Thor or The Dark One is Lying, and I dont see why yet....

[Thanatosia]

In today's Strip, Thor claims Loki and the other evil gods tried to maintain friendly contact with the Dark One with the intention of letting him in on the secret of the Snarl, but the Dark One found out on his own before they did and then cut off communication with even the evil dieties of the existing pantheons.

In start of Darkness, The Dark One, via the info-dump ability of the Red Mantle Artifact, told Redcloak that when the Dark One discovered the rifts, he went to his allies among the existing pantheons (Loki/Rat/Tiamat - tho only Rat and Tiamat is illustrated in the crayon scene where he seeks info), who gave him the backstory of the Snarl.


So who is lying.... and why?? I can't see any real reason for either god to lie to his own followers on this point. Obviously I suspect Thor is more likely telling the truth since he's good and TDO is evil, and his version of the story explains TDO not having contact with the older gods, while the Red Mantle version would seem to have left TDO on friendly terms with the evil gods. Is the TDO trying to cover something up from Redcloak in this minor-seeming 'massaging of the details'..... and if so, what?

Edit - further thoughts: It also leaves unanswered how TDO discovered the story of the Snarl if the evil gods didn't read him in. Maybe his method of learning about the Snarl is something he doesn't want Redcloak to know? Is it possible he somehow made contact with the Snarl and the 'Plan' is a double cross on redcloak on top of redcloaks double cross of Xykon? If so, maybe he is misinforming Redcloak on the true nature of the plan to hide it's real goal from the other gods.

[LadyEowyn]

Third option: Loki is lying to Thor about the state of relations with the Dark One.

I agree that it's hard to see how the Dark One would know certain facts (such as the Snarl having destroyed at least one previous world and killed some of the gods) without having been told so by some of the previously-existing gods. I don't think the Snarl itself is intelligent and self-aware enough to tell him.

[Gift Jeraff]

My take on #1143 is that Loki was the only god who tried being buddy-buddy with the Dark One. The Dark One later saw hiding the secret of the Snarl as meaning the friendship was a ruse, so he cut off ties with Loki but still saw Tiamat and Rat in a neutral light (as they vouched for him in the beginning but did not feign friendship, in the Dark One's eyes) so he went to them for information.

EDIT: Actually Peelee's post makes more sense, as the Dark One wouldn't have known how big of a threat the Snarl was until after his former allies told him.

[Peelee]

In today's Strip, Thor claims Loki and the other evil gods tried to maintain friendly contact with the Dark One with the intention of letting him in on the secret of the Snarl, but the Dark One found out on his own before they did and then cut off communication with even the evil dieties of the existing pantheons.

In start of Darkness, The Dark One, via the info-dump ability of the Red Mantle Artifact, told Redcloak that when the Dark One discovered the rifts, he went to his allies among the existing pantheons (Loki/Rat/Tiamat - tho only Rat and Tiamat is illustrated in the crayon scene where he seeks info), who gave him the backstory of the Snarl.


So who is lying.... and why??

Neither. Dark One discovers Snarl, other gods tell him the deal, The Dark One cuts off contact. Easy peasy, nobody lies, everything lines up.

[factotum]

Neither. Dark One discovers Snarl, other gods tell him the deal, The Dark One cuts off contact. Easy peasy, nobody lies, everything lines up.

This. The Gods were intending to tell the Dark One about the Snarl when they considered the time was right, but he found out by himself before that happened--this is exactly what Thor says in the current strip, and it does not conflict at all with the story we were told in SoD.

[Linneris]

Third option: Loki is lying to Thor about the state of relations with the Dark One.

Fourth option: Rich forgot.

Though SoD only shows the Dark One talking to Tiamat and Rat. Loki is nowhere to be found.

[Bacon Elemental]

There's also the chance that the reason the Dim One stopped talking to the other gods when he found out from rat/tiamat/meditating real hard about the Snarl was in an attempt to keep them in the dark about The Plan long enough to set the ball rolling, although its unclear exactly how long the other gods have known about it.

My personal favorite theory is that Loki is telling fibs to Thor about not being in contact with His Purpleness (hence the strong emphasis on the Dank One cutting ties in an incredibly dramatic way according to Loki)

[warmachine]

I'm going with Loki lying. He is a trickster god, after all. His plan, along with other evil gods, is to get Thor to demand The Dark One's entrance into the Goodsmoot and other inter-pantheon discussions. Loki knows The Dark One won't agree to repairing the world prison without huge concessions that the other gods won't agree to, so the world prison will eventually fail. Thor and others will agree that The Dark One gets a quarter share of the next world prison to make it permanent. The Dark One gets to create the goblinoid races on a quarter of the world, which is better than what they have now. The other evil gods gets another world with the balance shifted more towards evil.

[Peelee]

I'm going with Loki lying. He is a trickster god, after all. His plan, along with other evil gods, is to get Thor to demand The Dark One's entrance into the Goodsmoot and other inter-pantheon discussions. Loki knows The Dark One won't agree to repairing the world prison without huge concessions that the other gods won't agree to, so the world prison will eventually fail. Thor and others will agree that The Dark One gets a quarter share of the next world prison to make it permanent. The Dark One gets to create the goblinoid races on a quarter of the world, which is better than what they have now. The other evil gods gets another world with the balance shifted more towards evil.

Except that theory falls apart when you remember Loki voted to save the world. Talking to TDO would further that goal.

Also, i have nothing against "I think Loki is not being honest" theories, but I have yet to see one that included why he would not be honest.

[Kish]

From the current strip discussion thread:

Yeah, I find myself wondering.

Thor's version of events says that the Dark One learned about the Snarl on his own, and cut off relations with Loki and all other gods for withholding information from him.

Redcloak's version of events says that the Dark One learned the bare minimum of the Snarl's existence and then his allies Loki, Tiamat, and Rat filled him in on all the details.

Is Loki really straightforwardly trying to do exactly what Thor would want done?

Is Rat really furious about the loss of Azure City?

Or do Loki, Tiamat, Rat, and the Dark One have some scheme of their own which Thor doesn't know about?

[warmachine]

Except that theory falls apart when you remember Loki voted to save the world. Talking to TDO would further that goal.

Also, i have nothing against "I think Loki is not being honest" theories, but I have yet to see one that included why he would not be honest.
Loki needs to delay the end of the world till Thor gets The Dark One into the Godsmoot and other inter-pantheon discussions. If Thor thinks his plan is within reach, he'll push against the resistance of the others to achieve this first step whereas, if the world is destroyed, Thor will think getting a new, unpopular god into an argument about the next world is a non-starter. When a neighbourhood is relatively peaceful, residents can be persuaded about something beneficial but disruptive. When the neighbourhood is in chaos, such persuasion is far harder because they all have their own pre-existing agendas they're trying to push.

[Peelee]

Loki needs to delay the end of the world till Thor gets The Dark One into the Godsmoot and other inter-pantheon discussions. If Thor thinks his plan is within reach, he'll push against the resistance of the others to achieve this first step whereas, if the world is destroyed, Thor will think getting a new, unpopular god into an argument about the next world is a non-starter. When a neighbourhood is relatively peaceful, residents can be persuaded about something beneficial but disruptive. When the neighbourhood is in chaos, such persuasion is far harder because they all have their own pre-existing agendas they're trying to push.

That all assumes TDO wont already get a say in the next world. A sentiment that TDO himself does not share.

[warmachine]

That all assumes TDO wont already get a say in the next world. A sentiment that TDO himself does not share.
Good point. Perhaps Thor is lying to Durkon out of desperation to prevent The Dark One getting his fair share in the next world building, but that's a strain. Perhaps The Dark One is lying to Redcloak but that's even less likely with a philosophy of "Goblinoids are brothers, don't trust others."

Still going with Loki is lying. But why? I got nothing.

[Mike Havran]

I find it intersting that TDO, Loki, Rat and Tiamat are enough to apply the quadruple quiddity on Snarl. Maybe they are conspiring to destroy one of the good-aligned planes before sealing Snarl again. That would explain why Loki is so intent on saving the world with Gates.

[Fyraltari]

I'm going with Loki lying. He is a trickster god, after all. His plan, along with other evil gods, is to get Thor to demand The Dark One's entrance into the Goodsmoot and other inter-pantheon discussions. Loki knows The Dark One won't agree to repairing the world prison without huge concessions that the other gods won't agree to, so the world prison will eventually fail. Thor and others will agree that The Dark One gets a quarter share of the next world prison to make it permanent. The Dark One gets to create the goblinoid races on a quarter of the world, which is better than what they have now. The other evil gods gets another world with the balance shifted more towards evil.

Evil is not one big happy family. The Dark One getting a better status for his gobbos means Loki's peole have a harder time gaining XP than before.

A more evil world does not translate to the Evil gods having a better situation. It mostly means there is yet another bastard to compete with.

A small price to pay for getting rid of the Snarl but I don't think Loki wants this world gone at all.

[godsflunky]

I find it intersting that TDO, Loki, Rat and Tiamat are enough to apply the quadruple quiddity on Snarl.

That is worth remembering.

[DaggerPen]

Neither. Dark One discovers Snarl, other gods tell him the deal, The Dark One cuts off contact. Easy peasy, nobody lies, everything lines up.

My interpretation as well. The Dark One found out about the Rifts on his own, confronted his allies about it, was told the basic details, got furious that something so important had been kept from him, cut off all lines of communication, and started work on his Plan. From Thor's perspective it still counts as him finding out on his own, as he found out about the Rift on his own and was (as I recall) told more details about it without Loki's involvement, so Thor is telling the truth, but Redcloak's recounting of those events is also accurate.

[warmachine]

That all assumes TDO wont already get a say in the next world. A sentiment that TDO himself does not share.
Another consideration is The Dark One's belief of co-building the next world is only stated by Redcloak and that may be mistaken or outdated. In #1143, Thor shows images of Northern gods hostile to The Dark One, suggesting Thor's beliefs come from primary sources and are more reliable. Worse, he mentions Southern gods' hostility due to recent events and anger of a previous ally, Rat. The Dark One may be blocked from co-building the next world after all, so Loki needs The Dark One's biggest enemy to push for the other side. Only Nixon could go to China.

So why would Loki want The Dark One co-building the next world? There'd be a pact to contain a common threat but, once done, peace will break down. At the very least, The Dark One, ascended due to goblinoid injustice and peace talk betrayal, will command the new goblinoids to never accept permanent peace with humanoids. A permanent source of military raiders for mortals to gain XP. Trick others into thinking that dealing with a troublemaker is a good idea? This is why you don't trust trickster gods.

Edit: there is a flaw in my scenario. Loki told Thor about the purple repair job when The Dark One first arrived, before the capture of Azure City ruined relationships, and The Dark One's co-building of the next world would be assumed at the time. At the time, there'd be no need to trick Thor with the idea of a repair job that would never happen. Unless that was an easier sell to stop a fight than a better rebuild of the world prison.

[martianmister]

I think Loki, Rat and Takhisis Tiamat are pulling off some scheme, and they're manipulating both the Dark One and other gods. Rat is not actually furious about Azure City, since he still supports Tsukiko with spells. Rat is also one of the gods worshipped by the Sapphire Guard, maybe he's somehow behind these "crusades?" Maybe he's the one who gave magic to these obviously evil paladins? And Tiamat, he has power over IFCC, how much power she got over them? Was the Oracle of Sunken Valley's prophecies part of her endgame? Did he sent the Ancient Black Dragon to Vaarsuvius for a more sinister reason? And what does that mean Hel and Hilgya's roles in this story, are they pawns of Loki, moving according to his whims? And if that's true, what is their endgame, using the Snarl's purple offspring as a weapon against other gods? Or else, are they, too, simple puppets, used by the ultimate player in this game of chess, the one with countless tentacles? Only time will tell.

[happyman]

In light of all of the information that has been revealed in the last few comics (yay, interesting exposition!), I went back and reread SoD to try to make sense of things. There's at least one more interesting contradiction that hasn't been brought up yet.


When the DO confronts the gods about why the Goblins were created as an XP fodder race, which god does he challenge on it? Marduk, that's who.

In fact, the dialog goes something like (I don't have my book with me)

DO: "You did this to us on purpose?"

Marduk: "Well, there are the rules about monster PCs!"

DO: "Those rules are crap, and you know it!"

Contrast this with comic 1143 where Thor claims that the Western Gods don't even believe in the Dark One's purple quiddity. If the scene occurred as shown in SoD, then Marduk would also have seen the DO's purple quiddity himself, and from a brief description I have found of the historically worshiped Marduk and the D&D version in Forgotten Realms, they whole Western Pantheon should know about it and believe in it.

If that confrontation about the purpose of the goblinoids happened as described in SoD were true, then the Western Pantheon should, by all reason, know about the new quiddity, and believe it. So either Thor is lying about most of the Western Pantheon's belief (for some reason), or the DO is lying about confronting Marduk about the status of goblins in the world.

I don't know which one it is, but it's a thread worth pulling at. I strongly tend to the DO lying in this case, though.

[DaggerPen]

In light of all of the information that has been revealed in the last few comics (yay, interesting exposition!), I went back and reread SoD to try to make sense of things. There's at least one more interesting contradiction that hasn't been brought up yet.


When the DO confronts the gods about why the Goblins were created as an XP fodder race, which god does he challenge on it? Marduk, that's who.

In fact, the dialog goes something like (I don't have my book with me)

DO: "You did this to us on purpose?"

Marduk: "Well, there are the rules about monster PCs!"

DO: "Those rules are crap, and you know it!"

Contrast this with comic 1143 where Thor claims that the Western Gods don't even believe in the Dark One's purple quiddity. If the scene occurred as shown in SoD, then Marduk would also have seen the DO's purple quiddity himself, and from a brief description I have found of the historically worshiped Marduk and the D&D version in Forgotten Realms, they whole Western Pantheon should know about it and believe in it.

If that confrontation about the purpose of the goblinoids happened as described in SoD were true, then the Western Pantheon should, by all reason, know about the new quiddity, and believe it. So either Thor is lying about most of the Western Pantheon's belief (for some reason), or the DO is lying about confronting Marduk about the status of goblins in the world.

I don't know which one it is, but it's a thread worth pulling at. I strongly tend to the DO lying in this case, though.


Oh, that is a good catch. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it's a plot hole/that TDO had that conversation with some other god and didn't bother to share who specifically, and Marduk was chosen as a placeholder, but that needs some 'splainin' for sure.

[happyman]

Oh, that is a good catch. I wouldn't rule out the possibility that it's a plot hole/that TDO had that conversation with some other god and didn't bother to share who specifically, and Marduk was chosen as a placeholder, but that needs some 'splainin' for sure.

Yeah, it's not firm enough to come to any solid conclusions. But many of the things shown in the crayons have essentially happened as described there, with only minor (if interesting) tweaks. A good example of something that did happen more or less as shown is the interaction between Thor, the DO, Loki, Rat and Tiamat. At a bare minimum, it got the involved characters correct. Comic 1143 is a direct reference to a crayon image, with only the relative positions of the involved parties changed. So, this jumped out at me.