Sorcadarnlock

[Crl1981]

Hello all! I am new to these forums and will be my first post!!

In my Campaign I am playing a Half-Elf Paladin (Oath of Redmption), currently 4th level. We rolled stats, and my rolls were incredible, I can multiclass anything. I am the ONLY frontliner of the group. It seems that everyone else is concentrating on AoE.

I am planning on hitting Paladin 6, then I want to diversify, and hopefully increase my single target damage since the party seems to have miniins on lockdown.

For my ASI I have already taken Combat Caster, it just seemed required.

Right now my plan is to go 5 levels in Bard (College of Swords), then 1 level of Warlock (Hexblade), and finish with Sorcerer (Draconic Bloodline).

The last 3 ASIs would be Charisma +2, Tough, and I haven’t figured the last one yet.

How does this look to everyone?

Thank You!

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

Honestly I don't see why you are going Bard for 5 levels. Personally I'd drop those in favor of going either hexblade to grab some short rest smite slots and eldritch smite. Or sorcerer to continue casting progression and get more sorcery points.

Here's how I'd do it. If my Strenth or dex is lowish, if they are decent then there really isn't a point to taking the hexblade unless your DM really likes short rests.

Levels 1-6: Paladin (Get your aura and second attack and second level Spells.)
Level 7-11: Hexblade (2 third level spell slots, 3 invocations, Eldritch smite, Charisma based attacking) (This is not required if you have decent attack stats it would be better to continue as a straight Sorcadin instead.)
Level 12-20: Sorcerer (you'll top out at 5th level spells, but have 7th level slots, and 9 SP)

[Aaedimus]

Multiclassing 3 classes will really hurt your spell progression, and Warlock even more because you're losing out on spell slot levels too. If you're only looking at the end product, keep in mind,

- what level do you start
- how high level will the campaign get
- how long will you be playing the character wishing you were at the level where all of your ideas click, and how rough will it be on the way there?

Personally, I'd leave the Warlock out of the picture, and if you're focused on multiclassing Sorcerer get your Paladin aura than run to max out those Metamagics and spell slots. 7 and 8 will be tough, but at level 9 you'd finally have twin or quicken spell, but from there on you'll be pretty useful.

If you really want bard instead, I'd stick with just that and not take Sorcerer at all.

Also the Draconic bloodline Sorcerer's big boon is not needing armor (you already have access to higher armor than it'd give you and the 1 HP/lvl isn't that big of a deal once you're already a level 6 Pali) I would go Divine or Shadow Sorcerer. They both increase survivability in different ways (don't drop to 0 to or pass the missed save) while giving you other cool bonuses as well.

[Crl1981]

Bard is on there to add Bardic Inspiration to my damage and AC, bringing that to 5th level so that they will recharge on a short rest.

Hexblade is there to move my melee stat to Charisma which is what I am focusing anyway, and to give me some sort of healing that doesn’t take am action. I also don’t see going any higher since I can upcast Eldritch Blast with Spellslots.

Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline is intended to give me that extra tick of health and eventually resistance.
I looked into Divine Soul but it looks kinda meh.

I am not seeing the high value in high lvl spells, unless I am missing something there isn’t much that is single target damage. Those high-level spell slots will be used as Sorcery pts or to upcast spells. With 8 sorcery points maxed that seems plenty to play with. At the end point I am still a 16th lvl Caster.


Thanks alot, agree or disagree this is helping a lot! I have tons of time before I hit a decision point so I am happy to point counter-point the options.

[Damon_Tor]

Hello all! I am new to these forums and will be my first post!!

In my Campaign I am playing a Half-Elf Paladin (Oath of Redmption), currently 4th level. We rolled stats, and my rolls were incredible, I can multiclass anything. I am the ONLY frontliner of the group. It seems that everyone else is concentrating on AoE.

I am planning on hitting Paladin 6, then I want to diversify, and hopefully increase my single target damage since the party seems to have miniins on lockdown.

For my ASI I have already taken Combat Caster, it just seemed required.

Right now my plan is to go 5 levels in Bard (College of Swords), then 1 level of Warlock (Hexblade), and finish with Sorcerer (Draconic Bloodline).

The last 3 ASIs would be Charisma +2, Tough, and I haven’t figured the last one yet.

How does this look to everyone?

Thank You!

It's difficult to reconcile your Oath of Redemption with your Pact. You're feeding the souls of the creatures you defeat to an extra-planar entity. That doesn't jive well with your oath, which at its core is about how everything can be redeemed. I would choose the Oath of Conquest or Oath of Vengeance instead.

EDIT: Rereading, it looks like you've already made your oath. Which is fine, it means you "fall" which in this edition just means becoming an Oathbreaker paladin, which doesn't actually cost you any power, it just makes your power different.

EDIT 2: Comparing my copy of Xanathar's to the UA article, it seems they've made the Hexblade Pact less obviously evil. No more reference to the weapon eating souls to get stronger, and the reference the Raven Queen using the hexblades and their warlocks to manipulate the mortal world to her own ends has been changed from a statement of fact to a "sages speculate" sort of a thing. So I suppose there's a bit more wiggle room here than I thought, but it would still make me very uncomfortable. If I were a paladin devoted to peace and rehabilitation, to whom violence is explicitly a last resort, would I really make a pact with an entity of dubious moral character in exchange for power in combat? Because improved combat abilities are all the Hexblade has to offer you, and while the ends for which it's using you have been changed from being overtly in contrast to your oath to "inscrutable purposes" I wouldn't take that chance. If you're deadset on keeping the Redemption Oath and picking up warlock levels, The Celestial is a much better choice for a patron. The archfey could also work, but it's not quite a slam dunk.

[Damon_Tor]

Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline is intended to give me that extra tick of health and eventually resistance.
I looked into Divine Soul but it looks kinda meh.

The extra "tick" of health only applies to those levels of sorcerer, not to any other levels. You'd be better served simply taking more levels of Paladin, because they have a bigger hit dice to begin with.

[Corran]

In my Campaign I am playing a Half-Elf Paladin (Oath of Redmption), currently 4th level.
...
I am the ONLY frontliner of the group. It seems that everyone else is concentrating on AoE.
...
the party seems to have miniins on lockdown.

For my ASI I have already taken Combat Caster, it just seemed required.

By combat caster I am assuming warcaster. I am also assuming you are S&B, since you are the only frontliner.
Due to what I quoted from your post, I would suggest taking 3 sorcerer levels asap, thus becoming paladin4/sorcerer3. You want booming blade (cantrip, combined with warcaster for strong OA's), gfb (another cantrip, to boost your dpr), shield and absorb elements (for extra tankiness), and finally blur (which along with protection from evil for when it applies) which will be your concentration bread and butter for the the forseeable future (eventually you can retrain it with better spells, assuming you carry on with your sorcerer progression, but it will serve you well in this party set up for many levels). After paladin4/sorc3 I would take 2 more paladin levels, thus becoming paladin6/sorc3. You want the extra attack for when you want to go nova against a boss, and aura of protection has very strong benefits even without not having allies in its radius. After that (ie pal6/sorc3) there are many things that you can do, but paladin6/sorc5 is another good breakpoint for character level 11.

Bottom line, if you are the only frontliner and your party is already focusing on field control, your #1 priority is to boost up your tankiness since you will be on the other end of the vast majority of the blows. Hope that helps.

[Crl1981]

By combat caster I am assuming warcaster. I am also assuming you are S&B, since you are the only frontliner.
Due to what I quoted from your post, I would suggest taking 3 sorcerer levels asap, thus becoming paladin4/sorcerer3. You want booming blade (cantrip, combined with warcaster for strong OA's), gfb (another cantrip, to boost your dpr), shield and absorb elements (for extra tankiness), and finally blur (which along with protection from evil for when it applies) which will be your concentration bread and butter for the the forseeable future (eventually you can retrain it with better spells, assuming you carry on with your sorcerer progression, but it will serve you well in this party set up for many levels). After paladin4/sorc3 I would take 2 more paladin levels, thus becoming paladin6/sorc3. You want the extra attack for when you want to go nova against a boss, and aura of protection has very strong benefits even without not having allies in its radius. After that (ie pal6/sorc3) there are many things that you can do, but paladin6/sorc5 is another good breakpoint for character level 11.

Bottom line, if you are the only frontliner and your party is already focusing on field control, your #1 priority is to boost up your tankiness since you will be on the other end of the vast majority of the blows. Hope that helps.

This helps a lot actually, reviewing your pts and the spells you mentioned I get to bandaid two attacks per round as well as increase my AC, something that has been eating me. Getting hit on 23-28s with an AC of 20. ;(

[Crl1981]

Question on cantrips, when it says something like “on 5th level gain XXXX.” Is that Character level, Caster level, or Class level? My gut interpretation says Caster level.

[Kharneth]

I believe that those mean character level. Caster level is out and other abilities will specify "levels in this class."

[Aimeryan]

It's difficult to reconcile your Oath of Redemption with your Pact. You're feeding the souls of the creatures you defeat to an extra-planar entity. That doesn't jive well with your oath, which at its core is about how everything can be redeemed. I would choose the Oath of Conquest or Oath of Vengeance instead.

EDIT: Rereading, it looks like you've already made your oath. Which is fine, it means you "fall" which in this edition just means becoming an Oathbreaker paladin, which doesn't actually cost you any power, it just makes your power different.

EDIT 2: Comparing my copy of Xanathar's to the UA article, it seems they've made the Hexblade Pact less obviously evil. No more reference to the weapon eating souls to get stronger, and the reference the Raven Queen using the hexblades and their warlocks to manipulate the mortal world to her own ends has been changed from a statement of fact to a "sages speculate" sort of a thing. So I suppose there's a bit more wiggle room here than I thought, but it would still make me very uncomfortable. If I were a paladin devoted to peace and rehabilitation, to whom violence is explicitly a last resort, would I really make a pact with an entity of dubious moral character in exchange for power in combat? Because improved combat abilities are all the Hexblade has to offer you, and while the ends for which it's using you have been changed from being overtly in contrast to your oath to "inscrutable purposes" I wouldn't take that chance. If you're deadset on keeping the Redemption Oath and picking up warlock levels, The Celestial is a much better choice for a patron. The archfey could also work, but it's not quite a slam dunk.

As you mention in your second edit, there isn't really any mention of Evil being involved. As for the Raven Queen (who may or may not be involved), she is a Neutral entity.

In 4e lore she focused on ensuring souls do not remain on the Material Plane after they die, such as by becoming beings of Undeath. Since Undead are Evil, you could very much claim her followers express Good by taking out Evil entities.

In 5e there isn't much lore to go on, and it is unknown if 4e lore still is in play. This is what is known (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?551777-Mike-Mearls-talks-about-the-Raven-Queen). It is unknown what she does with the souls she takes interest in, besides sending some back to the Material Plane to find greatness.

In any case, there is no mention of you specifically feeding her souls. Any creature you kill that has a soul she could theoretically then get hold of that soul, but this is true whether or not you accept power from her. It doesn't seem that there is any RAW that making of her your Patron does anything to further Evil. She gives you a tool - how you use it is up to you.

[Damon_Tor]

As you mention in your second edit, there isn't really any mention of Evil being involved. As for the Raven Queen (who may or may not be involved), she is a Neutral entity.

In 4e lore she focused on ensuring souls do not remain on the Material Plane after they die, such as by becoming beings of Undeath. Since Undead are Evil, you could very much claim her followers express Good by taking out Evil entities.

In 5e there isn't much lore to go on, and it is unknown if 4e lore still is in play. This is what is known (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?551777-Mike-Mearls-talks-about-the-Raven-Queen). It is unknown what she does with the souls she takes interest in, besides sending some back to the Material Plane to find greatness.

In any case, there is no mention of you specifically feeding her souls. Any creature you kill that has a soul she could theoretically then get hold of that soul, but this is true whether or not you accept power from her. It doesn't seem that there is any RAW that making of her your Patron does anything to further Evil. She gives you a tool - how you use it is up to you.

The problem is, the motivations are unknown. What does the Hexblade, and by extension, the Raven Queen, gain from the relationship? She wouldn't give him power and ask nothing in return. So the DM and the player have to work out between themselves the nature of the pact, which is a tall order.

[Crl1981]

I look at “classes” mechanically, and insert my own thematics. My character will always call himself a Paladin of Lathander. Going mechanically sorcerer means he is taking a more caster aspect to the thematic Paladin, if I take Hexblade it is Lathander that is empowering his weapon not the Raven Queen.

[Kharneth]

I look at “classes” mechanically, and insert my own thematics. My character will always call himself a Paladin of Lathander. Going mechanically sorcerer means he is taking a more caster aspect to the thematic Paladin, if I take Hexblade it is Lathander that is empowering his weapon not the Raven Queen.

That's fun! I am in a similar boat, here. I'm starting out as a Paladin, but my character is foremost a Sorcerer and he'll be dipping into some Warlock levels, too. But the Paladin and Warlock aspects are re-tailored to fit within the Sorcerer's theme.

[Citan]

Hello all! I am new to these forums and will be my first post!!

In my Campaign I am playing a Half-Elf Paladin (Oath of Redmption), currently 4th level. We rolled stats, and my rolls were incredible, I can multiclass anything. I am the ONLY frontliner of the group. It seems that everyone else is concentrating on AoE.

I am planning on hitting Paladin 6, then I want to diversify, and hopefully increase my single target damage since the party seems to have miniins on lockdown.

For my ASI I have already taken Combat Caster, it just seemed required.

Right now my plan is to go 5 levels in Bard (College of Swords), then 1 level of Warlock (Hexblade), and finish with Sorcerer (Draconic Bloodline).

The last 3 ASIs would be Charisma +2, Tough, and I haven’t figured the last one yet.

How does this look to everyone?

Thank You!


Bard is on there to add Bardic Inspiration to my damage and AC, bringing that to 5th level so that they will recharge on a short rest.

Hexblade is there to move my melee stat to Charisma which is what I am focusing anyway, and to give me some sort of healing that doesn’t take am action. I also don’t see going any higher since I can upcast Eldritch Blast with Spellslots.

Sorcerer Draconic Bloodline is intended to give me that extra tick of health and eventually resistance.
I looked into Divine Soul but it looks kinda meh.

I am not seeing the high value in high lvl spells, unless I am missing something there isn’t much that is single target damage. Those high-level spell slots will be used as Sorcery pts or to upcast spells. With 8 sorcery points maxed that seems plenty to play with. At the end point I am still a 16th lvl Caster.


Thanks alot, agree or disagree this is helping a lot! I have tons of time before I hit a decision point so I am happy to point counter-point the options.
Hey ;)

So, disclaimer, I'm a bit frustrated of multiclass limitations because I usually play with point-buy, so obviously I'll have a biaised view...

But I'm totally on the "go wild with multiclass" side! o/

From your starting point though, if you stay up to 4 classes, I'd really suggest swapping Draconic for either Divine Soul (5 levels) or Shadow (6 levels).
That extra hp won't do you much good at higher levels to be honest.
Nothing at least that wouldn't be completely offset by an Aid from Divine Soul for example, or by successfully applying a Slow/Hold thanks to Shadow Hound.

For a 4-class, a nice mid-career split could be Bard 2 / Warlock 2 / Sorcerer 3 / Paladin 3 (more offense/utility) or Paladin 6 / Bard 1 / Sorcerer 3 (more defense and still metamagics).

An end-goal that seems great to me would be Paladin 7 (Aura + take damage for others) + Swords Bard 5 + Divine Soul Sorcerer 5 + Hexblade Tome Warlock 3
Paladin: Bless, Wrathful Smite, Command, Compelled Duel, whatever else you like.
Bard: Healing Words, Silence (swapped later), Heat Metal, Enhance Ability, Catnap, whatever else you like.
Sorcerer: Aid, Spirit Guardians, Counterspell, Warding Bond, Absorb Elements, Chromatic Orb or Spiritual Weapon, Extend and Quicken metamagics. Booming Blade, whatever else.
Warlock: Eldricht Blast, Invocation Ritual, Repelling Blast, Shield, Armor of Agathys, extra cantrips Thorns Whip, Guidance, whatever.

You'll be very resilient thanks to Shield + Absorb Elements + Extended upcast Aid so you can take much damage in stead of teammates.
You will compliment that with push/pull effects with cantrips to keep enemies away from friends and closer to you (with possibly Command/Compelled Duel).
You will alleviate your caster friends's need to keep rituals or utility spells, because you can poach many of them in your book.
You will have many answers to any situations thanks to cantrips.
You will help allies win any check thanks to Enhance Ability, Bless/Guidance and Bardic Inspiration.
You will FRIGGING ROCK HARD.

Now with that said...
If you really can multiclass into anything, here is food for thought still on idea to help others.
Paladin 6. That won't change.
Nature Cleric 6: great "halve elemental as a reaction" OR Life Cleric 3 (just for heal bonus -I'll pick that rather).
Shepherd Druid 3: Pass Without Trace, aura, Healing Spirit (stupidly efficient with Life Cleric's bonus, crazy mindblowing good with Extend on top).
Evoker Wizard 3: ability to blow yourself without blowing yourself? Does seem redundant with your party, but had to put it there. Otherwise you could still go with Bladesinger: extra AC and concentration for tougher fights. ;)
Rogue 2: Cunning Action is always good.
Divine Soul Sorcerer 3: doesn't change.
You are stuck with only level 2 spells (mostly) so stacking all this would be overall less efficient, apart from healing obviously. If you want to pick a crazy-multiclass challenge though, it will still be a good enough character at high level, although not "fight MVPing" material.

[Crl1981]

Ok, from the feedback and discussions here it looks like my shorterm progression plan is Paladin 4 - Sorcerer 5, I’ll drop Bard altogether, 5 levels all together to get 5x d8s added to damage and armor per short rest apparently doesn’t justify Bard. I am waivering on the question of a level of Divine Sword of Lathander (Hexblade), the question remains now what kind of Sorcerer?

Divine Soul - +2d4 to a failed check once per short rest, Cleric Spells as Sorcerer spells, and at 6th level spend sorcery pts to re-roll healing dice

Or

Draconic - +1 hp per Sorcerer level, Fluent in Draconic, and at 6th level add Charisma to elemental damage (probably fire) and I can spend a sorcery pt to gain resistance to elemental damage.

With either of those gain wings at lvl 14...

Not sure which would be better.

[Damon_Tor]

Ok, from the feedback and discussions here it looks like my shorterm progression plan is Paladin 4 - Sorcerer 5, I’ll drop Bard altogether, 5 levels all together to get 5x d8s added to damage and armor per short rest apparently doesn’t justify Bard. I am waivering on the question of a level of Divine Sword of Lathander (Hexblade), the question remains now what kind of Sorcerer?

Divine Soul - +2d4 to a failed check once per short rest, Cleric Spells as Sorcerer spells, and at 6th level spend sorcery pts to re-roll healing dice

Or

Draconic - +1 hp per Sorcerer level, Fluent in Draconic, and at 6th level add Charisma to elemental damage (probably fire) and I can spend a sorcery pt to gain resistance to elemental damage.

With either of those gain wings at lvl 14...

Not sure which would be better.

Having unrestricted access to another spell list is huge. Access to the spell Contagion alone makes Divine Soul the clear winner IMO. Cast Contagion as a Minor Action, bam, double damage or permastun (your choice) for at LEAST three rounds, and that's if they get SUPER lucky on their saves or blow every use of Legendary Resistance on shaking it off. Easily one of the best uses of a level 5 slot in the game.

As for Draconic Ancestry, it's pretty meh. +1 HP per sorcerer level is just going to mean, at most, 16 more HP when you get to level 20. Turning a failed save into a made save at that level will regularly save you more HP than 16 at that point, and will save you from all kinds of terrible conditions to boot. Resistance is nigh-pointless: you'll want to be using Absorb Elements when you get hit by those effects anyway.