jack_Simth]

*Question: what happens if two incarnate'd compression'd creatures conceive a child that is NOT under the effects of either power?Undefined in RAW (like most things regarding breeding, really), so ask your DM. Answers will vary from "Messy things" to "It's a normal baby because magic Psionics" to "Super tiny baby" to "they can't conceive" and quite a few variations.

[Maat Mons]

Cast incarnate construct on a dustform jermlaine or muckdweller?

[Remuko]

a tropical island nation where said dwarves ended up

Tropical dwarves eh? That sounds quite amusing tbh.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Tropical dwarves eh? That sounds quite amusing tbh.Aloe dwarVera: for tropical use only.

[Goaty14]

Cast incarnate construct on a dustform jermlaine or muckdweller?

W-why? Both of those are already Tiny and don't have LA attached.

[liquidformat]

What is wrong with having a civilization of the fey'er folk? That seems like it could be an interesting solution and there are a decent number of tiny fey: jermlaine, muckdweller, grig, and petals.

If you really want to go off the wall why not a civilization of moon rats from MMII that live in a cave that has the roof enchanted to always have the light of a full moon shining down on them. Then you could have a rat king and rat bards and goofy weirdness of the rat civilization.

Beyond that Kobold with slight build seems like a good choice or you could take anthropomorphic rat and/or toad from savage species and slap slight build on them. The toad and rat have kind of crap ability scores so I think even slapping on slight build still shouldn't justify giving them an la.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Having a "race" of various anthropomorphic animals to expand on D&D's list of humans with green skin or weird ears or beards Good/Neutral fantasy races seems like an easy way to make your world different enough, and there are plenty of those in the books, though most of them are Evil and/or barbaric. Just change the alignments and attitudes, and toss in a good dash of Redwall, and you're set.

[Malapterus]

Tropical dwarves eh? That sounds quite amusing tbh.

Oh, it is. They hate it there because it's mostly sand. The only mountain is a volcano, which is fun, but hot and dangerous to mine in. The only considerable metals to mine are gold and silver, which they mine in huge quantity, so everything there costs 10x as much due to inflation. I'm going to pitch it as a terrible place to buy gear, and see if the playes figure out it's a great place to -sell- gear.

[Darrin]

W-why? Both of those are already Tiny and don't have LA attached.

To change the type to humanoid. Jermlaine are fey, muckdwellers are monstrous humanoids.

[Vizzerdrix]

Hmm... return to nature a few times on a giant race maybe?

[liquidformat]

Oh, it is. They hate it there because it's mostly sand. The only mountain is a volcano, which is fun, but hot and dangerous to mine in. The only considerable metals to mine are gold and silver, which they mine in huge quantity, so everything there costs 10x as much due to inflation. I'm going to pitch it as a terrible place to buy gear, and see if the playes figure out it's a great place to -sell- gear.

Do tropical dwarves get the stench ability? I feel like they should get the stench ability...

[Thurbane]

Does it have to be Humanoids specifically? Because as mentioned, Jermlaine and Muckdwellers could fit the role of a Tiny civilisation.

There's also Petals, Rime Sprites, Brownies, Grigs etc.

Like I mentioned earlier, Mites are an option, from the "semi-official" source Dangerous Denizens: The Monsters of Telene. It has the D&D logo on the front.

[Maat Mons]

If anyone has any other interesting ideas i can borrow I'd like to hear it

Here are some of the weirder races, if you're interested.

Cyclopean: one-eyed, medium-sized humanoids
Faun: goat-legged, medium-sized fey
Grippli: frog-like, medium-sized humanoids
Kenku: avian, medium-sized humanoids
Minotaur, Krynn: bull-headed, medium-sized humanoids
Nezumi: rat-like, medium-sized humanoids
Pterran: pterodactyl-like, medium-sized humanoids
Tortle: chelonian, medium-sized humanoids
Vril: bat-like, small-sized humanoids
Warforged: medium-sized constructs

[DrMotives]

Here are some of the weirder races, if you're interested.

Cyclopean: one-eyed, medium-sized humanoids
Faun: goat-legged, medium-sized fey
Grippli: frog-like, medium-sized humanoids
Kenku: avian, medium-sized humanoids
Minotaur, Krynn: bull-headed, medium-sized humanoids
Nezumi: rat-like, medium-sized humanoids
Pterran: pterodactyl-like, medium-sized humanoids
Tortle: chelonian, medium-sized humanoids
Vril: bat-like, small-sized humanoids
Warforged: medium-sized constructs

Grippli are small, not medium. Little tree frog people, I love them.

[Thurbane]

Here are some of the weirder races, if you're interested.

Cyclopean: one-eyed, medium-sized humanoids
Faun: goat-legged, medium-sized fey
Grippli: frog-like, medium-sized humanoids
Kenku: avian, medium-sized humanoids
Minotaur, Krynn: bull-headed, medium-sized humanoids
Nezumi: rat-like, medium-sized humanoids
Pterran: pterodactyl-like, medium-sized humanoids
Tortle: chelonian, medium-sized humanoids
Vril: bat-like, small-sized humanoids
Warforged: medium-sized constructs

If they are the major races, sounds like a very interesting setting! :smallsmile:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Neraphim from the Planar Handbook. LA/RHD 0 mini-slaad.

Tibbits, hengeyokai, and divine minions. Low/no LA/RHD animal shapeshifters. Add one or more levels in shapeshifting druid for a werebeastie without most of the drawbacks.

Blue gobbos (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm). One of my favorite characters ever was a blue gobbo. They should NOT be LA +1. Lower 'em to +0 for a somewhat exotic Small psionic race.

Xephs Dromites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#) are Small bug-people. Psionic, of course.

Half-giants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#halfGiants) for a pseudo-Large psionic race of giants.

Take the first two levels of this racial class (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/thri-kreen-racial-class/index.html) to make a decent thri-kreen -- ie, a four-armed bug-person. Don't bother with later "levels"; they kinda really suck. LA sucks.

[Thurbane]

Xephs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#xephs) are Small bug-people. Psionic, of course.

I believe you might be thinking of Dromites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#).

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80489.jpg

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I believe you might be thinking of Dromites (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#).

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/80489.jpgYeah, them.

Honestly, aside from illithids, kalashtar, elan, half-giants, thri-kreen, and blues, I never hear anyone talking about most psionic races, so it's easy to forget which is which among the chaff.

[OgresAreCute]

There's also some wacky races in the Dragon Compendium. The most interesting is probably the big beetle people called Diopsid (I think).

[Fizban]

The OP hasn't specified any reason they need to be Humanoid typed, just that they need to be a "legitimate race of little bitty people."

However- are Tiny creatures even capable of forming a "civilization," in the Medium creature sense? Do they have the strength necessary to reliably strike a fire? To build buildings? To haul crops? Work metal or even wood?

[OgresAreCute]

The OP hasn't specified any reason they need to be Humanoid typed, just that they need to be a "legitimate race of little bitty people."

However- are Tiny creatures even capable of forming a "civilization," in the Medium creature sense? Do they have the strength necessary to reliably strike a fire? To build buildings? To haul crops? Work metal or even wood?

Tiny creatures with powerful build and a strength bonus? :smallamused:
Most depictions of tiny civilizations I can think of are sprite-like fey who make everything from their homes to their clothes out of leaves and stuff like that.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Check out Musteval from BoED. Technically a tiny outsider, but anthropomorphically humanoid and first line of the descriptive text says humanoid.
Just imagine a city of weasel people who can all cast magic missle at will........

[WoodStock_PV]

I think Domovoi is tiny. It was on that book about cold environments. Always found their image was cool.

[Malapterus]

These aren't supposed to be playable, just people to encounter.

The playable races are
Human
Orc
Half-Orc
High Elf (extremely rare)
Half-elf
Halfling
Tallfellow (billed as a half-halfling)
Gnome (rare)
Gnoll (rare)
Bugbear (rare)
Lizardfolk
Poison Dusk Lizardfolk
-and I will remain open to other ideas, though the nation has no immigration or emigration

Definitely banned are:
Dwarf (no one knows why!)
Drow
Wood Elf (local bad guys)
Psionic races (my players are too new)
Ogres
Anything not in MM1 or the SRD.

Kobolds live on the island and many of their tribes are peaceful but it is unlikely any would be called for thus mission.

Allowed alignments are:
LG
NG
CG
LN
NN
LE

The queen prefers conformity over good intentions.

Starting at level 10 with most classes acceptable.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You ought to buff up half-elves and half-orcs, because they suck pretty hard. And not in a fun way.

[OgresAreCute]

Your players are "too new" for psionic races but not too new to start at level 10? Either you'll basically make their builds for them, or there will be lots of single-classed weapon specialization fighters going around.

[Thurbane]

So the stats for a Mite are as follows:

Tiny Humanoid
Speed: 20 ft
Special Attacks: Teamwork
Special Qualities: Bunching, low-light vision
Bonus feat: Alertness
LA +0
Str -4, Dex +4, Int -2, Cha -2
+2 racial bonus to Listen

http://i66.tinypic.com/euetue.jpg

[Malapterus]

You ought to buff up half-elves and half-orcs, because they suck pretty hard. And not in a fun way.

I'm giving Half-Orcs +1 natural armor & Orcs +2.

What's wrong with half-elves? how would you fix it?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm giving Half-Orcs +1 natural armor & Orcs +2.

What's wrong with half-elves? how would you fix it?Half-elves and half-orcs just don't get much of anything useful -- half-elves far more so than half-orcs, for sure.

The immunity to sleep effects is useful against the occasional wizard for all of a few levels, and then it might as well not even be there. Everything they get is really circumstantial and insubstantial, and very little actually applies to combat and adventuring.

Note that the following is in addition to the hodgepodge they get now. Though what half-elves get now is a rather big mess, so maybe tidy that up a bit. Fewer but larger bonuses would be infinitely more useful, honestly.

Give half-elves one armor or shield proficiency feat, one melee weapon proficiency and one ranged weapon proficiency of their choice, plus add one skill of their choice to their skills list and +1 skill point per level? That encourages them to play skillful types without forcing it, and even a half-elven fighter could choose an exotic weapon. They have some of what their elven parent had and some of what their human parent had, but they're their own, distinct race. Still not as good as a human (that choosable bonus feat is damned nice), and they don't really overshadow anyone else, despite now being a decently powerful race. With the additional combat options and additional skill options, it almost feels like they are a fighter/thief theurge, hearkening back to 2e and before.

Half-orcs are less useful than either parent race, either full-blooded human or orc, so we need something for them like what half-elves get, making them powerful, useful, and distinct, without overshadowing either. Well, for one, they should only get one penalty to a mental stat, since they only get one +2 to Str. They get to choose which mental stat gains a -2 penalty. Then rage (as barbarian of their HD) 1/day. If they take levels in barbarian, the times per day stack. Not subject to fatigue from raging. Always proficient in simple and martial weapons, light armor, and light shields; if they gain proficiency to one of those through some other means (such as via class or feat), they gain +1 racial to attack and +1 armor bonus and +1 shield bonus to AC when using one of those options, as appropriate. Multiple proficiencies stack, up to a maximum of 1/2 HD (minimum +1). This encourages both multiclassing in martial classes and taking levels in barbarian, and passively discourages spellcasting (and encouraging gishing when the half-orc in question is a spellcaster of some sort). Not as flexible as the half-elf or human, but they are most definitely encouraged to take the lead in combat. Yes, this is better than a full-blooded orc, but those aren't exactly supposed to be for PCs anyway.

Now both are quite strong, but not THAT strong.

[Malapterus]

Half-elves and half-orcs just don't get much of anything useful -- half-elves far more so than half-orcs, for sure.

The immunity to sleep effects is useful against the occasional wizard for all of a few levels, and then it might as well not even be there. Everything they get is really circumstantial and insubstantial, and very little actually applies to combat and adventuring.

Note that the following is in addition to the hodgepodge they get now. Though what half-elves get now is a rather big mess, so maybe tidy that up a bit. Fewer but larger bonuses would be infinitely more useful, honestly.

Give half-elves one armor or shield proficiency feat, one melee weapon proficiency and one ranged weapon proficiency of their choice, plus add one skill of their choice to their skills list and +1 skill point per level? That encourages them to play skillful types without forcing it, and even a half-elven fighter could choose an exotic weapon. They have some of what their elven parent had and some of what their human parent had, but they're their own, distinct race. Still not as good as a human (that choosable bonus feat is damned nice), and they don't really overshadow anyone else, despite now being a decently powerful race. With the additional combat options and additional skill options, it almost feels like they are a fighter/thief theurge, hearkening back to 2e and before.

Half-orcs are less useful than either parent race, either full-blooded human or orc, so we need something for them like what half-elves get, making them powerful, useful, and distinct, without overshadowing either. Well, for one, they should only get one penalty to a mental stat, since they only get one +2 to Str. They get to choose which mental stat gains a -2 penalty. Then rage (as barbarian of their HD) 1/day. If they take levels in barbarian, the times per day stack. Not subject to fatigue from raging. Always proficient in simple and martial weapons, light armor, and light shields; if they gain proficiency to one of those through some other means (such as via class or feat), they gain +1 racial to attack and +1 armor bonus and +1 shield bonus to AC when using one of those options, as appropriate. Multiple proficiencies stack, up to a maximum of 1/2 HD (minimum +1). This encourages both multiclassing in martial classes and taking levels in barbarian, and passively discourages spellcasting (and encouraging gishing when the half-orc in question is a spellcaster of some sort). Not as flexible as the half-elf or human, but they are most definitely encouraged to take the lead in combat. Yes, this is better than a full-blooded orc, but those aren't exactly supposed to be for PCs anyway.

Now both are quite strong, but not THAT strong.

That's quite a lot. I know half orcs are screwed when all the source books come in, making srength less valuable - but this is looking like level adjustment territory to me. What would you say to just the +1 natural armor and an extra hit point or two oer hit die? Beefed up a little for a full orc.

For half elf, maybe, go ahead and get the elf stat adjustment, the human bonus feat, the low light vision, immunities, and the perceptive bonuses? The other bonuses make no sense so drop them. Alternatively, let them pick their stat adustment; -2 to a physical stat of their choice and +2 to a mental. This would make them more customizeable like humans but still have that fantasy feel. Keep in mind that humans get bonus skill points on top of the bonus feat, and the half elf is not getting that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's quite a lot. I know half orcs are screwed when all the source books come in, making srength less valuable - but this is looking like level adjustment territory to me. What would you say to just the +1 natural armor and an extra hit point or two oer hit die? Beefed up a little for a full orc.That just doesn't really do anything. Humans overshadow every other LA +0 race because their bonuses matter, in a really, really big way. +1 skill point per level and +1 bonus feat -- any feat they qualify for -- is huge. Not only does it get more powerful with every feat and skill that's released, but they give humans more things to do and give them prereqs for PrCs and even more feats, and as such, they scale massively in power and utility with level. Grabbing a relatively weak prereq for a stronger feat, and one feat beyond that, and the feat beyond that, is massive.

The bonuses I listed above actually give them meaningful bonuses to what half-orcs are expected to do, without denying them the ability to do other things, if they want. But even if you have, say, a half-orc caster, s/he'll want to be mixing it up in melee just for the sweet bonuses that can accrue. And s/he'll want to take a level or two in barbarian, as well as multiclass into other martial classes. This seems to me like it's something that is a good bonus for a mixed human/orc race, since it helps reinforce stereotypes without preventing one from breaking the mold, if one wants. If that, along with all the other stuff, is more than LA +0, we could figure out something else. But as it stands, half-orcs are bland, weak, and just don't really do anything important that being full orc doesn't do massively better.


For half elf, maybe, go ahead and get the elf stat adjustment, the human bonus feat, the low light vision, immunities, and the perceptive bonuses? The other bonuses make no sense so drop them. Alternatively, let them pick their stat adjustment; -2 to a physical stat of their choice and +2 to a mental. This would make them more customizable like humans but still have that fantasy feel. Keep in mind that humans get bonus skill points on top of the bonus feat, and the half elf is not getting that.The adjustments are certainly better than they currently are.

You need to consider why someone would want to play either race that they couldn't do with a different one. There's really no reason at all to go half-elf unless you need to squeeze out prereqs for human-only and elf-only stuff, and even then, it'd be better for a elf to take Human-Blooded or something. And going orc is going to be better than half-orc 99.9% of the time.

[Malapterus]

Hey mang, check out the project you have inspired for me

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?571275-3-5-race-builder&p=23431642