Bard subclass help!

[Sneakasnuggle]

I am rolling my first Bard and am struggling on a subclass. We currently have a light cleric, assassin rogue and Samurai fighter. (Once we get to level 3)

I was thinking of going lore to add magic to our group, but with 2 support characters I'm worried we may kill things a little slow.

So im thinking of going sword or valor instead and wondered what if any tips y'all could give.

[nickl_2000]

What sounds the most fun to play to you?

The truth is with that party you could play any bard and be effective. Lore Bard gives a silly amount of options in the long run, Sword/Valor will help the party in combat more. Seriously any would be fun, it's all about what sounds the most fun to you.

[Sneakasnuggle]

I like the idea of lore and swords. Truthfully I would like to be able to help out more on combat with damage, but have the option to debuff when needed or on the big bad guys.

[Aaedimus]

I wouldn't worry about killing things slow. I'd pick my bard dependant on how the Cleric plays. Does he buff, control, gish, tank, or 'shudders' heal?

Your bard could be great at control, which in that kindof team is a must. You're actually the best character to fill that role. If the Cleric already does that (or plans to) instead of buffing or gishing, it depends on the type of game. I'd personally focus on the out of combat utility for a generic D&D game and go lore bard. If you're playing somewhere like adventures league and it's pretty much nothing but miniature warfare, I would focus on blasting or gishing.

[nickl_2000]

I like the idea of lore and swords. Truthfully I would like to be able to help out more on combat with damage, but have the option to debuff when needed or on the big bad guys.

Then Valor or Swords sounds the best for you. Both of them can deal some decent damage in combat and buff/debuff as necessary.

Valor - You can boost your own and other players damage. This would work really well if for you rogue friend's assassinate ability. You also get shields as well.
Sword - You get a fighting style and flourishes that will up your weapon damage more than valor and give you other special things.

[Specter]

The main value of Valor is not the Extra Attack (though it can be), but armor and shield proficiency.

A Lore Bard with studded leather and 14 DEX will have 14AC, whereas a Valor Bard with Half Plate and a shield will have 19AC. That AC will help you survive longer and keep your concentration on spells.

It's up to you to decide if you want to get more magical secrets or more survivability. In your group, I'd personally go for Valor.

[Guy Lombard-O]

The main value of Valor is not the Extra Attack (though it can be), but armor and shield proficiency.

A Lore Bard with studded leather and 14 DEX will have 14AC, whereas a Valor Bard with Half Plate and a shield will have 19AC. That AC will help you survive longer and keep your concentration on spells.

It's up to you to decide if you want to get more magical secrets or more survivability. In your group, I'd personally go for Valor.

I'd second this. When I played my Valor bard (this was before Swords came out, but I'd still stick with Valor anyhow), I found that my main value came from my concentration-required battlefield control spells. The extra armor and shield meant that I had some chance of surviving combat without losing concentration every round or two. If your DM turns out anything like mine, simply hiding in the rear can often be a losing strategy (think ranged weapons, smart foes whacking the squishy casters first, ambush-traps with attacks from the rear). So the extra AC turned out to be vital. Plus, it's a lot of fun buffing your party with combat inspiration!

P.S. For those big bad guys you're worried about? Take Heat Metal - it just wrecks the enemy's tank!

Also, I wouldn't worry quite as much about inflicting damage as you seem to be. All three of your party members can do that pretty well already (Light cleric gets lots of decent AoEs like Burning Hands and Fireball, and that Channel Divinity 2d10 friendly-fire blast). So think more about control spells and being a second-string combat guy, without worrying about spamming out much actual damage. And have some fun - Bards are super-fun to play!

[Man_Over_Game]

A formula I've used to best assist my team is by focusing on the melee-range ratio of your team while making sure there's enough healers.

There should be 1 more melee character than ranged characters. I like to do it based off of this system:

If you're melee, add the sum by +1.
If you're ranged, subtract the sum by -1.
If you're not sure, the value is 0.
The end goal should be +1.

It's kinda hard to tell what your team's outfit is, though, based off of the classes provided. Samurai is almost definitely melee, and the Assassin is probably ranged, but a Light Cleric can go both ways (but is probably 50/50 or ranged). Even a Valor Bard is only a substitute for a heavy melee character (like a Barbarian), so I'd say it's worth about half of a solid melee character (for a +0.5).

So if the Samurai is Melee (+1),
The Assassin is Ranged (-1),
The Light Cleric is Both (0),
Then the best option is probably the Valor/Sword Bard (+0.5),
Which gets you a sum of about +0.5, which is nearly perfect.

Next thing to determine is the number of healers you need. A good ratio is 1 healer to every 3 characters. Paladins, some bards, and Moon druids are all considered about 1/2 of a healer for this calculation, just to get an idea. A Sword Bard provides virtually no healing, but a Valor Bard makes a solid half-healer.

If your Light Cleric is prioritizing healing, then you could probably go as a Sword Bard, which has some decent emphasis on damage.
The Valor Bard is tankier and has some defensive options, so it'd be a much better option if your Light Cleric isn't healing much.

If your Samurai was a Paladin, or your Light Cleric was a Life Cleric, I'd say you'd be safe to be a Sword Bard, but with this team's low survivability, I'd recommend improving that by playing a Valor Bard.

[wilhelmdubdub]

If you take lore, go with spiritual weapon, attack with bonus, and use your inspiration dice for cutting words as a reaction.

[Sneakasnuggle]

Thank you all. I am starting to love the idea of valor Bard. It sounds like I can tank, do decent damage and cc/ battlefield control if I need to.

[Keravath]

Personally, I like the lore bard with a two level hexblade warlock multiclass. It delays the bard spell progression a bit but offers a lot (at least in my opinion) which covers some of the weaker aspects of the bard. Lore bards are also amazing at skills.

[dgnslyr]

Lore is really, really strong and versatile. Cutting Words is a lot better than it looks, if you consider fights with fewer enemies than allies; one dice ends up affecting a larger percentage of the total enemy force. Magical secrets are fantastic, too, and good for filling any gap in your party lineup. Spells are the most powerful and versatile resources in the game, and having more of them only makes you stronger.

Also, having Expertise in Athletics makes you really, really good at grappling. If you ever find yourself in close quarters and need someone to bugger off, you can attempt to knock someone over by making an opposed Athletics check, which you'll probably win if you have double proficiency in it.

[Sneakasnuggle]

Keravath, how do you play it with hexblade, use Eldritch blast as your main dps?

The grapple Bard looks fun as hell for a one shot. But how do you grapple a dragon haha

[SunderedWorldDM]

Keravath, how do you play it with hexblade, use Eldritch blast as your main dps?

The grapple Bard looks fun as hell for a one shot. But how do you grapple a dragon haha

Ever heard of a little spell called 'enlarge/reduce'?

[Sneakasnuggle]

OMG that sounds hilarious.

[nickl_2000]

OMG that sounds hilarious.

Just don't do it while they are in the air, else you will go crashing to the ground with the Dragon!

[Khegg]

I'm also rolling a Lore Bard for the first time. Thankfully, my party has agreed to start at lvl 3.

My first question is, is it smarter to take a Feat at 4, or push my CHA from 17 to 19?

Secondly, if I take a Feat, do I take anything other than Magic Initiate?

My party will have a rogue, druid, pally, and wizard (so most bases covered). Are there any solid Ranger/Cleric/Warlock spell combos to take using MI in this case?

[Keravath]

Keravath, how do you play it with hexblade, use Eldritch blast as your main dps?

The grapple Bard looks fun as hell for a one shot. But how do you grapple a dragon haha

One of the biggest issues with a bard, I find, is a lack of DPS and something to do on turns when you don't cast a spell. Vicious Mockery doesn't cut it in my experience (I once played in a party with four bards ... and the number of ineffective vicious mockery cantrips being cast was hilarious).

When playing a lore bard/hexblade spells are the usual go to for actions depending on the situation ... Eldritch blast is the fallback ranged damage support. I play in AL so the character isn't specialized. (7th level bard, 2nd level hexblade)

Spells from bard are:
Mag Hand
Minor Illusion
Vicious Mockery

Healing word
Dissonant whispers
Faerie fire

Suggestion
Phantasmal force
Shatter or Heat Metal
Blindness/Deafness

Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Fireball
Hypnotic Pattern

Polymorph

Warlock spells
Eldritch Blast
Prestidigitation

Charm Person
Hex
Shield

Spell slots: 6 3 3 1

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I started variant human and took resilient constitution since a bard really needs constitution saves for the number of concentration spells they cast. I also started as a first level warlock to get the wisdom save instead of dex.

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Hexblade offers proficiency with medium armor and shields as well as all martial weapons. Charisma to be used for attack rolls so I don't need to boost dex if I want to use a weapon. Hexblades curse is a useful bonus in a boss fight. Two first level short rest spell slots which is very useful. Invocations (in my case devil's sight - to compensate for being human - and agonizing blast for the ranged DPS).

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This lets you still get 9th level spells and 18th level magical secrets if the character plays that long. If these aren't important or I wanted a more melee oriented character, I might look at Swords or Valor bard or a 5 level bladelock dip for thirsting blade.

However, I really like the cutting words on a lore bard since it can save you or some of your party members from some nasty hits.

For a bard, eldritch+agonizing blast is likely to significantly outperform most of the melee options from a damage perspective.

[nickl_2000]

I'm also rolling a Lore Bard for the first time. Thankfully, my party has agreed to start at lvl 3.

My first question is, is it smarter to take a Feat at 4, or push my CHA from 17 to 19?

Secondly, if I take a Feat, do I take anything other than Magic Initiate?

My party will have a rogue, druid, pally, and wizard (so most bases covered). Are there any solid Ranger/Cleric/Warlock spell combos to take using MI in this case?

There are many, many choices that you can take at level 4 depending on your play style and your other stats. If you have another odd score, going ASI Charisma and something else would be useful. If not, resilient Con or Warcaster is great. Or look at the feats that boost charisma (actor or a racial feat from X's). If you don't like that, inspiring leader is an awesome feat for you as well.

[Keravath]

I'm also rolling a Lore Bard for the first time. Thankfully, my party has agreed to start at lvl 3.

My first question is, is it smarter to take a Feat at 4, or push my CHA from 17 to 19?

Secondly, if I take a Feat, do I take anything other than Magic Initiate?

My party will have a rogue, druid, pally, and wizard (so most bases covered). Are there any solid Ranger/Cleric/Warlock spell combos to take using MI in this case?

Resilient con? Making constitution saves is required to maintain concentration on your spells and many bard spells require concentration. Locking down half your opponents with hypnotic pattern stops working if you get hit and fail a save.

As a lore bard, warcaster is less useful since you won't have your hands full with a weapon and shield. One of the key reasons folks need warcaster is to allow spell casting while both hands are full.

I'm not sure that Magic Initiate really offers that much since the cantrips that are most useful (like guidance) are probably covered by the rest of your party. With a 17 cha, if you are an elf, you could consider elven accuracy as a feat or actor. Either way since your cha is odd you will either be splitting an ASI between two stats or taking a half feat to boost the last one. For most bard builds, especially lore, since your spell DC is directly dependent on cha ... getting your cha maxed is usually a priority ... so I would go with something that increases cha or give con save proficiency over magic initiate.

[Man_Over_Game]

Resilient con? Making constitution saves is required to maintain concentration on your spells and many bard spells require concentration. Locking down half your opponents with hypnotic pattern stops working if you get hit and fail a save.

As a lore bard, warcaster is less useful since you won't have your hands full with a weapon and shield. One of the key reasons folks need warcaster is to allow spell casting while both hands are full.

I'm not sure that Magic Initiate really offers that much since the cantrips that are most useful (like guidance) are probably covered by the rest of your party. With a 17 cha, if you are an elf, you could consider elven accuracy as a feat or actor. Either way since your cha is odd you will either be splitting an ASI between two stats or taking a half feat to boost the last one. For most bard builds, especially lore, since your spell DC is directly dependent on cha ... getting your cha maxed is usually a priority ... so I would go with something that increases cha or give con save proficiency over magic initiate.

I'm not a huge fan of Resilience, but in this case, I think it'd be a lot better to just tack on one level of Sorcerer at level 1, get Charisma and Constitution saving throws, pick up a sorcerer trait that suits you, and go the rest of the way as Bard. It saves you a feat and doesn't really put you behind in power or anything. If you need some extra OOMPH to your saving throws, go Divine Soul and never fail your concentration saves again.

[Sneakasnuggle]

Keravath i think i'm going to go lore at 3 and hexblade at lvl 4. I did not realize E Blast scaled with character level! That will give me a little bit of dps when i really don't want to blow a spell slot!

[Citan]

Completely forgot to throw my opinion in that thread, but you made one of the best possible choices anyways so... :)

I'd just actually consider grabbing the Warlock level earlier IF you have trouble surviving fights. The immediate +3 AC + ability to use one Shield per short rest would do much good in that department.
So in that regard, maybe getting it as soon as character level 2 may be worth.

In an opposite manner, as long as your party works well enough for you to stay alive and keep concentration, I'd suggest you push away the Warlock dip as much as you can. Eldricht Blast (especially without invocations) is completely uninteresting until you get at least 2 rays, and more reasonably 3 rays. In the same view, having more utility cantrips is nice but you can also do without.
So unless you really *really* need one feature of Warlock for whatever reason, I wouldn't pick it until I got first...
- Short-rest Bardic Inspiration (often underrated, Cutting Words is great)
- 3rd level spells (Catnap and Leomund's Tiny Hut recommended)
- Magic Secrets (Counterspell! Invaluable for your party, and I'd also suggest Conjure Animals which is among the top three spells of all games imo)
- 4th level spells (Polymorph or Greater Invisibility)

Have fun! :)